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Briefly: Apple offers developers new Leopard build - Page 2

post #41 of 98
The comment about the possibility that Apple's programming team may be over extended seems like it may be spot on. With that in mind, perhaps Apple needs to change some of their basic philosophy and start designing both the system and their apps to facilitate third party extensibility -- and to find a way to directly economically enfranchise third-party developers. The not-invented-here attitude is slowing things down to a snails pace, so they need to figure a way around it. There is no point in intentionally keeping your company small, if you aren't also going to keep it nimble.
post #42 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Apple previewed what it called a "near feature complete" version of Leopard, introducing previously "top secret" features such as a new 3D application dock and file "stacks."

Wow, arn't we lucky!
post #43 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by donebylee View Post

Frogbat,

Have you had any time to play around with metadata in Leopard yet? I'm hoping for better support for tagging files and searches based on metadata. Any insight is greaty appreciated.

hi,

fraid i didn't try that as i don't have much experience in meta tagging (tho i defo need to catch up there) so i didn't bother trying it out - spotlight's default hot key is now ctrl + space now - bit annoying for quicksilver users
post #44 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by macanoid View Post

In the new build the 3D dock can rotate vertically with a cube-effect, similar that what we've seen in Keynote. This allows you to bring up a new dock, filled with new icons. Effectively creating workspaces for docks. Really useful. I would definitely call that top secret.

(just kidding of course )

Damn. Now that I could use. It wouldn't be that hard to implement either. A couple of arrows on the right hand side and making it work with a scroll ball/wheel mouse. It'd be lovely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr O View Post

The new Finder is great though, very iTunes like.

But iTunes is the worst app Apple do and after about 5 minutes of CoverFlow, I switched back to normal old list mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I think it's bigger than Tiger. "200 features", but I went through the list and I don't think I've ever needed more than five of them. I think better screen rotation and ease of swapping mouse button order are the two features that I actually use. If I get Leopard, I am sure I'll use ZFS and Time Machine. Maybe the stack feature. I'm not sure if the iTunes-ized Finder is an improvement.

I'm with you there with the doubts on the new Finder being an improvement except for two things - Networking that now actually works and the death of the spinning beachball. They could do something utterly terrible like a Windows style tree view or a ribbon and I'd be upset but networking that works and no beachball - I'll be sacrificing a moof cow to the gods of Claris in thanks.

I'm not so concerned about the dull blue folder icons. Easy replaced.
post #45 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by debohun View Post

The comment about the possibility that Apple's programming team may be over extended seems like it may be spot on. With that in mind, perhaps Apple needs to change some of their basic philosophy and start designing both the system and their apps to facilitate third party extensibility -- and to find a way to directly economically enfranchise third-party developers. The not-invented-here attitude is slowing things down to a snails pace, so they need to figure a way around it. There is no point in intentionally keeping your company small, if you aren't also going to keep it nimble.

And what company did more and faster? And what company would you consider has been most innovative HP (14), IBM (15), Dell (34th), Microsoft (49th), or little Apple (121st) in the Forbes 500 list?
post #46 of 98
@Abster2core

Yes, but the point is not was has happened, but how they go on from here. Up until a few years ago Apple just had computer hardware and computer software to innovate and develop. Now they have iPod hardware and software, and iPhone hardware and software. They have already admitted that the latter has caused 10.5 to be delayed, and as I point out on my original post, this in turn has led to a bottleneck delaying other products, iLife certainly and the iMac probably. As they expand from being a computer company into a consumer electronics company that also makes computers, they have to find a way to manage that without degrading the design excellence and general quality that is the brand.

Obviously they are aware of this, the new campus in Texas and so on, but these things have a long lead-in period, plus sufficiently skilled engineers and designers are not two-a-penny, and there is a lot of competition for them. debohun's ideas seem one plausible way of achieving that growth and diversification without sacrificing the quality of the customer experience that makes us all the happy Apple consumers we are.
Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
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post #47 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Welcome to the boards acslater. Great point. Leopard is a further refinement of what I believe is the best OS on the planet.

I cannot personally see an area that hasn't been touched in Leopard that vexes me in Tiger. The Finder is purportedly faster and doesn't hang with network mount/unmounts. It's a cleaner looking system and Spotlight has gotten more search options and polish.

I chuckle a bit when people state there is nothing they would use. Every OS upgrade has so many tweaks and improvements it's not just about the whizzbang features but about everything. I have a Core Duo...Leopard handles multiple cores better and Mail and Addressbook in Leopard will support the new nsoperation API. I'd like to know what is missing from Leopard. We have accelerated UI rendering now on a dedicated thread. We have Resolution Independence coming.

I'm impatient as well. I'm going to be moving to Leopard the first couple of weeks it is out.

I've done what I normally don't do. I pre-ordered the Family Edition from Amazon.

Usually, I get one copy and put it on one test machine. But, this time, both my wife and daughter want it right away, so I gave in.
post #48 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggsjm View Post

I'm suprised no one's thought about the fact that they are probably "borrowing" those key programmers to help with the update to the iPhone. Supposedly there's a huge update coming alongside leopard.

Its either that, or they have major issues. Is it me or is Leopard probably the lamest update (feature-wise) since OS 8.6 to OS 9. Tons of features! (But none you will actually use)!

No it is not just you. In fact I am still running OS8.6 on an older iMac because it is solid, reliable and Oh So fast!!!

OS9 was buuuuugggy!!!! and only there to make OSX look good when it finally arrived.

With Leopard I have gone from eager with anticipation, to disappointed at its no show, to impatient with its lack of features to dreading its awful transparent menus and 3D dock (The kind of Crap you expect from Microsoft).

My only hope, and a very slim one, is that it finally has done something about the irksome bugs in Finder that have persisted over multiple versions of OSX.

I maybe being a realistic pessimist, but think either another delay or a buggy release is imminent.
post #49 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr O View Post

What do you mean?! I love time machine, but I am a bit affraid of the 3D arrows and the tubular things on the right side of the screen. Also, the green flurry (in the middle of the screen) is a bit of a concern

The new Finder is great though, very iTunes like.

I agree the Finder is improved, except for the disclosure triangles on the left, they waste a column. You should enable/disable the various sections in an inspector. But the GUI overall is going backwards.

Look at the icons at the top of Mail - they look homemade. Where is the commercial polish? This is not Linux. Look at the big imposing grey block at the top of the active window, totally overpowering the rest of it. Look at the tacky see through menu bar. OS X used to look like it was designed by artists.
post #50 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

OS X used to look like it was designed by artists.

OS X Leopard, designed by interns.
:-D * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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:-D * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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post #51 of 98
Personally I think lots of bugs is good. It means that the OS is probably feature-complete and just needs some bug fixing.
post #52 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I agree the Finder is improved, except for the disclosure triangles on the left, they waste a column. You should enable/disable the various sections in an inspector. But the GUI overall is going backwards.

Look at the icons at the top of Mail - they look homemade. Where is the commercial polish? This is not Linux. Look at the big imposing grey block at the top of the active window, totally overpowering the rest of it. Look at the tacky see through menu bar. OS X used to look like it was designed by artists.

And where is your latest creation?
post #53 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

And where is your latest creation?

Abster, you know that's not a proper response.
post #54 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by djgamble View Post

Personally I think lots of bugs is good. It means that the OS is probably feature-complete and just needs some bug fixing.

Bugs are bugs. Never good.

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post #55 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I agree the Finder is improved, except for the disclosure triangles on the left, they waste a column. You should enable/disable the various sections in an inspector. But the GUI overall is going backwards.

Look at the icons at the top of Mail - they look homemade. Where is the commercial polish? This is not Linux. Look at the big imposing grey block at the top of the active window, totally overpowering the rest of it. Look at the tacky see through menu bar. OS X used to look like it was designed by artists.

I've stated my dislike of the OS "update" in numerous posts (I actually though OS9 was very snappy and responsive, X has seemed like it is stuck in molasses since it's introduction)...

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #56 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I've stated my dislike of the OS "update" in numerous posts (I actually though OS9 was very snappy and responsive, X has seemed like it is stuck in molasses since it's introduction)...

Supposedly, they've fixed that in the Finder, which was where most problems of that nature resided. (Um, nice sentence!}
post #57 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

And where is your latest creation?

I'm not claiming my creations are superior, I'm claiming their earlier ones are.
post #58 of 98
I used Leopard for a while, and when I went back to using Tiger again I caught myself thinking

"Oh yeah, I really hope the subsequent builds of Leopard are more like Tiger..."
OK, can I have my matte Apple display, now?
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OK, can I have my matte Apple display, now?
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post #59 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Look at the icons at the top of Mail - they look homemade. Where is the commercial polish? This is not Linux. Look at the big imposing grey block at the top of the active window, totally overpowering the rest of it. Look at the tacky see through menu bar. OS X used to look like it was designed by artists.

You can get rid of the "big imposing grey block" at the top of the active window by clicking the horizontal tubular thing on the right side of the grey block.

Speaking about Mail, I am still using Gmail as Mail is not able to streamline and elegantly manage my many conversations. When is Apple going to address this issue? Mail should be treated like a messaging program, just like Google does with Gmail.

In Gmail, I am also giving multiple tags to my messages. One message could be tagged with "design studio" and "finances" at the same time eg. Both tags are visible in my Gmail inbox. With Apple, you'd have to copy the message into different folders
post #60 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr O View Post

In Gmail, I am also giving multiple tags to my messages. One message could be tagged with "design studio" and "finances" at the same time eg. Both tags are visible in my Gmail inbox. With Apple, you'd have to copy the message into different folders

Have a look at MailTags - simply wonderful!!
post #61 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by macanoid View Post

Have a look at MailTags - simply wonderful!!

euhm, I think you lost me It's not mentionned in "Mail help"!?
post #62 of 98
sorry, should have posted a link, it's a mail plugin: MailTags Use it all the time - absolutely wonderful!
post #63 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

But iTunes is the worst app Apple do and after about 5 minutes of CoverFlow, I switched back to normal old list mode.

iTunes is the sexiest Jukebox out there! Coverflow works great with Mighty Mouse! And play count is giving me instant feed back about my current mood iTunes even let's me add images to the official cover art of the cd!!

Coverflow should be introduced into Safari as well. It's allready being the case with the iPhone, but imagine all of your bookmarks being displayed like updated web flicks inside Safari!

And finally: Coverflow should be introduced to Address book, Front Row and iPhoto as well.
post #64 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by macanoid View Post

sorry, should have posted a link, it's a mail plugin: MailTags Use it all the time - absolutely wonderful!

Owmygod! This sounds absolutely brilliant! Thanks a lot! I'm gonna try it
post #65 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by gastroboy View Post

With Leopard I have gone from eager with anticipation, to disappointed at its no show, to impatient with its lack of features to dreading its awful transparent menus and 3D dock (The kind of Crap you expect from Microsoft).

Wait, I thought only the top menu bar was gonna be transparent?! < Which is great as it will add a little feng shui to the desk top! It will also make the menu bar a little less prominent.

I hope they do not make all the little menus transparent?! eg. like the inspector palette in "Word" and "Excell". This is just plain silly
post #66 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I've done what I normally don't do. I pre-ordered the Family Edition from Amazon.

Melgross, what does your experience and gut feeling tell you?! > Do you think the buggy Leopard Beta is gonna make it?! Of course, there are 31 days in October

It is actually only 9 weeks from Steve's keynote in January. Maybe it's better to introduce Leopard with an all new MacBookPro. Meaning, you will have to look for another Xmas present for your relatives
post #67 of 98
Yes! 100, One Hundredth, post! I am now part of the 3 digit club
post #68 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by debohun View Post

The comment about the possibility that Apple's programming team may be over extended seems like it may be spot on. With that in mind, perhaps Apple needs to change some of their basic philosophy and start designing both the system and their apps to facilitate third party extensibility

Huh? Almost everything in Mac OS X relies on frameworks that every third party developer has access to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by debohun View Post

The not-invented-here attitude is slowing things down to a snails pace, so they need to figure a way around it.

The huge amount of open source and open standard stuff in Mac OS X doesn't really show a NIH attitude to me.

I guess you didn't know Apple in the Classic days.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #69 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr O View Post

Owmygod! This sounds absolutely brilliant! Thanks a lot! I'm gonna try it

you're welcome. be sure to also check out the MailActOn, MailFollowUp and MailTypeSelect (the latter does find-as-you-type!

back on topic now
post #70 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogbat View Post

Coverflow and quickview will prove invaluable and stacks is very comfortable though most folder will display in grid making the fan out a bit superflous

I noticed that too. The fan out doesn't even work on the side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frogbat View Post

the use of a downloads folder will help

I have a downloads folder anyway so it's not a big deal for me. It seems to be like Apple are just forcing people to do what they should be doing already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frogbat View Post

finder could be souped up even more- make it more powerful , explorer still kicks its arse in displaying and sorting information. sorting should be better handled in column view and an option to have folders at the top and bottom should be given

I still can't figure out how to list folder items by size in Windows. Where's the option to calculate folder sizes? The navigation is worse IMO as it feels like I'm using OS 9. I use column view all the time and I haven't seen anything in Windows that has the same functionality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frogbat View Post

the 3d dock grew on me and i found it better than the current one the open application indicator took more time to get used to

Once I made it black, I started to like it but it's still too high up and I think it should have had less of an angle to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frogbat View Post

the new standard folder icons are a bit sombre

Yeah but it's a change. We Mac users get so little variety in the interface, I'm glad just to see something new.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign

But iTunes is the worst app Apple do and after about 5 minutes of CoverFlow, I switched back to normal old list mode.

I'm the same in itunes but not the Finder. I don't have any cover art so coverflow is kinda useless but it's great for flipping through image collections. It's very fast even with high res images. Still no animated gif support though, I don't know why Apple don't support this.

One thing I really dislike about the Finder coverflow is how it jumps you back to another view if you double-click a folder. It doesn't stay in coverflow mode. Also, you only get a list view beneath coverflow. They could have easily put column view under there. I actually don't understand why coverflow is a new view option. I would have preferred if it was just a slide down option. So say you are in column view, hit a button and coverflow slides down above it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiah

I used Leopard for a while, and when I went back to using Tiger again I caught myself thinking

"Oh yeah, I really hope the subsequent builds of Leopard are more like Tiger..."

Haha, I thought the same thing too. Leopard's interface should be called inyourface. Tiger just seems quite refined. The dock is not invasive and the drop shadows are subtle. I don't like the gradients on the new menus either.
post #71 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

I noticed that too. The fan out doesn't even work on the side.



I have a downloads folder anyway so it's not a big deal for me. It seems to be like Apple are just forcing people to do what they should be doing already.



I still can't figure out how to list folder items by size in Windows. Where's the option to calculate folder sizes? The navigation is worse IMO as it feels like I'm using OS 9. I use column view all the time and I haven't seen anything in Windows that has the same functionality.



Once I made it black, I started to like it but it's still too high up and I think it should have had less of an angle to it.



Yeah but it's a change. We Mac users get so little variety in the interface, I'm glad just to see something new.



I'm the same in itunes but not the Finder. I don't have any cover art so coverflow is kinda useless but it's great for flipping through image collections. It's very fast even with high res images. Still no animated gif support though, I don't know why Apple don't support this.

One thing I really dislike about the Finder coverflow is how it jumps you back to another view if you double-click a folder. It doesn't stay in coverflow mode. Also, you only get a list view beneath coverflow. They could have easily put column view under there. I actually don't understand why coverflow is a new view option. I would have preferred if it was just a slide down option. So say you are in column view, hit a button and coverflow slides down above it.



Haha, I thought the same thing too. Leopard's interface should be called inyourface. Tiger just seems quite refined. The dock is not invasive and the drop shadows are subtle. I don't like the gradients on the new menus either.

True enough that we don't get enough variety in the interface.

inyourface? dude, it should be called, "unseeablyinyourface"- half of it is slick, half is transparent, and half is, well, in your face!
post #72 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

I still can't figure out how to list folder items by size in Windows. Where's the option to calculate folder sizes?

Calculate folder sizes? Is it that much different between OSs? On OS X, the only way I know is "get info" and in Windows, you get "properties". The only difference I see is that Finder has a hot key for it, Explorer does not.
post #73 of 98
After playing a bit with it I don't find the new build any buggier than the previous build, and it contains quite a few small changes (and finally a Danish spelling checker).
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #74 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I'll do the same thing I've been doing for years... wait for 6 months for the major bugs to get ironed out, then buy it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acslater017 View Post

hmm...smart. but i'm too impatient.

Me too. I've ben using at my main OS since 9A466.

There are plenty of bugs, but there are new features (many not even mentioned at WWDC) that I just can't live without now so going back to Tiger is a no go for me now.
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post #75 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

there are new features (many not even mentioned at WWDC) that I just can't live without now so going back to Tiger is a no go for me now.

care to name your top-5? I'm just curious.
post #76 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by macanoid™ View Post

care to name your top-5? I'm just curious.

I wish I could, but NDA is in effect.

What I can say is that I love the new Download folder. I have been using one in my Dock for a couple years now, so it's nice to have this one with an even easier to access files. I'm not fond of the 3D Dock, though.

I do love Mail having Notes, To-Dos and an RSS reader built in. RSS Menu was my previous favorite reader. Not perfect, but ot offered a very simple, unobtrusive way to se when you have new messages/articles. Safari's reader is nice, but I don't want to go to a site first to see if there are new articles.

iCal has some nice changes to it. Enough that I'm actually using it more so I guess that is an improvement.

The new Shared section in Finder is really streamlined compared to Tiger, as shown in the WWDC video. Many of the things I really like are the little things. The things Apple notices. The things Apple gets.

Quicklook as gotten better, especially with resources but I still find I only use it for PDF, Docs, Images, and Audio. Never for video. I prefer to click on it and use it QT instead.

Just know that I really like it despite its wonkiness. I think it will increase Mac sales even more, and there are many things in it that will help the iPhone interact with it and give it more features. *cough*Notes Syncing*cough*
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post #77 of 98
asdf.
post #78 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsider View Post

There is a new option in the Finder called Show Path Bar. Yeah, it is what you think it is.

That has been there since at least Tiger. But you have to customize the tool bar in Finder to add it. I just use the Command+click in the titel bar to see a path, but I'm glad they added it as a default.

I would prefer to see an option to add a permanent path bar like the one that appears at teh bottom of the window when doing a Spotlight search.
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post #79 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Calculate folder sizes? Is it that much different between OSs? On OS X, the only way I know is "get info" and in Windows, you get "properties". The only difference I see is that Finder has a hot key for it, Explorer does not.

I can (half) recommend the contextual menu extra CalculateSizeCM:

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/19014

which works perfectly and I find invaluable, but it appears to have stopped at 10.3 and is PPC only...\
Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
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Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, not even if I have said it, if it does not agree with your own reason and your own common sense.
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post #80 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That has been there since at least Tiger. But you have to customize the tool bar in Finder to add it. I just use the Command+click in the titel bar to see a path, but I'm glad they added it as a default.

I would prefer to see an option to add a permanent path bar like the one that appears at teh bottom of the window when doing a Spotlight search.

That's what I was talking about. There IS. Never mind though I retracted my post, nothing to see here. I can't believe you caught it though. it was only up for like 15 seconds.
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