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International iPhone rumors: Germany, France and the UK - Page 2

post #41 of 65
There is an even bigger problem with Apple selling a phone to the European and Asian markets, a problem that i struggle to see being addressed, namely iTunes. The promise of 3G opened up a new business model for the mobile phone networks one that was previously unavailable to them under the old technology, the future was clear though as displayed by the rise of Broadband connections that enabled the Internet Service Providers to start becoming content providers as well as bandwidth providers.

There is a reason why the 3G licences in the UK sold for billions of pounds, 3G delivers such good data rates that it would be possible to start selling music, videos and TV shows over the network, a potentially bigger revenue stream that just selling minutes, the networks knew this and wanted a piece of the action.

There has been a change in the attitude of the mobile phone industry in Europe of late, The market has always been controlled and owned by the manufacturers, Nokia, Siemens and Ericsson have made the phones that people wanted to buy, they have been the brand that people bought into. But now the carriers are trying very hard for this to reverse, Orange want you to buy into Orange not Nokia, the networks want to own the customer and therefore have a bigger say in which technology is deployed to enable them to sell more services accross the network. The mobile networks want to only sell phones that will give them the market to sell content to, this is where their money is going to come from. Minutes are a commodity now, just like consumer ADSL is, minutes and mobile data packages could even become (or has become?) a loss leader in the chase for long terms contracts with the promise of media sales.

So the question is what has iPhone got to offer these networks? Will they be able to sell Music or TV shows to their iPhone customers? I think iTunes already takes care of that and the fact that the iPhone does not even support 3G means that even if Apple allowed them to sell content to iPhone customers they cannot anyway as the network would not support it. So what else does that leave for the networks? Selling data packages, this is already becomming commodity so why on earth would a network want to sell this phone at all?

The only reason i can think of is to gain market share, i.e. exactly what AT&T are trying to do. If you can churn enough customer onto your network from your competitors then you can try and keep those customers and then sell them a new phone in the future that will allow you to sell them content. As i said in an earlier post, In Europe the lure of the iPhone is probably not going to be enough to churn enough customers over to a new network, the market is more advanced, the majority of customers do stay loyal to their network, The networks reward people heavily for loyalty. There are a wide choice of advanced, smart phones on the market that means the iPhone while obviousley a great looking phone and a big leap forward in areas such as multi touch, the slow speeds it supports is exactly what the networks are not looking for.
post #42 of 65
I believe selling it in the UK without 3G or HSPD is a massive error. It simply will not be useable in anything like the form it is advertised in, at least as a web device - data charges without 3G in the UK are absolutely crippling; you'd be talking about hundreds a month at least to use the thing any amount.

I think we'll see it updated to reflect the market here in Europe before it comes out. They've had the US one finalised a good while; I'm sure they've been staying busy adding to it for our pleasure!
post #43 of 65
Many carriers and other critics have dismissed the iPhone by simply looking at the paper specs and extrapolating from their experiences what appeal of the iPhone was going to be. Perhaps that's why Verizon passed on the iphone when Apple made the pitch to them. Don't make that mistake. The user experience is extraordinary. Smart carriers will try to get the deal with Apple and make it as exclusive as they can. In that way 'churn' can be reduced. How else do you differentiate yourself from your competitors? While Europe has a better 3g network than the US, I still think european consumers will be attracted to the iPhone despite it's limitations. It'll still be a better experience for users than what currently exists in Europe, no matter what network it's on.
post #44 of 65
Waiting two minutes for a page with any graphics on it to load will not be what anyone sees as any sort of "good experience".

I SO WANT IT TO BE GREAT.
post #45 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphyweb View Post

O2's 3G coverage is not nearly as good as 3, Vodafone or Orange you are right, but am confused by the "lack of Edge" comment. No-one has Edge in the UK or Europe for that matter. GPRS is the 2.5G data standard in Europe and is far too slow for browsing of web pages.

Sorry to contradict but EDGE (we call it 2.75G) because it's better than GPRS but clearly not as fast as 3G is present in most of Europe. I only know France where Bouygues Telecom and Orange carry it, but according to an article on Wikipedia gives a list.

thanks
Sebastien

* Orange has EDGE networks in Belgium, France, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, UK, Moldova (see Orange Moldova), Romania and Switzerland.
* T-Mobile

Single country operators:

* Austria - Mobilkom Austria provides an EDGE network [1]
* Azerbaijan - Azercell has EDGE network in Baku, the capital.
* Belarus - Velcom is constructing EDGE network and has partly opened it [2]
* Belgium - BASE (mobile) (almost nationwide)
* Bulgaria - Mobiltel has EDGE coverage in the South part and will gradually expand it in the North part of the country in 2007.
* Croatia - VIPnet has full EDGE coverage [3]
* Czech Republic - Vodafone has large EDGE coverage, including all the main cities, O2 Czech Republic uses EDGE at new cells.
* Denmark - Telia has EDGE coverage in 98.7% of the country
* Finland - TeliaSonera and Elisa Oyj have large EDGE coverage including all the main cities; also Dna Finland is constructing a large EDGE/UMTS network and has partly opened it
* France - Bouygues Télécom has now an EDGE Network that covers 95% of the population; it is the largest EDGE implementation in France [4]
* Georgia - Geocell has EDGE networks [5]
* Germany - Vodafone and O2 are currently upgrading to EDGE regions with no UMTS coverage, T-Mobile finished upgrading in spring 2007
* Hungary - Pannon GSM have a wide coverage of EDGE, even in some rural areas in addition to major cities and motorways
* Iceland - Siminn has EDGE coverage
* Ireland - Meteor (mobile network), is upgrading its existing 2.5G Network to EDGE throughout the country in 2006/07; also Vodafone Ireland, has an EDGE network where GPRS is supported.
* Italy - TIM supports EDGE wherever GPRS is already supported; also Wind is upgrading the existing network to EDGE, while it is already available in several cities
* Jersey, Channel Islands - Jersey Telecom has EDGE coverage
* Latvia - LMT has an EDGE network since 2005
* Lithuania - Bite Lietuva has a nationwide EDGE network in the country, and was one of the first to launch it in Europe (December 2003)
* Moldova - Moldcell has EDGE networks in large cities [6]
* Netherlands - Telfort had full EDGE coverage, however this was phased out as of July 2007.
* Norway - Telenor and Netcom both operate separate, nation-wide networks. Both have complete EDGE coverage.
* Poland - Era andPlus have EDGE coverage.
* Russia - MegaFon has partial EDGE coverage.
* Serbia - Telenor Serbia has partial EDGE coverage
* Slovenia - Si.Mobil - Vodafone has EDGE 90% coverage, all major settlements are covered [7]
* Sweden - Telia/TeliaSonera has EDGE coverage
* Switzerland - Sunrise a subsidiary of TDC has EDGE that cover 99% of the population and was first with EDGE in the country; also Swisscom thru Swisscom Mobile's EDGE (Enhanced Data for Global Evolution) network has EDGE networks that cover 99% of the population.
* Turkey - Turkcell and Avea has EDGE coverage.
* Ukraine - UMC was the first mobile operator in the country and today provides for more than 16 millions of subscribers an opportunity to communicate using EDGE; also Kyivstar, Ukraine's largest mobile operator with more than 20 million subscribers, offers EDGE in selected cities and plans to extend coverage nationwide in 2007
post #46 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by britwithgoodteeth View Post

It's clear that your iPhone's "be a dick" setting is working fine!

oh getting a tad jealous about the iphone across the pond are we i am not trying to be a dick as much as suggesting that one should get beyond being lazy but perhaps you are not too bright to figure that out

ps not sent from my iphone and i hope you like my lack of caps and punctuation
post #47 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphyweb View Post

There is an even bigger problem with Apple selling a phone to the European and Asian markets, a problem that i struggle to see being addressed, namely iTunes. The promise of 3G opened up a new business model for the mobile phone networks one that was previously unavailable to them under the old technology, the future was clear though as displayed by the rise of Broadband connections that enabled the Internet Service Providers to start becoming content providers as well as bandwidth providers.

There is a reason why the 3G licences in the UK sold for billions of pounds, 3G delivers such good data rates that it would be possible to start selling music, videos and TV shows over the network, a potentially bigger revenue stream that just selling minutes, the networks knew this and wanted a piece of the action.

There has been a change in the attitude of the mobile phone industry in Europe of late, The market has always been controlled and owned by the manufacturers, Nokia, Siemens and Ericsson have made the phones that people wanted to buy, they have been the brand that people bought into. But now the carriers are trying very hard for this to reverse, Orange want you to buy into Orange not Nokia, the networks want to own the customer and therefore have a bigger say in which technology is deployed to enable them to sell more services accross the network. The mobile networks want to only sell phones that will give them the market to sell content to, this is where their money is going to come from. Minutes are a commodity now, just like consumer ADSL is, minutes and mobile data packages could even become (or has become?) a loss leader in the chase for long terms contracts with the promise of media sales.

So the question is what has iPhone got to offer these networks? Will they be able to sell Music or TV shows to their iPhone customers? I think iTunes already takes care of that and the fact that the iPhone does not even support 3G means that even if Apple allowed them to sell content to iPhone customers they cannot anyway as the network would not support it. So what else does that leave for the networks? Selling data packages, this is already becomming commodity so why on earth would a network want to sell this phone at all?

The only reason i can think of is to gain market share, i.e. exactly what AT&T are trying to do. If you can churn enough customer onto your network from your competitors then you can try and keep those customers and then sell them a new phone in the future that will allow you to sell them content. As i said in an earlier post, In Europe the lure of the iPhone is probably not going to be enough to churn enough customers over to a new network, the market is more advanced, the majority of customers do stay loyal to their network, The networks reward people heavily for loyalty. There are a wide choice of advanced, smart phones on the market that means the iPhone while obviousley a great looking phone and a big leap forward in areas such as multi touch, the slow speeds it supports is exactly what the networks are not looking for.

This is an excellent analysis. And, very plausible.

It will be interesting to see the outcome. I am expecting -- well, the word is 'hoping,' I suppose -- that ease of use will trump both the issue of iTunes and of the 2.5G v. 3.0G issue for a lot of people (esp. less tech-y users).
post #48 of 65
After reading the latest Roughly Drafted article and reading Sebastien's list (above) it looks like the EU iPhone will most likely be EDGE despite what murphyweb thinks.

As pointed out in the RD article, "In Europe, while UMTS is more common, an EDGE iPhone may still be delivered. It worked for LGs Prada phone [which only supports EDGE for data transfer], and the iPhone also has WiFi, giving it the ability to connect faster than typical UMTS speeds when a hotspot is available."

And according to poster dammitjanet on the RD forums, "O2 has the worst network in the UK... If the iPhone does not have 3G when it comes out in the UK, then the fastest they can get under O2 is GRPS..." O2 is denying a contract with Apple and the iPhone's hidden PNGs show Vodapone and T-Mobile but no O2.

This is fun!
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post #49 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Many carriers and other critics have dismissed the iPhone by simply looking at the paper specs and extrapolating from their experiences what appeal of the iPhone was going to be. Perhaps that's why Verizon passed on the iphone when Apple made the pitch to them. Don't make that mistake. The user experience is extraordinary. Smart carriers will try to get the deal with Apple and make it as exclusive as they can. In that way 'churn' can be reduced. How else do you differentiate yourself from your competitors? While Europe has a better 3g network than the US, I still think european consumers will be attracted to the iPhone despite it's limitations. It'll still be a better experience for users than what currently exists in Europe, no matter what network it's on.

Should have read this before my prior post -- you put it so much better!

I think you hit the nail on the head with two of your observations, in particular: "extrapolating from their [past] experiences" and "extraordinary user experience."

Unless you've held one in your hand and actually used it, it is somewhat difficult to put in words. I know it sounds a bit weird, but it's true.
post #50 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinglasgow View Post

Waiting two minutes for a page with any graphics on it to load will not be what anyone sees as any sort of "good experience".

I SO WANT IT TO BE GREAT.

Today, for the first time, I used it on EDGE for the internet (I have been using all the non-phone applications on wi-fi since I live in an area that is blanketed by wi-fi): It took nowhere near two minutes for ANY web page. Indeed, no page that I sought took more than 10 - 20 seconds. (On wi-fi, it is positively blazing in its speed).

Btw, this was in a friend's lakeside home in a rural community in New Hampshire.
post #51 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphyweb View Post

There is an even bigger problem with Apple selling a phone to the European and Asian markets, a problem that i struggle to see being addressed, namely iTunes. The promise of 3G opened up a new business model for the mobile phone networks one that was previously unavailable to them under the old technology, the future was clear though as displayed by the rise of Broadband connections that enabled the Internet Service Providers to start becoming content providers as well as bandwidth providers.

There is a reason why the 3G licences in the UK sold for billions of pounds, 3G delivers such good data rates that it would be possible to start selling music, videos and TV shows over the network, a potentially bigger revenue stream that just selling minutes, the networks knew this and wanted a piece of the action.

There has been a change in the attitude of the mobile phone industry in Europe of late, The market has always been controlled and owned by the manufacturers, Nokia, Siemens and Ericsson have made the phones that people wanted to buy, they have been the brand that people bought into. But now the carriers are trying very hard for this to reverse, Orange want you to buy into Orange not Nokia, the networks want to own the customer and therefore have a bigger say in which technology is deployed to enable them to sell more services accross the network. The mobile networks want to only sell phones that will give them the market to sell content to, this is where their money is going to come from. Minutes are a commodity now, just like consumer ADSL is, minutes and mobile data packages could even become (or has become?) a loss leader in the chase for long terms contracts with the promise of media sales.

So the question is what has iPhone got to offer these networks? Will they be able to sell Music or TV shows to their iPhone customers? I think iTunes already takes care of that and the fact that the iPhone does not even support 3G means that even if Apple allowed them to sell content to iPhone customers they cannot anyway as the network would not support it. So what else does that leave for the networks? Selling data packages, this is already becomming commodity so why on earth would a network want to sell this phone at all?

The only reason i can think of is to gain market share, i.e. exactly what AT&T are trying to do. If you can churn enough customer onto your network from your competitors then you can try and keep those customers and then sell them a new phone in the future that will allow you to sell them content. As i said in an earlier post, In Europe the lure of the iPhone is probably not going to be enough to churn enough customers over to a new network, the market is more advanced, the majority of customers do stay loyal to their network, The networks reward people heavily for loyalty. There are a wide choice of advanced, smart phones on the market that means the iPhone while obviousley a great looking phone and a big leap forward in areas such as multi touch, the slow speeds it supports is exactly what the networks are not looking for.

Operators may think they will be selling services, but I'm pretty sure future will prove otherwise. Operators charging unfair transfer fees are the biggest blockage for mobile internet. Operators should only be selling data plans. Cell phone operating costs are slowly getting close to being tolerable to customers, but the service prices operators are trying charge are ridiculous. People are idiots paying for them, but it's only because there haven't been proper competition. I do realize that building networks isn't cheap, and in ideal world operators should be allowed to charge nearly anything they want, and fair competition would eventually take care of the prices. In real world though, with regulated market there is no real competition.
Talking about services, SMS messages are the biggest moneymaking hoax ever. GSM Phone calls costs around 0,1€/min in Finland, and SMS messages cost 0,1€/piece, GSM phone call data rate is around 12kbit/s and SMS size is 1120bits+some overhead. It's quite obvious that SMS bits cost multiple times what bit's used for calling. Same goes with GSM data bits. All bits clearly aren't equal.
Operators are also asking 5€ for a mp3 ringtone when iTunes sells the same song in .99¢. That just can't go on forever.
I have no problems operators trying to sell services, but what I am asking is fair competition.
I really hope that Google is secretly building it's own network, not because we need another money hungry operator, but more competition is always good. Google has also shown that they can sometimes think outside the box. [EDIT]link to the article i'm referring to[EDIT]
I also don't see what you mean by phone manufacturers controlling the market. The cell phone market in Europe has so far been very competitive. Without operators subsidies and twisting the market, the phone manufacturers would be competing fair with each other. Customer would be the winners.
post #52 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Project2501 View Post

I really hope that Google is secretly building it's own network, not because we need another money hungry operator, but more competition is always good. Google has also shown that they can sometimes think outside the box.

It's been awhile since I've heard about the mythical Google Data Centers being built into storage containers. Still too early to tell, but perhaps Apple+Google has some long term plans in store.
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post #53 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Huh? It's been awhile since I've heard about the mythical Google Data Centers being built into storage containers. Still too early to tell, but perhaps Apple+Google has some long term plans in store.

Oh, sorry, I should remember to include sources to my ramblings, this article popped up in digg few days ago.
post #54 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Project2501 View Post

Oh, sorry, I should remember to include sources to my ramblings, this article popped up in digg few days ago.

My "Huh?" was misplaced in that context. I understood your comment. Sorry for the confusion.
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post #55 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

As pointed out in the RD article, "In Europe, while UMTS is more common, an EDGE iPhone may still be delivered. It worked for LGs Prada phone [which only supports EDGE for data transfer], and the iPhone also has WiFi, giving it the ability to connect faster than typical UMTS speeds when a hotspot is available."

Like many of Roughly Drafted's pieces, that's optimistic fanboism. LG's Prada phone (which nobody other than chavs, footballer's wives and teenage girls actually like) may only support EDGE but that's irrelevant. Most of the networks do not support EDGE, so you can't use it anyway. The Prada isn't a 'revolutionary internet device' either so the importance of fast internet connections isn't as important to it as the word 'PRADA' on the front. Good luck with the free WiFi connectivity also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Today, for the first time, I used it on EDGE for the internet (I have been using all the non-phone applications on wi-fi since I live in an area that is blanketed by wi-fi): It took nowhere near two minutes for ANY web page. Indeed, no page that I sought took more than 10 - 20 seconds. (On wi-fi, it is positively blazing in its speed).

Good for you. Now try it on plain Jane GPRS 16 to 48kbps which is what most of the networks are in Europe when you're not using 3G.

If there's one good thing that could possibly happen with a 2G iPhone, it's that the EDGE network gets expanded for those of us on older phones still or in areas where 3G is marginally available or desired. Some people switch off 3G on their phones to save battery or because the switching between 2G and 3G networks can be annoying. In the past most of the networks have held back deploying EDGE because they want you using 3G.
post #56 of 65
I have tried an iPhone using Edge.
It really is not that bad. Much slower than WiFi - but way faster than GPRS.

By the way.... The Apple stores actually let you touch the phone and even make calls!
How radical is that! In Carphone Warehouse you don't get to touch the phone 'till you've paid for it.
No wonder that phone user interfaces are shite.


Jobs has said that device is intended to be a killer App for 3G. I am certain that that Apple will be negotiating by positioning the iPhone as a 3G device.

3G companies will want to get it - because it shows how great 3G is.
2G companies will want to get it - because it shows how great 3G is.
post #57 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

I have tried an iPhone using Edge.
It really is not that bad. Much slower than WiFi - but way faster than GPRS.

In Sheffield?
post #58 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

In Sheffield?

In San Francisco.

Although I did have escape rising flood-waters to get there.

C.
post #59 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

In San Francisco.

Although I did have escape rising flood-waters to get there.

It's pissing it down again in dankest West Yorkshire where I am too. I'm not buying an iPhone till they do a scuba kit for it.

Worst Summer EVAH!
post #60 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

It's pissing it down again in dankest West Yorkshire where I am too. I'm not buying an iPhone till they do a scuba kit for it.

Worst Summer EVAH!

In San Jose the weather reporter was explaining that they'd had 8" of rainfall that year.
In Sheffield we'd had 4" on Monday!

C.
post #61 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_the_dragon View Post

How does apple get pass EU laws that say phones MUST BE UNLOCKED?


Every phone I've ever bought in the UK has been locked to only work with the SIMs from the provider who offered that particular deal/subsidized that phone. Only recently did we find that Carphone Warehouse sells great value unlocked "pay as you go".

It's not difficult to unlock phones (especially if you run Windows) but since when has it been the law that they have to be unlocked; all service providers lock the phone they sell from all OEMs to their service. I don't see why Apple would be any different.
post #62 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtotes View Post

Every phone I've ever bought in the UK has been locked to only work with the SIMs from the provider who offered that particular deal/subsidized that phone. Only recently did we find that Carphone Warehouse sells great value unlocked "pay as you go".

It's not difficult to unlock phones (especially if you run Windows) but since when has it been the law that they have to be unlocked; all service providers lock the phone they sell from all OEMs to their service. I don't see why Apple would be any different.

As far as I know.
In the EU you are allowed to sell phones locked to one provider. But after six months the provider must unlock the phone if asked.

C.
post #63 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

As far as I know.
In the EU you are allowed to sell phones locked to one provider. But after six months the provider must unlock the phone if asked.

C.

That's what I heard (although I dunno about the length of time -- I'll take your word on 6 months).

They are allowed to charge a reasonable fee to do this, although I don't think there's a definition of reasonable... but every time I've had it done it's been free (Vodafone and Orange).

Amorya
post #64 of 65
What about us Scandinavians? We are app. 20 mio!!!

And why don't give all acces to the iPhone. But I hope it will be Vodafone or Orange to carry the iPhone in Europe, because Sweden and Denmark has Vodafone (Norway hasen't )
post #65 of 65
Yes that's right - at least in DK, when you're allowed to lock the phone to one provider, or take money to unlock it.
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