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Call for retaliation - Page 8

post #281 of 303
On our tax dollars, radioactive depleted uranium shells and ammunition have allegedly been used by the IDF against the Gazan people. Official studies indicate that DU "poses little health risk". Of course they do.. this material is provided to weapons manufacturers free, a very cost effective way of disposing of hazardous waste whilst providing the most effective armor piercing rounds. More independent studies (ie those undertaken outside of the military and arms industry) suggest links between DU rounds and cancer . Another interesting aspect of this subject discussed here.. DU rounds are for armor piercing, as in taking out enemy tanks and other vehicles and defense installations. Hamas does not have the type of military hardware that DU rounds are designed to penetrate anyway... I wonder how long is it going to take before newborn babies in Gaza start exhibiting the appalling deformities as seen in children in Southern Iraq (especially in and around Basra), and in Afghanistan? I do find it hard to reconcile that these images are a result of eating too much hummus and olives in their diets.

It looks as if the Israeli effort to "wipe out Hamas" killed 95 combatants. They did, however, succeed in destroying large parts of the civilian infrastructure of Gaza, while at the same time killing at least 1,300 civilians and wounding at least 6,000. That isactually better than standard fare for Israeli combatant:civilian ratio in recent conflicts.

Perhaps Obama might have something sensible and balanced to say about all this, as of tomorrow. I have my doubts.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #282 of 303
Oh god here we go again. The whole DU lie. Ignorance abounds on the internet.

[the chorus]Linky? Linky? Prove to those of us that have little more than a high school education that DU is not dangerous.[/the chorus]
post #283 of 303
Arabs: Israel ammo in Gaza had depleted uranium

Quote:
Arab nations accused Israel on Monday of blasting Gaza with ammunition containing depleted uranium and urged the International Atomic Energy Agency to investigate reports that traces of it had been found in victims of the shelling.

In a letter on behalf of Arab ambassadors accredited in Austria, Prince Mansour Al-Saoud, the Saudi Ambassador, expressed "our deep concern regarding the information ... that traces of depleted uranium have been found in Palestinian victims."

A final draft of the letter was made available to The Associated Press on Monday. It urgently requested IAEA Director General Mohamed ElBaradei to "carry out a radiological and physical assessment in order to verify the presence of depleted uranium in the weaponry used by Israel ... in the Gaza Strip."

Officials at the Israeli mission to the IAEA said they were in no position to comment without having seen the letter.

IAEA spokeswoman Melissa Fleming confirmed receipt of the letter and said a response might be issued later in the day.

The letter which spoke of "medical and media sources" as the origin of its allegations appeared to be alluding to health concerns related to depleted uranium but the effects of exposure to the substance are unclear.

Depleted uranium is often found in bullets and tank shells due to its high density. It has been a problem in Iraq for more than a while due to the United States' use of depleted uranium in it's own tank shells. It is not a huge surprise.
post #284 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Oh god here we go again. The whole DU lie. Ignorance abounds on the internet.

[the chorus]Linky? Linky? Prove to those of us that have little more than a high school education that DU is not dangerous.[/the chorus]

How many more linkies would you like? I gave two from current science, with rather different possible conclusions. In other words, it is a disputed subject.

C'mon now. Just because the Pentagon says that its "safe" means absolutely nothing. There is peer reviewed science on both sides of the issue here. Anyway, even if it is safe and free from causing ill effects, the Pentagon has a very poor track record regarding honesty, openness and accountability. It kinda goes with the territory. It was only a few months ago (for example) that the existence of Gulf War Syndrome was officially acknowledged, despite the glaring evidence that 10s of thousand of service people are suffering, in many cases to the point of severe debilitation, from something contracted during that war. (I am not saying here that DU is *the* cause of Gulf War Syndrome - it *may* be a contributing factor however. One day, maybe we will know. Just maybe.. I hold little hope of course).

[general rant] And yes, it is very tempting for many to ignore the fact that politics, influence, and the motivation (need?) to maintain status quo tend to trample scientific integrity and impartiality, especially in the areas of protecting vested interests, or regarding inquiry and investigations into criminal activities of corrupt officials. We all know it, we can't be so naive; none of us here were "born yesterday". If one's only defense of evil and corruption is by joining the legions of cowards and weasels by sheltering under an "accountability haven" of "conspiracy theorists accusations" in the hope of maintaining a degree of comfortability, then all constructive conversation ceases... (and the framework for human civilized conduct gets bent way out of shape).

Nothing is about to suddenly change, because we're talking about human nature here.. thats all. We all qualify in that area. Really.[/general rant]
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #285 of 303
I read a communist "Modus Operandi" manual once, it was a lengthy tome - one of the things they recommended was character assassination by repeatedly claiming the target was mentally infirm.

Apparently, everyone is afraid of and fears mental illness, therefore the quickest way to divert attention from their 'message' was for a mass call of mental illness.

Its heartening to know that communism is alive and well in the land of freedom and integrity, the US of A
post #286 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

I read a communist "Modus Operandi" manual once, it was a lengthy tome - one of the things they recommended was character assassination by repeatedly claiming the target was mentally infirm.

Apparently, everyone is afraid of and fears mental illness, therefore the quickest way to divert attention from their 'message' was for a mass call of mental illness.

Its heartening to know that communism is alive and well in the land of freedom and integrity, the US of A

Bush and Cheney absolutely do not need any character assassination. They committed character seppuku through the outright lack of morals and judgment with regard to their policy decisions and lies.
post #287 of 303
Quote:
Tony Benn accuses the BBC ON AIR of capitulating to the Israeli Government by refusing to air an appeal for the Gazan people by the Disaster Emergency Commitee (DEC) he then broadcasts the Address himself much to the consternation of the interviewer!

Seems Tony Benn kicks 18 types of arse before his first cup of tea.

He seems to be a fascinating, complicated man, not always right, but he seems to have been right more than he's been wrong.

Quote:
In 2001 Benn retired from Parliament, in his words to "spend more time involved in politics"



Oh, and if you missed it support DEC's Gazan relief by donating here.
post #288 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

How many more linkies would you like? I gave two from current science, with rather different possible conclusions. In other words, it is a disputed subject.

Actually it's not disputed. Unless you're a dead ender of some kind.

Take the word of the Health Physicist Society. Unless you think an organization of scientists are in the pocket of the pentegon.

Linky

Quote:
quotey

In general, natural U and DU are considered chemical health hazards, rather than radiation
hazards. The exception is the case where DU is inhaled in the form of tiny insoluble particles,
which lodge in the lungs and remain there for very long times. DU is less of a radiation hazard
than natural U because it is less radioactive than natural U. Direct (external) radiation from DU
is very low and only of concern to workers who melt and cast U metal.

...

In summary, some minor health problems have been observed following exposure to DU, but
ONLY with high levels of exposure. Exposures to airborne DU or to contaminated soil following
military use are not known to cause any observable health or reproductive effects.

But of course I know politics of trumpeting DU as type of genocidal poison is too tempting for the left.

Carry on.
post #289 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Actually it's not disputed. Unless you're a dead ender of some kind.

Take the word of the Health Physicist Society. Unless you think an organization of scientists are in the pocket of the pentegon.

From the pdf you linkied...

Quote:
Since its formation in 1956, the Society has grown to
approximately 6,000 scientists, physicians, engineers, lawyers, and other professionals
representing academia, industry, government, national laboratories, the Department of Defense,
and other organizations.

Quote:
But of course I know politics of trumpeting DU as type of genocidal poison is too tempting for the left.

Carry on.

DU or not, these are weapons from the start. They kill. But carry on defending genocide, which many of you righties do.
post #290 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

But carry on defending genocide, which many of you righties do.

At the least, if they're "liberals" according to Coulter.
post #291 of 303
Quote:
Tony Benn accuses the BBC ON AIR of capitulating to the Israeli Government by refusing to air an appeal for the Gazan people by the Disaster Emergency Commitee (DEC) he then broadcasts the Address himself much to the consternation of the interviewer!

The BBC is funded by the UK taxpayers, and under the relevant UK laws, political, religious and ideological impartiality is written into their charter. I have followed the BBC versions of the Israel-Gaza fiasco (in addition to the embarassing MEMRI filtered/fabricated versions dished out by the US press), and guess what... that BBC has come down firmly on the side of the Israelis every time... not quite as blatant as in the US corporate media, but noticeably so nonetheless. Media from all over the rest of the world has been much more even-handed.

I have read the BBC output a lot, especially since the Bush Administration took office.In that period the BBC has taken a consistently one-sided position, falling in lockstep with neoconservative policy makers from the US/UK governments on a number of high profile occasions, to the point of grossly misleading readers/viewers/listeners. Such incidents include the Blair government's fabricated "45 minute launch capability" BS re. Iraq's alleged WMDs, the 7/7 attacks of 2005, the police murder of Jean Charles de Menezes, the death of bioweapons scientist David Kelly, the suspension of free speech in the vicinity of the UK Parliament, underreporting attendance at antiwar rallies... the list goes on and on. And the one man who was a moderating influence n the BBC, the hugely popular director general Greg "Cut the Crap" Dyke was fired because he didn't toe the Blush-Blair line regarding the fabrications and lies about Iraqi WMDs as promoted by the Blair administration.

The BBC deserves to be shut down, as of now. They have become a clone of the (Sovietized) US Corporate Media Weasel Brigade, promoting corruption and lies by officialdom. And to add insult to injury, the hapless British public are funding them.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #292 of 303
In regard to the DU debate, I'm not defending Israel's use of them in the recent conflict, but even if they had been the newer tungsten based rounds that the US has been moving to, they would be hazardous as well:

Quote:
According to recent research, at least some of the most promising tungsten alloys which have been considered as replacement for depleted uranium in penetrator ammunitions, such as tungsten-cobalt or tungsten-nickel-cobalt alloys, also possess extreme carcinogenic properties, which by far exceed those (confirmed or suspected) of depleted uranium itself: 100 percent of rats implanted with a pellet of such alloys developed lethal rhabdomyosarcoma within a few weeks.

Embedded Weapons-Grade Tungsten Alloy Shrapnel Rapidly Induces Metastatic High-Grade Rhabdomyosarcomas in F344 Rats

So the toxicity of DU isn't the debate, it's whether they should have been necessary to use in the first place against an enemy with no armored vehicles.
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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post #293 of 303
White phosphorus used as a weapon in residential areas, tanks, jets and helicopters used against a guerillia-force equipped with machineguns, mortars, mines and rocketproppelled grenades, uranium-depleted ammunition against militants with no armour...

there are two reasons for this obvious abuse of power:

1. Israel's government wanted to shock the Gazans, so that they disown Hamas. Collective punishment after the siege didn't achieve that.

2. Israel's government wanted to prevent casualties among israeli soldiers at all cost.

Nightcrawler
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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post #294 of 303
Hmmm, not even animals were safe.

Israeli troops shot and killed zoo animals

Quote:
Israel has accused Hamas of firing rockets from civilian areas. Qasim reacts angrily when we raise the subject.

"Let me answer that with a question. We are under attack. There was not a single person in this zoo. Just the animals. We all fled before they came. What purpose does it serve to walk around shooting animals and destroying the place?"

Is there anything over there that Israel hasn't shot, bombed, or utterly fucked up?
post #295 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Hmmm, not even animals were safe.

Israeli troops shot and killed zoo animals

Well, you have to understand Israel's army and government: It's all the fault of Hamas, they were hiding behind women, children and... uhh, lions, too, these cowards!



Nightcrawler
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
Reply
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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post #296 of 303
Its probably not been reported yet in the US - I know you have to kill atleast 1000 Palestinians before it makes a column on the 23rd page, but Isreal is back in Palestine - only this time they bought the bulldozers...and it wasn't to clean out the lions den.
post #297 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Hmmm, not even animals were safe.

Israeli troops shot and killed zoo animals



Is there anything over there that Israel hasn't shot, bombed, or utterly fucked up?

Woooops.

Hamas Booby Trapped School and Zoo 11 Jan. 2009


The animals must have been jews. Well the pigs and dogs at least .... right?
post #298 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Woooops.

Hamas Booby Trapped School and Zoo 11 Jan. 2009


The animals must have been jews. Well the pigs and dogs at least .... right?

Hmmm...... a You Tube video from the IDF's PR department. Not really feeling it.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #299 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Hmmm...... a You Tube video from the IDF's PR department. Not really feeling it.

Do you feel the Hamas PR department?

Hamas children show teaches: Jews are murderers

You lefties should find a better hero than Hamas.
post #300 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Do you feel the Hamas PR department?

Hamas children show teaches: Jews are murderers

You lefties should find a better hero than Hamas.

Yes. That's right. Because "we lefties" object to the actions of the Israeli government, we must make Hamas our "heroes."

Scott. This situation is not black and white and dissent and objection are permissible. It is possible to sympathise with both Israel and Palestine and your utter luck of empathy of the 1,000 people killed in the last month is shocking to me.
post #301 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post

Yes. That's right. Because "we lefties" object to the actions of the Israeli government, we must make Hamas our "heroes."

Scott. This situation is not black and white and dissent and objection are permissible. It is possible to sympathise with both Israel and Palestine and your utter luck of empathy of the 1,000 people killed in the last month is shocking to me.

They're not people. They're terrorists. And if they're not terrorists, then they're potential terrorists. And if they're not potential terrorists then they're terrorist sympathizers. In any case, they're Palestinian, so who cares?

Who cares, indeed.
post #302 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Do you feel the Hamas PR department?

Hamas children show teaches: Jews are murderers

You lefties should find a better hero than Hamas.

As Hassan says, not being entirely down with what is after all overt IDF propaganda doesn't really require me to get behind overt Hamas propaganda or declare them heroes.

Honestly, I don't even see how it makes me a "lefty."

Is the requirement that I reflexively support anything Israel does or says or be branded a Hamas worshipping fool?

I'm asking.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #303 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post

Yes. That's right. Because "we lefties" object to the actions of the Israeli government, we must make Hamas our "heroes."

Scott. This situation is not black and white and dissent and objection are permissible. It is possible to sympathise with both Israel and Palestine and your utter luck of empathy of the 1,000 people killed in the last month is shocking to me.

Oh I feel bad for the people that are kept hostage by the far left supported Hamas criminal terrorist organization. Maybe we can retreat to some "defensive tunnels" and talk it over.
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