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Would putting a standard slot-loading DVD drive in the Apple TV make sense right now? - Page 4

Poll Results: Would putting a standard slot-loading DVD drive in the Apple TV make sense right now?

 
  • 52% (52)
    (I have read your post) Putting a DVD slot in the Apple TV makes sense right now
  • 48% (48)
    (I have read your post) Putting a DVD slot in the Apple TV doesn't makes sense right now
100 Total Votes  
post #121 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtotes View Post

Because Sony subsidises the high component cost of PS3 though sales/licensing of games.

Good point. Also because Sony takes something like a 250-300 hit on each PS3.
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post #122 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecking View Post

Good point. Also because Sony takes something like a 250-300 hit on each PS3.

The PS3's highest cost components (drive, and processor) have gone way down since it's introduction. I don't think the hit is anywhere near that big anymore.
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post #123 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

The PS3's highest cost components (drive, and processor) have gone way down since it's introduction. I don't think the hit is anywhere near that big anymore.

Totally agree. If anything I'd say they are nearing profit per machine at this stage. There's also 350 new PS3 games coming out by March 08. 200 on shelves and 150 on the network.
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post #124 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtotes View Post

Because Sony subsidises the high component cost of PS3 though sales/licensing of games.

So you're saying that the cost of the BR drive by itself is greater than the retail cost of the PS3 player? Or that you failed to read the statement?

Again, why would a aTV with BR reader cost more than a aTV AND a PS3 (aka $1000). $299 + $599.

Answer. It doesn't. With a standard height BR burner the cost is $699 retail. Slimline drives dropping in price as well as more and more notebook makers are including them (like Dell). By this christmas I would expect the BTO price on slimline BR to drop below $500 from Dell from $650 today.

Vinea
post #125 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

So you're saying that the cost of the BR drive by itself is greater than the retail cost of the PS3 player? Or that you failed to read the statement?

Again, why would a aTV with BR reader cost more than a aTV AND a PS3 (aka $1000). $299 + $599.

Answer. It doesn't. With a standard height BR burner the cost is $699 retail. Slimline drives dropping in price as well as more and more notebook makers are including them (like Dell). By this christmas I would expect the BTO price on slimline BR to drop below $500 from Dell from $650 today.

Vinea

I don't think the current aTV spec has the horsepower to manage 1080p/24 source media. It would require more advanced parts....... at minimum...

1) core2duo cpu
2) nvida 8600 video

more $$ to build on top of $299+$200 (BD/HD drive)...... which is basically a Macmini on steroid.
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post #126 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post

I don't think the current aTV spec has the horsepower to manage 1080p/24 source media. It would require more advanced parts....... at minimum...

1) core2duo cpu
2) nvida 8600 video

more $$ to build on top of $299+$200 (BD/HD drive)...... which is basically a Macmini on steroid.

I thought the Toshiba DVD player was a 2.5Ghz P4M with a Broadcom BCM7411D?

The aTV has a 1Ghz Pentium M and a 7300. Based on the old rules of thumb the 1Ghz M is around the performance of a 2Ghz P4M though maybe not in this case. Was video decode netburst friendly? I forget now.

I would hope that by now there is a lower cost Broadcom or other SOC that can do decoding with lower CPU loading. The BCM7440 SOC does BOTH Blu-Ray and HD-DVD even though mostly its associated with HD-DVD.

They sure as heck aren't shipping a Core 2 Duo + 8600 in the $460 Samsung BDP1200.

Vinea
post #127 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

I thought the Toshiba DVD player was a 2.5Ghz P4M with a Broadcom BCM7411D?

The aTV has a 1Ghz Pentium M and a 7300. Based on the old rules of thumb the 1Ghz M is around the performance of a 2Ghz P4M though maybe not in this case. Was video decode netburst friendly? I forget now.

I would hope that by now there is a lower cost Broadcom or other SOC that can do decoding with lower CPU loading. The BCM7440 SOC does BOTH Blu-Ray and HD-DVD even though mostly its associated with HD-DVD.

Vinea

Well, toshiba HD-DVD player has it's own video & audio designated circuitry other than the 2.5GHz Mobile P4 cpu runing the OS.

When/if aTV uses BCM7440 along with designated audio processor can/may work with current PentiumM with 1GB of ram.

Adding extra circuitry may or may not cost as much as having C2D + Nvidia 8600, but would still cost more.

I'd still pick Macmini on steriod over the aTV with a optical drive.

Quote:
They sure as heck aren't shipping a Core 2 Duo + 8600 in the $460 Samsung BDP1200.

If they did, then all those Standalone HiDef players would run MacOS X and iTunes like aTV..... would probably cost a lot more to make, too.
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post #128 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post

Brendan, address some of the questions and suggestions put to you please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

I don't have time right now Walter, later.

Still waiting
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post #129 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

So you're saying that the cost of the BR drive by itself is greater than the retail cost of the PS3 player?

Yes it is. Sony make a loss (or until very recently have been making a loss).

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Again, why would a aTV with BR reader cost more than a aTV AND a PS3 (aka $1000). $299 + $599

aTV = $299
standalone BR drive = $999
(admittedly this is a burner but I can't find the cost of any raw players)
= $1298 total

PS3 = $450
aTV = $299
= $849 total

An aTV and a standalone BR drive costs more than an aTV and a PS3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Answer. It doesn't. With a standard height BR burner the cost is $699 retail. Slimline drives dropping in price as well as more and more notebook makers are including them (like Dell). By this christmas I would expect the BTO price on slimline BR to drop below $500 from Dell from $650 today.

PS3 doesn't use a Standard Height burner and nor would aTV. I'm sure the prices will continue to drop and soon my statement will cease to be true.


References:

http://store.fastmac.com/product_inf...roducts_id=195

http://stores.channeladvisor.com/blu...itemid=4359657
post #130 of 163
A Blu-ray combo drive only costs less than $299 retail or maybe less than $150 OEM. It can read BR discs and can write to DVD at 12x and to CD at 24x. Add that to an Apple TV as an optional extra for $200 or so. Here's why it'd be good to have:

You should be able to download movie rentals from iTunes one day soon, I hope, and you should be able to rent and buy movies from Apple TV without going to your Mac first. Movies that you download you should be able to burn to DVD. The HD in the Apple TV can hold the movies that are rented and the movies you buy. If there's a DVD burner onboard, you could burn to DVD right from your Apple Remote using the new Apple TV.

This just seems like a logical upgrade that'd greatly improve lagging Apple TV sales. I hope Apple announces movie rentals this fall. If that happens, Apple TV sales should take off, especially if it has a Blu-ray combo drive.
post #131 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo View Post

A Blu-ray combo drive only costs less than $299 retail or maybe less than $150 OEM. It can read BR discs and can write to DVD at 12x and to CD at 24x. Add that to an Apple TV as an optional extra for $200 or so. Here's why it'd be good to have:

You should be able to download movie rentals from iTunes one day soon, I hope, and you should be able to rent and buy movies from Apple TV without going to your Mac first. Movies that you download you should be able to burn to DVD. The HD in the Apple TV can hold the movies that are rented and the movies you buy. If there's a DVD burner onboard, you could burn to DVD right from your Apple Remote using the new Apple TV.

This just seems like a logical upgrade that'd greatly improve lagging Apple TV sales. I hope Apple announces movie rentals this fall. If that happens, Apple TV sales should take off, especially if it has a Blu-ray combo drive.

Show me where I can get a combo blu ray drive for that little.
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post #132 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtotes View Post

Yes it is. Sony make a loss (or until very recently have been making a loss).

aTV = $299
standalone BR drive = $999
(admittedly this is a burner but I can't find the cost of any raw players)
= $1298 total

So you're saying that the internal BR drive in the PS3 costs MORE than $450 despite the fact that iSuppli says it costs $125? Riiiight.

There's no bleeding way the OEM cost for the BR drive in the PS3 exceeds $450. Because then, not only is the BR drive price subsidized but you're paying ZERO for the CPU, the GPU, memory, HDD, controller, PS2 chip, case, connectors, EVERYTHING.

So instead of losing $306 per unit they're losing $750+ per unit.

Quote:
PS3 doesn't use a Standard Height burner and nor would aTV. I'm sure the prices will continue to drop and soon my statement will cease to be true.

Your statement was wrong the moment you wrote it.

Vinea
post #133 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

Show me where I can get a combo blu ray drive for that little.

Google for Pioneer BDC-2202A. Should run you $299.95 most places.

Contact Pioneer for qty 1000.

Vinea
post #134 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

The aTV has a 1Ghz Pentium M and a 7300. Based on the old rules of thumb the 1Ghz M is around the performance of a 2Ghz P4M though maybe not in this case. Was video decode netburst friendly? I forget now.

Yes. Pure encode/decode/compression jobs were pretty much the only thing where Netburst was competetive with AMD offerings.
post #135 of 163
According to specs, the AppleTV can currently play 720p @ 24 fps. While Apple may be able to push it to 720p @ 30 fps, there's no way you're getting 1080i or 1080p at even 24 fps, much less full BR framerate of 60 fps.
post #136 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Your statement was wrong the moment you wrote it.

Vinea

The first three references to back-up my statement (there are many more).

- http://blogs.business2.com/utilitybe...loss_is_a.html

- http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05...plus_forecast/

- http://www.betanews.com/article/Play...old/1163688668

Sony didn't need to make a profit on the PS3 initially. Games sales and the future success of Blu-Ray is the long-term goal and will make up for it. Very similar to the loss-leader principle.

I will conceed that I am surprised at the low cost of the Blu-ray slot-loading player. At that price it should be an option on the iMacs! ;-)
post #137 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtotes View Post

The first three references to back-up my statement (there are many more).

- http://blogs.business2.com/utilitybe...loss_is_a.html

If Sony is only losing $240 on the PS3 there is no way the BR drive costs Sony $499. Unless you think the rest of the console only costs $240 to make.

Oh...amazingly enough the author of this article (and iSuppli) doesn't make such a stupid claim. They claim the BR drive costs Sony $125. So much for this reference...did you even read it?

Are you even reading what I write? Because it sure doesn't seem like it when I use the same $125 estimated cost to refute what you say.


This says Sony was losing money on the PS3. Sure given they were losing more than $200 per unit at the beginning.


Same as #1. BR drive costs Sony $125.

Quote:
Sony didn't need to make a profit on the PS3 initially. Games sales and the future success of Blu-Ray is the long-term goal and will make up for it. Very similar to the loss-leader principle.

I will conceed that I am surprised at the low cost of the Blu-ray slot-loading player. At that price it should be an option on the iMacs! ;-)

WTF? I never said that Sony wasn't losing money on the PS3. Just that the assumption that a bare BR drive costs $999 is wrong so the conclusion that adding a BR drive to the aTV MUST result in a unit price of $1000 or more is wrong...with the caveat that you don't mind a full height drive.

Go back and read the thread. I spelled it out COMPLETELY for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

So you're saying that the cost of the BR drive by itself is greater than the retail cost of the PS3 player? Or that you failed to read the statement?

Vinea

PS If Sony isn't using a full height drive even better although the aTV should have a BR burner IMHO if it is to have an optical drive at all. it didn't seem that slim in the teardowns but I didn't look that close.
post #138 of 163
So whats going on with the Apple TV, any new developments...
post #139 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adjei View Post

So whats going on with the Apple TV, any new developments...

Well it's getting direct iTunes store connectivity, with a custom designed iTunes UI that will work with the Apple remote. I say this not cause I know anything about it in fact, but because it's obvious. What Apple really needs to do is do a whole iPTV thing, where people can actually subscribe to iTunes and watch watch any TV show in the store, so they could dump their cable box, and truly pick their own programming. I still believe in the slot-load drive too, and I also still believe in the Apple television with Apple TV built inside. We'll see how it pans out though.
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post #140 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

I still believe in the slot-load drive too, and I also still believe in the Apple television with Apple TV built inside. We'll see how it pans out though.

Dreamer!
keep dreaming is good for you!
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post #141 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gugy View Post

Dreamer!
keep dreaming is good for you!

So you're telling me you don't see Apple making TV's in the next few years? I think it's just an obvious progression towards the company Apple wants to become. I'd bet money on the TV thing.
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post #142 of 163
It would make sense to put in that DVD drive right now.

The problem, chez Apple, is that once they put it in that feature, it's almost impossible to remove it from future models, and Apple envisions the future as moving from DVD to hard drive.

I think Apple wishes they could put it in for current models, but is compelled by future plans to avoid the temptation.
post #143 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

So you're telling me you don't see Apple making TV's in the next few years? I think it's just an obvious progression towards the company Apple wants to become. I'd bet money on the TV thing.

If I were you I'd keep an eye on that gambling habit you have. You keep assuring everyone you are right, have you been?

And are you EVER going to address any of the questions that have been put to you on this thread?
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post #144 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

S I'd bet money on the TV thing.

I am glad you leave far away from Las Vegas. You would be broke by now You don't seem to be very good in betting.

Peace.
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post #145 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post

And are you EVER going to address any of the questions that have been put to you on this thread?

I can't even remember those questions, and I sure aren't going to look for them. If you want me to answer them, ask me again. You only think I think I'm always right, because you think I'm always wrong. I'd be 'very' 'very' surprised if Apple didn't product a TV within the next few years, so much so, I would actually bet they will. Just like I'd bet they'll release a 16GB iPhone before Christmas, as I was saying ever before this German thing came out. Just as I said they'll do a mobile iTunes Store when others were saying they wouldn't. I'm no prophet, and no, I'm not always right, but I'm not always wrong either, like you'd like to think.

I'd never bet money on the Apple TV (iTV) thing, cause I'm unsure they are clever enough to see a huge opportunity in this instance. When it comes to this TV thing however, it's not only that I think I'm right, but I think it's 'so' obvious I can't understand why everyone isn't saying it. It's like lying on a road that only allows trucks, thinking maybe a truck wont come along, but eventually a truck does. This is that truck, and I'd say I'm 100% confident it's coming. Sure, nothing in this world is certain, I just have a strong feeling on this matter.
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post #146 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gugy View Post

I am glad you leave far away from Las Vegas. You would be broke by now You don't seem to be very good in betting.

Like I was saying, it's gonna happen. Just like the mobile iTunes store, it was bound to come along eventually. Don't worry, I'm not a gloater, I'll go easy on you when that TV arrives.
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post #147 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Like I was saying, it's gonna happen. Just like the mobile iTunes store, it was bound to come along eventually. Don't worry, I'm not a gloater, I'll go easy on you when that TV arrives.

I am glad you are thinking is coming. For sure I am not waiting 20 years for that, if that ever is going to happen.

Much better deal IMHO is to wait for version 2.0 of AppleTV hopefully with 1080p and 5.1 audio support and get one of the amazing 50" or 60" new generation plasma displays for example from Pioneer and enjoy it very soon. That would be nice. Once AppleTV gets a 3.0 version I just swap it for the new one for not much money and still enjoying my killer HDTV display.

AIO AppleTelevision doesn't sound good to me even if that ever happen because the reason above. But is that what you really want then go for it or keep dreaming about it.
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post #148 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Like I was saying, it's gonna happen. Just like the mobile iTunes store, it was bound to come along eventually. Don't worry, I'm not a gloater, I'll go easy on you when that TV arrives.

I think you could probably "claim" you were right already with one of the 24" iMacs, just bung a tuner in one of the usb slots on the back of it, I'm sure its only a matter of time till someone hacks front row to allow the TV through (look at all the hacks for the AppleTV)
Plenty of people "only" have a 24" TV and when Apple get round to the 30"iMac well you will have "won" you're bet.

But as I asked before (and likely STILL won't get an answer) what is your criteria for LOOSING this bet?
Simply saying "some time in the future Apple will do this, this and this" you can NEVER be proven to be wrong, therfore it is not a true bet as the odds don't exist to cover "some time in the future" ergo you cannot "bet" that you are right.
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post #149 of 163
Thread Starter 
The TV will appear before 2009, or I will do, em, something.. And no, 30" iMacs don't count. I'm talking a TV, just like the way the Apple TV isn't a Mac mini, it's designed for a different purpose. I don't know if the TV will have all the stuff I wish it will, but I do believe it will be a TV. Sure it very well be a reinvention of what a TV is, but it will be intended for entertainment (mainly video), not work.
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post #150 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

The TV will appear before 2009, or I will do, em, something.. And no, 30" iMacs don't count. I'm talking a TV, just like the way the Apple TV isn't a Mac mini, it's designed for a different purpose. I don't know if the TV will have all the stuff I wish it will, but I do believe it will be a TV. Sure it very well be a reinvention of what a TV is, but it will be intended for entertainment (mainly video), not work.

ok 2009 I can wait on 3009 not so much

I think a 30" iMac "could count", if it had a built in decoder but it would have to be standard as BTO wouldn't really mean that Apple were releaseing it, just allowing it as an option.
but isn't an iMac mainy intended for entertainment if thats why you buy it?

One could buy an AppleTV with the intention of turning it into a computer and so that would be its function but I know what you mean.

Glad we have some parameters now so that somebody somewhere can go "ner ner nee nerr nerr" or not
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post #151 of 163
Thread Starter 
In other words Walter, it wont come with a keyboard and mouse. Whereas a 30" iMac would.
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post #152 of 163
+1 Ireland, I'm with ya.
And hey, you're winning the poll by one.
post #153 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishyesque View Post

+1 Ireland, I'm with ya.
And hey, you're winning the poll by one.

Thanks! By two now
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post #154 of 163
Thread Starter 
I guess someone agrees with me
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post #155 of 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

I guess someone agrees with me

Wait. He's still in business? Didn't he like forget to pay his hosting bill and try to sell the domain name for like a trillion dollars or something?
post #156 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski View Post

Wait. He's still in business? Didn't he like forget to pay his hosting bill and try to sell the domain name for like a trillion dollars or something?

The digg effect.
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post #157 of 163
I'm also hoping the rumor is true, even given MOSR's sketchy record.
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post #158 of 163
MacOSRumors

you guys are desperate in order to believe these guys.

But, hey that would be nice to have a BR drive on a AppleTV for $399

Ireland, good job trying to resuscitate this thread so many times.
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post #159 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gugy View Post

MacOSRumors

you guys are desperate in order to believe these guys.

But, hey that would be nice to have a BR drive on a AppleTV for $399

Ireland, good job trying to resuscitate this thread so many times.

I told you I wouldn't gloat, but I never said I wouldn't make you aware of the errors of your ways.
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post #160 of 163
I am ashamed I was reading Digg.
And even more shamed I clicked on a link from Digg, but it was Ireland's post so I did it.
Bit I'm still ashamed that I answered the poll..
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Apple may refer to AppleTV as a hobby but they really want it to succeed in the long run.


Three scenarios that come to mine...

1) Apple finally getting the MPAA to allow 720p movie sales and/or 720p movie rentals at reasonable prices.

2) The MPAA has decided not to agree to Apple's demands thus Apple will release an optical drive to increase the viability of the AppleTV. But wouldn't the streaming and caching allow for the AppleTV to be able to stream from the Mac's optical drive or does that violate some sort of MPAA agreement?

3) If the MPAA--and now the RIAA--is really playing hardball all Apple has to do is install a DVR in the AppleTV with a larger HDD. AppleTV has sold more units than TiVo signed up clients last year. If Apple chooses not to charge a subscription fee for this service then it's 4th leg will be quickly solidified overnight as a major hit.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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