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post #161 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post

In your rant against Christianity, you said (paraphrasing here to make the point) that a group is defined by what they are doing, not their ideals. Which then changes their ideals to what they are doing. Right? Or at least close? Then when talking about man and astronomy, you said that man doesn't want to be bothered by all the trivial crap that comes our way, but just wants to be left alone and discover. But, Since we are concerned about this, than this is what we want. Still good? So man wants to be immersed in this junk constantly, but also wants to be left alone to discover, which are mutually exclusive events. So you either are either lying, using faulty logic, or applying a double standard to man and Christianity. I assumed the last as you seem to be an otherwise intelligent individual, but biased against the religiously inclined.

Feel free to correct me if your implied meaning was different than my interpreted one.

I said a group is defined by what they are doing and not their ideals. If that group becomes perverse and corrupt, then it doesn't matter what the original ideal was - especially when the ideal was always relative to start with.

I know this bores some people, but God and Jesus are not absolutes, else my statement would be wrong. God and Jesus being absolute, then there would be an original ideal, and there would be deviance from it.

Deviance from an absolute would mean that people calling themselves Christians would be liars, and not Christians at all, because there is an absolute benchmark to measure against.

We dont have this because whatever we chose to learn about Jesus and God is a relative to our environment, our learning and interpretation. There is no absolute benchmark that we can use to decide what the original ideal was and who is complying and who is not.

Deviance from a relative is just a new relative, and should be judged on what is doing today.

Therefore we are in no position to judge who is being a good Christian, or who is being a bad Christian, because we can only ever have a biased interpretation of what Good Christain is. There is no absolute benchmark to take reference from.

Your so-called benchmark, Jesus is not here to give us his opinion, so you rely on your relative interpretation of his ideals. On the other hand if you take the Bibles words as the absolute benchmark, then all Christians are wrong.

So, if someone decides that they are a christian, then they are a christian, and christianity is the sum of all the people who are claiming they are Christians.

Likewise for every group, including Athiests etc.

Now, there might be a group - which I would subscribe too - you might call it 'peace loving hippy' aka 'PLH' group, that just want to learn, discover, and explore.

The sum total of this group is what we would be doing, and that would be learning, discovering and exploring. If the group became perverse and corrupt, then we would be perverse and corrupt, just like any other group ive mentioned.

Now here is the important fundamental difference I would subscribe too.

If the PLH group becomes corrupt, I leave and have nothing to do with it anymore, I abandon all ties and links to the PLH and publicly deride it for being sick. Its not absolute the PLH is always going to stand for the way it was founded regardless of whatever happens.

If for instance we had a charismatic founder or leader, but he wrote stuff down that people later misinterpreted that caused them to act like f.morons, we rip up these words and start again, with something people do understand in this era. Later if in a new era those words cause problems, we rip them up and start over.

Christians, Muslims etc will not do this. Foolishly thinking that they follow something absolute, they're destined to becoming more and more perverse as the passage of time flows from their inception, and their interpretations become more and more corrupted from the original intent.

There is no hope for a group of people thinking they are following something absolute, who are not prepared to toss out the cancer of their corruption because of some godly-elevated idealistic tosspot founder - especially when, if were benchmarking ourselves against a false absolute - absolutely he never was real anyway.

Relatively, all religions evolved from a blend of astrology and philosophy. Something entirely relative since its inception.

You cannot claim an absolute benchmark and then split into 10,000 different sects all with a relative interpretation in regard to eachother of something so-called absolute - at best 9,999 of you are corrupt and perverse and thus wrongful liars.

You cannot claim an absolute benchmark when your founder is either a personified "philosophizing solar entity" or just another human preaching "philosophized astrology". Its utter madness to take it absolutely.

If however Jesus was at inception meant to be symbolic of a mythical relative fluid montage of wisdom for humans to take relatively and fluidly as a guidance through life.....but that is not what is happening right here and now.
post #162 of 169
And I wish my Hindu friends a happy Janamashtami.
post #163 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post

Please lock this thread. It is 'a corruption of the founder's intent'. (teehee)

And apparently 12 (disciples) + 1 (Jesus) * 12 (disciples each) + 13 (the original 12 + 1)=170.
13*12+13=169

TFTFY!

Technically both you and MarkUK haven't done the math!

JC = 1
Twelve Apostles (TA) = 12
Disciples of each of the TA (DETA)= 12

And are you talking about total cumulative Christians (living and dead), or total living Christians at any one point in time?

By my math; JC + JC * TA + TA * DETA = 1 + 1 * 12 + 12 * 12 = 157 total cumulative Christians.

Total living Christians would be less than or at best equal to 157.

And remember we aren't even counting the followers of these earliest Christians!


Read all about in my new book JC: The Wonder Years (aka The Dark Life of JC from 12 thru 30 Years of Age). It's all about sex (with all genders and species of the animal and plant kingdom, drugs, and rock & roll (stoning) plus breaking all 10 Commandments many. Many, MANY times!

To err is human.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #164 of 169
170-157=13. Unlucky for me I guess.
post #165 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

TFTFY!

Technically both you and MarkUK haven't done the math!

JC = 1
Twelve Apostles (TA) = 12
Disciples of each of the TA (DETA)= 12

And are you talking about total cumulative Christians (living and dead), or total living Christians at any one point in time?

By my math; JC + JC * TA + TA * DETA = 1 + 1 * 12 + 12 * 12 = 157 total cumulative Christians.

Total living Christians would be less than or at best equal to 157.

And remember we aren't even counting the followers of these earliest Christians!


Read all about in my new book JC: The Wonder Years (aka The Dark Life of JC from 12 thru 30 Years of Age). It's all about sex (with all genders and species of the animal and plant kingdom, drugs, and rock & roll (stoning) plus breaking all 10 Commandments many. Many, MANY times!

To err is human.

It was a sarcastic equation. I know 13^2≠170. Since his post was using a hypothetical model for what really happened, Jesus got 12 more disciples in Marc's world. Of course at this point Jesus has already died, and so had Judas. I was just mocking the fact that even with his own made up math, he still was wrong. Also, there were many many more disciples than 12, there were just 12 chosen to be apostles.
Serving humanity one sarcastic comment at a time.
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Serving humanity one sarcastic comment at a time.
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post #166 of 169
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post

there were just 12 chosen to be apostles.

This cannot be right...Judas cannot have been chosen to be an apostle on a normative theological reading.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #167 of 169
hey, why dont we all argue over my parable!
post #168 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

This cannot be right...Judas cannot have been chosen to be an apostle on a normative theological reading.

Luke 6:12-16
Quote:
12One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. 13When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: 14Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, 15Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, 16Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.
Serving humanity one sarcastic comment at a time.
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Serving humanity one sarcastic comment at a time.
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post #169 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post

Luke 6:12-16

hey! check the astrological symbolism in that verse!!!!
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