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The Dock "floor" is the worst UI idea Apple has ever had - Page 2

post #41 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali View Post

I HATE this new dock ! I just HATE the false 3D dock with reflection ! And I hate this transparent menu bar ! GEEZ C'MON APPLE !

thanks for adding your eloquent if not informative piece of poignant conversation to the discussion. there's a lot to build on with this comment.
post #42 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

OK.

So: the translucent menu bar doesn't bother me that much, I'll wait and see if it works for me.

The reflective floor on the Dock, on the other hand, is a grotesque aberration that must be done away with.

They've been doing that reflection thingy on iChat haven't they? Certainly is in the new one.

Quote:
The Dock floor has no earthly reason to be, beyond a little flash. Worse, it's a particularly clunky, poorly thought out kind of flash that just kind of sits there and says "Hey! I'm vaguely 3D! And reflective! Whatever!"

The UI has always faked 3D to lesser and greater degree. Buttons, scrollbars and other UI elements have always had a 3D look to them. The entire UI is vaguely 3D.

As far as consistency of depth...eh...I don't see it as a big deal. Nor do I see it as a confusing metaphor that requires any new cognitive load on the user. The only bad thing is the reduced contrast on the menu.

As to whether Apple still cares about usability...um...do they still have a world class usability team? I mean there are folks at Microsoft research I've heard of in the UI world (like Bill Buxton) and there are a boatload of ex-Apple UI experts but um...I dunno who's at Apple.

There are folks given they have some gesture patents but hmm...no one of the stature of Tog or Raskin come to mind...am I missing someone obvious?

In '89 Tog had said that apple had spent $50M on the Apple UI R&D. They certainly have the money to do so in 2007 but are they?

Vinea
post #43 of 195
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

They've been doing that reflection thingy on iChat haven't they? Certainly is in the new one.

Yeah, but I kind of chalk that up to "application space", like Time Machine. I don't really care for those implementations either, but at least there are some conceptual and functional arguments to be made, and they aren't strictly speaking part of the OS look and feel.

Worse are those applications use of 3D space, which seems to be completely arbitrary.

Quote:
The UI has always faked 3D to lesser and greater degree. Buttons, scrollbars and other UI elements have always had a 3D look to them. The entire UI is vaguely 3D.

All of that strikes me as "texture", rather than 3D. There's no implication that any functionality is happening on a a different plane than the desktop, just that the front plane of the desktop has a bit of "thickness" to it.

Quote:
As far as consistency of depth...eh...I don't see it as a big deal. Nor do I see it as a confusing metaphor that requires any new cognitive load on the user. The only bad thing is the reduced contrast on the menu.

Again, it's not the actual look or functionality of the thing (although I think it looks really awkward) but what it implies about Apple's intent for the UI. If they are going to start introducing 3D elements "here and there" without any concern for what that space really is, in terms of the OS GUI or HIG, we can pretty much forget about the whole idea of a presiding "metaphor", which is to say: Windows.

Quote:
As to whether Apple still cares about usability...um...do they still have a world class usability team? I mean there are folks at Microsoft research I've heard of in the UI world (like Bill Buxton) and there are a boatload of ex-Apple UI experts but um...I dunno who's at Apple.

There are folks given they have some gesture patents but hmm...no one of the stature of Tog or Raskin come to mind...am I missing someone obvious?

In '89 Tog had said that apple had spent $50M on the Apple UI R&D. They certainly have the money to do so in 2007 but are they?

Vinea

That is precisely my larger concern, something like a 3D dock shelf being symptomatic.

Isn't the seamless, elegant, intuitive interaction of parts the reason a lot of us are on the Mac platform, in the first place? Isn't the idea of an OS as a "place" that "makes sense" something that keeps us here?
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post #44 of 195
I like the new Dock.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #45 of 195
Would this be an improvement do you think?



original:



I basically made the dock floor smaller and black, then I made the menu transparent with white text but with a slight hint of black to show it up more and also balance out the dock.

Apple use black reflections most and I don't know why they chose white for this.
post #46 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Would this be an improvement do you think?

No, sorry. I like what apple has done. I just hope to God Safari and other apps don't have to stay above it, like they do currently when the dock isn't hidden.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #47 of 195
Sorry, I don't like the new dock - the floor is just clutter I don't need. What's worse, I keep my dock on the left hand side, and the new dock just looks rediculous on the side. Oh well, I hope you can revert to the old style somehow.
post #48 of 195
I'm a sideDocker too, but I dunno... I think it's kind of cool. It'll be like having a bunch of little Spideyicons clinging to the side of the building, ready to swoop down and webify email from my manager.

What? Why are you all looking at me like that?
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post #49 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post

I'm a sideDocker too, but I dunno... I think it's kind of cool. It'll be like having a bunch of little Spideyicons clinging to the side of the building, ready to swoop down and webify email from my manager.

What? Why are you all looking at me like that?

That's because Spiderman is so spring 07. It's all about Transformers now. Get with it.
post #50 of 195
Thread Starter 
So what does anyone think about the fact that this comes right out of Sun's Looking Glass demo?

Did an Apple designer just see it, and say "cool", or does it suggest anything more?
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post #51 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedillydotcom View Post

cool ideas and i like the reflective floor but what i wonder about is how does this new dock look on either side of the window rather than at the bottom. i dont even use my dock at the bottom of the screen. i have WAY more screen real estate width wise. mine, like many other people, is on the right because im right handed and autohid because bouncing icons are obnoxious to a degree. with the current transparency, i cant even see the dock so its never obnoxious. i wonder how it will affect daily use with autohide and such.

but yeah, the top bar isnt just transparent, its also manipulating colors / contrast. im not a huge fan of that idea. i'd have much rather seen them add some consistency to their design by making it too reflective by default and have a toggle for "transparent or reflective" under appearances so we could choose our flavor.

Yechhh... I want the dock and the top nav bar (whatever it's called) to be consistently boring. If it's taking my attention away from my main work area, then it has no business in OSX, unless it's the child-friendly edition.

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post #52 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I've explained my concerns in some detail. If you don't share them, feel free to not participate in this thread, noob.

Grow the hell up. Dissension is participation in a debate. Your concerns complaining about 3D'ish UI concerns.

What matters is whether the system has been made more accessible and behaviors are more predictable and aide in making one more productive.

If you want to join the HIG at Apple I suggest you write a dissertation on how it can be improved?

CC: Tim Wasko. He's always looking for folks to add to the brainstorming.

P.S. He was a great guy to work with at NeXT and Apple so unless he turned into a complete prick he might even respond to your emails.

Network your ideas within Apple and leverage them to get a job.

If you're not in City Hall you'll never fix it. [according to your view it's in need of an overhaul.]
post #53 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Yechhh... I want the dock and the top nav bar (whatever it's called) to be consistently boring. If it's taking my attention away from my main work area, then it has no business in OSX, unless it's the child-friendly edition.

I want a dwrite to turn off the Top Menu bar and give me my Openstep Menu system, personally.
post #54 of 195
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Grow the hell up. Dissension is participation in a debate. Your concerns complaining about 3D'ish UI concerns.

What matters is whether the system has been made more accessible and behaviors are more predictable and aide in making one more productive.

If you want to join the HIG at Apple I suggest you write a dissertation on how it can be improved?

CC: Tim Wasko. He's always looking for folks to add to the brainstorming.

P.S. He was a great guy to work with at NeXT and Apple so unless he turned into a complete prick he might even respond to your emails.

Network your ideas within Apple and leverage them to get a job.

If you're not in City Hall you'll never fix it. [according to your view it's in need of an overhaul.]

So, dissension is part of the debate, but me having a bone to pick with the UI is rightly addressed by my getting a job at Apple, or I should just STFU?

It seems to me that "whether the system has been made more accessible and behaviors are more predictable and aide in making one more productive" is exactly the angle I've been discussing this from, so I'm not sure what your point is.
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post #55 of 195
The black is definetly better than the white, but I'm still undecided if it's an improvement in any case....
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post #56 of 195
The black looks less like a dock and more like a hole in the desktop. Add to that the fact that it's way too reflective (as in 100% reflectiveness), and we have a problem. I say stick with the white.
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post #57 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali View Post

I HATE this new dock ! I just HATE the false 3D dock with reflection ! And I hate this transparent menu bar ! GEEZ C'MON APPLE !

Define true 3D please.

I personally have nothing against new Dock. I just hope there will be option to make menu bar opaque.
post #58 of 195
adda:

Quote:
It fundamentally changes the desktop metaphor, from more or less flat with flat windows lying on top of each other, to "3D space about an inch deep".

Ding! They're working towards a 3D appearance for the workspace. That was my first thought when seeing it. I don't really like it to be honest.
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post #59 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

OK.
The Dock floor has no earthly reason to be, beyond a little flash.

I agree with you. Apple's demo of the Desktop is embarrassing. The Dock floor is all form without any function: it takes away even more desktop space (placing the icons further up the screen instead of the bottom, even if you hide the Dock), is probably a waste of processing space (useless reflections) and adds little or no functionality. Why would anyone drag a window below the dock just to see the window's reflection? I am actually embarrassed for Apple for thinking that such a "useless" feature is worthy of a demo.

On the other hand, I think that, overall, Leopard will be a good upgrade. Hopefully Leopard will continue the trend from 10.1-10.4 and continue to be more responsive/faster, and the finder looks like a considerable improvement. I'll reserve my final judgment until I start using it, but I think Leopard will be better than Tiger.
post #60 of 195
I think Apple has a long-term plan for the UI but has to implement it piece by piece due to technical and practical reasons.

Practical reasons:
1 - Going immediately from a 2D to 3D desktop might be too much for people to handle, but if affects/techniques are added gradually then users do not have to learn a new way of doing things, but an "improved" way. This will be similar to Expose` and Spotlight in that they weren't revolutionary or even needed, but once you use them it is tough not to have them.

Technical reasons:
1 - Hardware: needs to be able to create/render the desired effects
2 - Software: needs to be able to get hardware to create/render effects

When you move items around your screen or play games and move around in them, nothing, and I mean NOTHING, moves even though it looks like it. What actually happens is individual pixels change colors, but since they are so close together we see "real" objects so the appearance of movement is perceived. When it comes to software, developers need to figure out how to make their applications use 3D affects to enhance its usability, even if it means making the application look and act even more 2D than it would without 3D capabilities. We saw how the new iChat can separate you from what is behind you so how long will it be until the iSight camera will get sensors so a person can be viewed in true 3D, zits, boogers, and all? Will the image of the person eventually be their own window so the only screen space used is what space they occupy?
post #61 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by the cool gut View Post

Sorry, I don't like the new dock - the floor is just clutter I don't need. What's worse, I keep my dock on the left hand side, and the new dock just looks rediculous on the side. Oh well, I hope you can revert to the old style somehow.

Why would the vertical (or side) dock have a vertical dock floor?

Couldn't the dock floor remain horizontal and beneath the bottom icon, allowing the icons to be stacked upon the dock floor?

Just asking.
post #62 of 195
The reflection is completely unnecessary but the 3D dock is very functional in my opinion (but only when you apply it to stacks). Stacks show the icons of its contents layered on top of each other. This means you could replace the single applications on your dock with Stacks.

I could delete my Safari icon and create a Browser stack with Safari, Firefox, Opera, Camino, Shiira and OmniWeb inside. Then I could have an iLife stack next to it with all the iLife apps and so on. That means I can house pretty much all of my apps in the dock in dedicated categories.

I get frustrated with the navigation of Overflow. I have to open Overflow and then select a category and then select an app. The new dock allows me to perform the same tasks quicker. Click the relevant stack and select my weapon of choice. Done.
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post #63 of 195
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post #64 of 195
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post #65 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewis View Post

You know that's a damn interesting idea. Give Quicksilver a try though. Thanks to that I never keep a single application in my Dock except the ones I'm using right now.

Sebastian

I asbo-lutely love Quicksilver but I'd still prefer this as a solution for launching my apps.
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post #66 of 195
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post #67 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewis View Post

w00t another Quicksilver user

I don't get why you would use a Dock at all other than force quitting the occasional app if you could just use Quicksilver....

Sebastian

I kno it sound crazy

Quicksilver is super smart at pretty much everything it does but it doesn't feel at all natural to me. I launch it and play with it occasionally if I'm super busy in multiple projects but I'd rather drag my hagged mouse round the screen and point and shoot. The Keyboard is a pain in my ass.
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post #68 of 195
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post #69 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewis View Post

You are crazy...

I've trained my hands to use Quicksilver as a natural extension of them when I'm on a computer and it's the most common way for me to launch ANYTHING.

Whenever I use a computer and Quicksilver isn't installed it's like losing an entire limb

Sebastian

That kind of dependancy is not good for your health!!!!
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post #70 of 195
The reason Quicksilver is not seeing anymore development is because the superior performance of Leopard's spotlight (in comparison to Tiger's spotlight) QS will become redundant, just like Konfabulator.

Sure it's pretty. I guess. I can definitely live without it.
post #71 of 195
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post #72 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazabrit View Post


Quicksilver is super smart at pretty much everything it does but it doesn't feel at all natural to me.

Not sure 'smart' is the right word - QuickSilver still can't automatically create smart folders for every filetype on your hard drive like LaunchBar can. That & the fact it's stil slower than LaunchBar keep me from switching
post #73 of 195
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post #74 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster

The black is definetly better than the white, but I'm still undecided if it's an improvement in any case....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karelia View Post

The black looks less like a dock and more like a hole in the desktop. Add to that the fact that it's way too reflective (as in 100% reflectiveness), and we have a problem. I say stick with the white.

Ok here are some new ones:









original again for reference:



I added a drop shadow on the menu so that it shows up no matter what background it's on (hence the image with the white square). It's not great on white but I doubt many people will have a pure white backdrop. Outlined fonts don't look very good.

I made the reflection on all of them at 50%. In the third one, I reduced the size of the Dock more dramatically in image 3 and I thought I'd prefer it but I actually don't. I think Apple's one is clearly too big but if it's too small, it might as well not be there at all.

Now that I see that setup with the white in image 2, I'm not sure I prefer the black in image 4 now either.

As we all know though, whatever happens, Apple won't let us choose what we do with the desktop. It's their way or no way at all. If they say there's to be a transparent menu or huge dock then that's how it will be.
post #75 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewis View Post

Neither can the Finder and that's supposedly built in! I tried to create a Folder of PDFs and it's so damn clunky. Then again, why create smart folders when everything on your HDD is a Command+Space away!

Well, that's easy. Say you're looking for an Excel, Logic, Quartz Composer document, but you can't remember the name. Or you're looking for the OpenType version of a font. LaunchBar can automatically show me a list of filetype related documents of every kind of filetype on my hard drive. Even when you do remember the document name - it's still a handy feature, and one I use often.
post #76 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

So what does anyone think about the fact that this comes right out of Sun's Looking Glass demo?

Did an Apple designer just see it, and say "cool", or does it suggest anything more?

Lets not get carried away here. I think it is Sun taking the "Dock" concept here. All Apple has done is taken the White background and turned it into a floor. There are probably 100 versions of the dock at Apple HQ.
post #77 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by the cool gut View Post

Lets not get carried away here. I think it is Sun taking the "Dock" concept here. All Apple has done is taken the White background and turned it into a floor. There are probably 100 versions of the dock at Apple HQ.

Oh, you should see #57. Hot-ness.
post #78 of 195
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post #79 of 195
I'm very organised myself as well, but when it comes to more lesser used or more obscure programs, forgetting a document name is not all that uncommon. And like I said, sometimes it easy having a complete overview of all filetype related documents. I happen to use Logic Pro and often do versions of a song, like mix 1, mix 2 etc. Being able to open a particular mix almost instantly is a godsend. I'm surprised really tat something like that isn't built into Quicksilver yet.

I'm familiar with Papers, and although it's quite good, I'm currently using Yep (and eagerly awaiting v2, which will support a whole range of document formats). Meanwhile I've become quite addicted to tagging files with Punakea, a Finder replacement / add-on (whatever you want to call it). Seriously recommended!
post #80 of 195
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Although, admittedly, using some random element from a theoretical UI is a funny way to express it....

Looking Glass is not theoretical, you can download the installers for Linux and Solaris. Requirements: 1.4 GHz or faster CPU, 512MB RAM, 3D accelerated GPU with at least 32MB VRAM and driver support for OpenGL 1.3 or greater.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

I added a drop shadow on the menu so that it shows up no matter what background it's on (hence the image with the white square). It's not great on white but I doubt many people will have a pure white backdrop. Outlined fonts don't look very good.

Cool, the translucent menu bar should be user configurable (font color and font size). I hope it's optional, I don't really want a translucent menu bar to begin with.
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