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Exorbitant data rates keeping iPhone out of Canada?

post #1 of 94
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Steep wireless data rates may be the primary reason Canadians have not yet been treated to Apple Inc.'s revolutionary iPhone handset, according to one expert.

"The barrier to the iPhone in Canada is not Apple," says Michael Geist, Canada research chair of Internet and e-commerce law at the University of Ottawa. "Rather, it is the lack of wireless competition that [...] leads to pricing that places Canadians at a significant disadvantage compared with other developed countries."

In the U.S., AT&T's combined iPhone service and data plans start at just $59.99 for 450 anytime minutes, 5000 additional night and weekend minutes, and unlimited data. But in Canada, as Geist notes, a comparable plan for Rogers Wireless -- the only carrier with an iPhone-compatible GSM network -- would currently run about $295 per month.

Rogers charges $60 for 500 anytime minutes, $25 for an additional $500 anytime minutes and a whopping $210 for 500MB data plan. Unlike AT&T, the Canadian carrier does not offer an unlimited data plan and its monthly minutes do not rollover to the next month if they go unused.

If Rogers does introduce the iPhone to its customers, it will have to make major changes to its data pricing, Geist told Canada's National Post on Monday. "I don't see how you can have an iPhone with the pricing structure that they're offering," he said.

In an email advisory sent to subscribers earlier this year, Rogers said that it was still sorting out iPhone availability and pricing terms with Apple. However, the carrier confidently claimed that it would be the only Canadian provider to offer the Apple handset.

Since then, no further details on the matter have surface. However, a recent posting to Best Buy's Canadian website hinted that an announcement could be imminent.
post #2 of 94
Rates for Canada are outrageous compared to elsewhere. Would love to have an iPhone but, do not see anyway I will be handing over a mortgage size payment to the Telco every month.

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post #3 of 94
Oh man, and I thought that US mobile phone providers sucked!

Btw, in all fairness: thus far, I must admit to being hugely impressed by ATT -- maybe they're on their best behavior for the first couple of weeks. We'll see.
post #4 of 94
You know cell service is bad in a country when US service compares favorably with it...
post #5 of 94
Canadian $210 for 500MB... that's laughable...

i hope apple get's the same deal as in the US... in germany they will for sure...!!!!

t-mobile will be mor ethan happy to do a 59 all data inclusive with 500 anytime minutes.... and unlimited SMS!!!!
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post #6 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevalierMalFet View Post

You know cell service is bad in a country when US service compares favorably with it...

post #7 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevalierMalFet View Post

You know cell service is bad in a country when US service compares favorably with it...

thirded!

It seems its true then Rodgers SUCKS!
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post #8 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by polar315 View Post

Rates for Canada are outrageous compared to elsewhere. Would love to have an iPhone but, do not see anyway I will be handing over a mortgage size payment to the Telco every month.

Does anybody know if there is any infrastructural (is that a word?) reason for costs to be so high in Canada? I know it is a big country with a relatively small population, but I assume that Rogers would only be focusing on the population centers which would mitigate, to some extent, these costs.

How about the cold. Do the towers have to be constructed differently or with power-hungry deicers up there?

Or is it simply a case of a de facto monopoly that is trampling the people in Canada land?

I dunno. Its hard to believe that those extremely high costs are legitimate, but it is worth asking if anybody knows a reason why other than the simple money-grubbing, innovation-stunting, monopolistic bastards...
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post #9 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by polar315 View Post

Rates for Canada are outrageous compared to elsewhere. Would love to have an iPhone but, do not see anyway I will be handing over a mortgage size payment to the Telco every month.

Yep, my thought exactly.

A couple of years ago, all the wireless companies had unlimited data plans (before Rogers bought Fido), it was listed for $60 at Fido (I didn't check the other companies).

Then Rogers bought Fido and lo and behold, all unlimited data plans from all the wireless providers (Bell, Telus, Rogers and the now Rogers-subsidiary Fido) simply disappeared.

Last time I checked they all had the same prices. $100 for 100 MB of data. And that is despite Canada having Anti-collusion laws.

For now and until things change, I won't be upgrading from my most basic wireless plan. If they want more of my money, which I don't mind paying, they have to give me more for it. I don't like the feeling that Canadian companies now give me. Every time I think of anything other than the most basic plans, I start feeling like I'm dropping my pants and bending over.
post #10 of 94
i wonder what are they gonna do in Belgium. here, it is forbidden to sell 2 products at once, like a subscription and a mobile phone(that's why we always pay full price for mobile phones).
in belgium you get 275min for 55 euros,
and these are the data plans with GPRS or 3G(only big cities)

Access Time Option (standaard)\t€ 0,4158 / 5 min
(€ 4,99/hour).

Access Volume Option\t€ 0,50 / 100 KB\t

bundle of 10 MBt€ 18,15 / month\t10 MB (accounted per 10 KB)\toutside the 10 MB: € 0,0177 / 10 KB
post #11 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

If Rogers does introduce the iPhone to its customers, it will have to make major changes to its data pricing, Geist told Canada's National Post on Monday. "I don't see how you can have an iPhone with the pricing structure that they're offering," he said.

Easy ! Allow the iPhone to be bought without any data package !

I for one would be perfectly happy with a GSM phone and wifi, sans EDGE!

3G is only available in the Greater Toronto Area anyways for now, so real non-corporate use of cell-based internet is going to take much more time in this geographically vast country that unfortunately invested WAY too much in old analogue technology years, being limited opportunities for competition in the Telcom sector. It'll come eventually ... but painfully slow.
post #12 of 94
I wonder if this pricing model would be used for the iPhone, or if Apple would insist on something more affordable as a condition of allowing Rogers to sell it.
post #13 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by panamajack View Post

Easy ! Allow the iPhone to be bought without any data package !

I for one would be perfectly happen with a GSM phone and wifi, sans EDGE!

My thoughts exactly. Will Rogers allow this? I also think Rogers wants to protect it's music service.
post #14 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbravo556 View Post

A couple of years ago, all the wireless companies had unlimited data plans (before Rogers bought Fido), it was listed for $60 at Fido (I didn't check the other companies).

Then Rogers bought Fido and lo and behold, all unlimited data plans from all the wireless providers (Bell, Telus, Rogers and the now Rogers-subsidiary Fido) simply disappeared.

Last time I checked they all had the same prices. $100 for 100 MB of data. And that is despite Canada having Anti-collusion laws.

Well, I guess you answered my question...

I hope Apple can force some change up there...
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post #15 of 94
It sounds like it would be a lot cheaper for Canadians to go the US to get an iPhone and then just pay roaming charges.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ollebolle View Post

i wonder what are they gonna do in Belgium. here, it is forbidden to sell 2 products at once, like a subscription and a mobile phone(that's why we always pay full price for mobile phones).

I'm also under the impression that Belguim phones can't be sold locked. This makes selling the iPhone in Belguim a difficult feat for Apple.
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post #16 of 94
Sorry, guys, but I'm the reason that the iPhone hasn't come to Canada yet.

Apple really hate me.
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post #17 of 94
I've never really understood Canada, Rogers is huge, it's the cable, TV, internet, phones... but it's Rogers.... That's like "Bob's Wireless" except his name is Roger. A better name wasn't available?

Maybe Rogers means something else in French?

Anyway, a lot of my artist friends live in Canada, so I hope they can get iPhones soon. Meanwhile, I'm still trying to get one in the US with a huge shortage right now. Let's get these things in stock people.
post #18 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post

Well, I guess you answered my question...

I hope Apple can force some change up there...

With only a single national GSM provider, I wonder what kind of leverage Apple really can have over Rogers, besides pure consumer lust.

On the other hand, it does provide Rogers an opportunity to grab people away from the CDMA carriers.

A question on Cdn. data rates: aret there more competitive rates for enterprise users ? Blackberries are just as popular in the home of RIM has in other major business centers .... are Canadian firms just paying more, or have their economies of scale brought prices down ?
post #19 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by John the Geek View Post

I've never really understood Canada, Rogers is huge, it's the cable, TV, internet, phones... but it's Rogers.... That's like "Bob's Wireless" except his name is Roger. A better name wasn't available?

Maybe Rogers means something else in French?

Anyway, a lot of my artist friends live in Canada, so I hope they can get iPhones soon. Meanwhile, I'm still trying to get one in the US with a huge shortage right now. Let's get these things in stock people.

Good job with the guess on that one. lol. Rogers would happen to be the last name of the creator of the company, Ted Rogers Sr. (who i believe invented the first modern cable systems that we use today) Since then Ted Rogers Jr. has taken over the company (even though he is getting up into his 70's I think) and then his son Edward Rogers is running the Cable side of the business.

I certainly hope for iPhone as well, but I think it is like everyone else has said, there will need to be huge changes with data packages for it to become at all affordable up here. Needless to say if they figure it out then they will be able to take over huge amounts of market share from Bell and Telus. I can understand why it may take a while though, becuase Wireless has been a cash cow for Rogers, making them record profits and I am sure that the data plans have a role to play in all of that. Needless to say alot of waiting will be done, but it will be worth it!
post #20 of 94
Rogers is the worst ever telecom company. I would rather cut off my ear than get a cell phone from them. It isn't just that their cell service is horrible, but their cable service is the worst I have ever heard of. If that weren't bad enough, their customer service is non-existent. You have a better chance of getting killed by a terrorist than getting any customer service from these people. They charge you for everything... EVERYTHING.

Bitter

Wow I feel a little better now.... just let it all flow out of me.
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post #21 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiam View Post

Rogers is the worst ever telecom company. I would rather cut off my ear than get a cell phone from them. It isn't just that their cell service is horrible, but their cable service is the worst I have ever heard of. If that weren't bad enough, their customer service is non-existent. You have a better chance of getting killed by a terrorist than getting any customer service from these people. They charge you for everything... EVERYTHING.

Oh please. Rogers is no better or worse than anyone else. It's the same as people grumbling in the US about AT&T. If Verizon got the iPhone contract, people would grumble about Verizon.

Telus and Bell are no better either.
post #22 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by ollebolle View Post

i wonder what are they gonna do in Belgium. here, it is forbidden to sell 2 products at once, like a subscription and a mobile phone(that's why we always pay full price for mobile phones).
in belgium you get 275min for 55 euros,
and these are the data plans with GPRS or 3G(only big cities)

Access Time Option (standaard)\t 0,4158 / 5 min
( 4,99/hour).

Access Volume Option\t 0,50 / 100 KB\t

bundle of 10 MBt 18,15 / month\t10 MB (accounted per 10 KB)\toutside the 10 MB: 0,0177 / 10 KB

A silly law.

That's much worse than in the States.

It seems the truth about other places is finally leaking out.
post #23 of 94
What also sucks is that the 3 big companies, Bell, Telus & Rogers, collectively decided to stop offering roaming numbers. It's like they have a tri-opoly or something.
post #24 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiopollution View Post

Sorry, guys, but I'm the reason that the iPhone hasn't come to Canada yet.

Apple really hate me.

Don't feel so bad, we ALL hate you.

post #25 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by John the Geek View Post

I've never really understood Canada, Rogers is huge, it's the cable, TV, internet, phones... but it's Rogers.... That's like "Bob's Wireless" except his name is Roger. A better name wasn't available?

Maybe Rogers means something else in French?

Anyway, a lot of my artist friends live in Canada, so I hope they can get iPhones soon. Meanwhile, I'm still trying to get one in the US with a huge shortage right now. Let's get these things in stock people.

Think of the word *Monopoly*.
post #26 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by John the Geek View Post

I've never really understood Canada, Rogers is huge, it's the cable, TV, internet, phones... but it's Rogers.... That's like "Bob's Wireless" except his name is Roger. A better name wasn't available?

Maybe Rogers means something else in French?

Anyway, a lot of my artist friends live in Canada, so I hope they can get iPhones soon. Meanwhile, I'm still trying to get one in the US with a huge shortage right now. Let's get these things in stock people.

In the UK (and the Canadians tend to speak a version of English closer to us than the Americans do), "roger" means "to fuck". Sounds like they're living up to their name.
post #27 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Don't feel so bad, we ALL hate you.


Do I smell a temp. ban?
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post #28 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiopollution View Post

Do I smell a temp. ban?

Yes, if you have no sense of humor.
post #29 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It sounds like it would be a lot cheaper for Canadians to go the US to get an iPhone and then just pay roaming charges.

Roaming charges for data usage might be huge.
post #30 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Yes, if you have no sense of humor.

Fair enough.

I'm only lacking an iPhone.

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post #31 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbravo556 View Post

A couple of years ago, all the wireless companies had unlimited data plans (before Rogers bought Fido), it was listed for $60 at Fido (I didn't check the other companies)...

And Rogers still let me keep my $40 unlimited on my Blackberry... mind you, it's a 957...
But that rate has me keeping that old piece of hardware for the type of (text) browsing that I regularily do.

It's not a phone, but the 957 does have a pager!
post #32 of 94
Blame Canada!
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post #33 of 94
Am I wrong, but in Canada, the Competition Act makes it illegal to tie the sale of a product, the iPhone, to a specific provider, ATT or Rogers Canada, especially if Apple is to get royalty payments for each cell phone user throughout the duration of the subscription contract with the cell phone service provider.

Am I wrong or what?

Hopefully, Canadian consumers are protected by the Competition Act. If need be, I will swear a statement of complaint to start an investigation by Competition authorities.

Canadians will not be fleeced!!!

P.S.: Has anyone investigated the matter with American Antitrust authorities?

post #34 of 94
The heady combination of angst, sadness, bitterness, and bite-the-lip-ness in this thread makes me feel bad for our friends up North.

Yet (I am very sorry), I can't help rolling on the floor laughing.... at the humor you guys can muster.

\
post #35 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It seems the truth about other places is finally leaking out.



Brilliant.

I have certainly discovered that about France, if Paris is any indication, this week!
post #36 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Steep wireless data rates may be the primary reason Canadians have not yet been treated to Apple Inc.'s revolutionary iPhone handset, according to one expert.

"The barrier to the iPhone in Canada is not Apple," says Michael Geist, Canada research chair of Internet and e-commerce law at the University of Ottawa. "Rather, it is the lack of wireless competition that [...] leads to pricing that places Canadians at a significant disadvantage compared with other developed countries."

In the U.S., AT&T's combined iPhone service and data plans start at just $59.99 for 450 anytime minutes, 5000 additional night and weekend minutes, and unlimited data. But in Canada, as Geist notes, a comparable plan for Rogers Wireless -- the only carrier with an iPhone-compatible GSM network -- would currently run about $295 per month.

Rogers charges $60 for 500 anytime minutes, $25 for an additional $500 anytime minutes and a whopping $210 for 500MB data plan. Unlike AT&T, the Canadian carrier does not offer an unlimited data plan and its monthly minutes do not rollover to the next month if they go unused.

If Rogers does introduce the iPhone to its customers, it will have to make major changes to its data pricing, Geist told Canada's National Post on Monday. "I don't see how you can have an iPhone with the pricing structure that they're offering," he said.

In an email advisory sent to subscribers earlier this year, Rogers said that it was still sorting out iPhone availability and pricing terms with Apple. However, the carrier confidently claimed that it would be the only Canadian provider to offer the Apple handset.

Since then, no further details on the matter have surface. However, a recent posting to Best Buy's Canadian website hinted that an announcement could be imminent.

Not sure if we can believe the information posted above. Apparently there is no 500MB data plan available from Rogers. A sample data plan, e.g., their DataMax PDA plan which includes 350 voice minutes, unlimited nights and weekends and 25 mb data (which will yield approximately 200 emails and 10 websites daily) costs about $92 US per month. Blackberries have a different plan.

Interesting that comparing most of the cell phone plans whether US or Canada are quite similar. Unfortunately, there is no consistency in how each of their respective plans are tabled, making the attempt to compare services offered and charges for very difficult. If anything, Canadian prices tend to be lower than the US. For example, Canadians pay 99¢ for iTunes-but in Canadian dollars.

I think that we should move with caution attempting to assume what, where and how the Canadian program will rollout as we found with the final iPhone launch here. History tells us that Rogers' success is based on innovation and customer service. I would side with caution accepting some of the anecdotal comments posted here as a true reflection of the companies endeavors.

I would suggest that Rogers is no dummy. Canada, with a population basically that of California is a significant opportunity for the likes of the iPhone, and Rogers will do everything in its power to make it happen, thus satisfying their investors, Apple and most important its customers.

P.S. Did I just hear that Sprint has dropped a 1,000 customers for making too many service calls?
post #37 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post

Does anybody know if there is any infrastructural (is that a word?) reason for costs to be so high in Canada? I know it is a big country with a relatively small population, but I assume that Rogers would only be focusing on the population centers which would mitigate, to some extent, these costs.

How about the cold. Do the towers have to be constructed differently or with power-hungry deicers up there?

Or is it simply a case of a de facto monopoly that is trampling the people in Canada land?

I dunno. Its hard to believe that those extremely high costs are legitimate, but it is worth asking if anybody knows a reason why other than the simple money-grubbing, innovation-stunting, monopolistic bastards...

It is simply because there is no competition here. It is the problem in many industries here. No competition=high prices.

I was wondering from the beginning how the iPhone would go over here with all of the data extensive features. Either Canada won't get the iPhone or Rogers will wake up and smell the coffee and lower their data plan costs. That would be a win win all the way around. We would get the phone and lower prices. Rogers would dramatically improve their sales.

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post #38 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Canada, with a population basically that of California is a significant opportunity for the likes of the iPhone......[/B]

Canada pop'n, end-2006: 32.5 million
California pop'n, end-2006: 36.5 million (= 112% of Canada)

Canada, land area (sq. miles): 4,000,000
California, land area (sq. miles): 160,000 (= 4% of Canada).
post #39 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Not sure if we can believe the information posted above. Apparently there is no 500MB data plan available from Rogers. A sample data plan, e.g., their DataMax PDA plan which includes 350 voice minutes, unlimited nights and weekends and 25 mb data (which will yield approximately 200 emails and 10 websites daily) costs about $92 US per month. Blackberries have a different plan.

Interesting that comparing most of the cell phone plans whether US or Canada are quite similar. Unfortunately, there is no consistency in how each of their respective plans are tabled, making the attempt to compare services offered and charges for very difficult. If anything, Canadian prices tend to be lower than the US. For example, Canadians pay 99¢ for iTunes-but in Canadian dollars.

I think that we should move with caution attempting to assume what, where and how the Canadian program will rollout as we found with the final iPhone launch here. History tells us that Rogers' success is based on innovation and customer service. I would side with caution accepting some of the anecdotal comments posted here as a true reflection of the companies endeavors.

I would suggest that Rogers is no dummy. Canada, with a population basically that of California is a significant opportunity for the likes of the iPhone, and Rogers will do everything in its power to make it happen, thus satisfying their investors, Apple and most important its customers.

I would think that if Rogers really wants the iPhone, and if they think it will earn them more money than they would without it, then they would work out out what it would be they would have to do to make that so.

Considering that the iPhone is a very web-centric device, a big part of the pull would be to have people USE the web with it. If the plans data costs are too high, that won't happen. If it doesn't happen, people won't buy the phone, and Rogers will make less money.

In economics 101 you learn that there is a point at which the price and the number of customers gives maximum profits.

When prices are too low, more customers results in lower profits. The same thing is true when prices are too high.

As I would never expect any company to do anything other than to maximize its profits (and rightly so!), they have to walk that fine line.

If almost no one uses internet access on their phone, then a very price is justified, but, if they want to have many more using it, then prices have to come down, but not below where they can maximize their profits from it.

Quote:
P.S. Did I just hear that Sprint has dropped a 1,000 customers for making too many service calls?

And, yes, Sprint is supposedly doing that.

But the average person with Sprint (I'm one) calls customer service once every 2 months. These people call customer service an average of over 22 times PER month!
post #40 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Canada pop'n, end-2006: 32.5 million
California pop'n, end-2006: 36.5 million (= 112% of Canada)

Canada, land area (sq. miles): 4,000,000
California, land area (sq. miles): 160,000 (= 4% of Canada).

This is also the reason why it's so expensive to get broadband, at really high speeds, across the USA.
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