Apple to host Mac event next Tuesday - Page 12

Watch it will be the long awaited new Apple cinema displays with built in iSight.

Er...your adjuncts aren't in it as a real job are they? While I agree about the middle class being squeezed all the adjuncts I know either have a day job or are doing it prior to finding a tenure track job or are doing it short term in between other gigs for "fun".

For these folks the lack of benefits kinda comes with the territory.

The majority of adjuncts I know they do it because they like teaching. The money is soooo small it's not worth considering.

Vinea

If I said $400 something I misquoted. i haven't gone back to look but I'm recalling $500 something. But heck, I dunno...but I am looking at some really inexpensive 22" monitors so maybe $400 something is possible.

If you only need a desktop, the iMac is cheaper. Of course, that said, if you only need a computer and not OSX i can build a cheaper and more capable mid-tower running windows than the iMac.

APPLE could build a cheaper and more capable mid-tower than the iMac. But it doesn't and it's still growing well. Likewise, a MB + montior solution is sub-optimal vs an iMac but probably no more a death knell than the lack of a mid-tower in Apple's lineup.

Again, I am not saying I think the iMac is going to get axed any year soon.

Vinea

Of course it does, HP, Dell, Acer, Gateway are all tier 1


I agree to a point. They are not as invested in other forms of technology like Toshiba, Sony, Panasonic. Not even close


Uh No. Dell and HP primary business are computer systems, Dell and HP even make plasma tvs but you even know anyone that owns one, I don't.



You attempt to use terms that you don't even understand. Your merging companies that make computers systems their primary business with companies that are fully invested across a full range or consumer electronics.

Companies like Apple, Dell, HP, Gateway, Acer need to sell computer to keep the doors open, Companies like Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba do not.

You keep using Toshiba as your example its an invalid example. A company can also be a tier 1 computer maker and sell other products.

Besides non of this is the actual point. The point is, even talking moble computing Apple is so far behind the hardware curve its even starting to piss off diehard Apple fans.

Apple or should I say Steve Jobs still thinks he can create a product and play in his own arena, that just doesnt float anymore.

The fact is as much as Apple would like to be a hardware company they aren't, at least not a good one. The only advantage they have and Steve Jobs is holding onto it for dear life is their OS. If users could run OSX on any system they wanted only the most diehard Apple fanboy would be using Apple hardware which by the way except for the case is the same hardware found in any system today.

There's that whole iPod+iTunes business, which has nothing to do with OS X. I hear that's doing well lately.


Of course, except for the case... and the features... and the design... and the way those work together. Same thing, really. I mean, they're all made out of the same atoms anyway.

Of couse ipods and itunes will do well for a good while, unless people truly get tired of DRM restrictions.

The features and the way they all work together have very little to do with the actual hardware in fact mac laptops on average have a fairly high failure rate because of heat issues. Not to mention did you notice that all the laptops across the board had battery issues, thats because they all use the same hardware.

Macs work well because the software in most cases is a highly controlled bundle that was built to work together. Has nothing to do with hardware, macs work well because of software and how its controlled.

If Steve Jobs thought he really built hardware that was better than everyone else he wouldn't lock his OS to only run on Apple hardware.

You twist the argument around.

Apple also hasn't had a dock for so long that most people forget they ever had one.

Your pointing out Toshiba simply doesn't matter. It's of no account.

Apple isn't a Windows company. Toshiba can exist because it IS a Windows company. People can buy Toshiba laptops, and Hp desktops. It doesn't matter.

Apple must sell both, because if a potential Apple customer wants a mid priced desktop, they MUST come to Apple.

I know you want to ignore that, and maybe you can. But we don't have to.

To say that a mid tower is not required because Apple hasn't had one in the lineup for so long is a preposterous statement. How do you know that it isn't desirable? You don't. You point to a thread where a few might say they want a 20" luggable, but you ignore all of the people who have been calling for a mid tower? That's very selective.

Your argument is not valid because you base it on a hypothetical product that doesn't exist. That, and the fact that only Apple produces OS X based products, means that what happens in the PC world can't happen here.

And, if you're correct, and the iMac is so undesirable compared to Apple's portables, as I've said, and you denied (but then repeated), then the reason why Apple sells so many portables compared to laptops is not, as you assert, because people want Mac laptops to such an overwhelming extent, but because they want a Mac, and the only desirable ones that don't cost an arm and a leg are the Mac Books, which are the much bigger selling of the two laptop lines Apple has (because it's cheaper).

And so don't say that I've constrained the discussion, because you're the one who attempted to do so. If I grant you the possiubility of a dock, then you must grant me the possibility of a mid tower.

But, no tower, no dock. You can't have it your way.

Your other incorrect assumption is that everyone who buys an iMac want a MB or MBP as well. Most don't.

It's that simple.

Actually they aren't. HP and Dell are Tier 1. Acer, Toshiba, Gateway and Lenovo are arguably Tier 2.


Fine genius. You find me a credible source that says that Tier 1 compter category is limited ONLY to those companies that ONLY make computers as a primary business.


Which means very little when it comes to talking about successful computer makers. Saying that Toshiba is not a successful computer manufacturer is nutty.


Repeated assertion doesn't make it true.

From news articles the Tier 1 vendors today are Dell and HP. Every one else in the top 5 list is arguably Tier 2. That means Acer, Gateway, Apple, Lenovo, Toshiba. Some folks consider everyone in the top 5 Tier 1. Sometimes they'll drop Toshiba since Acer and Lenovo both have twice its share.

Gateway sure as hell doesn't qualify as Tier 1 anymore if you aren't counting Toshiba Tier 1. Another couple qtrs at this rate and Apple, Toshiba and Acer will push it out of Top 5 in the US.

If Toshiba magically captured 25% market share it would be Tier 1 regardless of its other business. Heck, if it broke double digits folks would consider it Tier 1 as the very clear #3 maker.

So if Toshiba isn't Tier 1...so what? Neither is Apple and Toshiba remains bigger.


So far behind the curve that it's gaining share...starting to piss them off so much they've stopped buying or buying more than ever? How odd for unhappy people to start buying MORE stuff.


The market disagrees. That's both stock market and computer market.


Apple is a systems company that realizes most of its profits from hardware. Slapping OSX on a whitebox doesn't translate into the same user experience.

If that's all you want get Ubuntu.

Vinea

Don't make me go back and quote every line you've posted. I've twisted WHAT? Be specific.


So? Repeating that docks don't sell doesn't make it true. If docks don't sell then Dell, HP, etc would have none either. Saying because Apple doesn't sell a dock means that no one wants to buy any is the same as saying because Apple doesn't sell a mid-tower that no one wants to buy any.

Both statements are CLEARLY FALSE.


Well...that's definitive. You say it doesn't matter so it must be true. Not.


And if a potential Apple customer wants a mid-tower they MUST come to Apple. Oh wait. They can't and yet Apple survives. So long as you can meet the core needs of a market segment then Apple can serve it. Apple has already PROVEN that it need not be in the optimum form factor or the lowest cost.


Ignore what?

First: I've shown that a MBP can fullfill every function of a iMac albeit at higher cost. Higher cost almost defines Apple.

Second: I've shown that the market for laptops is sufficiently large that Apple can continue to grow SIMPLY on laptop sales. Toshiba does count as a) it sells only laptops and b) its bigger.

Third: OSX is an ENABLING feature of going mobile. Not a hindrance. If Apple only made mobile products then you are constrained to buying ONLY mobile products. Just as you are constrained today to buy only laptops, AIOs, SFF and workstations and no mid-towers.


Desirable != required. Who's changing/twisting the argument now? Apple doesn't have a mid-tower in its line up and its market share is increasing and its stock price is stellar. IT SURE AS HELL AIN'T REQUIRED.

Nice to have? Perhaps. Jobs disagrees. If Jobs decides that the iMac is dead tomorrow, well heck, it may not be optimal but Apple sure will survive.


Not at all. I never said that a mid-tower is not desirable EVEN in the mid-tower discussion. I have always said they aren't REQUIRED because, I dunno, they aren't and there's proof every time you open the Apple Store page.

YOU asked who wants one. I pointed you at a thread. Go argue with them whether a heavy desktop replacement is desirable. I personally don't care that much.


Yes, because monopoly control gives you LESS power over a market place rather than more. Say what?

Find me a top 5 computer company that sells only AIOs and SFF desktops. There aren't any. APPLE ALREADY DOES WHAT THE LARGER WINDOWS COMPUTER MARKET CAN NOT DO. Saying that a Windows company has more product flexibility than Apple goes against evidence as easily found as http://store.apple.com. Apple sells millions of AIOs. No one else CAN.

OSX sells iMacs. Not as much the other way around.

OSX can't beat windows but it sure as hell gives Apple massive flexibility in its computer lineup in comparison to its windows competitors.


Your paragraph attempts to put contradictory words in my mouth.

These are my statements:

The iMac is less desirable than xMac mid-towers.

The iMac represents lower value than most windows desktops.

The Apple laptops represent better value then iMacs when compared to windows counterparts. In some cases Apple laptops are equally good values in comparison to their windows counterparts.

One reason that Apple sells so many more laptops than desktops is due to the fact that laptops sales are growing very quickly. You can see this in Toshiba's growth numbers as well as that of Acer and HP mobile growth numbers. All exceed desktop growth numbers.

That Apple's desktops are strange form factors (SFF and AIOs) are a secondary factor. Even if Apple had mid-towers you would STILL see laptop sales growing far faster than desktop sales.

Finally, it is my opinion that Apple has optimized itself for laptop sales by using its desktop sales to subsidize laptop pricing. It uses merom and other laptop compnonents in the iMac to gain another 500,000 merom buys per qtr for larger discount from Intel. This translates to higher margins and/or lower notebook pricing at the expense of increased desktop sales. This is a strategic trade that Apple has deliberately made.


Jeez, stop being a little baby. You completely miss the point to boot.

Fine no dock...its not that critical anyway although I do consider it a primary convience factor to make things Apple simple.

Even with no dock there STILL isn't anything the iMac can do that the MBP cannot and there are MANY things the MBP can do that the iMac cannot.

Namely anything you can stick into an expresscard slot. These exist. I can buy an eSATA card for my MBP today and connect it to an external eSATA chassis. I can attach a 1-4 slot PCIe chassis to my MBP.

Do that with an iMac.

The dock makes it convienent as it would be very easy to attach and detach. I can see that Apple wants to go wireless except for MagSafe and for 90% of users it can. The dock makes it easier for the rest of us that still end up tethered to cables.

Vinea

yep exactly that. It was seem somewhat strange if they dont update their stock in their local "brick and mortar" stores within a few days of announcement like 1 or 2. It would be somewhat misleading to still be showing older models while newer ones are available. Maybe if they cant restock they will just remove all the old imacs.

Shipping times on iMacs are still 24 hours everywhere...

Mel, I think you are missing Vinea's point somewhat. He just made a small comment a couple of pages back, and has now been forced to defend it.

What he is saying is this: Apple could survive if it were to sell only laptops. I agree. However, I don't think that it would be a good business move.

So Vinea, you've already said you don't expect it to happen, but do you think that Apple going laptop-only at this point would actually be a good idea?

Er... What???


What crap. Apple make the best laptops on the market at their respective price points. (With the proviso that the MacBook needs a minor update to deliver X3100 graphics, hopefully that'll happen tomorrow).

There are some frustrating gaps in their line-up, but that's a different matter.

They need to keep producing desktops so they can keep getting unis to build super computers.

There is also a need for super graphics and multi HDs and quad cores. Movie houses, pro musicians, etc.

No, not so much. If they can sell half a million AIOs at 28%+ margins good for them.

I don't see how they can afford to lose the Mac Pro anyway so strictly speaking I don't think they can move totally to laptops unless they also want to dump the high end pro market.

Maybe when all our apps live in a Google cloud of services...

Vinea

The 1U XServes have higher compute density than the Mac Pro. The Mini I dunno but they're getting a bit old.

Vinea

I agree. I have a MBP and I haven't seen anything on the market that I would rather have even if I could run OSX on it. Same for the MB. It's still a damn nice looking machine with very competitive specs for it's price.

I was in a Sony store the other day and the TZ150 is pretty sweet. If it were Santa Rosa, had mini-DVI and ran OSX like the MB it would be near perfect for this generation of technology.

That and a slightly better port replicator that also had expresscard.

Vinea

The Sonys are the best looking pc laptops, IMO. I haven't seen the one that you refer to but I'll go over to Sony's website and give it a look.

The Toshibas, Dells and HP/Compaqs really look inferior to me compared to MBPs and MBs.

Not to mention they all come with those nasty anal probes and have the disturbing tendency to rearrange your dirty laundry into circles while you sleep.

The point that was made about the mid-Macs seems to keep coming up. And I think I just figured out why vinea keeps poo-pooing the concept.

He's seems like a laptop guy. Many laptop folks have a hard time undersatnding why any waste their money on anything that is not a laptop. I reserve the right to be wrong though...

I personally went with a refurb MacPro, for the very reason that there was not a xMac between an iMac, MacPro. I sure as hell didn't want a MB or MBP. I don't care how much you folks swear by them. :^)

I bought a Mac not because of some elitist ideal that Mac is the name brand to be spoken in the same breath as Mercedes and Coach. It is a superior OS no question. But I just don't see the value in forcing folks to buy overpriced hardware just for the opportunity of letting them use your OS.

All other things being equal, I'd buy Mac OS X and build my own spec'd tower from NewEgg. But of course that option is not avaliable. I'd be willing to wager that more folks than not would go that route, instead of having to settle for a cramped laptop or a minimally expandable iMac.

Good question with a good answer. Yes, a lot of people use them for that kind of stuff. Remember that there's a LOT of business travelers that need to do work while on the road or plane. They use them for that.

A lot of times people like to work away from home. Some feel it helps them focus on work more instead of watching TV, cleaning, being bothered by the kids, etc. If you can take your computer to the coffee house with you, you can get stuff done without distraction.

As someone in the academic environment, you might appreciate this next one. When I was a college student, my laptop proved invaluable for doing group assignments. I'd bring it to the library where we'd check out a conference room, sit around and develop our project. I did that a number of times.

One thing to remember in all of this is that a lot of times you don't want to (or can't) rely on someone else's computer to show your work correctly. I don't know how many times I've seen Powerpoint on one computer show a slide differently than the same version of Powerpoint on another computer. If you present your work from YOUR machine, you know you're in good shape.

I poo-poo the concept because Apple has thus far not released a mid-tower mac. This isn't a hard one to grasp.

So far what I've consistently said on the subject is:

• A lower cost tower around $1499-$1699 is likely.
• A lower cost tower is likely a single processor Mac Pro. Xeon and not Conroe.
• A mid-tower is not likely based on my perception of Apple's mobile centric strategy and current line up.
• A mid-tower is not likely based on the fact that there are no 28% margin mid-towers on the market and an Apple mid-tower would be directly compared against a Dell mid-tower and would lose horribly.

Yes, it is easier to try to categorize your opponent as someone who cannot understand your position rather than actually refute their arguments.


Bully for you.


All other things being equal, Apple doesn't give a rats ass about your market segment. The probability that Apple will release OSX for whitebox sales is zero while Jobs is iCEO.


Well duh. It would be cheaper for you. It would not be good for Apple or Apple users in the long run. Jobs is not Gates or Dell. Apple is not Microsoft nor Dell. The corporate mindset is very different and I suspect that the current management wouldn't be able to play Dell and Gate's game and win. It would be the early 1990s Apple all over again.

Fortunately they are bright enough to play by their own rules, on their own turf, to their own strengths rather than weaknesses and win the market segments they want to win.

Vinea

#1. You may be right, here. Question is, will it sell enough to remain in the line-up?
#2. Booo, expensive Xeon and it's expensive ram not needed.
#3. You mean Apple hasn't contacted you, me neither.
#4 I would like to see some numbers from Dell, HP, Compac backing up this statement.

I have no idea, but this is my biggest hope.


I've been reading this thread and am confused about why you guys are confused. At home I use a 15" tibook connected to a cinema display & keyboard and at work a 12" aluminum one with similar configuration.

Why do this instead of buying an iMac? Simple - it can travel with me. I can use it on a plane or in a hotel room. I really need a new home computer and have been putting off buying an MBP because of it's size. It's HUGH compared to the 12" one I usually carry around. Since I can't afford to travel first class, I can't see using the current MBP on a plane - it's hard enough to use the 12" one there.

And the MB is pathetically underpowered for working with 3d graphics applications. I was going to go to the apple store today to buy an MBP. Waiting oe day (or a month if it's not ready) for what I really want, just in case, priceless ..

single exon systems use the same chipsets and sockets as conroe

a mid-tower fits in to apples gaming plans.

A system starting around the minis price with on board video and slots to add video and other card with desktop parts can be done.

You really think so? If 24" iMacs @ $1999 are selling like hot cakes now, why would they drop the price by that much if at all? I hope you're right but I am expecting the worst in terms of pricing tomorrow (i.e. $1999 still being the price for a 24").

EDIT - I read your message wrong (you mentioned "tower" and not iMacs so I assume you don't mean iMacs). Regardless, I still wonder if the price of iMacs will drop at all....I doubt it.

So it will be a bad idea right up until such time as they do. At that point it will then be a good idea? How fast is that bandwagon moving exactly?


...or... knowing the perspective from which people view the world goes a long way in understanding their mindset. This is the reason I stated the idea of a laptop-only user.

But seeing what I typed this way doesn't enable a pointless Bart Simpson-esque "Zing!"

Wow, ya got me.


And that market segement would be exactly what? Answer carefully... investors are watching.



Brilliant quip. I'm on to you now! You are schooled in the tactics of argumentation and debate aren't you. Cornell perchance?



FOXPhotog

There quite a few female teachers who have children and can't hold down a full time job. They are hurting.
However, the thing that burns my a__ the most is that MDC is not paying their half of FICA - Social Security. The way they get around it is typical Big Business. Big business gets away with too d_____d much.

When I made that comment it was more along the lines as a BTO Mac Pro with only one processor installed. Kinda like the single CPU Dell Precision Workstations. Same FB-DIMM memory, motherboard, etc.

Vinea

They've had towers in this price range historically...like the low end single G5 Powermacs.

It provides some upsell opportunities in ACDs as well as vid cards and the like. Perhaps they do feel that the 24" iMac is good enough and never release a single processor Mac Pro.

Perhaps likely is not quite as accurate as "I sure hope so".

Vinea

More or a less a machine that is marginally less expensive than the dual CPU systems. What's so wrong with a state of the art Conroe-133/P33 system? Not 'premium' enough for you? Not good enough for you simply because every else has one?

No, its because they certainly have the technical ability to make such a machine but Jobs has for the last decade NOT done so. Now that Apple is on the upswing there is even less incentive.

Good idea or bad, historically Apple has not offered a mid-tower and therefore is less likely to than say...oh a company that has historically offered a mid-tower like Dell or HP.

I would say the same of Toshiba and Sony today as well. Unlikely to offer a mid-tower because they have deliberately decided to withdraw from that market as unprofitable for them.


Except for the fact you want to characterize me as a "laptop-only user" despite the fact that I've stated multiple times (including in this thread) that I also have a Mac Pro and a Quicksilver.

Therefore its a lot less about "knowing my perspective" and a lot more about pideon-holing to be dismissive.

I'm pretty damn tired of the xMac topic. I restated my position simply to be clear and avoid another round of words being put in my mouth.


The market segment with poor reading comprehension evidently. Is it unclear that the market segment would be those that would prefer to build their machines from Newegg?


So in this response you have addressed zero of the arguments but insist on discussing my character or perhaps lack thereof. Which means I pegged your intent on calling me a laptop user pretty much dead on. Bugger off, I'm retired from the xMac debate and mildly regret commenting on your post.

Vinea

If they think that, Jobs is completely delusional and needs to be replaced. The 24" iMac is about as powerful as a $1000 desktop at twice the price.

I hope so but it doesn't usually.


Can't help you there.


Well I can no longer claim to be Fake Steve.


So would I. Although looking at their average margin there ain't many things in their lineup with such margins. I don't believe they go into any more detail on margins for particular product lines any more than Apple does but I don't listen in on their conference calls.

Vinea

Ben, what you have always failed to notice is that I don't disagree with your assessment of the iMac or the attractiveness of a mid-tower for certain users.

If Apple made a mid-tower Mac with Conroe I would buy one in a heartbeat. I prefer a cube form factor but I'm flexible. As I noted, I DO own a Quicksilver and a Mac Pro.

Where we disagree on is that Apple MUST sell a Conroe based mid-tower Mac and that not to do so has some dire impact on Apple. Apple doesn't sell a Conroe based mid-tower, is doing wonderfully so why rock the damn boat? I can live without the mid-tower a lot better than Apple stumbling.

We agree that the iMac is a poor "value". You believe it is in Apple interest to rectify that. I think it is in my and Apple's interest to stay the course.

At BEST I believe that Apple will release a single CPU Xeon Mac Pro. That's if we're lucky although historically such a machine has been made so its not that big a leap of faith.

Vinea

Here's where you and I probably disagree the most.

I'll use Dell for my argument, just becasue.

My reasoning goes as follows:
Dell admittedly sells elebantygazillion more "razor thin margin" low end boxen than they do computers in the $800 to > $ 2000 range. Dell's margins, if my feeble brain remembers, hover in the 14% to 18% range(lately on the lower end). At a ratio of elebantygazillion to 1, the margins on the upper end, that being the $800 to > $ 2000 range, have to be in the 28% or higher range.

Michael Dell has in the past admitted that the low end computers are a drag on their margins. This we know. What we don't know is what those margins are. Me I'm guessing in the 5 - 10% range, with Dell hoping for upsale on add-ins. The $800 and up market is what, 10 - 15% of the total market. So for every 1 upper end, they sell 9 lower end.

Completely made up stuff:

$550 = ave. selling price low end
$1500 = ave. selling price higher end

9 units *$550 + 1unit * $1500 = $6000 total revenue
$6000 revenue * .16 margins = $960 in gross margin

assume X = margins for the higher end computers.
assume 10% = margins for the lower end(I'm being generous here)
9 units * $550 * .1 + 1 unit * $1500 * X margin = $960

$495 + $1500X = $960
$1500 x = $465
x = .31 or a gross margin of 31% for Dell's computers selling in the upper end, or in the $800 to > $2000 range.




the fine print: It took me quite awhile to get these numbers to work out in my favor.

So let me get this straight...

Speculating about updates to Apple's music technology is off topic, but chatting about FICA or which college has the better veggie burger or whatever it is you're chatting about is on topic? ... ... ...

I may just be a cat, but I know a NON sequitur when I see one.

incidentally, this thread is getting a lot of views reflecting mounting interest in tomorrow's event. Given that the majority of traffic on the interweb is likely to stop by this thread tonight, perhaps we should chat about what interests people most of all:

1) An update to Logic - while a long shot for tomorrow's event, clearly the topic of most interest to most people.

2) A refreshed iMac - a virtual certainty. While speculative drawings simply make slight variations to preexisting products, it's likely that, as Apple has done in the past, the new iMac will look nothing like its precursor.

3) dot Mac - this area has languished for a while, and if for no other reason than to not allow one area of the company to blemish another (and the fact that dot Mac services will be suspended during the announcement), Apple's internet services will likely get a face lift. I wouldn't be surprised if that will include greater integration with iPhone, increased storage allotments, improvements to sync, and a taste of Leopard.

4) An ultraportable - unlikely, but not out of the question, particularly if targetted to the Back To School crowd.

Rumored pricing-
$1,199
$1,499
$1,799

Interesting way of looking at the rumors...
$1,199 - 20" model
$1,499 - 24" model
$1,799 - New size?

So I think tomorrow's going to be:
.Mac enhancements/feature upgrades
New, Redesigned iMacs
iLife '08
iWork '08

That's it!
(of course I hope that I am wrong and there's more)

I do to. I dont like to wait for all my Mac announcments at different times throughout the year. Just dump a bunch of them on me at once.