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Butterfly evolves 'instant evolution'

post #1 of 169
7/13/07 at 11:41am
Thread Starter 
Butterflies on a Samoan island have for a considerable time been subject to a bacteria which kills off all the male larvae.

But now researchers have found that the males have suddenly made a comeback - to the point where their numbers equal those of the females.

Researchers monitoring the butterflies think that this may be the fastest case of evolutionary adaption yet monitored; something less than 10 butterfly generations or 5 of our years.

Is interesting no?

National Geographic
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post #2 of 169
7/13/07 at 11:44am
B-b-b-but... school taught us that evolution was just a theory... right?

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post #3 of 169
7/13/07 at 11:54am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism

Fellows
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post #4 of 169
7/13/07 at 12:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism

Fellows



National Geographic?

Keep posting those medical conspiracy theory threads...
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post #5 of 169
7/13/07 at 12:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism

Fellows

Fellowship. Explain yourself.
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post #6 of 169
7/13/07 at 12:07pm
  • Kickaha
  • Really Fast Typing Member
Yeah, sorry Fellowship, but this is precisely what this scenario shows: evolution in action.

Evolution is when a mutation comes to dominate a species. In this case, it's pretty clear cut: one or more males proved immune (the same way a few bacteria can be immune to an antibiotic), and were able, through the plethora of females, and no rival males, spread their genes in such a way that suddenly *all* (or the vast majority of the) members of the species had the same mutation. The species adapted to the environment. Normally it's a slower process, to have genes propagate through the species, but when you're the only males left, you have a *slight* advantage in that department.

I'm not sure how this is yellow journalism - perhaps you'd like to clarify your reasoning?
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post #7 of 169
7/13/07 at 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post

I'm not sure how this is yellow journalism - perhaps you'd like to clarify your reasoning?

Maybe he got National Geographic mixed up with Popular Mechanics.

Fantastic explanation Kickaha. Though it will be disseminated within minutes by somebody. Can't wait...
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post #8 of 169
7/13/07 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

B-b-b-but... school taught us that evolution was just a theory... right?


not anymore. Schools teach evolution as a fact, but say that the manner of it and that we all came from bits of nuclear material in a carbon/nitrogen soup is a theory. Oh, wait, you were being sarcastic. I didn't notice that at first.

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post #9 of 169
7/13/07 at 12:31pm
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Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Though it will be disseminated within minutes by somebody. Can't wait...

Might be a while until someone "disseminates" it.



*Decimate.
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post #10 of 169
7/13/07 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Might be a while until someone "disseminates" it.



*Decimate.

um...
http://www.answers.com/disseminates&r=67

Disseminate≠Decimate
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post #11 of 169
7/13/07 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post

um...
http://www.answers.com/disseminates&r=67

Disseminate≠Decimate

*Whoosh*
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post #12 of 169
7/13/07 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post

um...
http://www.answers.com/disseminates&r=67

Disseminate≠Decimate

Sorry. I didn't get any sleep last night and was relying on Firefox's spell check for me.
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post #13 of 169
7/13/07 at 1:17pm
fellowship:

You're a great guy, but you are way out of your element.
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post #14 of 169
7/13/07 at 1:27pm
I simply believe the NG needs to sell stories and get attention.

This is such a non story.

"In 2005 Hurst, Charlat and their colleagues did a less formal count, and didn't find any males at all.

But when the team returned in 2006, they found almost as many as females as males. A single male may have developed a mutation that allowed it and its male offspring to evade Wolbachia's hold and pass on their genes, the researchers argue."


If you believe that is scientific I have some swamp land I will sell you.

Fellows
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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

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post #15 of 169
7/13/07 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I simply believe the NG needs to sell stories and get attention.



Yeah, next thing you know you'll see hypolimnas bolina butterflies next to Brangelina and TomKat at the supermarket aisles.
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post #16 of 169
7/13/07 at 2:07pm
  • Kickaha
  • Really Fast Typing Member
Fellow, what about that is non-scientific?

Evidence gathered, leads to hypothesis, more evidence corroborates lack of males, suddenly males rebound, leading to new hypothesis that males are now better immune to parasite, evidence supports this... Of course, the real test for that would be to capture wild specimens, and subject them to infestation to see how they fare. Until then, it remains a solid hypothesis, with nice evidentiary support.

I'm still not seeing what your reasoning is on this. I will agree that the headline is a bit odd ("instant" evolution? what, just add water?), but the mechanism is exactly what one would expect to see from an evolutionary standpoint.

So... still wondering what your reasoning is on this...
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post #17 of 169
7/13/07 at 2:19pm
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post #18 of 169
7/13/07 at 3:12pm
Quote:
Yeah, next thing you know you'll see hypolimnas bolina butterflies next to Brangelina and TomKat at the supermarket aisles.

I jumped out of my seat so fast to go run and grab a copy that I broke my ankles.
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post #19 of 169
7/13/07 at 4:19pm
Fellowship under attack in an Evolution thread. Brings back great memories.
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post #20 of 169
7/13/07 at 4:46pm
Fellowship, what is your problem with this? This would seem to fit into Creationists' "micro-evolution" category, so I'm not sure why you're so keen to deny it. Are you trying to say that you believe DNA has no function whatsoever?
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post #21 of 169
7/13/07 at 5:19pm
I concur with Fellowship actually. Even micro-evolution doesn't happen that quickly!

The initial study was BS.

Dave
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post #22 of 169
7/13/07 at 6:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

I concur with Fellowship actually. Even micro-evolution doesn't happen that quickly!

The initial study was BS.

Dave

bs.

no seriously...

it does happen this quickly especially when there is an ABSOLUTE selective advantage to some mutation -- it has been observed to occur on this generation scale in bacteria regularly -- it should be the same for butterflies.
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post #23 of 169
7/13/07 at 8:39pm
  • Kickaha
  • Really Fast Typing Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

I concur with Fellowship actually. Even micro-evolution doesn't happen that quickly!

Okay, I'll bite... why not? What definition of evolution are you using, and what mechanisms inherent in said definition, such that this is simply impossible?

I outlined above the probable mechanism, and why it conforms to the given definition of evolution. What part of that do you have disagreement with?
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post #24 of 169
7/14/07 at 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

B-b-b-but... school taught us that evolution was just a theory... right?


In science, a "theory" holds a value of much greater certainty that does the term when used colloquially.
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post #25 of 169
7/14/07 at 12:10pm
^I think he was joking, but you never really know with SpamSandwich.
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post #26 of 169
7/14/07 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Fellowship, what is your problem with this? This would seem to fit into Creationists' "micro-evolution" category, so I'm not sure why you're so keen to deny it. Are you trying to say that you believe DNA has no function whatsoever?

To be honest I don't deny it. I just don't wet my pants like so many others when such a non story is pushed by a poorly run publication like NG.

But hey it does get people talking....

sort of how Paris Hilton does....

Take some non news and throw it out there for the masses to wet themselves over.

Sorry I just don't get excited over non stories.

Fellows
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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #27 of 169
7/14/07 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

^I think he was joking, but you never really know with SpamSandwich.

I guess I gotta start using larger smileys.

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post #28 of 169
7/14/07 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

To be honest I don't deny it. I just don't wet my pants like so many others when such a non story is pushed by a poorly run publication like NG.

But hey it does get people talking....

sort of how Paris Hilton does....

Take some non news and throw it out there for the masses to wet themselves over.

Sorry I just don't get excited over non stories.

Fellows

National Geographic is a poorly run publication? Oh, dear. I wouldn't recklessly attack their probity.

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post #29 of 169
7/14/07 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

To be honest I don't deny it. I just don't wet my pants like so many others when such a non story is pushed by a poorly run publication like NG.

But hey it does get people talking....

sort of how Paris Hilton does....

Take some non news and throw it out there for the masses to wet themselves over.

Sorry I just don't get excited over non stories.

Fellows

touchy!
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post #30 of 169
7/14/07 at 2:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

To be honest I don't deny it. I just don't wet my pants like so many others when such a non story is pushed by a poorly run publication like NG.

But hey it does get people talking....

sort of how Paris Hilton does....

Take some non news and throw it out there for the masses to wet themselves over.

Sorry I just don't get excited over non stories.

Fellows

The masses are certainly wetting themselves over hypolimnas bolina butterflies.

Keep talking.



"Next on Larry King Live.. the butterfly that has everyone talking!"
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post #31 of 169
7/14/07 at 10:13pm
Evolution is clearly seen in antibiotic resistant bacteria. It's not a threat to religion, just a fact that things change over time. People who feel threatened by evolution need to get a grip.
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post #32 of 169
7/15/07 at 10:34am
In what sense is National Geographic "poorly run"?
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post #33 of 169
7/15/07 at 9:58pm
The NG article is about a 1 page article appearing in Science (13 July 2007 issue) titled "Extraordinary Flux in Sex Ratio."

NG and several other news outlets including Reuters (see Samoa butterflies quickly evolve, avoid extinction) reported on this study.

These were probably based on the UCB PR titled Researchers witness natural selection at work in dramatic comeback of male butterflies released 12 July 2007.

The lead author was Sylvain Charlat is a post-doc at UCL/UCB, Moorea, French Polynesia.

[CENTER]
Female



Male[/CENTER]

So basically NG had nothing to do with it except to report it, as many others did. Yellow journalism MY ASS!

BTW, if you actually read the Science article the research presented appears to be quite sound. Also from the images above it is quite easy to tell the difference between a male and a female.
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post #34 of 169
7/15/07 at 10:00pm
Does anyone really think this will prove anything to a creationist? I'm kinda with Fellows in the sense that running to AO and posting a thread that proves again and again what you already know to be fact is pointless. Which member of AI are you trying to convert from their side to our side? Fellows?

BTW Fellows the article is published in Science and NG is just covering it. Science is kinda good.
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post #35 of 169
7/15/07 at 10:07pm
kinda?

understatement.
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post #36 of 169
7/15/07 at 10:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

kinda?

understatement.

As my three year old would say "I'm telling a joke. I'm joking, it's funny."
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post #37 of 169
7/15/07 at 10:22pm
mydo:

The world is not divided into creationists and "Darwinists". There are many who simply do not know what the issues are or are "undecided".

These types of discussions are read by more than hard-liners. There is a huge audience to be convinced, whether you want to acknowledge that or not.
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post #38 of 169
7/15/07 at 10:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mydo View Post

Does anyone really think this will prove anything to a creationist? I'm kinda with Fellows in the sense that running to AO and posting a thread that proves again and again what you already know to be fact is pointless. Which member of AI are you trying to convert from their side to our side? Fellows?

BTW Fellows the article is published in Science and NG is just covering it. Science is kinda good.



Only in AmeriKKKa! From a 2005 MSU survey by John D. Miller.
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post #39 of 169
7/15/07 at 10:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post



Only in AmeriKKKa! From a 2005 MSU survey by John D. Miller.

That's the percentage of people who think that evolution is true, is it not? Should probably label that in some way.
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post #40 of 169
7/15/07 at 10:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post

That's the percentage of people who think that evolution is true, is it not? Should probably label that in some way.

Yes, Blue believe evolution is true, Yellow is unsure, Red believe evolution is false.
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