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Call for retaliation - Page 2

post #41 of 303
I give my sincere apologies.

I simply was not paying attention to the original date of the opening post of this thread nor did I realize a former thread title was in place before the one now.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #42 of 303
Thread Starter 
Tulkas, it's typical for Republicans and neo-fascist Liberals to brush off anything that opposes what they think. Thanks for revealing your true nature. Why not say something to defend blanket bombing?
Hardee, I agree with your summation.
I am still surprised that this noble group hadn't posted anything on the conflict, though.
See you in a year and half.
post #43 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunocrat View Post

Tulkas, it's typical for Republicans and neo-fascist Liberals to brush off anything that opposes what they think. Thanks for revealing your true nature. Why not say something to defend blanket bombing?
Hardee, I agree with your summation.
I am still surprised that this noble group hadn't posted anything on the conflict, though.
See you in a year and half.

I think this deserves a response.

I quite frankly have been very concerned by this latest Gaza news that we all find ourselves reading on the front pages of every news outlet. I will be honest and say up front that I don't know what the answer is. In my ideal world which by the way we do not obviously live each side would NOT attack the other side to begin with.


I realize there are many in the world who possibly and most probably have the attitude of "Let them kill each other" "They will never live together in peace" They being the two sides of this conflict.

I don't hold these views. I truly wish that each side instead of the tactics we see now would have leadership which would be above violence and the past. As it is we are not seeing this. Violence is the method of tactic. It simply is the wrong method to achieve a goal of peace.

I fear that seeds of further violence are being sown. To which down the road will yield yet another harvest of even greater violence. All seemingly because leadership is failing to lead correctly (as I see it).

I also believe that the world powers should not give blank check support to either side. Instead criticism should be in order. Why? because what we are seeing is inhumane and evil by any standard. The entire world should be ashamed.

May peace come to all people.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #44 of 303
This is a great reading that gives a great perspective on the whole Israel-Arab conflict. Most Americans will never get this perspective because here we are fed Israel's point of view exclusively through our media.

"As the Arabs see the Jews"

His Majesty King Abdullah, The American Magazine November, 1947

Quote:
I am especially delighted to address an American audience, for the tragic problem of Palestine will never be solved without American understanding, American sympathy, American support.

So many billions of words have been written about Palestineperhaps more than on any other subject in historythat I hesitate to add to them. Yet I am compelled to do so, for I am reluctantly convinced that the world in general, and America in particular, knows almost nothing of the true case for the Arabs.

We Arabs follow, perhaps far more than you think, the press of America. We are frankly disturbed to find that for every word printed on the Arab side, a thousand are printed on the Zionist side.

There are many reasons for this. You have many millions of Jewish citizens interested in this question. They are highly vocal and wise in the ways of publicity. There are few Arab citizens in America, and we are as yet unskilled in the technique of modern propaganda.

The results have been alarming for us. In your press we see a horrible caricature and are told it is our true portrait. In all justice, we cannot let this pass by default.

Our case is quite simple: For nearly 2,000 years Palestine has been almost 100 per cent Arab. It is still preponderantly Arab today, in spite of enormous Jewish immigration. But if this immigration continues we shall soon be outnumbereda minority in our home.

Palestine is a small and very poor country, about the size of your state of Vermont. Its Arab population is only about 1,200,000. Already we have had forced on us, against our will, some 600,000 Zionist Jews. We are threatened with many hundreds of thousands more.

Our position is so simple and natural that we are amazed it should even be questioned. It is exactly the same position you in America take in regard to the unhappy European Jews. You are sorry for them, but you do not want them in your country.

We do not want them in ours, either. Not because they are Jews, but because they are foreigners. We would not want hundreds of thousands of foreigners in our country, be they Englishmen or Norwegians or Brazilians or whatever.

Think for a moment: In the last 25 years we have had one third of our entire population forced upon us. In America that would be the equivalent of 45,000,000 complete strangers admitted to your country, over your violent protest, since 1921. How would you have reacted to that?

Because of our perfectly natural dislike of being overwhelmed in our own homeland, we are called blind nationalists and heartless anti-Semites. This charge would be ludicrous were it not so dangerous.

No people on earth have been less "anti-Semitic" than the Arabs. The persecution of the Jews has been confined almost entirely to the Christian nations of the West. Jews, themselves, will admit that never since the Great Dispersion did Jews develop so freely and reach such importance as in Spain when it was an Arab possession. With very minor exceptions, Jews have lived for many centuries in the Middle East, in complete peace and friendliness with their Arab neighbours.

Damascus, Baghdad, Beirut and other Arab centres have always contained large and prosperous Jewish colonies. Until the Zionist invasion of Palestine began, these Jews received the most generous treatmentfar, far better than in Christian Europe. Now, unhappily, for the first time in history, these Jews are beginning to feel the effects of Arab resistance to the Zionist assault. Most of them are as anxious as Arabs to stop it. Most of these Jews who have found happy homes among us resent, as we do, the coming of these strangers.

I was puzzled for a long time about the odd belief which apparently persists in America that Palestine has somehow "always been a Jewish land." Recently an American I talked to cleared up this mystery. He pointed out that the only things most Americans know about Palestine are what they read in the Bible. It was a Jewish land in those days, they reason, and they assume it has always remained so.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. It is absurd to reach so far back into the mists of history to argue about who should have Palestine today, and I apologise for it. Yet the Jews do this, and I must reply to their "historic claim." I wonder if the world has ever seen a stranger sight than a group of people seriously pretending to claim a land because their ancestors lived there some 2,000 years ago!

If you suggest that I am biased, I invite you to read any sound history of the period and verify the facts.

Such fragmentary records as we have indicate that the Jews were wandering nomads from Iraq who moved to southern Turkey, came south to Palestine, stayed there a short time, and then passed to Egypt, where they remained about 400 years. About 1300 BC (according to your calendar) they left Egypt and gradually conquered mostbut not allof the inhabitants of Palestine.

It is significant that the Philistinesnot the Jewsgave their name to the country: "Palestine" is merely the Greek form of "Philistia."

Only once, during the empire of David and Solomon, did the Jews ever control nearlybut not allthe land which is today Palestine. This empire lasted only 70 years, ending in 926 BC. Only 250 years later the Kingdom of Judah had shrunk to a small province around Jerusalem, barely a quarter of modern Palestine.

In 63 BC the Jews were conquered by Roman Pompey, and never again had even the vestige of independence. The Roman Emperor Hadrian finally wiped them out about 135 AD. He utterly destroyed Jerusalem, rebuilt under another name, and for hundreds of years no Jew was permitted to enter it. A handful of Jews remained in Palestine but the vast majority were killed or scattered to other countries, in the Diaspora, or the Great Dispersion. From that time Palestine ceased to be a Jewish country, in any conceivable sense.

This was 1,815 years ago, and yet the Jews solemnly pretend they still own Palestine! If such fantasy were allowed, how the map of the world would dance about!

Italians might claim England, which the Romans held so long. England might claim France, "homeland" of the conquering Normans. And the French Normans might claim Norway, where their ancestors originated. And incidentally, we Arabs might claim Spain, which we held for 700 years.

Many Mexicans might claim Spain, "homeland" of their forefathers. They might even claim Texas, which was Mexican until 100 years ago. And suppose the American Indians claimed the "homeland" of which they were the sole, native, and ancient occupants until only some 450 years ago!

I am not being facetious. All these claims are just as validor just as fantasticas the Jewish "historic connection" with Palestine. Most are more valid.

In any event, the great Moslem expansion about 650 AD finally settled things. It dominated Palestine completely. From that day on, Palestine was solidly Arabic in population, language, and religion. When British armies entered the country during the last war, they found 500,000 Arabs and only 65,000 Jews.

If solid, uninterrupted Arab occupation for nearly 1,300 years does not make a country "Arab", what does?

The Jews say, and rightly, that Palestine is the home of their religion. It is likewise the birthplace of Christianity, but would any Christian nation claim it on that account? In passing, let me say that the Christian Arabsand there are many hundreds of thousands of them in the Arab Worldare in absolute agreement with all other Arabs in opposing the Zionist invasion of Palestine.

May I also point out that Jerusalem is, after Mecca and Medina, the holiest place in Islam. In fact, in the early days of our religion, Moslems prayed toward Jerusalem instead of Mecca.

The Jewish "religious claim" to Palestine is as absurd as the "historic claim." The Holy Places, sacred to three great religions, must be open to all, the monopoly of none. Let us not confuse religion and politics.

We are told that we are inhumane and heartless because do not accept with open arms the perhaps 200,000 Jews in Europe who suffered so frightfully under Nazi cruelty, and who even nowalmost three years after wars endstill languish in cold, depressing camps.

Let me underline several facts. The unimaginable persecution of the Jews was not done by the Arabs: it was done by a Christian nation in the West. The war which ruined Europe and made it almost impossible for these Jews to rehabilitate themselves was fought by the Christian nations of the West. The rich and empty portions of the earth belong, not to the Arabs, but to the Christian nations of the West.

And yet, to ease their consciences, these Christian nations of the West are asking Palestinea poor and tiny Moslem country of the Eastto accept the entire burden. "We have hurt these people terribly," cries the West to the East. "Wont you please take care of them for us?"

We find neither logic nor justice in this. Are we therefore "cruel and heartless nationalists"?

We are a generous people: we are proud that "Arab hospitality" is a phrase famous throughout the world. We are a humane people: no one was shocked more than we by the Hitlerite terror. No one pities the present plight of the desperate European Jews more than we.

But we say that Palestine has already sheltered 600,000 refugees. We believe that is enough to expect of useven too much. We believe it is now the turn of the rest of the world to accept some of them.

I will be entirely frank with you. There is one thing the Arab world simply cannot understand. Of all the nations of the earth, America is most insistent that something be done for these suffering Jews of Europe. This feeling does credit to the humanity for which America is famous, and to that glorious inscription on your Statue of Liberty.

And yet this same Americathe richest, greatest, most powerful nation the world has ever knownrefuses to accept more than a token handful of these same Jews herself!

I hope you will not think I am being bitter about this. I have tried hard to understand that mysterious paradox, and I confess I cannot. Nor can any other Arab.

Perhaps you have been informed that "the Jews in Europe want to go to no other place except Palestine."

This myth is one of the greatest propaganda triumphs of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, the organisation which promotes with fanatic zeal the emigration to Palestine. It is a subtle half-truth, thus doubly dangerous.

The astounding truth is that nobody on earth really knows where these unfortunate Jews really want to go!

You would think that in so grave a problem, the American, British, and other authorities responsible for the European Jews would have made a very careful survey, probably by vote, to find out where each Jew actually wants to go. Amazingly enough this has never been done! The Jewish Agency has prevented it.

Some time ago the American Military Governor in Germany was asked at a press conference how he was so certain that all Jews there wanted to go to Palestine. His answer was simple: "My Jewish advisors tell me so." He admitted no poll had ever been made. Preparations were indeed begun for one, but the Jewish Agency stepped in to stop it.

The truth is that the Jews in German camps are now subjected to a Zionist pressure campaign which learned much from the Nazi terror. It is dangerous for a Jew to say that he would rather go to some other country, not Palestine. Such dissenters have been severely beaten, and worse.

Not long ago, in Palestine, nearly 1,000 Austrian Jews informed the international refugee organisation that they would like to go back to Austria, and plans were made to repatriate them.

The Jewish Agency heard of this, and exerted enough political pressure to stop it. It would be bad propaganda for Zionism if Jews began leaving Palestine. The nearly 1,000 Austrian are still there, against their will.

The fact is that most of the European Jews are Western in culture and outlook, entirely urban in experience and habits. They cannot really have their hearts set on becoming pioneers in the barren, arid, cramped land which is Palestine.

One thing, however, is undoubtedly true. As matters stand now, most refugee Jews in Europe would, indeed, vote for Palestine, simply because they know no other country will have them.

If you or I were given a choice between a near-prison camp for the rest of our livesor Palestinewe would both choose Palestine, too.

But open up any other alternative to themgive them any other choice, and see what happens!

No poll, however, will be worth anything unless the nations of the earth are willing to open their doorsjust a littleto the Jews. In other words, if in such a poll a Jew says he wants to go to Sweden, Sweden must be willing to accept him. If he votes for America, you must let him come in.

Any other kind of poll would be a farce. For the desperate Jew, this is no idle testing of opinion: this is a grave matter of life or death. Unless he is absolutely sure that his vote means something, he will always vote for Palestine, so as not to risk his bird in the hand for one in the bush.

In any event, Palestine can accept no more. The 65,000 Jews in Palestine in 1918 have jumped to 600,000 today. We Arabs have increased, too, but not by immigration. The Jews were then a mere 11 per cent of our population. Today they are one third of it.

The rate of increase has been terrifying. In a few more yearsunless stopped nowit will overwhelm us, and we shall be an important minority in our own home.

Surely the rest of the wide world is rich enough and generous enough to find a place for 200,000 Jewsabout one third the number that tiny, poor Palestine has already sheltered. For the rest of the world, it is hardly a drop in the bucket. For us it means national suicide.

We are sometimes told that since the Jews came to Palestine, the Arab standard of living has improved. This is a most complicated question. But let us even assume, for the argument, that it is true. We would rather be a bit poorer, and masters of our own home. Is this unnatural?

The sorry story of the so-called "Balfour Declaration," which started Zionist immigration into Palestine, is too complicated to repeat here in detail. It is grounded in broken promises to the Arabspromises made in cold print which admit no denying.

We utterly deny its validity. We utterly deny the right of Great Britain to give away Arab land for a "national home" for an entirely foreign people.

Even the League of Nations sanction does not alter this. At the time, not a single Arab state was a member of the League. We were not allowed to say a word in our own defense.

I must point out, again in friendly frankness, that America was nearly as responsible as Britain for this Balfour Declaration. President Wilson approved it before it was issued, and the American Congress adopted it word for word in a joint resolution on 30th June, 1922.

In the 1920s, Arabs were annoyed and insulted by Zionist immigration, but not alarmed by it. It was steady, but fairly small, as even the Zionist founders thought it would remain. Indeed for some years, more Jews left Palestine than entered itin 1927 almost twice as many.

But two new factors, entirely unforeseen by Britain or the League or America or the most fervent Zionist, arose in the early thirties to raise the immigration to undreamed heights. One was the World Depression; the second the rise of Hitler.

In 1932, the year before Hitler came to power, only 9,500 Jews came to Palestine. We did not welcome them, but we were not afraid that, at that rate, our solid Arab majority would ever be in danger.

But the next yearthe year of Hitlerit jumped to 30,000! In 1934 it was 42,000! In 1935 it reached 61,000!

It was no longer the orderly arrival of idealist Zionists. Rather, all Europe was pouring its frightened Jews upon us. Then, at last, we, too, became frightened. We knew that unless this enormous influx stopped, we were, as Arabs, doomed in our Palestine homeland. And we have not changed our minds.

I have the impression that many Americans believe the trouble in Palestine is very remote from them, that America had little to do with it, and that your only interest now is that of a humane bystander.

I believe that you do not realise how directly you are, as a nation, responsible in general for the whole Zionist move and specifically for the present terrorism. I call this to your attention because I am certain that if you realise your responsibility you will act fairly to admit it and assume it.

Quite aside from official American support for the "National Home" of the Balfour Declaration, the Zionist settlements in Palestine would have been almost impossible, on anything like the current scale, without American money. This was contributed by American Jewry in an idealistic effort to help their fellows.

The motive was worthy: the result were disastrous. The contributions were by private individuals, but they were almost entirely Americans, and, as a nation, only America can answer for it.

The present catastrophe may be laid almost entirely at your door. Your government, almost alone in the world, is insisting on the immediate admission of 100,000 more Jews into Palestineto be followed by countless additional ones. This will have the most frightful consequences in bloody chaos beyond anything ever hinted at in Palestine before.

It is your press and political leadership, almost alone in the world, who press this demand. It is almost entirely American money which hires or buys the "refugee ships" that steam illegally toward Palestine: American money which pays their crews. The illegal immigration from Europe is arranged by the Jewish Agency, supported almost entirely by American funds. It is American dollars which support the terrorists, which buy the bullets and pistols that kill British soldiersyour alliesand Arab citizensyour friends.

We in the Arab world were stunned to hear that you permit open advertisements in newspapers asking for money to finance these terrorists, to arm them openly and deliberately for murder. We could not believe this could really happen in the modern world. Now we must believe it: we have seen the advertisements with our own eyes.

I point out these things because nothing less than complete frankness will be of use. The crisis is too stark for mere polite vagueness which means nothing.

I have the most complete confidence in the fair-mindedness and generosity of the American public. We Arabs ask no favours. We ask only that you know the full truth, not half of it. We ask only that when you judge the Palestine question, you put yourselves in our place.

What would your answer be if some outside agency told you that you must accept in America many millions of utter strangers in your midstenough to dominate your countrymerely because they insisted on going to America, and because their forefathers had once lived there some 2,000 years ago?

Our answer is the same.

And what would be your action if, in spite of your refusal, this outside agency began forcing them on you?

Ours will be the same.

One wonders if those currently in power have as reasonable minds as this, or whether instead decades of irrational policy on both sides have taken the conflict beyond its cause.
post #45 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

This is a great reading that gives a great perspective on the whole Israel-Arab conflict. Most Americans will never get this perspective because here we are fed Israel's point of view exclusively through our media.

"As the Arabs see the Jews"

His Majesty King Abdullah, The American Magazine November, 1947



One wonders if those currently in power have as reasonable minds as this, or whether instead decades of irrational policy on both sides have taken the conflict beyond its cause.

Largely irrelevant now...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #46 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Largely irrelevant now...

Really?

Quote:
It is your press and political leadership, almost alone in the world, who press this demand. It is almost entirely American money which hires or buys the "refugee ships" that steam illegally toward Palestine: American money which pays their crews. The illegal immigration from Europe is arranged by the Jewish Agency, supported almost entirely by American funds. It is American dollars which support the terrorists, which buy the bullets and pistols that kill British soldiers—your allies—and Arab citizens—your friends.

We in the Arab world were stunned to hear that you permit open advertisements in newspapers asking for money to finance these terrorists, to arm them openly and deliberately for murder. We could not believe this could really happen in the modern world. Now we must believe it: we have seen the advertisements with our own eyes.

People forget that Zionists brought terrorism to Palestine, and once it was turned on them, started to shit bricks. Just like their domineering occupation behavior, when turned on them one day, will result in the same irrational "we deserve to get better than we dish out" whining.

And we the U.S. keep enabling this cycle of madness/violence, to the tune of 3 billion dollars a year.

Also, we are sending $85 million to Gaza/Hamas. Where will that money go?
post #47 of 303
Israel has been a Jewish state for over 50 years now, by right of conquest in a series of wars from the 50s to the 70s. The country was formed the same way it was captured (and held for 700 years) by the Arabs, as he mentions in the letter. If it was OK for the Romans to take Israel, and for the Arabs to later take Israel, why can't the Jews take Israel?

It seems like nonsense to me that people expect this country to just vanish. At a certain point this (long time of occupation = legitimacy) formula starts to work against the arab argument of ownership of palastine, as 50 years is a really long time in the modern world (our own country is only 231 years old). At no point in my life has Israel been any different than it is now, jews and arabs hating and killing each other is as natural to me as anything else in the world.

Also, exactly how can Israel have peace with any of its neighbors until it exterminates Hamas? Hamas has as its basic belief that the state of Israel needs to be destroyed, and Syria and Iran are funding Hamas.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #48 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

...

Also, we are sending $85 million to Gaza/Hamas. Where will that money go?

Baby milk factories.
post #49 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Baby milk factories.

Humorous anecdote. Not. Why I still have you on ignore.
post #50 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Israel has been a Jewish state for over 50 years now, by right of conquest in a series of wars from the 50s to the 70s. The country was formed the same way it was captured (and held for 700 years) by the Arabs, as he mentions in the letter. If it was OK for the Romans to take Israel, and for the Arabs to later take Israel, why can't the Jews take Israel?

Not saying they shouldn't have Israel. It's the overall means that they have done to (or attempt to) do this that bother me. The land the Palestinians has gotten smaller and smaller, which means their "battlefield" has vanished. They are fighting in a cage. And now the Israelis are shooting fish in a barrel.

Quote:
It seems like nonsense to me that people expect this country to just vanish. At a certain point this (long time of occupation = legitimacy) formula starts to work against the arab argument of ownership of palastine, as 50 years is a really long time in the modern world.

In that time, Israel and Palestine has had the opportunity to settle differences. But there never will be one if the only outcome is for Israel alone.

Quote:
At no point in my life has Israel been any different than it is now, jews and arabs hating and killing each other is as natural to me as anything else in the world.

I agree, I have been absorbed thoroughly with the religious, political and just plain stupidity of it all for thirty years. But I still don't like people suffering and the U.S. supporting this travesty. We should completely remove our support with Israel. Let them choose the course they want to make on their own.

Prediction: Israel will pull out of Gaza on or before January 20th 2009.

Quote:
Also, exactly how can Israel have peace with any of its neighbors until it exterminates Hamas? Hamas has as its basic belief that the state of Israel needs to be destroyed, and Syria and Iran are funding Hamas.

If they wipe Hamas off the map, they pretty much will take all Palestinians from existence too. Yet it's nonsense to think, accept or expect the Palestinians to vanish either. Much like the original Natives of America had.
post #51 of 303
One good thing,

Already its clear that the usual pile of stinking filth - those that voted Bush no matter what, those that rally for unhinged greedy capatalism, those that fear God and love their guns, and those that still think that we will find WMD in Iraq...

..They're all rooting for and justifying Israels' acts of genocide, because a dusty old tome they dont understand claims that some ancient people have a right to occupy some land.

By all means, people, Jews, Christians, occupy this land of Israel - for it surely, with the slightest understanding of the words, it is not the physical place you have invaded today and continue to persecute and hold under captivity.

Of course, the rest of us know, just how wrong, they mentioned above, have been on everything they rally for time and time again, and where their course of action ends everytime. Disaster and disgrace.

The plight of the Palestinians may seem impossible, but they will rise from this graveyard, and one day, these Zionist imposters will be wiped from history.

Its rather odd that a Nation who make so much play on their suffering not so long ago, turn round and commit exactly the same attrocities a single generation later.
post #52 of 303
The Bible says an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...

Not your whole fucking race for a few rockets launched in desperation against a tyrant who refuses to send medicine to the people they are legally responsible for.

Onca again, this is genocide. I don't think the US and Isreal will be able to defend their position against the coming onslaught of international outrage this is resulting in. Big things will happen, resulting in a massive power shift away from US centrism. You think the Iraq war put the US in bad light? You ain't seen nothing yet...
post #53 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The Bible says an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...

Not your whole fucking race for a few rockets launched in desperation against a tyrant who refuses to send medicine to the people they are legally responsible for.

Onca again, this is genocide.

And Jesus apparently showed up to tell us all that the Old Testament was a load of bollocks and that there was a better way to live our lives.

Its not funny the these rabid supporters of Israel's genocide know less today than an imaginary figure knew 2000 years ago.

When this happened in Kosovo, Milosovich et all were all tried for war crimes. I dont expect the same standard will hold for the pigs of the Middle East.
post #54 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You think the Iraq war put the US in bad light? You ain't seen nothing yet...

Unfortunately, correct...

70,000 Iranian students 'volunteer to carry out suicide bombings in Israel'

Quote:
More than 70,000 Iranian students have volunteered to carry out suicide bombings against Israel, according to Iran's state news agency, but President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has not responded to their request for permission.

Volunteer suicide groups have made similar requests in the past and the government has never responded, which suggests that the campaigns are mostly propaganda.

According to the official IRNA news agency, hardline student leader Esmaeil Ahmadi said the students want to fight Israel in support of Hamas, Gaza's Islamic militant rulers.

Iran is Hamas' main backer, though the country denies sending weapons to the Islamic militant movement that took control of the Gaza Strip in 2007. Iran considers Israel its sworn enemy, and Mr Ahmadinejad has called for the destruction of the Jewish state.

Five hard-line student groups and a conservative clerical group launched the registration drive for suicide bombers last week and asked the government to allow them to stage the attacks.

\
post #55 of 303
So, when Hamas is finally wiped out, who is going stand between the Israeli military and the Palestinian civilians? Sticks and stones are not a very effective defense against US supplied killing machines, such as tanks, F-16s, Apache helicopters, and the ubiquitous D9 bulldozers, all operated by the IDF, which will then have free rein to complete its scorched earth mission, while the neocons look on gloatingly, and Obama remains silent.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #56 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

So, when Hamas is finally wiped out, who is going stand between the Israeli military and the Palestinian civilians? Sticks and stones are not a very effective defense against US supplied killing machines, such as tanks, F-16s, Apache helicopters, and the ubiquitous D9 bulldozers, all operated by the IDF, which will then have free rein to complete its scorched earth mission, while the neocons look on gloatingly, and Obama remains silent.

Since when did Hamas ever stand between the Israeli military and the Palestinian civilians? They are more in the habit of hiding behind the civilians.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #57 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

So, when Hamas is finally wiped out, who is going stand between the Israeli military and the Palestinian civilians?

I honestly believe that the Israeli government doesn't care about the Palestinian civilians anymore. And has done a good job desensitizing it's people from the carnage.

Quote:
Sticks and stones are not a very effective defense against US supplied killing machines, such as tanks, F-16s, Apache helicopters, and the ubiquitous D9 bulldozers, all operated by the IDF, which will then have free rein to complete its scorched earth mission, while the neocons look on gloatingly, and Obama remains silent.

Obama breaks silence on Gaza, voices concern

Quote:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President-elect Barack Obama, breaking his silence about the Gaza war, expressed deep concern on Tuesday about the loss of civilian lives in Gaza and in Israel.

Speaking after Israeli tank shells killed at least 40 Palestinians at a U.N. school where civilians had taken shelter, Obama told reporters "the loss of civilian life in Gaza and Israel is a source of deep concern for me."

But Obama otherwise said he would adhere to his principle that only U.S. President George W. Bush would speak for American foreign policy at this time, but said he would have plenty more to say after his January 20 inauguration.

This is why I believe that Israel will pull out on or before January 20th.

Not saying Obama will turn against Israel, it is just in their best interest to see what he will do. But with Joe "If I were a Jew, I'd be a Zionist" Biden along for the next 4 years, change in this policy will never happen.

See? I have always had doubts about Biden, especially his goofy love-child relationship on this subject. I could care a less what indictment his son had, or how fucking poor he is, I have more fears of where his allegiance is, to Israel/Zionists or the U.S..

Meanwhile...

Some children die...



And some Israelis laugh...



post #58 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The Bible says an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...

Not your whole fucking race for a few rockets launched in desperation against a tyrant who refuses to send medicine to the people they are legally responsible for.

Onca again, this is genocide. I don't think the US and Isreal will be able to defend their position against the coming onslaught of international outrage this is resulting in. Big things will happen, resulting in a massive power shift away from US centrism. You think the Iraq war put the US in bad light? You ain't seen nothing yet...

If it is even close to being genocide, the Israelis have got to be the most incompetent perpetrators ever. They have had ~60 years to accomplish it and have not managed to cleanse the area, even with the often trumpeted protection of the US to do as they please. You would think with their military and jewish propensity for murder that they would have managed it by now.

Stupidity in your rhetoric just serves to invalidate your sometimes reasonable points.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #59 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Since when did Hamas ever stand between the Israeli military and the Palestinian civilians? They are more in the habit of hiding behind the civilians.

Kind of hard to fight a battle with no battleground (Gaza) left...

post #60 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

If they wipe Hamas off the map, they pretty much will take all Palestinians from existence too. Yet it's nonsense to think, accept or expect the Palestinians to vanish either. Much like the original Natives of America had.

Now, I don't think that is true. In my (limited) understanding, the Palestinian authority got a lot of votes in the last election, and the real Hamas members are a very small minority. And if they are not a small minority, if the whole population of the Gaza strip is involved in shooting rockets at the Israelis, then don't they deserve to get wiped out?

You can't have it both ways - Hamas being a minority and the innocent population is getting hurt, vs Hamas is a majority and wiping them out wipes out all the Palestinians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

So, when Hamas is finally wiped out, who is going stand between the Israeli military and the Palestinian civilians? Sticks and stones are not a very effective defense against US supplied killing machines, such as tanks, F-16s, Apache helicopters, and the ubiquitous D9 bulldozers, all operated by the IDF, which will then have free rein to complete its scorched earth mission, while the neocons look on gloatingly, and Obama remains silent.

So you think that Hamas is the only thing standing between Israel and a Palestinian genocide? That is pretty messed up thinking, IMHO - both false, and a twisted rationale for the rocket attacks.

If Israel intended to kill all the Palestinians, they would have already done it. Really, the current situation is happening because they were too nice - they should have driven the Palestinians out of the country in 1967, then they would be a problem for the perpetrators of that war (Egypt and Syria).
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post #61 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Now, I don't think that is true. In my (limited) understanding, the Palestinian authority got a lot of votes in the last election, and the real Hamas members are a very small minority. And if they are not a small minority, if the whole population of the Gaza strip is involved in shooting rockets at the Israelis, then don't they deserve to get wiped out?

Look at those maps. Look at Gaza. Look at Israel. People do not seem to realize that it is an ongoing occupation, another invasion and slow genocide.

Quote:
You can't have it both ways - Hamas being a minority and the innocent population is getting hurt, vs Hamas is a majority and wiping them out wipes out all the Palestinians.

Wiping out shit seems to be your solution to everything, not mine.
post #62 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Look at those maps. Look at Gaza. Look at Israel.
Wiping out shit seems to be your solution to everything, not mine.

You didn't answer my question. How is Hamas = the Palestinians. Why can you not get rid of Hamas without getting rid of all the Palestinians?

Personally, I think that integration is the right answer at this point - wait until the Jews outnumber the Palestinians, and then integrate the two sides (give the Palestinians citizenship and the vote). But before they can do anything constructive, they have to destroy Hamas, because Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of the Israeli state. What is your way forward? Does it in any way stop Hamas from shooting rockets? No? I didn't think so.

Its like if you lived in a house with 10 people, and one was a homicidal maniac. First you get rid of the maniac, and then the rest of the people can get along OK.
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post #63 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

You didn't answer my question. How is Hamas = the Palestinians. Why can you not get rid of Hamas without getting rid of all the Palestinians?

The question is clearer. Here's an answer. Recognize them as a politically, democratically voted political party instead of a terrorist organization. Something Israel and the U.S. did not do. If they had, they all may have been sitting across a table negotiating with each other instead of killing each other.

Another map, Countries that recognize the State of Palestine.

Quote:
Personally, I think that integration is the right answer at this point - wait until the Jews outnumber the Palestinians, and then integrate the two sides (give the Palestinians citizenship and the vote). But before they can do anything constructive, they have to destroy Hamas, because Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of the Israeli state. What is your way forward? Does it in any way stop Hamas from shooting rockets? No? I didn't think so.

I agree! Let them let go of all past indiscretions and get on with a lifestyle that befits the 21st century! But my cynicism seems to win out every time. Because Israeli/AIPAC//U.S. policy won't let it happen...from the Zionist Nut-Jobs to the Christian Rapture Rejects to the Muslim Fundamentalists...they don't want it to happen. Because their Gods told them so.

Quote:
Its like if you lived in a house with 10 people, and one was a homicidal maniac. First you get rid of the maniac, and then the rest of the people can get along OK.

Except the "homicidal maniac" was forced to live locked up in the basement all their life and couldn't get out to take a shit without the nine other people's permission.
post #64 of 303
They were willing to recognize Hamas, all Hamas needed to do was give up the central "Death to Israel" philosophy, which they refused to do.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6146968.stm

It does not matter why the homicidal maniac got that way, it just matters what you do from here. From here how would you stop the rocket attacks?
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post #65 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

They were willing to recognize Hamas, all Hamas needed to do was give up the central "Death to Israel" philosophy, which they refused to do.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6146968.stm

Thanks for the citation, I didn't realize that. But that could be settled within the context of negotiations and return of occupied territory. Yet usually that stupid religious stuff gets in the way.

Quote:
It does not matter why the homicidal maniac got that way, it just matters what you do from here. From here how would you stop the rocket attacks?

I got it, they should just put their weapons down and have a soccer tournament. An open field, no weapons, the best team who wins gets the whole fucking lot.

In other words, it's not easy having a war when on both sides there's no room to engage it.
post #66 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Since when did Hamas ever stand between the Israeli military and the Palestinian civilians? They are more in the habit of hiding behind the civilians.

This bogus "Hamas using civilians as human shields" propaganda is often repeated by those who appease the Zionist agenda. The Gaza Strip has one of the greatest population densities in the world. The 2008 population was 1,537,269, giving the region a population density of 11,060 per square mile. That is about 17 persons per acre. (about 75% the area of a football field).

Any military hardware or personnel defending the region will be in close proximity to non-combatants by default: it is physically impossible not to be. Stationing defensive positions along the beaches would be militarily useless.

The Israelis have a ready made excuse (read emotional blackmail) which the US media regurgitates without question, paying zero attention to the geographical characteristics of the territory.

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post #67 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Thanks for the citation, I didn't realize that. But that could be settled within the context of negotiations and return of occupied territory. Yet usually that stupid religious stuff gets in the way.

It is more than religious stuff that gets in the way. Israel will never return territory (other than the Sinai, which they gave back long ago), because they get water from the Golan Heights, and Syria used to shell them every day from there.

Also, when they didn't own the west bank, they were too vulnerable to attack, and they learned in 1967 and 1973. Military and water rights are the reasons that they are not giving any of this land back.
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post #68 of 303
I didn't see the original thread so I can't comment on its title. But I'm pretty secure in observing that most Americans don't know that many Palestinians refuse to refer to Israelis as "Israelis" (choosing to use "Jews" instead, as opposed to the Muslim and Christian inhabitants of Palestine), as that would subtly acknowledge the reality of the Israeli state (which they often call the "zionist entity").

I don't really see racial hatred here; I see hatred of the occupier. Israel maintains control of Gaza strip's airspace, territorial waters, and offshore maritime access, as well as its side of the Gaza-Israel border Some legal experts say according to Int'l law Gaza is still considered to be occupied, since a foreign entity controls all access to it, thereby exercising complete control over its population.) I imagine if your family or relatives and friends were locked up in what amounts to a concentration camp (the population is concentrated in a "fixed" area, albeit with 1 natural border--the sea, patrolled by the Israeli navy), starved, denied access to economic means of survival (see Amnesty Int'ls Gaza blog), you'd be pissed too--and that's before the bombing.

The dishonest bit about Israel's (and the US's) line is the selective forgetting of the impact of the Gaza blockade. Also, the real issue isn't Hamas missiles; it's that Israel doesn't want a Palestinian state under any conditions but the ones Israel imposes (and they prefer that it be located in Jordan, seeing even that as a sacrifice of what many Israelis consider to be part of eretz Israel). If you want to hear what the other side is saying (not the Palestinians, the Int'l community), read the Guardian, The Independent, even Haaretz, or go here.

PS It's kind of a laugh that Israel says Hamas isn't putting any effort into feeding the Palestinian population. , when Israel won't let food in except for UN World Food Programme or some NGO deliveries. Kind of like Tzipi Livni saying a couple of days ago that there wasn't a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Lastly, some people have made attempts at equivalencies between Israeli power/ actions and Hamas. One side has tanks. helos, jet fighters, drones, mechanized infantry, satellites, artillery, etc. The other has at best a few short range unguided missiles, some mortars, small arms, IEDs and lots of sling shots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

His post was akin to someone defending a klan rally as simply a gathering of some people concerned with race relations.

The original thread title and the OP's consistent content has been an open, racist smear job. It is hardly level headed to come in and rationalize the content after the fact as being only applicable to some sub set of the larger group.

If I come in here and post that all black people are violent criminal animals because my cousin was gunned down in his front yard in Jamaica by a black guy, that would be overtly racist. If a single person posted to rationalize my comments, after the fact, as only applying to those that actually are criminals, that would be obscene. For someone else to later come in, and applaud the apologists is just sad.
post #69 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

It is more than religious stuff that gets in the way. Israel will never return territory (other than the Sinai, which they gave back long ago), because they get water from the Golan Heights, and Syria used to shell them every day from there.

Also, when they didn't own the west bank, they were too vulnerable to attack, and they learned in 1967 and 1973. Military and water rights are the reasons that they are not giving any of this land back.

Maybe Bert and Ernie can provide some wisdom on sharing. \
post #70 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

So you think that Hamas is the only thing standing between Israel and a Palestinian genocide? That is pretty messed up thinking, IMHO - both false, and a twisted rationale for the rocket attacks.

So, should the Palestinian people lay down while the IDF bulldozers destroy their homes and villages? The rockets don't happen because its fun to set off fireworks like we do on the 4th July They are not firing these rockets for no reason, as the US media likes to try and portray. They are reacting in response to what is happening to their people and property. We in the USA only hear one side of the story.

Quote:
If Israel intended to kill all the Palestinians, they would have already done it.

No they wouldn't. There are parties on both sides who are benefitting very handsomely from the continuation of conflict, and the last thing they want is either peace OR total victory. Total victory often means peace, as what happened to Germany and Japan after WWII, and many other decisive wars in history. And what would happen then?

Quote:
Really, the current situation is happening because they were too nice - they should have driven the Palestinians out of the country in 1967, then they would be a problem for the perpetrators of that war (Egypt and Syria).

No, follow the money trail. That is what is driving the situation. The method is to spin a war out as long as possible, just keep things on the simmer, then have an occasional blow out (like this one), but never quite go the whole hog. The Israelis are masters at it, and it makes them appear "too nice", as you call them.
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post #71 of 303
No, it's not a genocide, but I'd call it ethnic cleansing. You only have to come to NYC (or Detroit) to see all the Palestinians living here, to realize it's not a joke. Just because Israel is sophisticated, and acts like they have all the time in the world to accomplish their goals (and they do in a way, having waited 2000 years) doesn't invalidate the results of their actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

If it is even close to being genocide, the Israelis have got to be the most incompetent perpetrators ever. They have had ~60 years to accomplish it and have not managed to cleanse the area, even with the often trumpeted protection of the US to do as they please. You would think with their military and jewish propensity for murder that they would have managed it by now.

Stupidity in your rhetoric just serves to invalidate your sometimes reasonable points.
post #72 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Maybe Bert and Ernie can provide some wisdom on sharing. \

Ernie never used licorice to try and kill Bert, or Vice Versa. Egypt and Syria tried their best to try and kill Israel, though - and they almost succeeded in 1973. They would not do as well now, mainly because of the extra territory that Israel has (it is a much longer way from the border to the coast now).

The only thing that saved Israel then was that they loaded nuclear weapons onto planes, and told the Russians (via the US) that they were going to bomb the crap out of every Arab capital and oil field. The Russians then withdrew support, and the Israelis kicked the crap out of Egypt and Syria. The rest of the world is probably a lot safer when Israel is safer, just due to the fact that they will go out with a bang. The Palestinians are really incidental compared to the rest of the big picture, at least until we no longer need oil.

And it is in the US best interest to keep the middle east mildly unstable, to prevent an EU like superstate with control over most of the world's oil.
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post #73 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Ernie never used licorice to try and kill Bert, or Vice Versa. Egypt and Syria tried their best to try and kill Israel, though - and they almost succeeded in 1973. They would not do as well now, mainly because of the extra territory that Israel has (it is a much longer way from the border to the coast now).

The only thing that saved Israel then was that they loaded nuclear weapons onto planes, and told the Russians (via the US) that they were going to bomb the crap out of every Arab capital and oil field. The Russians then withdrew support, and the Israelis kicked the crap out of Egypt and Syria. The rest of the world is probably a lot safer when Israel is safer, just due to the fact that they will go out with a bang. The Palestinians are really incidental until we no longer need oil.

And it is in the US best interest to keep the middle east mildly unstable, to prevent an EU like superstate with control over most of the world's oil.

Death and destruction then. No wonder I don't really give a shit about Israel or the Middle East in general. I care about humanity, but that stupid religious stuff get's in their way.

You can't bomb them into the stone age because even with all their modern attributes, they are still living in it. And the more we support them, we sink even further into this mess.
post #74 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

His post was akin to someone defending a klan rally as simply a gathering of some people concerned with race relations.

Are you referring to tonton when he suggested that it is "ok" to question or I believe tonton used the word condemn the actions of the Israeli government?

That Jews and the Israeli government are not the same thing?

You are not suggesting that to question or condemn the actions of the Israeli government is an act or display of anti-Semitism are you?

Is it ok in your view to question or protest the actions of the Israeli government??

Or is such a venture off the table and out of the question as such an act would automatically indicate anti-Semitism?

Please clear this up for me as your words above confuse the hell out of me.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #75 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

This bogus "Hamas using civilians as human shields" propaganda is often repeated by those who appease the Zionist agenda. The Gaza Strip has one of the greatest population densities in the world. The 2008 population was 1,537,269, giving the region a population density of 11,060 per square mile. That is about 17 persons per acre. (about 75% the area of a football field).

Any military hardware or personnel defending the region will be in close proximity to non-combatants by default: it is physically impossible not to be. Stationing defensive positions along the beaches would be militarily useless.

Tel Aviv (19K/sq mi) has higher population density. So does Hong Kong any many other cities.

Your statement is totally incorrect. Gaza is nowhere close to having one of the greatest population densities in the world. Unless you've never heard of Asia. On the list of highest population densities Tel Aviv rates 44th. Baghdad is #22 with TWICE the density as Gaza. Gaza doesn't even make top 50...it's between Warsaw and Tashkent.

http://www.citymayors.com/statistics...nsity-125.html

You sure as hell CAN defend cities without using civs as cover.

But hey, lets not have facts get in the way shall we?
post #76 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Kind of hard to fight a battle with no battleground (Gaza) left...


The only thing that map shows is that the Arabs have been losing wars against Isreal for 60 years to the point it no longer tries conventional warfare.

The UN established boundries are pretty stupid BUT better than what they ended up with.
post #77 of 303
Forget it. I've gotten tired of arguing my point. And that ends my participation in this thread.
post #78 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Are you referring to tonton when he suggested that it is "ok" to question or I believe tonton used the word condemn the actions of the Israeli government?

That Jews and the Israeli government are not the same thing?

You are not suggesting that to question or condemn the actions of the Israeli government is an act or display of anti-Semitism are you?

Is it ok in your view to question or protest the actions of the Israeli government??

Or is such a venture off the table and out of the question as such an act would automatically indicate anti-Semitism?

Please clear this up for me as your words above confuse the hell out of me.

Fellows

No I am referring to tonton's attempt to 'clarify' i.e. change the meaning of the OP's statements and the original thread title. The OP created a thread titled something like "The jews are committing genocide". While factually questionable at best, the original content and title intentionally made no distinction between jews and the Israeli government. It was a blanket statement. tonton tried to make it a little more palatable. "no one is condemning Jews for the Palestinian genocide. We are condemning the government of Israel." was his first post in the thread and was factually wrong. The OP made no mention of the Israeli government, people, military etc, just jews. Again, it was a blanket statement against jews in general and tonton very poorly tried to make it a little less overt in its context.

As I said, no different that if I posted all blacks were such and such and you came in and defended my statements by clarifying that I only meant those that were such and such.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #79 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Forget it. I've gotten tired of arguing my point. And that ends my participation in this thread.

[soul calibur] Ring Out! [\\soul calibur]

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post #80 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Tel Aviv (19K/sq mi) has higher population density. So does Hong Kong any many other cities.

Your statement is totally incorrect. Gaza is nowhere close to having one of the greatest population densities in the world. Unless you've never heard of Asia. On the list of highest population densities Tel Aviv rates 44th. Baghdad is #22 with TWICE the density as Gaza. Gaza doesn't even make top 50...it's between Warsaw and Tashkent.

http://www.citymayors.com/statistics...nsity-125.html

You sure as hell CAN defend cities without using civs as cover.

But hey, lets not have facts get in the way shall we?

Your argument is utterly bogus. You are referring to cities. Gaza is an entire territory, and Gaza City is the main settlement within that territory. It has an area of 17 square miles, and a population of 450,000, thus a population density of 26,500 per square mile. This is where the Israelis are concentrating their fire power.
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