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Exorbitant data rates keeping iPhone out of Canada? - Page 2

post #41 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by techno View Post

It is simply because there is no competition here. It is the problem in many industries here. No competition=high prices.

I was wondering from the beginning how the iPhone would go over here with all of the data extensive features. Either Canada won't get the iPhone or Rogers will wake up and smell the coffee and lower their data plan costs. That would be a win win all the way around. We would get the phone and lower prices. Rogers would dramatically improve their sales.

Sounds just like the same comments that were coming forth just before the iPhone launch.
post #42 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Canada pop'n, end-2006: 32.5 million
California pop'n, end-2006: 36.5 million (= 112% of Canada)

Canada, land area (sq. miles): 4,000,000
California, land area (sq. miles): 160,000 (= 4% of Canada).

And the streets are still full of cars.

Come on Apple. Fight for our rights!
post #43 of 94
The only reason to go with Rogers is they are the only carrier who is still using EDGE. Their rates are far from indicative of what Canadians typically pay. Of all of the wireless carriers there are in Canada, Rogers is far and away the worst. They are the only company I would never deal with again, and this is the sentiment of a large number of Canadians. Every other carrier gives significantly better service, has better coverage outside of city centres, and has significantly lower rates.

If Apple goes ahead with the 3G iPhone that they're going to have to have to appease European customers anyway, their choices, and pricing options will suddenly get a lot broader. They could end up with a company like Telus that actually values their customers, and treats them with respect.
post #44 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Not sure if we can believe the information posted above. Apparently there is no 500MB data plan available from Rogers. A sample data plan, e.g., their DataMax PDA plan which includes 350 voice minutes, unlimited nights and weekends and 25 mb data (which will yield approximately 200 emails and 10 websites daily) costs about $92 US per month. Blackberries have a different plan.....

Here is actual data from Rogers website @
http://www.shoprogers.com/store/wire..._Insert_EN.pdf

What a FREAKIN RIP-OFF.. I feel bad for my Canadian friends...

$15/mo for 1.5 MB ($21 per additional MB)

$25/mo for 3 MB ($10 per additional MB)

$40/mo for 7 MB ($6 per additional MB)

$60/mo for 25 MB ($7 per additional MB)

$100/mo for 200 MB ($5 per additional MB)

BTW, I use Verizon 3G EV-DO and easily use 150- 200MB a month usually...
post #45 of 94
free medical care (lets not talk about the quality) is just about the only thing better in canada and europe.
post #46 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by palex9 View Post

free medical care (lets not talk about the quality) is just about the only thing better in canada and europe.

free??? you think so? only in northern countries it's really free, here in belgium, a lot of people take on extra insurances that cover more expensive hospital bills. off course everyone gets medical assistance, but it costs. (BTW internet in Belgium is also crappy: 43 /month for 10 Mbitps and 12 GB traffic)
post #47 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I would think that if Rogers really wants the iPhone, and if they think it will earn them more money than they would without it, then they would work out out what it would be they would have to do to make that so.

Considering that the iPhone is a very web-centric device, a big part of the pull would be to have people USE the web with it. If the plans data costs are too high, that won't happen. If it doesn't happen, people won't buy the phone, and Rogers will make less money.

In economics 101 you learn that there is a point at which the price and the number of customers gives maximum profits.

When prices are too low, more customers results in lower profits. The same thing is true when prices are too high.

As I would never expect any company to do anything other than to maximize its profits (and rightly so!), they have to walk that fine line.

If almost no one uses internet access on their phone, then a very price is justified, but, if they want to have many more using it, then prices have to come down, but not below where they can maximize their profits from it.

Let me give you an example of how simple economic logic does not exactly ring true up here n the great white north.

Recently here in Quebec, a car dealership decided to stay open on the weekends. Now many of you in the US would say, "you mean they aren't already open on the weekends?" Being a US transplant, am amazed. Well when this dealership did this, you can't imagine the controversy it caused. ALl the other dealerships were up in arms. They were outraged and making anonymous death threats to the manager of the dealership in question. Articles were written. They took a vote among the remaining dealers and none of them wanted to open on weekends. As an American who is used to capital greed as the primary motivating factor in these types of decisions, I couldn't understand why they wouldn't want to open on weekends when most people have the time to shop. Who has time after work when most of us are just trying to feed our kids and put them to bed? So the weekends makes perfect sense. Well to these dealers, having weekends off to ride bikes with their kids and go to the countryside is more important.

So economics 101 does not always apply here. That being said, I don't believe the data prices here are expensive due to any other reason than that there are only 2-3 carriers here and they are obviously in collusion to keep things the way they are. Hopefully Rogers will break the pattern and go for the gold and grab the iPhone. If the data rates dropped to a reasonable price, trust me plenty of people would use it and browse the web. Canadians like the internet just as much as Americans.

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post #48 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

The only reason to go with Rogers is they are the only carrier who is still using EDGE. Their rates are far from indicative of what Canadians typically pay. Of all of the wireless carriers there are in Canada, Rogers is far and away the worst. They are the only company I would never deal with again, and this is the sentiment of a large number of Canadians. Every other carrier gives significantly better service, has better coverage outside of city centres, and has significantly lower rates.

If Apple goes ahead with the 3G iPhone that they're going to have to have to appease European customers anyway, their choices, and pricing options will suddenly get a lot broader. They could end up with a company like Telus that actually values their customers, and treats them with respect.

There is nothing wrong with Rogers: been with them for five years -- Vancouver, Toronto and Ottawa -- and have never considered leaving them. Some people are never happy -- and there are just as many people who hate Telus as hate Rogers -- more out here in the west. Bell doesn't elicit the same feelings here on the west-coast because they're new to the game out here.

The reason that Apple would go with Rogers is not EDGE, but GSM: Telus and Bell networks are incompatible with the iPhone.
post #49 of 94
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are no more national wireless carriers in the US than here in Canada: Sprint, T-Mobil, AT&T and Cingular to Telus, Bell, and Rogers. I doubt that the extra carrier makes for less collusion. I suspect that the problem in Canada is that both the population and population density are lower than in the US.

Once you have the wireless infrastructure in place, 5M or 50M people can use it just the same (perhaps with minor upgrades), and to reach everyone, the wireless carriers have to spread their resources over a larger area. There is nothing more to the higher data prices.
post #50 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by techno View Post

Let me give you an example of how simple economic logic does not exactly ring true up here n the great white north.

Recently here in Quebec, a car dealership decided to stay open on the weekends. Now many of you in the US would say, "you mean they aren't already open on the weekends?" Being a US transplant, am amazed...

How is this a Canadian phenomenon? The great majority of U.S. dealerships are closed on the weekends.
post #51 of 94
Thank you. I have been saying this in threads for months.
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post #52 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Canada pop'n, end-2006: 32.5 million
California pop'n, end-2006: 36.5 million (= 112% of Canada)

Canada, land area (sq. miles): 4,000,000
California, land area (sq. miles): 160,000 (= 4% of Canada).

Yes, but 1,500,000 sq. miles of that is the Yukon/NWT/Nunavut, where only 100,000 people live. But your point is well taken.
post #53 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by britwithgoodteeth View Post

How is this a Canadian phenomenon? The great majority of U.S. dealerships are closed on the weekends.

He's in Montreal: don't mind him...
post #54 of 94
Apple just needs to sell the damn thing in it's retail stores, in bestbuy, future shop, and online UNLOCKED with $50 - $100 markup over what it'd be in the US. That would teach rogers as everyone who wants an iphone would choose the shitty free rogers or fido phone and then just stick it in a drawer as backup or something.

Depriving Rogers of selling a 500-700 dollar handset, every dime would go to apple.
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post #55 of 94
95% of the Canadian population lives within 100 miles of the US border, so the square miles of Canada is not that relevant.

It is not the North/South, it is the East/West that makes the difference.

We, historically, get phones models much later than our US counterparts, but there are exceptions.

Does anyone really believe that the GSM iPhone that was just released is the ONLY iPhone that Apple has developed. Do you not all think that Apple has at LEAST a 3 year plan in mind, if not a 5 year plan.

And I believe CDMA IS on that plan. Has anyone ever shown that the iPhone is locked in with AT&T or that the GSM iPhone is locked in with AT&T?

Apple needs to test their entire cell phone operation out with ONE phone to start with, and make any adjustments they need to make.

Once the bugs are worked out, and lessons learned, I expect to see at least 3 models of iPhones and all of them running on both the GSM and CDMA networks.

Look at RIM. They have both GSM and CDMA. They even have a CDMA phone with a GSM chip(s) for roaming in the US.

That being said, ANY of the data plans up here are ridiculous. The iPhone will NOT work here under the current pricing structure.

The iPhone wouldn't even work in the US unless AT&T kept the pricing reasonable, which I think they have.

To me, the Internet capabilities of the iPhone are a huge part of what sets it apart. And that means DATA. And if the rates aren't comparable to AT&T, then the iPhone will be dead in the water in Canada.

Apple will not release the iPhone in Canada unless the carrier provides comparable rates to what AT&T is charging, or perhaps a 10 to 20% higher... certainly not the ridiculous rates we currently have.

IF the carriers see the impact that the iPhone has on the market, and it is significant enough in THEIR eyes, then they will partner with Apple on the iPhone, but I don't think Apple will partner with them unless they have a suitable rate structure similar to AT&T.

I believe that Apple had a HUGE influence on the AT&T rate structure, which is why bargaining came to a stand still with Verizon and with a couple of European carriers.

I don't believe Apple will even think about releasing the iPhone anywhere where reasonable UNLIMITED data rates will be available.

And even moreso in Canada, because WiFi is harder to find.

IMHO!!!
post #56 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecking View Post

Apple just needs to sell the damn thing in it's retail stores, in bestbuy, future shop, and online UNLOCKED with $50 - $100 markup over what it'd be in the US. That would teach rogers as everyone who wants an iphone would choose the shitty free rogers or fido phone and then just stick it in a drawer as backup or something.

Depriving Rogers of selling a 500-700 dollar handset, every dime would go to apple.

Another great thought, IMHO!!! But, I still think Apple wants a guarantee from at least one carrier that the iPhone will have reasonable data rates available.

If there are no reasonable data rates, then the iPhone just wouldn't be the iPhone, and Apple wants it to be the iPhone... What does the ad say about it being the REAL INTERNET?

It wouldn't be the real internet with the data pricing we have up here, so I still think Apple will not bring the iPhone to Canada unless it has strict assurances that reasonable data rates will be available.
post #57 of 94
One other thing: I live in Winnipeg, and car dealers have been open on Saturday for as long as I can remember, and I'm 52 years old.

Not having ANY store open on Saturday in this town is financial suicide.
post #58 of 94
Hear me when I say this now: Rogers will NOT offer an unlimited data plan for the iPhone.

It just doesn't make sense for them. They have considerable leverage right now. They're the only game in town that can even technologically offer the iPhone. If they can snag customers without offering unlimited, as they have been for so long (ie. BlackBerry users don't seem to mind paying through the nose), then why should they?

If unlimited comes, it will be an afterthought under intense consumer pressure (and it will cost a fortune!) Don't expect anything like $59.99 US. More like $99.99 CAN.

Prediction:

The high price (Expect something like $549 - $599 CAN for the 4 GIG and $649 - $699 CAN for the 8 GIG) and the no unlimited data basically mean the iPhone will be DOA here in Canada. Sad but true.

There have been all these comparisons in this thread about the population size of Canada. Just imagine what fraction of the mobile using market here in Canada (around 18 million -- 40% of which are Rogers subscribers) would be willing to shell out the $$$ for the phone.

That's why it's taking so long to be released, that's why when it comes it won't sell very well.

The good thing about this post and posts like these is at least the many problems of Canada's competitive Wireless Telecom industry (or lack thereof) are brought to light. It's a first step.
post #59 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Drake View Post

Hear me when I say this now: Rogers will NOT offer an unlimited data plan for the iPhone.

It just doesn't make sense for them. They have considerable leverage right now. They're the only game in town that can even technologically offer the iPhone. If they can snag customers without offering unlimited, as they have been for so long (ie. BlackBerry users don't seem to mind paying through the nose), then why should they?

If unlimited comes, it will be an afterthought under intense consumer pressure (and it will cost a fortune!) Don't expect anything like $59.99 US. More like $99.99 CAN.

Prediction:

The high price (Expect something like $549 - $599 CAN for the 4 GIG and $649 - $699 CAN for the 8 GIG) and the no unlimited data basically mean the iPhone will be DOA here in Canada. Sad but true.

There have been all these comparisons in this thread about the population size of Canada. Just imagine what fraction of the mobile using market here in Canada (around 18 million -- 40% of which are Rogers subscribers) would be willing to shell out the $$$ for the phone.

That's why it's taking so long to be released, that's why when it comes it won't sell very well.

The good thing about this post and posts like these is at least the many problems of Canada's competitive Wireless Telecom industry (or lack thereof) are brought to light. It's a first step.

John, Apple could also bluff Rogers with CDMA support if they didn't play ball. They could blacklist GSM and go the other route. Don't put it past Jobs to do this. I'm told he's VERY ruthless when it comes to negotiations.
post #60 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denton View Post

There is nothing wrong with Rogers: been with them for five years -- Vancouver, Toronto and Ottawa -- and have never considered leaving them. Some people are never happy -- and there are just as many people who hate Telus as hate Rogers -- more out here in the west. Bell doesn't elicit the same feelings here on the west-coast because they're new to the game out here.

The reason that Apple would go with Rogers is not EDGE, but GSM: Telus and Bell networks are incompatible with the iPhone.

I've been with Rogers for over 10 years (I have one of those Internet/TV/cell phone bundles), and yes, there is a lot wrong with them. People think they're alright because they've never had to deal with any other company. Please, since you seem to like them, tell me what justification there is for Rogers' cell phone data plan prices (other than corporate greed). We have a huge problem in this country in that Canadian competition laws regulate foreign (American) companies, while at the same time giants like Rogers and Bell are free to step all over consumers. It's been going on for decades. The CRTC should be allowed to do its job, but AFAIK they are prevented by law from doing anything about Rogers' monopolistic bully tactics. Case and point: Rogers' ridiculous "unlimited" (which actually isn't unlimited) cell phone data plan. Once upon a time, FIDO was an independent company, and had a (truly) unlimited data plan (for around $25/month, as I recall). Then, along came Rogers and bought them. 3 months later, no more FIDO unlimited data plan. Tell me that's good for consumers.

Bully tactics, you say? How about this: Rogers routinely signs contracts with landlords that (legally) prevent any other service providers from doing installations on their property. Around where I live, there are a lot of working-class families living in high-rise apartments getting gouged on their cable/Internet bills by Ted and his band of corporate thugs. People are forced to buy their Internet and cable TV services from Rogers, simply because of where they live.

Even people who aren't Rogers customers know of the company's legendary reputation for awful customer support. Every time you call, you have to go through the same excruciating automated voice message system. Once you're through that minefield, you wait on hold until you're either: a) directed to a (likely outsourced) customer support rep who doesn't know what they're talking about, or; b) you're directed to a customer support rep who takes the attitude that their problem is actually your problem. If you're really lucky, you'll get directed to someone who actually knows what they're talking about and gives a damn about their job. I don't blame the customer support reps, my anger is usually directed at Rogers management; I can only imagine how soul-destroying it must be to work for that kind of company, not to mention working in a call centre. In any case, those who've been Rogers customers for long enough may remember the days (in the late 90's and early 2000's) when Rogers "high speed" Internet used to go down 2-3 times a day on average. Throughout it all, Rogers continued charging customers $50/month, and never once offered a (partial) refund; once, I remember the Internet being down for nearly 24 hours.

In 1998, an Ontario court judge sued Rogers in small claims court, for failing to provide the services they said they would. When her Internet started going down for days (even weeks) at a time, she called Rogers tech support, who said nothing and did even less. She got frustrated with going around in circles, so she refused to pay her Internet bill (why should she have to pay for a service not being delivered?). Rogers, who apparently didn't care as long as she kept giving them money, sent a collection agency after her, who left intimidating phone messages at all hours and threatened to ruin her credit rating. The case never went to court, because Rogers developed a sudden allergy to bad PR and settled the case.

Another great customer support move by Rogers: negative billing. Does anyone else remember this? They sneakily added it to their deceptive "OneBill" (aka, the "bill-you-for-BS-services-and-hidden-charges" bill). Fortunately, there was a big enough customer revolt that Ted was forced to call the whole thing off. Speaking of Ted, did you know that terrorists actually stole his cell phone number (they did the same thing to a bunch of other Rogers customers)? Some people were hit with monthly phone bills of more than $1,000, showing long-distance calls to places like Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq. Rogers, in typical Rogers fashion, first pretended that there was no problem, and tried to force the affected customers to pay their hijacked phone bills. Again, the company was forced to back off by a CTV report on the matter, which cast them in a rather unfavorable light.

Now, a bit about Rogers "unlimited" "high-speed" Internet. First off, it's not unlimited. They throttle speeds at peak hours, and they throttle BitTorrent traffic a clear violation of the concept of Net neutrality. What's next, throttling YouTube because it's "becoming too popular?" Or limiting access to competitors' websites? Rogers recently asked customers to turn in their old modems so they could "upgrade", when in actuality all they were doing was switching them to a device that would allow Rogers even greater control over people's internet connections. Sorry, but I don't pay $60/month to get 5kbps upload speeds on BitTorrent (TekSavvy offers the same connection speed for $25/month, with no throttling of any kind). Rogers secretly started use packet shaping software on its network a little over a year, which is what has allowed them to throttle P2P traffic. Torrent client developers responded by adding features like transport encryption to their programs, to prevent the packet shapers from detecting Torrent data. Rogers has now responded by HEAVILY THROTTLING ALL ENCRYPTED TRAFFIC on its network. This not only affects P2P users, but also anyone using things like SSH, secure email and VPN in short, all of their business customers.

It'll be interesting to see how long Rogers can get away with this latest stunt. Hopefully, they'll be forced to back off. In the meantime, entire universities have had to switch service providers, because students are no longer able to access their email accounts remotely all thanks to Rogers.

Oh, and for anyone who's interested, Rogers actually has quite the fan club:

http://www.ihaterogers.ca
http://www.boycottrogers.com
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/rogers >>> a 12+ page thread of people who've canceled their Rogers cell phone/Internet/TV services)
http://www.iloveskydome.com/
http://eurojenny.blogspot.com/2006/0...te-rogers.html

Melanies Story As Submitted To Ellen Roseman At The Toronto Star:
Quote:
Dear Ellen,

I read your column often and have a story to tell you that I hope you will be able to publish and assist in its resolution as well as draw attention to the tactics that Rogers AT&T are pulling on their consumers. Here is my story.

I was diagnosed with a chronic health issue in May of 2002; I could have applied for disability but chose to work around my disorder instead. I am not capable of being employed full-time with a corporate company, as we all know they want healthy people they can work to death and anyone with disabilities or health issues wont last.

Since January of 2003 I have worked hard to build a business, unfortunately with lack of help from the banks, corporations who keep the little guy out and the stress of building a business my health became worse. My financial situation has become desperate, medications that I needed to take to control my disorder were no longer affordable (partly due to utilities such as Enbridge, Rogers Cable and Rogers AT&T being completely inflexible and forcing us into what worked for them pay, pay, pay NOW).

I have wanted to write to you about my experiences with Enbridge and Rogers Cable before but had enough battles to fight. Well today I cant take it anymore after going through the same unethical tactics of Rogers AT&T. My family has reduced our expenses and lifestyle wherever we could to try and survive and meet the basic necessities in life.

I had signed up for the Rogers AT&T cell phone two-year deal before I knew I wouldnt be able to maintain a full time job and that I would be diagnosed with a serious chronic health issue. In July 2003 the finances were drying up and the spiral downward began, my bill to Rogers AT&T was in arrears and I have done my best to rob Peter, Paul and then anyone else I could find to keep all the utilities off my back and reduce the stress it was causing which was also aggravating my health situation.

On October 27th, 2003 a Rogers AT&T representative contacted me (Reps name: Rama) about my outstanding balance. I explained that I was not able to meet the payment arrangement made as Enbridge had put the hammer to us and was going to cut our gas off if we didnt pay them, I had to choose what was most needed and that was gas supply. I explained to Rama that I had a medical condition and the plight we had been experiencing. At this point he offered me their 80/20 option, which means they would accept 80% of the outstanding amount. I took the day to think it over and contacted a Rogers AT&T representative the next day, October 28th, 2003 (Reps. Name: Ursula). I advised Ursula that I would accept the 80/20 option and requested cancellation of my service at the end of the contract (The contract I signed ended Nov. 2nd). Ursula informed me that the amount I would need to pay by November 20th, 2003 was $227.00. After this arrangement had been made I still received calls from Rogers AT&T requesting payment of the full amount and I had to inform them that arrangements had already been made. Then the other day I receive a letter from them in the mail (please see attachment of a copy of this letter) asking again to phone and make payment arrangements and informing me that my service had been reinstated!?!? Another part to this oh so frustrating story is that the phone I purchased when I signed up for the contract was only working intermittently in the summer of this year and the phone finally crapped out in August 2003. We took the phone to a Rogers AT&T authorized dealer as I had purchased the extended warranty, found out from the representative at the store that we would have to pay for servicing the phone and any replacement parts that may be required, so we needless to say did not get it repaired or even looked at.

Today (November 12th, 2003, eight days prior to the deadline) I went to a Rogers Video store and honored the 80/20-payment arrangement, agreement and commitment. I came home and phoned Rogers AT&T to report the payment and ensure that my request for the service to be cancelled as of the November 2nd, 2003 contract was done as asked for when I spoke to their Rep. Ursula on October 28th, 2003. The representative informed me that the 80/20 option would not apply if I were canceling my service!!!!! You can only imagine my reaction to this information. Long story short after trying to tell the representative my thoughts on the matter I was given the "its our policy", "Im sorry you were misinformed by the two other representatives, but there is nothing that can be done" etc., I asked to speak to a Supervisor, by this point my Husband had to handle the talking from there on. Bottom line from the Supervisor is that we now still have an outstanding balance of $117.42 and will go to collections if it is not paid, reason for this amount is that I dont qualify for the 80/20 option due to cancellation of a service my family cannot afford. Even after my Husband provided her with the time, date, location that the payment was made as well as the payment authorization number from the receipt he was told that no decision could be made for 48 hours until the payment was posted on their system and she would get back to him then with a decision in regards to our outstanding balance. She also advised him that we would have to call back after the payment had been posted to cancel the service (I guess so they can make some more money off of our backs for a few more days, just lovely) We cant afford to pay this new amount and it is beyond me how I incurred such a high amount when my service has been suspended since September. My Husband did his very best to explain the entire situation to which they dont seem to care if my Son is going without food and I without the medications I need to keep my disorder somewhat in control. . After mulling it over for a few minutes my Husband called back and told them to log the following in their computer system under our account "As far as we are concerned our account is paid in full and that any further balance should be sent directly to collections and well take it up in court".

My Husband assured Rogers AT&T that we would be contacting you and that they should watch for this story if they think they can just steam roll over people without any consequences. This is so unjust that when they do send it to collections we are going to fight it in court no matter what it takes. Where is the accountability with these corporations do I really still live in Canada? Can you trust anything a company representative tells you? Is it our fault the Representatives knew I was canceling and still accepted the 80/20 rule. I cant sit on their end and ensure that what I am telling them is being logged correctly in the computer and from my experiences with all the utilities this year there is a high error rate in communications occurring. Much of this due to the outsourcing they have implemented, just look at the phone calls I received after making payment arrangements? The proof is in the pudding as the old saying goes.

I hope you find this story as disgusting as I do and would be willing to write an article about it. Please feel free to contact me by phone or e-mail for any further details or information you may require. Thank you for your time and assistance.

Best regards,

Melanie B.

...And the list goes on. Just do a Google search. There's hundreds more satisfied Rogers customers, just like Melanie.
post #61 of 94
One of thosee US right wing nut jobs (Pat Robertson or Buchanen) referred to Canada as "Soviet Canuckistan" and, in this case, he is right. The CRCT (the regulating agency) is a politically appointed body (read room temperature iq's) whose primary role is to sit in closed door session and regulate issues to insure the profitability of the very few licensed operators under their jurisdiction. We cannot even get HBO.
post #62 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by panamajack View Post

3G is only available in the Greater Toronto Area anyways for now

UMTS (at HSDPA speeds) is rolling out in major urban centres right now with official launch scheduled for 1Q08.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post

Does anybody know if there is any infrastructural (is that a word?) reason for costs to be so high in Canada? I know it is a big country with a relatively small population, but I assume that Rogers would only be focusing on the population centers which would mitigate, to some extent, these costs.

How about the cold. Do the towers have to be constructed differently or with power-hungry deicers up there?

Or is it simply a case of a de facto monopoly that is trampling the people in Canada land?


No, no, bingo!

95% of the population is either in a major urban centre or within 100km of the US border so density is as high or higher then USA (even counting coverage of the major highways in-between everything), cold is not a factor, there you go:

The telecoms in Canada operate as a (silent, illegal) cartel—colluding to set fixed high prices because the regulatory agency doesn't smack them down and they are protected from foreign competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by panamajack View Post

A question on Cdn. data rates: aret there more competitive rates for enterprise users ? Blackberries are just as popular in the home of RIM has in other major business centers .... are Canadian firms just paying more, or have their economies of scale brought prices down ?

Nah, data rates are just as screwed for corporate users. RIM has been complaining for years that the high data rates hinder their business.
post #63 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by palex9 View Post

free medical care (lets not talk about the quality) is just about the only thing better in canada and europe.

It's not free. they pay a much greater percentage of taxes than we do. VAT also brings the cost of products up more. We don't have taxes on each stage of production the way they do.
post #64 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denton View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are no more national wireless carriers in the US than here in Canada: Sprint, T-Mobil, AT&T and Cingular to Telus, Bell, and Rogers. I doubt that the extra carrier makes for less collusion. I suspect that the problem in Canada is that both the population and population density are lower than in the US.

Once you have the wireless infrastructure in place, 5M or 50M people can use it just the same (perhaps with minor upgrades), and to reach everyone, the wireless carriers have to spread their resources over a larger area. There is nothing more to the higher data prices.

Outside of the coastal megalopolises, the US is pretty sparsely populated. At least, most Canadians live in the southern part of the country.
post #65 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by britwithgoodteeth View Post

How is this a Canadian phenomenon? The great majority of U.S. dealerships are closed on the weekends.

Some are. Not the great majority.

Besides, it's up to them.
post #66 of 94
Rogers are your typical evil money hungry corporation.

Mediocre to Awful Service
Mediocre to Outrageous Pricing
Extremely Annoying and Smug Advertising.

I'm a customer. They (Rogers/Fido) are the only carriers in Canada who run on GSM, which I need for my UK phone when traveling to Canada.

They really are a bunch of utter gits, but it seems like they have little reason to change cause they get away with this bull. Hopefully they will get their arm twisted by Apple to offer better plans for iPhone customers, but I wouldn't hold my breath for any sort of "value for money" compared with the US and certainly not Europe/Japan.
post #67 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by John the Geek View Post

I've never really understood Canada, Rogers is huge, it's the cable, TV, internet, phones... but it's Rogers.... That's like "Bob's Wireless" except his name is Roger. A better name wasn't available?

Maybe Rogers means something else in French?


Rogers Cablevision was founded by Ted Rogers in the 1960's, I believe. Rogers then acquired the long distance phone business of ATT Canada in the 1990's, and quickly introduced or bought a cell phone service.

Ted Rogers is still president of the company he founded and always looking for new ways to expand his business.
post #68 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's not free. they pay a much greater percentage of taxes than we do. VAT also brings the cost of products up more. We don't have taxes on each stage of production the way they do.

The USA actually spends more per capita on healthcare then just about anybody. Around 15% of GDP off the top of my head, against around 10% for the UK and 12% for Canada.
post #69 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric Monk View Post

The USA actually spends more per capita on healthcare then just about anybody. Around 15% of GDP off the top of my head, against around 10% for the UK and 12% for Canada.

We have higher tech healthcare, that's why the numbers are skewed. And in those other countries, as I saw on CNN the other night, in Canada, people spend about 20% of their money out of the system. The number is almost the same in England, France, etc.

I read somewhere, for example, that while canada had less than 100 CAT scanners (this was a few years ago, so both numbers might be higher), the US had over 5,000.

We also pay for the privilege of getting non life threatening operations without having to wait on a queue.
post #70 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

A silly law.

That's much worse than in the States.

It seems the truth about other places is finally leaking out.


It is a law implemented to protect consumers.
How do you feel about having to switch to AT&T? Don't you want to have the iPhone and at the same time choose your own service provider?
post #71 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

We have higher tech healthcare, that's why the numbers are skewed. And in those other countries, as I saw on CNN the other night, in Canada, people spend about 20% of their money out of the system. The number is almost the same in England, France, etc.

I read somewhere, for example, that while canada had less than 100 CAT scanners (this was a few years ago, so both numbers might be higher), the US had over 5,000.

We also pay for the privilege of getting non life threatening operations without having to wait on a queue.

For your consideration:
Average in-hospital treatment costs are nearly twice as much in the U.S. ($20,673 U.S. vs. $10,373)

There are 9.9 qualified nurses per 1000 population in Canada as compared to 7.9 nurses per 1000 population in US (so you get a highly personalized care!)

Overall satisfaction with the surgical experience is similar in both countries (85.3% U.S. and 83.5% Canada).

The number of acute care hospital beds in Canada is 3.0 per 1000 population as compared to 2.8 in US

Canadians have lower rates of in-hospital mortality (1.4% Canada vs. 2.2% U.S.).

Administrative costs consume more of the total cost of treatment in the U.S. (38.2% of total costs in the U.S. vs. 31.7% in Canada).

In-hospital cost of coronary artery bypass graft surgery (CABG) in the U.S. is 82.5 % higher in the U.S. than in Canada.

The mortality rate for end-stage renal disease is 47% higher in the U.S. than in Canada. Adjusted monthly costs of treatment are $503 higher in the U.S.

Fifty-seven percent (57%) of U.S. patients have reprocessed dialyzers used on them, compared with 0.0% of Canadian patients.

Compared with the American counterparts, low-income Canadians have a significant survival.

Advantage for 13 of the 15 kinds of cancer studied.

One-year mortality rates following myocardial infarction are virtually identical for both countries (34.3% U.S. vs. 34.4% Canada).

Canada has a higher rate of annual bone marrow transplants (0.89 per 100,000 population vs. 0.81per 100,000 in the U.S.)

Canada has lower mortality rates for patients 65 and older three years after both low-mortality (18.52% U.S. vs. 15.31% Canada) and moderate-mortality (19.19% U.S. vs. 16.63% Canada) procedures.

Survival rate for four disease condition is higher in Canada than in America:
o Colorectal cancer: 113 Canada vs. 108 U.S.
o Childhood leukemia: 118 vs.110
o Kidney transplants 113 vs. 100
o Liver transplants 123 vs. 102

The prescription drugs and medicines are far less expensive in Canada.

As for monopolistic tendencies, Rogers Cable (Toronto) charges $59 CDN for digital TV (including the box and access fee) and you get a choice from a 1,000 movies a month, up to 225 channels, up to 24 timeshifting channels and 16 HD channels. Whereas Time Warner Cable (Buffalo) its $52 US for Basic, Standard, plus 25 Digital Channels.Access up to 250 total channels, Movies on Demand, Free on Demand, Music Choice, and access to 8 High Definition Channels. Basically it appears they are equal and similar price comparisons are evident when you compare wireless and internet services.

As I pointed out before, the pre-launch iPhone outcry about how AT&T and Apple were going to rip us off was enormous. Turns out, much of the noise was for nothing primarily because the iPhone brought with it a need to re-structure the pricing plans due to the more ease of use, reduced support, services and infrastructure required to make it function. I would suggest that Rogers will provide a similar plan for Canada and that it will include unlimited data. It may or may not be priced the same but it will be close. What many haven't taken in consideration, much of the costs Canadians have had to bear building and supporting their wireless, cable and internet was borne by a low Canadian dollar. Now things are changing significantly, particularly in the past few months as their economy strengthens and yes the US weakens.

I can't remember exactly, but when the iTunes Music Store was introduced in Canada, the price per song was 99¢ CDN, however, their dollar was about 85¢US. Canada got a better deal. Sure their selection may be a little smaller and they had to wait much longer, but again (and it was commented here at AI) the pre-launch outcry was the same. Funny how in both cases, i.e., for the post-launch muted commentary for the iPhone and the iTunes (US/Canada), was in such contrast to the pre-launch screaming how "the world's coming to an end," because of the greedy likes of the corporate giants such as Apple and AT&T.
post #72 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by polar315 View Post

Rates for Canada are outrageous compared to elsewhere. Would love to have an iPhone but, do not see anyway I will be handing over a mortgage size payment to the Telco every month.

Data rates in the UK arn't that much cheaper. I'm interested to see what Apple are able to help offer over here.
post #73 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by techno View Post

. Hopefully Rogers will break the pattern and go for the gold and grab the iPhone. If the data rates dropped to a reasonable price, trust me plenty of people would use it and browse the web. .

Rogers drop their rates Me laughing my butt off.
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post #74 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

We have higher tech healthcare, that's why the numbers are skewed. And in those other countries, as I saw on CNN the other night, in Canada, people spend about 20% of their money out of the system. The number is almost the same in England, France, etc.

I read somewhere, for example, that while canada had less than 100 CAT scanners (this was a few years ago, so both numbers might be higher), the US had over 5,000.

We also pay for the privilege of getting non life threatening operations without having to wait on a queue.

Of course the U.S. has more CAT scanners than Canada their population is 10 times the size of Canada's! And it's no wonder why Americans don't have to wait in line for operations: there's 48 million people who've been booted out of the line because they don't have health insurance. Canadians like myself might occasionally have to wait a bit for a medical procedure, but I can assure you that the vast majority of those who need an essential medical procedure get it quickly. As for medical care being "better" in the United States than in Canada, that sort of "we're number 1" arrogance drives me nuts. Does the United States have some great hospitals and doctors? Sure but so does Canada (we've been a world leader in the field of medical R&D for decades). Really, the difference in quality of care at U.S. and Canadian hospitals in negligible. In fact, one of the only differences it that visiting a Canadian hospital won't lead to you having to sell your house and declare bankruptcy. Oh, and Canada doesn't have a Martin Luther King, Jr. medical center; we don't put elderly patients in taxi cabs and dump them off in the projects because they can't afford medical care.
post #75 of 94
There seems to be a perception that Canadians pay more, however, if you exam the fine print (which is very difficult to compare individual service plans) it appears that the prices between Canadian and US services are quite similar.

For example, Rogers has unlimited incoming calls for free in some of their plans or an extra $10 CDN as an option. We can't seem to find that in the AT&T plans.

Canadian plans offer unlimited nights and weekends period. No need to for roll-over as is necessary with the 5000 minute offers.

A Canadian colleague apparently pays only for the time (to the second) for his calls which was offered in the early cell days. No one minute minimum.

One site in particular has outlined some hidden costs and conditions that perhaps all of us should be cognizant of: http://www.newnetworks.com/attwirelessfineprint.htm.

Re Canadian vs US healthcare systems. Generally speaking Canadians pay less. Services while some Canadians criticise 'wait times' are overall better when evidenced by the lower mortality and morbidity rates reported under the Canadian system. The difference comes quite significant when you compare the have and have-not populations.

Interesting side bar here. During the SARs outbreak in Toronto a few years back, the Canadians reported nearly 100 deaths attributed to the virus. On the otherhand, the CDC reported over 450 cases with no deaths. On examining the data, it was shown that the CDC had changed the definition of the disease twice during the same period. Most mentionable was the exclusion of co-morbid diseases in patients being presented with so-called symptom of SARs. While Canada reported the death of a 99-year old male who died of acute respiratory symptoms compounded with cardiac arrest and diabetes, the CDC by definition would not include such a patient as a SARs candidate in the first place.

One other interesting finding was the overall reduction of the death and morbidity rates seen with the reduction of elective services with the closing of hospital doors to non-patients and non-emergency events.
post #76 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Canadian plans offer unlimited nights and weekends period. No need to for roll-over as is necessary with the 5000 minute offers.

Are you referring to 5000 free nights and weekend minutes or is 5000 anytime minutes the average for Canadain plans? If it's the former, the night and weekend minutes don't carry over in the states, only the anytime minutes do.
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post #77 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by zodieman View Post

John, Apple could also bluff Rogers with CDMA support if they didn't play ball. They could blacklist GSM and go the other route. Don't put it past Jobs to do this. I'm told he's VERY ruthless when it comes to negotiations.

But then they lose the whole 'World Phone' aspect of the device don't they? GSM covers pretty much everywhere. CDMA, is still a bit iffy, though it's getting better all the time.
post #78 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by britwithgoodteeth View Post

How is this a Canadian phenomenon? The great majority of U.S. dealerships are closed on the weekends.

Not in the parts of the US I've lived in. Weekends (specifically Saturday) are referred to by car salesmen as "GAME DAY." It is the biggest selling day. At least in the Phoenix area.
post #79 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinDrift View Post

Data rates in the UK arn't that much cheaper. I'm interested to see what Apple are able to help offer over here.

Yes they are. £7.50 for unlimited (2GB is apparently fair use) on T-Mobile. I believe some of the others also have flat rate packages like that.

Amorya
post #80 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomkarl View Post

Not in the parts of the US I've lived in. Weekends (specifically Saturday) are referred to by car salesmen as "GAME DAY." It is the biggest selling day. At least in the Phoenix area.

Yup, every place is open Saturday now, and more dealers are open on Sunday. Sucks if all you want to do is browse and get some pricing ideas without some annoying (or non-annoying, depending on which dealer you visit) salesman bugging you.
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