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Call for retaliation - Page 3

post #81 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Your argument is utterly bogus. You are referring to cities. Gaza is an entire territory, and Gaza City is the main settlement within that territory. It has an area of 17 square miles, and a population of 450,000, thus a population density of 26,500 per square mile. This is where the Israelis are concentrating their fire power.

Then I guess you also mean it is where Hamas is concentrating their activities. After all, as you say, Gaza is larger than just Gaza city, so they could operate in an area not as likely to affect civilians. You are right I guess, if Israel wants to hit back against Hamas they ought to invite them to relocate.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #82 of 303
Hi guys, haven't been here for a while.

Back to commemorate the (hopefully by now at least) mid-point of the biennial cull of Palestinians nicely timed (well done), after 18 months semi starvation.

Like wind up toys just provoke and watch them try to respond before calling in the new 2008 catalogue of kit.


I know you will not wipe Hamas out it is a mistake to think so. I'm sorry for my misinformed friends , Hamas won an election in Palestine.


What happens now is a multifaceted agenda including the security issue (Israel will never feel secure with neighbors - in the same way US was afraid of Saddam), also on the menu is destroying Gazan infrastructure, institutions, hope, along with the normal run-of-the-mill collective punishment.

It could all be so different. However, it will not be so.

Dear E(number) man I hope you are being ironic when you suggest wiping them out. I believe you are educated and so if you are in that position there is even less hope than I imagined. Smacks of there was nothing else to do logically except the 'final' solution. Open your mind please!

Quote:
Why Israel went to war in Gaza
'Are you a target if you voted for Hamas?' Last night Israel sent its ground forces across the border into Gaza as it escalated its brutal assault on Hamas. As a large-scale invasion of the Palestinian territory appears to be getting under way, Chris McGreal reports from Jerusalem on Israel's hidden strategy to persuade the world of the justice of its cause in its battle with a bitter ideological foe

Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
The Observer, Sunday 4 January 2009
Article history
It is a war on two fronts. Months ago, as Israel prepared to unleash its latest wave of desolation against Gaza, it recognised that blasting Hamas and "the infrastructure of terror", which includes police stations, homes and mosques, was a straightforward task.

Israel also understood that a parallel operation would be required to persuade the rest of the world of the justice of its cause, even as the bodies of Palestinian women and children filled the mortuaries, and to ensure that its war was seen not in terms of occupation but of the west's struggle against terror and confrontation with Iran.

After the debacle of its 2006 invasion of Lebanon - not only a military disaster for Israel, but also a political and diplomatic one - the government in Jerusalem spent months laying the groundwork at home and abroad for the assault on Gaza with quiet but energetic lobbying of foreign administrations and diplomats, particularly in Europe and parts of the Arab world.

A new information directorate was established to influence the media, with some success. And when the attack began just over a week ago, a tide of diplomats, lobby groups, bloggers and other supporters of Israel were unleashed to hammer home a handful of carefully crafted core messages intended to ensure that Israel was seen as the victim, even as its bombardment killed more than 430 Palestinians over the past week, at least a third of them civilians or policemen.

The unrelenting attack on Gaza, with an air strike every 20 minutes on average, has not stopped Hamas firing rockets that have killed four Israelis since the assault began, reaching deeper into the Jewish state than ever before and sending tens of thousands of people fleeing. Last night Israel escalated its action further, as its troops poured across Gaza's border, part of what appeared to be a significant ground invasion. And a diplomatic operation is already in full swing to justify the further cost in innocent lives that would almost certainly result.

Dan Gillerman, Israel's ambassador to the UN until a few months ago, was brought in by the Foreign Ministry to help lead the diplomatic and PR campaign. He said that the diplomatic and political groundwork has been under way for months.

"This was something that was planned long ahead," he said. "I was recruited by the foreign minister to coordinate Israel's efforts and I have never seen all parts of a very complex machinery - whether it is the Foreign Ministry, the Defence Ministry, the prime minister's office, the police or the army - work in such co-ordination, being effective in sending out the message."

In briefings in Jerusalem and London, Brussels and New York, the same core messages were repeated: that Israel had no choice but to attack in response to the barrage of Hamas rockets; that the coming attack would be on "the infrastructure of terror" in Gaza and the targets principally Hamas fighters; that civilians would die, but it was because Hamas hides its fighters and weapons factories among ordinary people.

Hand in hand went a strategy to remove the issue of occupation from discussion. Gaza was freed in 2005 when the Jewish settlers and army were pulled out, the Israelis said. It could have flourished as the basis of a Palestinian state, but its inhabitants chose conflict.

Israel portrayed Hamas as part of an axis of Islamist fundamentalist evil with Iran and Hezbollah. Its actions, the Israelis said, are nothing to do with continued occupation of the West Bank, the blockade of Gaza or the Israeli military's continued killing of large numbers of Palestinians since the pullout. "Israel is part of the free world and fights extremism and terrorism. Hamas is not," the foreign minister and Kadima party leader, Tzipi Livni, said on arriving in France as part of the diplomatic offensive last week.

Earlier in the week Livni deployed the "with us or against us" rhetoric of George W Bush's war on terror. "These are the days when every individual in the region and in the world has to choose a side. And the sides have changed. No longer is it Israel on one side and the Arab world on the other," she said. "Israel chose its side the day it was established; the Jewish people chose its side during its thousands of years of existence; and the prayer for peace is the voice sounded in the synagogues."

It was a message pumped home with receptive Arab governments, such as Egypt and Jordan, which view Hamas with hostility. "Large parts of the Muslim and Arab world realise that Hamas represents a greater danger to them even than it does to Israel. Its extremism, its fundamentalism, is a great danger to them as well," said Gillerman. "We've seen the effect of that in numerous responses, in the public statements made by [Egypt's] President Mubarak and even by [Palestinian president] Mahmoud Abbas and other Arabs. This is totally unprecedented."

Indeed, the Egyptian Foreign Minister, Ahmed Aboul Gheit, said his government knew exactly what was coming: "The signs that Israel was determined to strike Hamas in Gaza for the past three months were clear. They practically wrote it in the sky. Unfortunately they [Hamas] served Israel the opportunity on a golden platter."

Also crucial was what was not said. Just a few months ago Livni was talking of wiping out Hamas, but that would be unpalatable to much of the outside world as a justification for the assault. So now the talk is of pressing Gaza's government to agree to a new ceasefire. Occasionally someone has got off-message. A couple of days into the assault on Gaza, Israel's ambassador to the UN, Gabriela Shalev, said it would continue for "as long as it takes to dismantle Hamas completely". Infuriated Israeli officials in Jerusalem warned her that such statements could set back the diplomatic offensive.

In the first hours of the attack, Israel repeated the same messages to the wider world. Livni and the Labour defence minister, Ehud Barak, were widely quoted on international TV. The government's national information directorate sought to focus foreign media attention on the 8,500 rockets fired from Gaza into Israel over the past eight years and the 20 civilians they have killed, rather than the punishing blockade of Gaza and the 1,700 Palestinians killed in Israeli military attacks since Jewish settlers were pulled out of Gaza three years ago.

Lobby groups, such as the British Israel Communications and Research Centre (Bicom) in London and the Israel Project in America, were mobilised. They arranged briefings, conference calls and interviews. The Israeli military posted video footage on YouTube. Israeli diplomats in New York arranged a two-hour "citizens' press conference" on Twitter for thousands of people. At the same time, Israel in effect barred foreign journalists from witnessing the results of its strategy.

Livni has suggested that Israel's assault is good for the Palestinians by helping to free them from the grip of Hamas. "She's basically trying to convince me that they're doing this for my own good," said Diana Buttu, the Palestinian Liberation Organisation's legal counsel and negotiator with the Israelis over the 2005 pullout from Gaza. "I've had some Israeli friends reiterate the same thing: 'You should be happy that we're rooting out Hamas. They're a problem for you, too.' I don't need her to tell me what's good for me and what's bad for me, and I don't think carrying out a massacre is good for anybody."

And when the killing started, Israel claimed that the overwhelming majority of the 400-plus killed were Hamas fighters and the buildings destroyed part of the infrastructure of terror. But about a third of the dead were policemen. Although the police force in Gaza is run by Hamas, Buttu said Israel is misrepresenting it as a terrorist organisation.

"The police force is largely used for internal law and order, traffic, the drug trade. They weren't fighters. They hit them at a graduation ceremony. Israel wants to kill anyone associated with Hamas, but where does it stop? Are you a legitimate target if you work in the civil service? Are you a legitimate target if you voted for Hamas?" she said.

Similarly, while Israel accuses Hamas of risking civilian lives by hiding the infrastructure of terror in ordinary neighbourhoods, many of the Israeli missile targets are police stations and other public buildings that are unlikely to be built anywhere else.

Israel argues that Hamas abandoned the June ceasefire that Jerusalem was prepared to continue. "Israel is the first one who wants the violence to end. We were not looking for this. There was no other option. The truce was violated by Hamas," said Livni.

However, others say that the truce was thrown into jeopardy in November when the Israeli military killed six Hamas gunmen in a raid on Gaza. The Palestinians noted that it was election day in the US, so most of the rest of the world did not notice what happened. Hamas responded by firing a wave of rockets into Israel. Six more Palestinians died in two other Israeli attacks in the following week.

"They were assaulting Gaza militarily, by sea and by air, all through the ceasefire," said Buttu. Neither did the killing of Palestinians stop. In the nearly three years since Hamas came to power, and before the latest assault on Gaza, Israel forces had killed about 1,300 people in Gaza and the West Bank. While a significant number of them were Hamas activists - and while hundreds of Palestinians have been killed by other Palestinians in fighting between Hamas and Fatah - there has been a disturbing number of civilian deaths.

The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights says that one in four of the victims is aged under 18. Between June 2007 and June 2008, Israeli attacks killed 68 Palestinian children and young people in Gaza. Another dozen were killed in the West Bank.

In February, an Israeli missile killed four boys, aged eight to 14, playing football in the street in Jabalia. In April, Meyasar Abu-Me'tiq and her four children, aged one to five years old, were killed when an Israeli missile hit their house as they were having breakfast. Even during the ceasefire, Israel killed 22 people in Gaza, including two children and a woman.

Perhaps crucial to the ceasefire's collapse were the differing views of what it was supposed to achieve. Israel regarded the truce as calm in return for calm. Hamas expected Israel to lift the blockade of Gaza that the latter said was a security response to the firing of Qassam rockets.

But Israel did not end the siege that was wrecking the economy and causing desperate shortages of food, fuel and medicine. Gazans concluded that the blockade was not so much about rocket attacks as punishment for voting for Hamas.

Central to the Israeli message has been that, when it pulled out its military and Jewish settlers three years ago, Gaza was offered the opportunity to prosper. "In order to create a vision of hope, we took out our forces and settlements, but instead of Gaza being the beginning of a Palestinian state, Hamas established an extreme Islamic rule," said Livni. Israeli officials argue that Hamas, and by extension the people who elected it, was more interested in hating and killing Jews than building a country.

Palestinians see it differently. Buttu says that from the day the Israelis withdrew from Gaza, they set about ensuring that it would fail economically. "When the Israelis pulled out, we expected that the Palestinians in Gaza would at least be able to lead some sort of free life. We expected that the crossing points would be open. We didn't expect that we would have to beg to allow food in," she said.

Buttu notes that even before Hamas was elected three years ago, the Israelis were already blockading Gaza. The Palestinians had to appeal to US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice and James Wolfensohn, the president of the World Bank, to pressure Israel to allow even a few score of trucks into Gaza each day. Israel agreed, then reneged. "This was before Hamas won the election. The whole Israeli claim is one big myth. If there wasn't already a closure policy, why did we need Rice and Wolfensohn to try to broker an agreement?" asked Buttu.

Yossi Alpher, a former official in the Mossad intelligence service and an ex-adviser on peace negotiations to the then prime minister, Ehud Barak, said the blockade of Gaza is a failed strategy that might have strengthened Hamas. "I don't think anyone can produce clear evidence that the blockade has been counterproductive, but it certainly hasn't been productive. It's very possible it's been counterproductive. It's collective punishment, humanitarian suffering. It has not caused Palestinians in Gaza to behave the way we want them to, so why do it?" he said. "I think people really believed that, if you starved Gazans, they will get Hamas to stop the attacks. It's repeating a failed policy, mindlessly."

This article was amended on Monday 5 January 2009. We referred to the Israeli government being based in Tel Aviv when it is based in Jerusalem. This has been corrected.
post #83 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by OfficerDigby View Post


Dear E(number) man I hope you are being ironic when you suggest wiping them out. I believe you are educated and so if you are in that position there is even less hope than I imagined. Smacks of there was nothing else to do logically except the 'final' solution. Open your mind please!

Dont get your hopes up, wiping out entire civilizations is his forte. I wonder what kind of psychological disorder is required to side every time with the people who are intent on exterminating everything that crosses their path?
post #84 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by OfficerDigby View Post

Dear E(number) man I hope you are being ironic when you suggest wiping them out. I believe you are educated and so if you are in that position there is even less hope than I imagined. Smacks of there was nothing else to do logically except the 'final' solution. Open your mind please!

Dear Officer Digby. How do you propose that the Israelis stop the rocket attacks?

I don't see the Israelis as being like the Germans in WWII, they are more like the US - and Hamas is like imperial Japan. They need to get a pretty big stick upside the head before they give up "Death to Israel", just like Japan needed to have a few cities burned to the ground before they stopped invading their neighbors.

Regardless of your feelings about the firebombing of Tokyo, or the two atomic weapons used - we needed to either do that or have a ground invasion of Japan in order to stop them from being a hostile nation. Israel faces the same situation with Hamas, kill them or continue to be attacked for the rest of time.
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post #85 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Dear Officer Digby. How do you propose that the Israelis stop the rocket attacks?

I propose they get the fuck off the land that has never belonged to them. Hows that for starters?
post #86 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

I propose they get the fuck off the land that has never belonged to them. Hows that for starters?

Should we give our land back to the indians, also? People like you (and Hamas) are the reason that this problem can't be solved without violence. If you can't see that Israel isn't going anywhere (and neither can Hamas) then people have to be killed. If you and the Hamas leadership were more reasonable, things would be calmer and resolve peacefully.

You, and people like you, are the problem.
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post #87 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Dear Officer Digby. How do you propose that the Israelis stop the rocket attacks?

I don't see the Israelis as being like the Germans in WWII, they are more like the US - and Hamas is like imperial Japan. They need to get a pretty big stick upside the head before they give up "Death to Israel", just like Japan needed to have a few cities burned to the ground before they stopped invading their neighbors.


Try International monitoring of the type that Israel/US has rejected for last 40 years.
Also of settlements and borders..

Gaza is just one large prison IMO. And Hamas is the elected representative. Gazan's have a right to attempt to defend themselves. And also to be treated as humans.

No you're right ethnic cleansing feels so much more appealing. ;-)


Quote:
Hypocrisy, thy name is Blair
Having done the diplomatic groundwork for Israel's assault on Gaza, the quartet's Middle East envoy now talks of ceasefire

Comments (…)

Seumas Milne
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 6 January 2009 16.06 GMT
Article history
The appointment of Tony Blair as George Bush's Middle East peace envoy – well, technically, the US-UN-EU-Russian Quartet's representative – was a masterful stroke of postmodern irony. And his interview on Tuesday morning's BBC Today programme was a reminder of just how spectacularly unsuited for such a role he really is.

Speaking from his suite at the American colony hotel in east Jerusalem – a respite from earning £12m a year on the American corporate speachmaking circuit – the old warmonger appeared to be putting the case for an immediate halt to Israel's bloodbath in the Gaza Strip. But just as in the days when he was Britain's prime minister, nothing was quite what it seemed.

Blair had three main points. First, there could be a ceasefire, he said – but only if there was "clear action" to cut off Hamas's arms and cash supplies through tunnels under the Egyptian border. Second, there had to be Palestinian unity to achieve a Palestinian state – but only "on the right terms". And third, that such a state had to built from the "bottom up" – just as was currently taking place in the northern West Bank, where Palestinians were now "doing" security.

On all counts, his comments reeked of the savage hypocrisy that underpins the west's role in the current carnage. In fact, so long as Hamas survives in Gaza, there will be no ceasefire based on the closure of tunnels because that would amount to the elected administration's unilateral disarmament. Such a demand is therefore simply a call for what Blair described as the only alternative: "a protracted conflict".

As for Palestinian unity, it is indeed essential for any viable settlement. But the US, Britain and the EU have all played a central role in destroying it – by imposing sanctions on the elected Hamas government, sponsoring attempts by its Fatah opponents to challenge it by force and then demanding that Mahmoud Abbas dissolve the Hamas-Fatah unity administration negotiated in Mecca. All this happened when Blair was prime minister.

Finally, the security that Blair says the broken Palestinian Authority is currently "doing" in the West Bank includes the detention of hundreds of Hamas supporters, the banning of Hamas flags and symbols and the suppression of pro-Hamas demonstrations – all by forces trained and paid for by the US and EU. Which hardly reflects either the democratic values or Palestinian unity Blair and his sponsors claim to be promoting.

In reality, far from being any kind of peacemaker, Tony Blair is effectively one of the architects of Israel's war in the Gaza Strip. For months, he has been telling anyone who would listen that Hamas had to be seriously weakened before there could be any progress in the region. Last month, before the Israeli onslaught began, he made clear in an interview with the Israeli Ha'aretz, he believed the western-backed blockade wasn't working and that Hamas would have to be dealt with, probably by force.

As the one-time high priest of the "third way" put it on the radio this week, it was obvious in advance that a war in the overcrowded Gaza Strip would lead to a "humanitarian catastrophe". After the stunning success of such policies in Iraq and Afghanistan, Tony Blair has now got what he wanted in Gaza.

E(number) man correct me if I'm wrong. But somewhere in this thread I think you've stated that the reason Israel is safe is that owns the fifth largest stock pile of nukes.... Why not try them on the home made rocket should work.
post #88 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Should we give our land back to the indians, also? People like you (and Hamas) are the reason that this problem can't be solved without violence. If you can't see that Israel isn't going anywhere (and neither can Hamas) then people have to be killed. If you and the Hamas leadership were more reasonable, things would be calmer and resolve peacefully.

You, and people like you, are the problem.

You are seriously confused.

If you want to draw a parallel with Native Americans - You'd better get it straight in your head that the Isreali occupation of Palestine is paramount to the 'indians' persuading Communist Russia to hand over Texas to them with no say by Americans or Texans and completely against Americans will, having Russia equip them with unlimited amounts of military assisatance and money, having Russia beat the native Texans into the stone age, and then asking them to voluntarily stop lobbing rocks at the new 'Indian' overlords, who only keep them alive as some kind of sick sport.

You're siding with evil.
post #89 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

I propose they get the fuck off the land that has never belonged to them. Hows that for starters?

To whom did it belong? And please be specific which parcel you are referring to.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #90 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

You are seriously confused.

If you want to draw a parallel with Native Americans - You'd better get it straight in your head that the Isreali occupation of Palestine is paramount to the 'indians' persuading Communist Russia to hand over Texas to them with no say by Americans or Texans and completely against Americans will, having Russia equip them with unlimited amounts of military assisatance and money, having Russia beat the native Texans into the stone age, and then asking them to voluntarily stop lobbing rocks at the new 'Indian' overlords, who only keep them alive as some kind of sick sport.

You're siding with evil.

Worst analogy of 2009.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #91 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

and Hamas is like imperial Japan.

I thought I was finished but I have to say that is the most idiotic analogy I ever heard in my life. If there was a Godwin Award for Imperial Japanese comparisons, you won it e1618978.

As far as I know Hamas hasn't overtaken half of the Middle East. That was our job for the last eight years. Look where it got us.
post #92 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

To whom did it belong? And please be specific which parcel you are referring to.

It was never ever occupied throughout all history by the people illegally occupying it and claiming sovereignty over it now. So whomever it belongs to by reasoning only you can apparently determine, it was never occupied or owned by Zionists, Israelis or Jews.

As far as im concerned, by any rational measure - it is Palestine, belongs to Palestinians, and will be returned one day to Palestinians. It was never anyone elses to give away to their Zionist, Israeli, Jewish puppetmasters.
post #93 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

It was never ever occupied throughout all history by the people illegally occupying it and claiming sovereignty over it now. So whomever it belongs to by reasoning only you can apparently determine, it was never occupied or owned by Zionists, Israelis or Jews.

As far as im concerned, by any rational measure - it is Palestine, belongs to Palestinians, and will be returned one day to Palestinians. It was never anyone elses to give away to their Zionist, Israeli, Jewish puppetmasters.

oh. wow. ok. So, Jews never, ever lived, occupied and ruled what is now Israel? Just to be clear, this is what you are saying? Or are you saying that they did, but the people called jews today have no link to the jews of history?

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #94 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

oh. wow. ok. So, Jews never, ever lived, occupied and ruled what is now Israel? Just to be clear, this is what you are saying? Or are you saying that they did, but the people called jews today have no link to the jews of history?

No they didn't and also like you say these people have no link either to the Jews of History.
post #95 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

Its quite unbelievable that people can get to middle age and be so utterly ignorant and brainwashed.

I'm in my late forties and have always tried not to be ignorant and brainwashed. I've lived through Nixon, Reagan, Bush I and Bush II. I should get a medal for that.
post #96 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

I'm in my late forties and have always tried not to be ignorant and brainwashed. I've lived through Nixon, Reagan, Bush I and Bush II. I should get a medal for that.

It really pisses me off just what people are prepared to believe. On one hand I try to be accomodating, tolerant, humanistic and understanding, but when you look out over the vast oceans of mediocre, idiotic, simpletons, who dont care for truth, honesty and integrity...You just wish a big hand would appear and eliminate the shit once and for all.

The entire world revolves around the fact that as long as you can persuade enough stupid people to believe the propaganda, then nothing will change, even if some people do make an effort to find out the truth.
post #97 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

No they didn't and also like you say these people have no link either to the Jews of History.

Well, I guess that explains much of your thought process. If one can simply revise history to suit your beliefs, then anything is possible. Similar revisions were used in the 1930s.

Actually, I have to ask: so, you think the modern people that call themselves jews are are simply frauds. That they simply popped up in Europe at some point, got together said "hey, let's be jews...those pogroms sound like great fun"..

And since you claim no group of jews rules the area now called Israel in the distant past, then the Romans were just confused? When the referred to the area as Judea and then renamed it to Palestine, they were simply making a correction based on the jews there not actually existing? And modern historians are all just in on the scam?

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #98 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

It really pisses me off just what people are prepared to believe. On one hand I try to be accomodating, tolerant, humanistic and understanding,

The funny part is I think you are serious...you honestly believe this of yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

but when you look out over the vast oceans of mediocre, idiotic, simpletons, who dont care for truth, honesty and integrity...You just wish a big hand would appear and eliminate the shit once and for all.

Is it morally incorrect to kill such people? Lets face it, if they are allowed to breed and flourish, there will never be anything but destruction in the world. If we undertake to kill them all and we were wrong, the worst that can happen is that we were no better than them, and the killing would have happened anyway.

my, how accommodating and tolerant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

The entire world revolves around the fact that as long as you can persuade enough stupid people to believe the propaganda

You seem to be making a whole hearted, if poorly thought out, attempt to be living proof of this.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #99 of 303
I just read the War Nerd's opinion on this and as usual, it's spot on.

Just so you don't have to go to Exile Online to read it, here it is...


The War Nerd: Hamas Aint No Hezbollah

By Gary Brecher

Quote:
Whats going on in Gaza now is pretty easy to understand if you think a little bit about the way military trends have been going in the past century-but you also have to be willing to take a cold look at how wars work these days, when theres no such thing as those purely military wars you WW II freaks dream about. (There never really was, but thats another story.)

The Israelis attacked now because of two non-military cycles: the news cycle and the presidential cycle. This was like a war by an astrologer: the stars had to be in exactly the right position before the Apaches could start blasting and the Merkavas could roll.

The most important cycle of all is the news cycle. This war happened during international media dead week, between Christmas and New Year. Ordinary people are drunk or hungover or snowed in, and the people who matter, the media players, are off in Cancun and Phuket, soaking up rum and sun with their blackberries turned off. Theyre not going to bum out their call girls watching the news from Gaza.

And the Israelis wanted a time when everybody was distracted for a simple reason: asymmetrical war isnt pretty. Thats the same reason they wont let camera crews into Gaza. To do this kind of war, you have to kill a lot of civilians, because the whole civilian/military distinction doesnt really apply. If your neighbor is a mid-ranking officer in the military wing of Hamas, the best way to kill him is while he sleeps, before he can arm himself, deploy his men and maybe inflict casualties. Thanks to years of excellent intelligence on Gaza, the Israelis know exactly whos where at pretty much any minute of any day. And they have attack helicopters hovering over it non-stop, ready to send a Hellfire missile down to take out anybody who might help organize a counterattack.

But Gaza is the most crowded slum in the world, so when you send that missile into his tenement apartment at 4 am, its going to kill him, but its also going to kill his wife, their kids (and Gaza has a huge birthrate) and half the block. That makes cold military sense but it doesnt look good on the news.

Of course you could send troops in, the idea being theyre cleaner than missiles, but sending troops into a highrise slum full of people who hate your guts is not such a good idea if youre worried about casualties. And like Ive said before, the IDF has one big weakness: they dont like to take casualties.

So naturally they did what they could to decapitate Hamas from the air first, then with artillery. Besides, the idea that raids by infantry are less bloody than air strikes is pretty dicey anyway. Troops get nervous, they start shooting, pretty soon the collateral damage bill is just as big as it would be with an air strike, only this way the raiding party suffers casualties too.

So it made perfect sense for the Israelis to step up their longterm policy of zapping Hamas cadres from the air, and to do it right now, while nobodys watching TV.

The other cycle is more of a gamble: the presidential cycle. I cant believe nobodys saying the obvious here: the Israelis want to do this now, once and for all, while Bush is still in office. They know that Bush will let them do whatever they want. Bush and Cheney are literally more extreme than about half of the Israeli electorate. Theyve never objected to anything Israel wants to do except when the Israelis wanted to talk to the Syrians. As long as it involves blowing stuff up, Bush is guaranteed to be on their side.

So the planets aligned perfectly for Israel, not so much Age of Aquarius way as Zero Hour, last chance to blow up Gaza before Obama comes in.

Will Obama be more hardnosed with the Israelis? I doubt it. Why would he? Youre not supposed to say out loud that theres a big rich Israeli lobby, but everybody knows there is. And more to the point, whats their counterweight? Who cares about the Palestinians, even in the Arab world, never mind DC? So theres a big net gain to any US politician who backs Israel and no reason at all to back their opponents.

So I dont see why the Israelis are so worried about Obama. Still, a military planners job is to be paranoid and the Israeli staff has decided that since Bush is a sure thing and the new guy is an unknown quantity, why not do it now?

Ill tell you something else: Obamas people are cheering the IDF too, for the timing at least. Dear IDF, Thank you for doing this while Bush is still around to take the heat! Signed, Barack. Thats exactly what Obama meant when somebody asked him about Gaza and he said, Hey, we only have one president at a time!
That tells you something else about this operation: its likely to end before January 20, 2009. Obama doesnt want his big inauguration party bummed out with pictures of dead Arab kids, so the IDF has this thing planned to end sometime in early January.

Of course planning is one thing, execution is another. The IDF planned for a quick clean fight against Hezbollah in 2006, but thats not the way it worked out.

This time the IDF will succeed, at least in the short term, and the campaign will go according to plan. Thats my guess anyway. What we have here is Hamas getting a very hard lesson in why its dangerous to pretend youre Hezbollah when youre not.

Hezbollah fought so well last time around that everybody started getting uppity, and the Israelis didnt like it at all. They werent getting respect. They couldnt destroy Hezbollah, though; the Hezzies are too smart, too big, too well integrated with the locals in Lebanon. Hezbollah has all kinds of advantages that Hamas doesnt have, like great strategic depth, pockets of Shia support all through Lebanon, far from the IDFs reach (unless they tried another fullscale invasion of Lebanon, a real bad idea).

So for more than two years now Israel has had to put up with Hezbollah sitting just over its northern border with a smug little grin on its hairy face, strutting on the rep it made back in 2006-and theres not much the IDF can do about it.

But the worst thing you can do is hide behind your big brother, because what if somebody chooses you out alone? Thats whats happened to Hamas. Theyre trying to be Hezbollah South, woofing at the Israelis, shooting off those stupid backyard cherrybomb rockets that couldnt hit the ground if gravity didnt help outand meanwhile the IDF is in a very bad mood, embarrassed about losing to Hezbollah, bummed about Bush leaving office, and getting poked in the ass nonstop by hardcore settler types wanting them to blow something up right now, dammit!

Its what they call a no-brainer. You may not be able to take out Hezbollah but just look at Gaza: a tiny strip of land, about six miles wide in most places. No strategic depth for Hamas at all. And Egypt hates Hamas like poison, so theyre quietly telling Mossad: Go for it!

Then theres the issue of combat potential, as in Hamas aint no Hezbollah. Hamas is tougher than the PLO; they proved that in the skirmishes over the last few years about who runs the PA. But thats not saying much; one of my grandmothers-not both, just one, Im trying to be fair here-was tougher than the PLO too. And theres a huge, huge difference between scaring off fat sleazy Arafat gangsters by firing in the air and actually fighting the IDF. Hezbollah has somebody doing serious strategic planning; Hamas has a bunch of hotheads. Hezbollah has been bunkering up, training in anti-armor operations, learning to deal with air strikes for years. Hamas believes in yelling at the attack helicopters.

Theyre going down. Now, thats not to say theyll be wiped out, exterminated, whatever. That doesnt happen any more, for reasons Ill discuss in my next column. What were talking about here, what the IDF has in mind, is more what the Romans called decimation: killing enough of the right people to make Hamas weak for five or ten years, which may, just may, be long enough to give Israels allies the PLO/Fatah the edge in the Palestinian Civil War. Thats what this is about, getting your guys to win that war.

Will it work? Depends on the time frame. For a few years, yes; in the long run, Hell no. But if youre the IDF, there are no good options in the long term. Demographics, dude; no way out of that spiral. The short term is all youve got, and in the short term Hamas is going to find out why its not a good idea to pretend youre Hezbollah when you cant back it up.

One cycle he forgot is the Israeli political cycle. The current leading party has lost ground because of the bungle in Lebanon 3 summers ago. Israel wasn't nearly well-enough prepared for the war. And Olmert, the current PM, got caught in a few scandals.

The polls shows his party lagging. If you want to put a political spin on the war, it's that. And War Nerd needs to keep in mind that most of the planning of this operation goes back months, it's not like the IDF decided that Christmas would be convenient for war. The first bombing synced up with graduation ceremony of Hamas security forces.
post #100 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Your argument is utterly bogus. You are referring to cities. Gaza is an entire territory, and Gaza City is the main settlement within that territory. It has an area of 17 square miles, and a population of 450,000, thus a population density of 26,500 per square mile. This is where the Israelis are concentrating their fire power.

First, you're the one touting that 11K/sq mi as the worlds highest density population. It isn't.

Second, if the Israelis were concentrating their fire power on the city itself you'd see a LOT more dead than a few hundred. You appear to have no idea how destructive modern weapons can be.

Third, Hamas IS using the civ population as human shields. There are palestinian eyewitness accounts where they deliberately invite counter-battery fire onto schools and other targets to try to get kids killed.

Finally, as Tulkas pointed out if you care about your own civs you don't fight inside pop centers. This is why many armies retreat out of their own cities rather than have the enemy raze it to the ground.

I don't hold the Israelis blameless but frankly the Palestinians have brought a lot of the misery on themselves. Israel pulled out of Gaza but Fatah pissed away aid money and goodwill until Hamas was the only semi-sane alternative because they created infrastructure. However, only semi-sane because part of their plan involves poking a tiger with toothpicks and getting YOUR children killed when the tiger gets all pissed off as part of their grand "strategy".

Not to invoke Godwin but geez, this is just like the Germans voting for the Nazis because things royally sucked after WWI. Guess what? It sucked even worse after we bombed their cities into rubble.

Israel tried unilateral pull out. It didn't work.
Israel tried leaving behind infrastructure. The Palestinians burned it. It didn't work.
The EU and US threw an assload of money in to Palestine. It didn't work.
Israel tried sanctions against Hamas. It didn't work.

The Palestinians had every opportunity to find lasting peace in this past decade and they consistently screwed over the Israelis and the west. As much as I prefer a peaceful solution the fact is that you aren't going to get anywhere with Hamas in charge. Or for that matter Fatah.
post #101 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

No I am referring to tonton's attempt to 'clarify' i.e. change the meaning of the OP's statements and the original thread title. The OP created a thread titled something like "The jews are committing genocide". While factually questionable at best, the original content and title intentionally made no distinction between jews and the Israeli government. It was a blanket statement. tonton tried to make it a little more palatable. "no one is condemning Jews for the Palestinian genocide. We are condemning the government of Israel." was his first post in the thread and was factually wrong. The OP made no mention of the Israeli government, people, military etc, just jews. Again, it was a blanket statement against jews in general and tonton very poorly tried to make it a little less overt in its context.

As I said, no different that if I posted all blacks were such and such and you came in and defended my statements by clarifying that I only meant those that were such and such.

I think I sort of get what you are trying to say here. Thank you for taking time to make it more clear to me what it was that you were saying.

That said I think what tonton did was not a bad thing. I would argue that the author of the opening post and possibly the thread title were sloppy.

I really don't see any guilt or wrongdoing by tonton by clearing up a wayward and sloppy thread.

I know exactly what tonton means when he suggested that one can condemn the Israeli government for their actions and that not meaning (condemning jews as a whole) rather only the Israeli government.

I think it is an important distinction to clear up.

I was in Paris France having a very frank and friendly discussion with a Hotel manager and she was the sweetest lady in the world but spoke her mind about that in France most French love Americans just not their president. I knew exactly what she was saying and it was not bigoted, racist or any such thing. I completely understood her.

I also completely understand what tonton said. tonton I would argue said nothing which is offensive in any way whatsoever.

Thanks again for clearing up what you mean.

I would just suggest not painting tonton the bad guy for clearing up a meandering thread with his focusing of the condemnation by some NOT against Jews in general but rather the Israeli government.

Find me one person here who is racist or anti-Semitic and I will take great difference with such ignorance and bigotry but tonton did no such thing even by association of replying to such a thread as this one.

You and I both are also adding to this thread mind you.

Again thanks for clearing it up.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #102 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post


The War Nerd: Hamas Aint No Hezbollah

By Gary Brecher

That is a pretty insightful article, I think I will read more on that site.
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post #103 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

First, you're the one touting that 11K/sq mi as the worlds highest density population. It isn't.

Second, if the Israelis were concentrating their fire power on the city itself you'd see a LOT more dead than a few hundred. You appear to have no idea how destructive modern weapons can be.

Third, Hamas IS using the civ population as human shields. There are palestinian eyewitness accounts where they deliberately invite counter-battery fire onto schools and other targets to try to get kids killed.

Got citations for that last claim?

Also, you must have skipped this...

Quote:
But Gaza is the most crowded slum in the world, so when you send that missile into his tenement apartment at 4 am, its going to kill him, but its also going to kill his wife, their kids (and Gaza has a huge birthrate) and half the block. That makes cold military sense but it doesnt look good on the news.

Honestly, none of us can determine what the situation is as far as this subject is concerned, since we aren't there. You can bring up statistics and population density charts, but when a small city is being bombed everywhere, people tend to run around frantically, panic and bunch together for safety. That changes everything.
post #104 of 303
Truth is the first casualty of war. Always. For example:

In Tuesday's fighting, Israeli hit a school which was being used as a shelter, killing 40 and injuring many more. Of course, the IDF came out with the usual generic type statement: "The school was being used by Hamas militants to fire mortars, and we responded by shelling the school". This statement has been dutifully disseminated by the shills in the ultra-biased US corporate mainstream media (with or without fact checking), always assuming that whatever comes from the mouths of the Israeli side is the absolute truth, and all other versions are not. Most readers thus come away thinking: "those Hamas cowards used a school full of civilians as human shields" and the Israelis were responding legitimately".

According to the U.N. Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, however, "there was no Hamas activity in or around the school or the school compound". This has been reported all over the European, middle eastern and US alternative media.

What is the true version? We will probably never know. Who cares anyway.

[neocon] 680 dead, 1.4 million to go.. yeeehaaaawww!!! [/neocon]
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #105 of 303
It's funny. Everytime someone tries to rationalize their Israeli position on this...the Israelis themselves de-bunk it...

Israeli soldiers enter a building with civilains and told them to evacuate to another building.

Civilains evacuate and move to the other building for shelter.

Israel bombs the shelter.

They concentrated their numbers into a single building to better exterminate them.

As I recall, during the conflict with Lebanon in 2006, the Israeli army did almost exactly the same thing.

Only that time the "warnings" were pamphlets dropped from airplanes.
post #106 of 303
Mistakes happen all the time in war. Israeli soldiers even fired and killed their own soldiers. Even today with satellite-precision-bombs, there is no precision and Israel is deliberately risking civilians in Gaza, knowing fully well that regardless how precise the bombs are directed, they are devastating to a whole street-block due to the sheer strength of the bombs.

This tactic of using the airforce and their bombs, as well as tanks in residential neighbourhoods is a warcrime in itself. Imagine the UK had acted that way against the IRA in Ireland or Spain against the ETA or Apartheit-Southafrica against the ANC...

Unfortunately, just like Apartheit-Southafrica, Israel is backed and protected by the US, so that the UN-SC can't condemn and sanction Israel for its obvious oppressive behaviour.

The goal that Israel tries to achieve has only circumstantially to do with Hamas-rockets. They are the justification, but in reality, it is Hamas' having been elected into power that Israel can't tolerate, and which to reverse Israel has tried since then, be it through helping Fatah stage a coup or starving Gaza with blockades.

For months, since the beginning of the latest truce, Israel prepared this operation very carefully, drawing plans, gathering intelligence, preparing the propaganda- and diplomatic front and instructing its army in urban warfare, learning from the mistakes made in the Lebanon-war.

Hamas was merely played into this conflict, just by pressing the right buttons, intensifying the Gaza-blockade during the truce, making raids in the Westbank against Hamas-members, continuing extrajudicial executions...

Now Israel hopes to achieve what Fatah failed to do, dethroning Hamas by weakening and discrediting it considerably so that the Fatah-organization can retake its democratically lost power.

This simple truth, Israel tries to mask with a wall of lies.

Nightcrawler
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post #107 of 303
Sure.

That is clearly the goal, but what is good for the Palestinian people?

It should be up to them to decide, but if lead by an organization that can be played as a fiddle leads to war, perhaps the more tolerable Fatah is a better choice?
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #108 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Got citations for that last claim?

Yes.

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...870087,00.html

"Some Jabalya refugees at the school said they saw a small group of militants firing mortars near the school and running away, the Associated Press reported. A Gaza resident contacted by TIME said there is a citrus grove not far from the school. "Most likely, the militants fired from there," said the resident, who requested anonymity."

Yes the UN "claims" there were no hamas present. But how the heck can they know? The UNWRA staff is completely overwhelmed and untrained for this kind of observation anyway because it doesn't take all that long to setup mortars, pump a few rounds out and try to run the hell away before counter-battery fire flattens your position.

The biggest problem with UN sanctuaries is that they are completely undefended and completely idiotic. Any "sanctuary" should have a heavily armed presence to make all potential aggressors not want to go near the damn place. Hamas OR the IDF. Anyone let in has to be completely disarmed. Enough of a demilitarized zone needs to be established so no one can claim that fire came from nearby and sufficient sensors allocated to be able to document any fire anywhere in the vicinity.

But noooo....UNRWA hangs its stupid ass out in the wind and wonders why the hell they get used for propaganda and getting innocents killed as pawns on the international stage. I have zero doubts that the UNRWA folks wouldn't lie to cover up this kind of clusterfuck. "We told the IDF where we were". No kidding. Did you have any protection whatsoever as being used by Hamas? No. Therefore they will never find any evidence of Hamas being there.

631 dead is a amazing amount of restraint given the bleeding heart liberal claim that they are fighting in the densest concentration of humanity in the world. You can kill 600 people in a shopping mall in the US with a single freaking plane load of bombs if you wanted to.

Well you could if were weren't in the middle of a recession anyway.

Trust me...the IDF is showing far more restraint in Gaza than the Russians did in Chechnya. Anywhere from 50K-200K dead there. Jeez, talk about cluster munitions and mines...there's a half million of them in Chechnya.
post #109 of 303
Quote:

Thanks, appreciated.

Quote:
631 dead is a amazing amount of restraint given the bleeding heart liberal claim that they are fighting in the densest concentration of humanity in the world.

RESTRAINT? Dude, one in four of the dead are children. Still, you are being ignorant that Gaza has a density factor as far as size is concerned. Also ignorant of the claims (and there are more than one) of the IDF herding these CIVILIANS into so-called "safe areas" and then KILLING THEM.

Quote:
You can kill 600 people in a shopping mall in the US with a single freaking plane load of bombs if you wanted to. Well you could if were weren't in the middle of a recession anyway.

Don't let the paranoid delusions sway you from the topic here.

Quote:
Trust me...the IDF is showing far more restraint in Gaza than the Russians did in Chechnya. Anywhere from 50K-200K dead there. Jeez, talk about cluster munitions and mines...there's a half million of them in Chechnya.

Again there's no comparison.

Gaza population: 353,115

Chechnya population: 1.1 million

That's comparing the casualties the Israeli military is incurring in Gaza with the casualties the U. S. military (and private contractors) incurred in Iraq and Afghanistan combined.

Oh wait...
post #110 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Well, I guess that explains much of your thought process. If one can simply revise history to suit your beliefs, then anything is possible. Similar revisions were used in the 1930s.

Actually, I have to ask: so, you think the modern people that call themselves jews are are simply frauds. That they simply popped up in Europe at some point, got together said "hey, let's be jews...those pogroms sound like great fun"..

And since you claim no group of jews rules the area now called Israel in the distant past, then the Romans were just confused? When the referred to the area as Judea and then renamed it to Palestine, they were simply making a correction based on the jews there not actually existing? And modern historians are all just in on the scam?

E-

Thankyou. I am well aware of what lies and propaganda have been fed to the populace for millenia. I was also taught the same bullshit, and believed it for the majority of my life.

Then I decided to find out the truth. Artman even posted a lengthy piece on it. However even the Arab who wrote it has succumbed to modern propaganda and historical revisionism.

Let me quote a bit

Quote:
"Only once, during the empire of David and Solomon, did the Jews ever control nearly—but not all—the land which is today Palestine. This empire lasted only 70 years, ending in 926 BC. Only 250 years later the Kingdom of Judah had shrunk to a small province around Jerusalem, barely a quarter of modern Palestine."

Even that is wrong. But it is closer to the truth than what the propaganda would have us believe.

You might also want to bear in mind, that the 'empire' of David and Solomon is complete fantasy. Like all the Bible, these Characters are ASTROLOGICAL, they only exist "physically" as constellations in the SKY. The philosophy of the stories may be different and have personal meaning - but nonetheless, the ASTROLOGICAL land of ISRAEL promised to the ASTROLOGICAL protagonists.

Adios.
post #111 of 303
Almost 700 dead and 3000 injured in Gaza to date. Scale this up to an equivalent attack on the US and this would represent 130,000 dead and 600,000 injured. Such are the kind of casualty figures that the likes of Tulkas and Vinea patently approve of? Is this the last hurrah of the Bush/Cheney/Rice/Chertoff etc. gang of thugs before they make their symbolic exit and start exerting their influence behind the scenes?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #112 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Sure.

That is clearly the goal, but what is good for the Palestinian people?

It should be up to them to decide, but if lead by an organization that can be played as a fiddle leads to war, perhaps the more tolerable Fatah is a better choice?

Fatah is more experienced with Israel but also way more corrupt, and its current leadership seems to be ready to give in on crucial palestinian rights.

There was a time when the PLO managed to reach out to Israel to make a comprehensive peace, when the PLO achieved to gain massive support and acceptance by the palestinians as a representative and negotiator for its rights.

But Israel didn't want peace with the palestinians and a secular PLO that was ready to negotiate and had the full support of the palestinians was seen as a much bigger threat than the uncompromising, militant PLO it had to deal with previously, which it could ignore and brandmark as a terrorist-organization and fight against it.

What did Israel do? It allowed an islamistic organization to grow roots in Gaza, which later formed Hamas, according to the longtested idea "divide and conquer". The logic was to give palestinians a religious alternative to the secular PLO, thus dividing the palestinians in the longrun and undermining their political appeal and will to come to a comprehensive peace-agreement.

Israel knew fully well due to its own history and religion that islamists would in contrast to seculars never agree to a compromised peace-agreement, and that while it bogged down the PLO in fruitless peace-negotiations, while robbing them of their land and ressources, causing palestinians to side with islamistic militants, which played into Israel's idea to portray palestinians as violent and disrupting peace-negotiations.

Nightcrawler
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post #113 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

E-

Thankyou. I am well aware of what lies and propaganda have been fed to the populace for millenia. I was also taught the same bullshit, and believed it for the majority of my life.

Then I decided to find out the truth. Artman even posted a lengthy piece on it. However even the Arab who wrote it has succumbed to modern propaganda and historical revisionism.

Let me quote a bit



Even that is wrong. But it is closer to the truth than what the propaganda would have us believe.

You might also want to bear in mind, that the 'empire' of David and Solomon is complete fantasy. Like all the Bible, these Characters are ASTROLOGICAL, they only exist "physically" as constellations in the SKY. The philosophy of the stories may be different and have personal meaning - but nonetheless, the ASTROLOGICAL land of ISRAEL promised to the ASTROLOGICAL protagonists.

Adios.

MarkUK, is that you? No, he was not nearly as hate filled.

Interesting solution...to simply invalidate a people by denying they ever existed. The Jews are simply a myth. Makes things easier I guess. Revise away...

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #114 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Well, I guess that explains much of your thought process. If one can simply revise history to suit your beliefs, then anything is possible. Similar revisions were used in the 1930s.

Actually, I have to ask: so, you think the modern people that call themselves jews are are simply frauds. That they simply popped up in Europe at some point, got together said "hey, let's be jews...those pogroms sound like great fun"..

And since you claim no group of jews rules the area now called Israel in the distant past, then the Romans were just confused? When the referred to the area as Judea and then renamed it to Palestine, they were simply making a correction based on the jews there not actually existing? And modern historians are all just in on the scam?

So is it a claim to land in perpetuity, no matter how old or continuously occupied? If so this raises enormous possibilities of endless conflict throughout the world when everyone lays claim to every piece of land previously possessed at some point in time by any ancestor.

What of the Turk, Syrian, or countless migrants who made the land their home? What of the individual who is of mixed ethnicity? The Arabic Christian or Arabic Jew, do they fight themselves, or do they have a greater claim both ancient and modern?

When is a claim too old or too new?

Do the Jews who drove out the previous occupants in ancient history step aside for anyone who can claim their ancestry?

Lets face it we have two sides claiming the same land for whatever reasons either side chooses to fit their own argument. All argued by the legal firm of Whodidwot to Whodontwelike.

The fact that both sides believe in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth makes up for a whole lot of perpetual facial reconstruction.
post #115 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

RESTRAINT? Dude, one in four of the dead are children. Still, you are being ignorant that Gaza has a density factor as far as size is concerned.

They killed 2700 people in two buildings in NY. If the Israelis wanted to they could cause immense casualities by attacking the camps directly.

No ignorance. Have you been to a city with that high a density? Drop a bomb anywhere in Hong Kong and you will kill a lot of folks much less over 12 days. Market area - a few hundred dead easy. Same for any decent sized apartment building.

Quote:
Also ignorant of the claims (and there are more than one) of the IDF herding these CIVILIANS into so-called "safe areas" and then KILLING THEM.

That's the same report from before. Same article actually.

Quote:
Don't let the paranoid delusions sway you from the topic here.

No paranoia just logic. If the Israelis wanted to kill women and children in job lots there are these things called refugee camps and these things called incindiary bombs. "Herding" a couple families from one building to another is an idiotic method for genocide especially with the world press looking on.

The reality is probably that the IDF troopers were informed that the area they were in were going to get hit. They warned them and moved on. Then later the situation changed and a previously safe area got hit. No one to warn them. No one knew they were there besides some troops that moved on and probably already forgot about them.

Do you seriously believe, regardless of what the evil Zionists think of Palistinians, that they are so bleeding stupid that they want pictures of dead babies on US newspapers? And if they were going to accept that kind of propaganda disaster that they wouldn't simply do as the Russians did? Kill everyone you can to minimize the number of possible eyewitness accounts and screw world opinion?

Quote:
Again there's no comparison.

Gaza population: 353,115

Chechnya population: 1.1 million

Try again. Population of the Gaza strip is 1.4M. The population of Gaza City is 350-400K.

Grozny has a population of 210K. Down by nearly half over the past decade. The comparison is direct. If you cannot accept that the Israelis have shown far far more restraint than the Russians you simply don't want to believe reality.

But hey...only the west can be bad guys.

Interesting however is in that AP article that the beginning numbers don't mesh with the ending numbers:

"About 300 of the more than 670 Palestinians killed so far are civilians, according to Palestinian and U.N. figures. Of those killed, at least 130 are children age 16 and under, says the Gaza-based Palestinian Center for Human Rights, which tracks casualties."

"Since the start of the ground offensive Saturday, more than 120 Palestinian civilians have been killed out of a total of more than 600 deaths overall in 11 days of fighting, according to U.N. and Palestinian officials."

PCHR report more dead children than the UN or Palestinian officials reports dead civilians.

Even as poorly as that article is written the first line is clear that the author agrees that Hamas is using the civ population as shields:

"The rising civilian death toll in Israel's campaign in Gaza highlights the pitfalls of Israel's powerful army using lethal force against often invisible Hamas guerrillas taking cover among civilians."

Blame the Israelis for many things. But also accept that Hamas is using women and children as weapons and directly instigating their deaths to modify world opinion. It's one of their most effective weapons and to think that they aren't using it is naive.
post #116 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

They killed 2700 people in two buildings in NY. If the Israelis wanted to they could cause immense casualities by attacking the camps directly.

No ignorance. Have you been to a city with that high a density? Drop a bomb anywhere in Hong Kong and you will kill a lot of folks much less over 12 days. Market area - a few hundred dead easy. Same for any decent sized apartment building.

Indeed, if Israel wanted it could kill hundreds of thousands of palestinians per week, but that is not Israel's goal as it would undermine Israel's legitimacy and destroy Israel from the outside (where it would be treated as a pariah-state and the vital political US-support would vanish for) and from inside (as israelis would probably stop wanting to be israelis with such blood on their hands espescially considering their own experience with genocide, that has become an important part of Israel's identity).

Nonetheless Israel is risking killed civilians as collateral damage by using the airforce and tanks in residential areas.

Hamas is certainly hiding in residential areas knowing that it constrains Israel's force, and for a guerillia-force with only machineguns and rocketpropelled grenades at hand it is the only logical tactic beside surrender.

Hamas can't win militarily, it just has to survive long enough that pictures of guaranteed civilian casualties around the world, and killing as many israeli soldiers as possible that the homefront mourns (which mourns only about killed israeli soldiers) that much, that combined will press Israel's government that much to back down again.

With the media and by the blood of its own people, it can counteract a bit the gross difference in military capabilities.

To ask Hamas to stand clear of residential areas and to fight in the open is pure nonesense, as it would be the same as asking them to shoot themselves in the head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Interesting however is in that AP article that the beginning numbers don't mesh with the ending numbers:

"About 300 of the more than 670 Palestinians killed so far are civilians, according to Palestinian and U.N. figures. Of those killed, at least 130 are children age 16 and under, says the Gaza-based Palestinian Center for Human Rights, which tracks casualties."

"Since the start of the ground offensive Saturday, more than 120 Palestinian civilians have been killed — out of a total of more than 600 deaths overall in 11 days of fighting, according to U.N. and Palestinian officials."

PCHR report more dead children than the UN or Palestinian officials reports dead civilians.

You have to read more carefully, the first quote lists the casualties since the beginning of the air-offensive, while the latter quotes lists a subset, namely the casualties since the ground-offensive began.


Today, the UN decided to stop delivering aid to Gaza in protest against Israel's bombardment of an aid-truck, killing the drivers, that drove during the supposed daily ceasefire-window and with permission of the israeli army!

Another shocking violation by Israel is being reported as well, namely that the Red Cross found small children not yet able to walk beside their dead mothers and other wounded persons in an attack-zone, left alone by the israeli soldiers, despite manning bases nearby. Israel has not respected the obligation to care for the wounded and helpless civilians.

Another report by amnesty international details how israeli soldiers use civilians for cover. No joke, not only Hamas is using this tactic, the israeli ground-forces as well: They enter palestinian homes and use them as bases, from which they sniper and shoot mortars, while they keep the inhabitants inside.

Source for all three reports: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7817926.stm

Another thing that paints Israel in not so rosy picture are the bombardments of civilian, governmental infrastructure, like the interior-ministry or police-headquarter, where graduants of the police-force were killed.

The last accusation for today from me is the bombardment of palestinian homes in order to destroy suspected smuggling-tunnels, espescially in Rafah, near the egyptian border. Residents were called by leafletters to leave their homes, that they would be bombarded through the air, so that at least the casualties remain not too high, but what the hell? Suspecting tunnels without verifying it and simply bombing homes is simply wrong, and I'm sure that Israel won't pay the owners the equivalent of the damage, so that they can rebuild their homes and replace their possessions lost therein, not to speak of those killed therein that didn't make it out in time.

Like I said, Israel is similar to Apartheit-Southafrica and the world will close its eyes to that reality as long as the political backing and support by the US doesn't stop.

Nightcrawler
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post #117 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Do you seriously believe, regardless of what the evil Zionists think of Palistinians, that they are so bleeding stupid that they want pictures of dead babies on US newspapers? And if they were going to accept that kind of propaganda disaster that they wouldn't simply do as the Russians did? Kill everyone you can to minimize the number of possible eyewitness accounts and screw world opinion?.

That's a bleeding stupid argument saying that they wouldn't be so bleeding stupid. History is full of people doing bleeding stupid things.

The Israelis "accidentally" targeted UN troops in the recent Lebanese war, presumably to remove witnesses.

The Israelis also wouldn't have been so bleeding stupid as to attack their greatest ally, but torpedoed the CIA spy ship the USS Liberty in 1967.

They wouldn't have been so bleeding stupid as to be complicit in the massacre at the Shatila refugee camps in Beirut in 1982.

They wouldn't have been so bleeding stupid as to bomb the King David Hotel in 1947 murdering many British officials as well as fellow Jews.

They wouldn't have been so bleeding stupid as to start the nuclear arms race in the Middle East, nor to spy on their own allies the Americans, nor the many other underhanded acts they have perpetrated around the world in the interests of their own "security".

Or maybe they just count on people being so bleeding stupid that they'll ignore it all.
post #118 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by gastroboy View Post

So is it a claim to land in perpetuity, no matter how old or continuously occupied?

The Arabs are still claiming ownership of Israel, even though they haven't "owned" it since 1950.
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post #119 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by gastroboy View Post

So is it a claim to land in perpetuity, no matter how old or continuously occupied? If so this raises enormous possibilities of endless conflict throughout the world when everyone lays claim to every piece of land previously possessed at some point in time by any ancestor.

What of the Turk, Syrian, or countless migrants who made the land their home? What of the individual who is of mixed ethnicity? The Arabic Christian or Arabic Jew, do they fight themselves, or do they have a greater claim both ancient and modern?

When is a claim too old or too new?

Do the Jews who drove out the previous occupants in ancient history step aside for anyone who can claim their ancestry?

Lets face it we have two sides claiming the same land for whatever reasons either side chooses to fit their own argument. All argued by the legal firm of Whodidwot to Whodontwelike.

The fact that both sides believe in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth makes up for a whole lot of perpetual facial reconstruction.

true enough..there will always be debate as to how bar back into history one can go to validate or invalidate claims.

This is not what nordkapp is claiming. He is stating that there never was a jewish presence in the area, never was jewish people at all and the the jews of today are simply liars in their claim to be jews at all. But, no, nothing racist at all about this is there? Par for the course for him and lunocrat and tonton. Simply try to erase them from history and they don't exist...therefore they have no claim at all and anyone that makes a claim is therefore automatically more legitimate.

Also, once you take norkapp and his ilk out of the picture, then your question still has relevance. How far back to you go to back up a claim? I don't know. The jewish presence in the area is really not in question (well, not by most). The jewish presence has been continual, though not their dominance of the area. They never gave up their claim to the area. They were conquered, they were dispersed, they area was renamed to dilute their influence in the area, but they never really left. I wonder, had the Romans not renamed the area Palestine and it was called Judah or Israel or whatever throughout post-roman history, would their claim to the area be as questioned.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #120 of 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

If the Israelis wanted to they could cause immense casualities by attacking the camps directly.

With nuclear weapons no doubt! Proof positive of Israeli restraint.
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