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iPhone in Europe; YouTube on iPhone; ZFS 'not happening'

post #1 of 77
Thread Starter 
Speaking to the Italian press on Monday, Apple's Europe boss stated that iPhone will be available only alongside a cellular contract when it arrives overseas later this year. Meanwhile, it looks like there's sorry news on the 'Flash on iPhone' and 'ZFS on Mac OS X' fronts.

Apple Europe frontman Pascal Cagni won't say precisely when and with which provider Apple plans to launch its iPhone in Europe, but when it does arrive it won't be offered with pre-paid plans that are popular in parts of the region.

Cagni told the Italian-language seeteB.IT that the Apple handset is slated for availability "at the end" of 2007 and will only be sold with a service contract.

Translation of relevant parts (thanks, Chris):

Q1) could you be more specific about the previous announcement that
the iPhone will be available in Europe in the 'fourth quarter'?

A: "We still don't know, the [release] period will be toward the end
of the year"

Q2) Have you chosen a carrier for Europe?

A: About the carrier, we still don't have any news to provide you. I
can say that for Italy, those of you very accustomed to pre-paid,
there will be issues with the iPhone.

Q3) then a more pointed question is asked: "...does this mean Apple
will pursue the same subscription only strategy in Europe & Italy (as
it is doing the US)?"

A: Yes, I can confirm that it has been decided that it will only be
offered by subscription"

iPhone to support YouTube

Meanwhile, there's sure to be some dashed hopes if iPhone arrives later this month without support for Adobe's Flash media format. Right now, Flash is looking more like a "maybe" than a guarantee.

Apple chief executive Steve Jobs told the New York Times that "you might see" Flash support come to iPhone, but YouTube support would be present regardless.

"Yeah, YouTube -- of course," he said. "But you don’t need to have Flash to show YouTube. All you need to do is deal with YouTube. And plus, we could get ‘em to up their video resolution at the same time, by using h.264 instead of the old codec."

Jobs also confirmed that iPhone won't support Java. "[It's] not worth building in," he said. "Nobody uses Java anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain."

ZFS mystery

More certain appears to be the state of ZFS on Mac OS X, or lack thereof. Brian Croll, Apple's senior director of product marketing for the Mac OS X, told InformationWeek that "ZFS is not happening," when asked whether the Sun-developed Zettabyte File System would appear in Leopard.

Instead, Leopard will reportedly use Apple's current hierarchical file system, called HFS+.

Strangely, just five days prior Sun chief executive Jonathan Schwartz boasted during a company event that Apple would announce at its developers conference a plan to make ZFS the default file system for Leopard.

Update: An Apple spokesperson contacted InformationWeek on Tuesday seeking to clarify Croll's statement. "Croll was apparently supposed to indicate that ZFS would be available as a limited option, but not as the default file system."

The publication is reportedly drafting a separate story to note Apple's mis-statement and "hopefully to reveal more about how ZFS would work in Leopard."
post #2 of 77
MF... Just.. MF.

If ZFS got axed because of Sun's comments, well a pox on Sun. And Apple too, but mostly on Sun.
post #3 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevalierMalFet View Post

MF... Just.. MF.

If ZFS got axed because of Sun's comments, well a pox on Sun. And Apple too, but mostly on Sun.

If ZFS was to be the primary filesystem, it's doubtful that ZFS would be pulled because of Sun's early statement. If, however, it was to be included as an optional extra, perhaps there is indeed a pissing match taking place. Note Job's disparagement of Java as well.
post #4 of 77
Shame about ZFS, although I am sure it is because it isn't viable. From what I understand, HFS+ doesn't support copy on write, so taking a snapshot with time machine will be much more resource intensive.

I really hope they can get it into Leopard Server, as that is where it really has the value.
post #5 of 77
Good call re Java. As far as "primary" or "default" goes, I couldn't care less. I just want a bootable supported option. If that comes along as an unsung feature, I'll be happy, but if they just let it die, well, FnA.
post #6 of 77
"[It's] not worth building in. Nobody uses Java anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain." + ZFS mysteriously not in the WWDC build = one pissed off Steve Jobs and one sad Sun

It's clear now. I'll never understand Steve...considering this isn't a consumer feature per se. What does he care if Schmidt jumped the gun?

Steve, you sack of shit, give us ZFS.

Eric, why'd you have to open your big mouth?
post #7 of 77
Java is the defacto mobile application environment for mobile phones, especially games, but also some real applications like MSN Messenger. Not having a J2ME environment on the phone is shortsighted ...

... apart from the support for web hosted AJAX applications that utilise iPhone GUI interface components via some XUL-like technology.

I still think they're avoiding it because it's a Not In Here technology. The only real failure of Java has been as a web interface, i.e., applets, which died a deserved death due to limitations and start-up delays. It's still far more versatile than flash though, but the latter is simpler and quicker for most uses. Sadly most of these uses are advertising, hence I'm not too upset if the iPhone doesn't support it.

As for ZFS, I think it is a shame in the long run if it is not supported, and I think it would prove very useful in Leopard Server as an option. Of course file systems need extensive testing, especially complex ones like ZFS, however Apple's implementation of some ZFS features in a layer above the filesystem also requires testing - but is simpler for people who update their OS rather than reinstall.
post #8 of 77
So while there may not be ZFS in OS X Leopard for desktops and laptops, it's probably a good thing. Disk capacities just don't warrant it, IMHO. However, it would make sense for OS X Leopard for Servers.

- Roland
post #9 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

"[It's] not worth building in. Nobody uses Java anymore. Its this big heavyweight ball and chain." + ZFS mysteriously not in the WWDC build = one pissed off Steve Jobs and one sad Sun

Steve said that before Eric spilled the beans. I agree though, Java support on the iphone I don't think is necessary.

Quote:
Eric, why'd you have to open your big mouth?

Apparantly, a letter went to Sun asking all employees to STFU regarding ZFS in leopard the EXACT day Eric said what he said. What a fucking idiot - we all know what happened to ATI. This is probably more to set an example for other companies that deal with Apple.

But we don't know yet - there was lots not discussed - including independant resolution, so hopefully there will be more information coming out during the week.
post #10 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

It's clear now. I'll never understand Steve...considering this isn't a consumer feature per se. What does he care if Schmidt jumped the gun?

Steve, you sack of shit, give us ZFS.

Eric, why'd you have to open your big mouth?

You probably already caught this after you sent it, but it was Jonathan Schwartz from Sun who spilled the beans, not Eric Schmidt from Google.
post #11 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by subatomicsoul View Post

You probably already caught this after you sent it, but it was Jonathan Schwartz from Sun who spilled the beans, not Eric Schmidt from Google.

Regardless of who said it, there's no way ZFS got axed because of this statement. It probably just wasn't a good use of time for the Leopard developers, considering that boot was going to be a major undertaking. The last thing Apple needs is another Leopard delay.
post #12 of 77
How can Safari on the iPhone be a full version if it has no support for Java or Flash. Java is great for games. I wouldn't expect it to be in the iPhone since it works like shit in OSX.
post #13 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hattig View Post

Java is the defacto mobile application environment for mobile phones, especially games, but also some real applications like MSN Messenger. Not having a J2ME environment on the phone is shortsighted ...

I agree although I think its also down to the control apple is under by cingular, they aren't allowing ANY type of 3rd part application that doesn't involve going online (which costs users money).
Just a few applications come to mind that would affect revenues for cingular: VOIP (possibly using wifi hot spots), sms compression, multi-player gaming over blutooth or wi-fi and Im sure there are many more.

They could at least give us some kind of sandbox variant of cocoa or something!
post #14 of 77
Um, this iPhone news (i.e. Jobs interview) is six months old. Why are rumor sites reporting it like it's straight out of WWDC?

That means the fate of Flash on the iPhone should very well be decided by now.
post #15 of 77
I wonder if this is another one of those infamous Steve Jobs "I'll show you to spoil my keynote!" events? I remember Steve pulling ATI cards out of Macs last minute when ATI released a keynote spoiler years ago. ;-)
-Jeff
post #16 of 77
You can load Skype on WM5 and make VoIP calls over WiFi. Cingular has not blocked this. You still have to pay for your plan. It would only help those who usually go over their minutes a lot, and have constant access to WiFi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by digiology View Post

I agree although I think its also down to the control apple is under by cingular, they aren't allowing ANY type of 3rd part application that doesn't involve going online (which costs users money).
Just a few applications come to mind that would affect revenues for cingular: VOIP (possibly using wifi hot spots), sms compression, multi-player gaming over blutooth or wi-fi and Im sure there are many more.

They could at least give us some kind of sandbox variant of cocoa or something!
post #17 of 77
It's a lot easier to swap one compatible video card for another at a moments notice, but if Apple was truly planning on using ZFS then that means they had not only put a ton of work into developing, testing, and supporting it, but they also were planning features based on it that will now not see the light of day for months, if not years. No way that scenario plays out.
-- Jason
Reply
-- Jason
Reply
post #18 of 77
f'ing stupid not to have ZFS. Even as a non-boot option having raidz is a extremely useful thing.

Leopard...seriously losing interest.
post #19 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by the cool gut View Post

Steve said that before Eric spilled the beans. I agree though, Java support on the iphone I don't think is necessary.

Apparantly, a letter went to Sun asking all employees to STFU regarding ZFS in leopard the EXACT day Eric said what he said. What a fucking idiot - we all know what happened to ATI. This is probably more to set an example for other companies that deal with Apple.

But we don't know yet - there was lots not discussed - including independant resolution, so hopefully there will be more information coming out during the week.

I don't think it makes any sense for ZFS project to be blackballed for this. Does Sun get any money for ZFS? It's an open source licence and standard as far as I can tell, with no restrictions on integrating with commercial, closed source projects. If anything, I would speculate that there were some implementation issues that need to be handled first.
post #20 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

f'ing stupid not to have ZFS. Even as a non-boot option having zraid is a extremely useful thing.

Leopard...seriously losing interest.

And the alternative you have in mind is---?
post #21 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjoec123 View Post

Regardless of who said it, there's no way ZFS got axed because of this statement.

exactly, i would think that file systems are not as trivial as, say ichat.
post #22 of 77
I am not sure why Steve made that statement about using Ajax and being safe.

See below:
http://www.networkworld.com/news/200...lications.html
http://searchwebservices.techtarget....209682,00.html
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/13986
http://www.horwith.com/index.cfm/200...ity-discovered
http://www.cbronline.com/article_new...9-8D89DD0E6606

Unless the developers know how to code securely, they are just going to step on their own ...k
post #23 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagerDragon View Post

I am not sure why Steve made that statement about using Ajax and being safe.

See below:
http://www.networkworld.com/news/200...lications.html
http://searchwebservices.techtarget....209682,00.html
http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/13986
http://www.horwith.com/index.cfm/200...ity-discovered
http://www.cbronline.com/article_new...9-8D89DD0E6606

Unless the developers know how to code securely, they are just going to step on their own ...k

I think the point is, the iPhone will be at risk to these attacks *regardless* since there is internet access. Forcing developers to use the internet to develop apps just prevents adding another layer of risk. I'm not saying I like this, but I think that is the way they are thinking.
post #24 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

"[It's] not worth building in. Nobody uses Java anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain." + ZFS mysteriously not in the WWDC build = one pissed off Steve Jobs and one sad Sun

It's clear now. I'll never understand Steve...considering this isn't a consumer feature per se. What does he care if Schmidt jumped the gun?

Steve, you sack of shit, give us ZFS.

Eric, why'd you have to open your big mouth?

Huh? What?. Nobody uses Java anymore?. I just realized this is what Jobs said, not the poster. Ok, Jobs, calm down. You sound stupid.
post #25 of 77
I hope that ZFS is coming in 10.6. By the time it ships consumers will have terabyte hard drives.

Apple is showing it doesn't understand markets outside NA by restricting the iPhone to long term contracts with a single carrier. Europeans expect the freedom to swap SIM cards and carriers.
post #26 of 77
If id doesnt have flash, im might just go and kill someone!!!
post #27 of 77
This is extremely disheartening and unfortunately we're going to have to pull our plans for Leopard for our plans for the storage needs. We had hoped to use Leopard Server in place of Solaris so that we'd have a unified server and storage arrangement, but this is sadly going to be shelved as I'm sure many will also be shelving this aspiration. <sigh>
post #28 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by subatomicsoul View Post

You probably already caught this after you sent it, but it was Jonathan Schwartz from Sun who spilled the beans, not Eric Schmidt from Google.

Yes Schartz...my bad. I get mixed up sometimes since Eric Schmidt worked for Sun before Google. And obviously because they share the same first 3 last name letters.
post #29 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

"[It's] not worth building in. Nobody uses Java anymore. Its this big heavyweight ball and chain." + ZFS mysteriously not in the WWDC build = one pissed off Steve Jobs and one sad Sun

It's clear now. I'll never understand Steve...considering this isn't a consumer feature per se. What does he care if Schmidt jumped the gun?

Steve, you sack of shit, give us ZFS.

Eric, why'd you have to open your big mouth?

There is no possible way steve jobs had ZFS pulled from the WWDC leopard Preview dvds 5 days prior to the event. These were sent to the presses weeks ago. Sure I wouldn't put it passed steve to have 3000 dvds reprinted cause someone opened their mouth about something, but 5 days before the event? no way.

 

 

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post #30 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Jobs also confirmed that iPhone won't support Java. "[It's] not worth building in," he said. "Nobody uses Java anymore. Its this big heavyweight ball and chain."

Nobody uses the iPhone anymore. No local apps, requires the Internet to do everything through Safari. There are cheaper phones with a web browser plus real development capabilities. Its this big heavyweight ball and chain.
post #31 of 77
Man, this might be a deal breaker for me. I'm really looking for a full web browser for my next phone. It's down to 8525 and the iPhone right now. This might have just put the 8525 on top.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpiddly View Post

If id doesnt have flash, im might just go and kill someone!!!
post #32 of 77
Can everyone please STFU over the whole ZFS thing? Yeah it would be nice to have, but lets all face it, Apple needs to sell Macs to more consumers and not businesses to grow market share (businesses being terribly slow in updating their hardware/software). Leopard is still going to be a great operating system w/o ZFS, and thats all most people will care about. The whole non-sense of Jobs pulling ZFS out of Leopard is just that. My bet is that Schwartz either has no clue what he's talking about, or Apple had toyed with the idea of using ZFS but didn't want to make any radical changes to disrupt the launch date.

As for iPhone in Europe, I have a feeling that its not Apple but the potential carriers that want the contract clause. No major carrier is going to risk having thousands of people buy the phone with out a deep discount on the price, only to see them walk off and use it with another carrier. In fact, that scenario would only help Apple's bottom line by selling more units.
post #33 of 77
You must be a student or a kid without a job. Since when did businesses stop updating their hardware. They might go a few rounds with old software, but IME, most get fairly new hardware quite often. I guess if the jobs requires the latest, they it's a must to update.
Quote:
Originally Posted by floccus View Post

Can everyone please STFU over the whole ZFS thing? Yeah it would be nice to have, but lets all face it, Apple needs to sell Macs to more consumers and not businesses to grow market share (businesses being terribly slow in updating their hardware/software). Leopard is still going to be a great operating system w/o ZFS, and thats all most people will care about. The whole non-sense of Jobs pulling ZFS out of Leopard is just that. My bet is that Schwartz either has no clue what he's talking about, or Apple had toyed with the idea of using ZFS but didn't want to make any radical changes to disrupt the launch date.

As for iPhone in Europe, I have a feeling that its not Apple but the potential carriers that want the contract clause. No major carrier is going to risk having thousands of people buy the phone with out a deep discount on the price, only to see them walk off and use it with another carrier. In fact, that scenario would only help Apple's bottom line by selling more units.
post #34 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

I hope that ZFS is coming in 10.6. By the time it ships consumers will have terabyte hard drives.

Apple is showing it doesn't understand markets outside NA by restricting the iPhone to long term contracts with a single carrier. Europeans expect the freedom to swap SIM cards and carriers.

When Apple went from HFS -> HFS+ it was from 8.0 -> 8.1. It could be possible that Apple slips this in 10.5.1 (I know it's an incremental build vs a rev), but Apple can update whatever they want when they do updates. Who knows, maybe they can slip it in before launch?

I honestly don't care, HFS+ has been VERY good to me since 8.1... I'm happy with it. I know ZFS has it's benefits but HFS+ is tried and true on the Mac system as a format.

 

 

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post #35 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjwill246 View Post

And the alternative you have in mind is---?

Tiger works just fine. There are still folks on Panther. If I get a new macbook for my dad I guess it will come with Leopard but if Leopard ships without zfs I'll push back plans for a mac based home entertainment system because there's no way I'm ripping terrabytes of info to anything less than a raid-z and I don't want to hassle with or pay for a h/w raid.
post #36 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by floccus View Post

Can everyone please STFU over the whole ZFS thing? Yeah it would be nice to have, but lets all face it, Apple needs to sell Macs to more consumers and not businesses to grow market share (businesses being terribly slow in updating their hardware/software). Leopard is still going to be a great operating system w/o ZFS, and thats all most people will care about. The whole non-sense of Jobs pulling ZFS out of Leopard is just that. My bet is that Schwartz either has no clue what he's talking about, or Apple had toyed with the idea of using ZFS but didn't want to make any radical changes to disrupt the launch date.

As for iPhone in Europe, I have a feeling that its not Apple but the potential carriers that want the contract clause. No major carrier is going to risk having thousands of people buy the phone with out a deep discount on the price, only to see them walk off and use it with another carrier. In fact, that scenario would only help Apple's bottom line by selling more units.

Now common floccus, lets hold our breath a little longer. For all interested, check out the zfs discussion threads over on the open solaris mailing lists:

http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermai...ne/028733.html

http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermai...ne/028730.html

I'm not going to give up ZFS on Mac OS X until the very last trumpet sounds for Leopard and even then it may come in a dot update. It's too critical for "Dekstop" users to simply ignore once they understand what they're getting out of it. PLUS, do you have any idea as to how much trouble this will save Apple in customer technical support, hard drive replacements and so forth? This will take a huge ball and chain off of Apple in that regard and its associated expenses (who knows if they've caught that vision...).
post #37 of 77
I think my biggest complaint about ZFS right now is there won't be any repair utilities on os x right away. With HFS+ I haven't had too many issues since it came out, maybe 4-5. A few days ago I did a random fsck on my drive and it was hosed, fsck wouldn't fix it. I knew Disk Utility and fsck are cousins but I tried booting off the cd and trying it anyways... same thing, wouldn't repair the catalog. So I tried Disk Warrior, didn't work. Finally I tried Drive Genius, worked PERFECTLY. Took 7 repair attempts but it got it. Long story short, it will take time before these utilities are tried and true for repair attempts. And yes I back up my stuff nightly, but it's installing all the apps / unix stuff that takes forever and I want to avoid.

 

 

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post #38 of 77
I'd guess that since it's been obvious that Apple has been at work on zfs that it's still coming. Journaled HFS didn't just show up, woo crowds, and become the default OS. It came in over time. The same will likely occur with zfs.
post #39 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647 View Post

I think my biggest complaint about ZFS right now is there won't be any repair utilities on os x right away. With HFS+ I haven't had too many issues since it came out, maybe 4-5. A few days ago I did a random fsck on my drive and it was hosed, fsck wouldn't fix it. I knew Disk Utility and fsck are cousins but I tried booting off the cd and trying it anyways... same thing, wouldn't repair the catalog. So I tried Disk Warrior, didn't work. Finally I tried Drive Genius, worked PERFECTLY. Took 7 repair attempts but it got it. Long story short, it will take time before these utilities are tried and true for repair attempts. And yes I back up my stuff nightly, but it's installing all the apps / unix stuff that takes forever and I want to avoid.

The point of ZFS is no fscking and, if you're willing to take the size hit for mirroring or raid-z, self healing.

http://www.opensolaris.org/os/commun...faq/#whynofsck

Vinea
post #40 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647 View Post

I think my biggest complaint about ZFS right now is there won't be any repair utilities on os x right away. With HFS+ I haven't had too many issues since it came out, maybe 4-5. A few days ago I did a random fsck on my drive and it was hosed, fsck wouldn't fix it. I knew Disk Utility and fsck are cousins but I tried booting off the cd and trying it anyways... same thing, wouldn't repair the catalog. So I tried Disk Warrior, didn't work. Finally I tried Drive Genius, worked PERFECTLY. Took 7 repair attempts but it got it. Long story short, it will take time before these utilities are tried and true for repair attempts. And yes I back up my stuff nightly, but it's installing all the apps / unix stuff that takes forever and I want to avoid.

Well emig647, the point of ZFS is that you will never again need any disk utilities. Perhaps a defrag tool, but that may be unlikely and I'm sure that the excellent blokes at iDefrag will have us covered if that need is real.

Truly, I'm a network admin and adore ZFS on Solaris. It is out of this world and has put my mind at ease for data loss. I never have to worry again with raidz. HOWEVER, even for single drive machines its quite nice as you have a few SUPER handy functions that benefit the most humble home user:

First, ZFS will tell you when you have data corruption and need to replace your drive even if SMART is not working as it checksums your data. It will tell you if data is corrupted and what file/piece is corrupt so that you don't have to wonder.

Second, it has ditto blocks. These actually can keep more than one copy of your data on a single drive! This can also be handy, especially if you have a certain set of data that is particularly important.

Third, ZFS has a "send" function for backup that trumps anything else you've seen:
http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/819...7ht6qsc?a=view

Take a look around! It is a wonderful world in which to live if you've got ZFS in place.
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