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Apple developing configurable multi-touch gesture dictionary - Page 2

post #41 of 70
8/2/07 at 1:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I remember all the articles about how mice would never catch on, and what a terrible idea it was.

"You have to take a hand off the keyboard", they said.

"You then have to look for a menu, find the command you need, and then press the button", they said.

"You then have to bring your hand back to the keyboard", they said.

"It's much easier to remember a two or three key command for these things so you don't waste time and effort moving your hand, and eyes", they said.

They were right. The mouse never caught on.

We're getting the same thing now with those opposed to multiTouch.

Greasy hands on the keyboard or mouse, same thing as on the monitor, except that the monitor is vastly easier to clean. And, not everyone has dirty hands most of the time.

Much easier making gestures on a screen than using a mouse or keyboard.

People will get used to it, and wonder how we did without, just like the mouse (and trackball, which I prefer).

I'm totally thinking about it like this.

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post #42 of 70
8/2/07 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

There are things I like, and many things I don't like about multi-touch. One thing I don't like is the idea that my fingertips would be the components that would be wearing down, vs. the bottom of the mouse, or the nib of the wireless pen. Anyone consider this? Imagine the calluses from working on the multiMac(TM) 12 hours a day...

I take it you don't play guitar Spam?

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post #43 of 70
8/2/07 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsNly View Post

Apple needs to drop multi-touch and invent Thought-Touch, you think and it moves!

I can do that already, I think and 'it' moves.

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post #44 of 70
8/2/07 at 1:30pm
My chin will be on the floor if this gets introduced Tuesday.
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post #45 of 70
8/2/07 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

I can do that already, I think and 'it' moves.

If you follow the research, this is already being done, and it's getting better.
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post #46 of 70
8/2/07 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

There's nothing to love about mice or keyboard. I would welcome multi-touch into my life and don't care for 'tactile' feedback.

Data entry is faster via physical keyboard than virtual.

Mice gives you higher precision than trackball or touch screen.

Quote:
I think what you are missing is that while they mention computer they don't mention monitors because that's not the part that's getting the touch-screen, it's the keyboard that's getting the touch-screen. On the screens of tablets however, that's a different matter though. The tablet would be just like the iPhone with a pop-up keyboard when needed. Say goodbye to laptops I say, eventually.

Tactile response increases speed and accuracy. The efficacy of virtual keyboard has not been proven through usability study.

That said, templates can provide the physical feedback for position reference and you can create physical overlays on top of the multi-touch device. Buxton showed this in 1985 by creating sliders with a cardboard overlay.

A "wireless" keyboard could be created that would rest on top of the multitouch surface with no batteries or connections...just physical mechanism that pushed the key base down to the surface so it could be registered which would give you the tactile response of a real keyboard without any electronics.

Same with a wireless mouse to give you pixel accuracy. A fiducial will provide a reference point much smaller than any finger.

Now, in the future, multi-touch displays that also provide tactile feedback (via ridges and perhaps feedback pressure) would be possible. We can do multi-touch interfaces with tactile response now...they just aren't transparent.

You can see how a multi-touch display work surface could work in the 1992 StarFire video made while Tog was at Sun.

http://www.asktog.com/starfire/

Usable multi-touch/gesture based interfaces has been a goal of UI researchers since even before minority report.

Vinea
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post #47 of 70
8/2/07 at 1:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

I take it you don't play guitar Spam?

Not yet. Oddly enough, I play piano.

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post #48 of 70
8/2/07 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

If they deserve the patent(s), then they should get them. If they don't, then they shouldn't. Neither you or I can claim that we know enough about the field to have the last word on it.

Maybe not the last word but an informed word. I think that my knowledge of the field should speak for itself.

Regarding software patents and IP...far too many software developers have had to learn all to much about that.

Vinea
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post #49 of 70
8/2/07 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Maybe not the last word but an informed word. I think that my knowledge of the field should speak for itself.

Regarding software patents and IP...far too many software developers have had to learn all to much about that.

Vinea

We know nothing about your knowledge of the field. Enlighten us.
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post #50 of 70
8/2/07 at 2:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

We know nothing about your knowledge of the field. Enlighten us.

I have...I've been posting on most multi-touch threads...you can double check the info or judge it on its independent merits unless I decide I want to disclose my publications...if I have any.

What you can likely trust about me is that I am a software developer (not too lofty a claim...many geeks here) and I don't have a PhD (another negative that's not too hard to believe) and I can say I haven't been first author on any papers (not too tough a claim there either as I may never have been an author period). You can believe (or not) that I primarily write GUI code. There must be tens of thousands of folks that do UI work...none too lofty a claim there wither.

/shrug

As I say, anonymous internet credentials aren't worth a whole lot. What I write must stand on its own merits. If it doesn't sound informed well then neither am I right?

Vinea
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post #51 of 70
8/2/07 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

I have...I've been posting on most multi-touch threads...you can double check the info or judge it on its independent merits unless I decide I want to disclose my publications...if I have any.

What you can likely trust about me is that I am a software developer (not too lofty a claim...many geeks here) and I don't have a PhD (another negative that's not too hard to believe) and I can say I haven't been first author on any papers (not too tough a claim there either as I may never have been an author period). You can believe (or not) that I primarily write GUI code. There must be tens of thousands of folks that do UI work...none too lofty a claim there wither.

/shrug

As I say, anonymous internet credentials aren't worth a whole lot. What I write must stand on its own merits. If it doesn't sound informed well then neither am I right?

Vinea

We've both posted on these forums, so I'm not sure of what knowledge you skeaking of, but intellegent posting gets my attention first.

One thing I do know, after having done programming since 1966, until I got bored with the whole thing, is that those who program don't always have the best word on the subject.

There's a lot of the "not seeing the forest because of the trees" thing amonsgt programmers I've met.

There are exceptions, of course. Not making a comment about you here though.
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post #52 of 70
8/2/07 at 3:06pm
Thankfully, Apple doesn't care if things can or can't be done. They break the barrier every day. That is why they are successful and we remain unknown.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #53 of 70
8/2/07 at 3:11pm
When Apple (OK, after Xerox) produced the first mouse, people criticized it. How many computers today cannot be operated with a mouse?

I'm sure that if they are working on a multitouch interface of some kind that it will be criticized, too, just because it is not already common-place.

Living in the status quo (some call this "reality") is safe, but it doesn't get us anywhere.

Think different.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #54 of 70
8/2/07 at 3:26pm
Think differently.

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post #55 of 70
8/2/07 at 3:35pm
Steve says; "think different, as long as it's the same as me"

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post #56 of 70
8/2/07 at 3:45pm
Me's diff'ent.


I wonder what gesture one would use to make a correction on the new keyboard.>.?

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #57 of 70
8/2/07 at 4:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Me's diff'ent.


I wonder what gesture one would use to make a correction on the new keyboard.>.?

Middle finger?

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post #58 of 70
8/2/07 at 5:21pm
So the keyboard and iSight would work together to create a whole new user interface... I like it. Would it be possible to offend the computer? That would suck if you had a term paper or project deadline approaching.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #59 of 70
8/2/07 at 5:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Steve says; "think different, as long as it's the same as me"

Another great man to whom we owe a lot said "You can have any color you want, as long as it's black."

Sometimes I think t is these very stubborn people who really make the world. Sure, they may be a pain in the #$$ for those working under them, but the world benefits from their vision.


---

Apple will have to make a special keyboard for George "Monkeydude" Bush with new buttons: Random Country Select, Random Horribul Intel Data, Invade, Surge, Stay the Course, Abort, Lie, Spy...

I think just the middle finger button will do.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #60 of 70
8/2/07 at 6:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by appletweak View Post

This would be truly useful only if the gesture library could be user-configurable; I have several gestures I have practiced my entire life that I would like to use to, for example, delete spam or discard a pop-up window.

I don't think the multitouch interface can sustain many headbashings though. I'm not sure multitouch can sense a flipped bird either.
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post #61 of 70
8/2/07 at 6:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

When Apple (OK, after Xerox) produced the first mouse, people criticized it. How many computers today cannot be operated with a mouse?

I'm sure that if they are working on a multitouch interface of some kind that it will be criticized, too, just because it is not already common-place.

Living in the status quo (some call this "reality") is safe, but it doesn't get us anywhere.

Maybe it will catch on in a similar way. I personally hope that there's a way to get decent, useable & affordable multitouch on a computer, but we've had drawing tablets, touch screens and tablet computers for a long time and those haven't caught on, the mouse has. A person that's made the same prediction about the four devices would have been right three out of four times.

Right now, we need to see a "killer app" in order to get it accepted on the personal computer. I am more sure that the world will accept it on handhelds more than I am that the world will accept it on notebooks and desktop computers.

Anyway, hopefully multitouch catches on, that it surmounts enough of the the issues that prevented the older revisions from catching on. Right now, it's hard to say. Stuff like the patent discription gives me some amount of hope, but I can't just stop being realistic. I can see the vision, but I know that sometimes visions don't catch on.
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post #62 of 70
8/2/07 at 8:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Another great man to whom we owe a lot said "You can have any color you want, as long as it's black."
.

Excellent and appropriate quote.
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post #63 of 70
8/2/07 at 8:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

You can see how a multi-touch display work surface could work in the 1992 StarFire video made while Tog was at Sun.

http://www.asktog.com/starfire/

All I could think of while watching that was that I wouldn't want to go near her touch screen after she's been sneezing all over it and her hands.
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post #64 of 70
8/2/07 at 9:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Middle finger?

You just HAD to go and say it!

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post #65 of 70
8/2/07 at 9:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Maybe it will catch on in a similar way. I personally hope that there's a way to get decent, useable & affordable multitouch on a computer, but we've had drawing tablets, touch screens and tablet computers for a long time and those haven't caught on, the mouse has. A person that's made the same prediction about the four devices would have been right three out of four times.

Right now, we need to see a "killer app" in order to get it accepted on the personal computer. I am more sure that the world will accept it on handhelds more than I am that the world will accept it on notebooks and desktop computers.

Anyway, hopefully multitouch catches on, that it surmounts enough of the the issues that prevented the older revisions from catching on. Right now, it's hard to say. Stuff like the patent discription gives me some amount of hope, but I can't just stop being realistic. I can see the vision, but I know that sometimes visions don't catch on.

For most people drawing tablets are an unnecessary expense and complication. Touch screens are also expensive. Tablet computers have all been ahead of their time, way ahead.

The mouse is cheap.

Cost is the biggest factor in many technologies.

The technology for touch screens have become much more sophisticated, and cheaper. That, more than anything else will determine whether we will see them on computer screens.
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post #66 of 70
8/2/07 at 9:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

All I could think of while watching that was that I wouldn't want to go near her touch screen after she's been sneezing all over it and her hands.

Would you rather use a keyboard and mouse, or trackball, someone has been sneezing all over?

I would go for the screen. A quick wipe with a screen cleaning cloth and spray would fix it. How does one really clean a keyboard and mouse or trackball quickly and easily?
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post #67 of 70
8/3/07 at 9:01am
Maybe touchscreen will be figured out at some point, but I'm not convinced we are at that point now.

To me the big advantage of a mouse is the fact that your hand and wrist only have to move a few inches to move a the curser across 17, 24, or 30 inches of screen. With touch screen your hand has to literally move over that entire real estate. The cool factor would wear thin quickly and your hand, wrist, and arm would become fatigued.
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post #68 of 70
8/3/07 at 10:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

With touch screen your hand has to literally move over that entire real estate. The cool factor would wear thin quickly and your hand, wrist, and arm would become fatigued.

I agree with your hand, wrist, and arm becoming fatigued, also your hand will be a lot further from the keyboard than it would be for a mouse. But the cool factor fading, well I have to disagree.
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post #69 of 70
8/3/07 at 3:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Sure they never said the word "desktop" but does that really matter?

Yes, because AppleInsider copied the text from the patent but missed the word 'Desktop'.

Here's what the patent actually states...

"The computer systems can include, desktop computers, tablet computers, notebook computers, handheld computers, personal digital assistants, media players, mobile telephones, and the like."

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...DN/20070177803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland

I think what you are missing is that while they mention computer they don't mention monitors because that's not the part that's getting the touch-screen, it's the keyboard that's getting the touch-screen.

No. What you're missing is that this patent isn't about touch screens at all. It's about a dictionary application that links gestures to actions. Whilst it includes multi-touch devices it also includes sign language and voice commands. This is a software patent, not hardware.
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post #70 of 70
8/3/07 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

No. What you're missing is that this patent isn't about touch screens at all. It's about a dictionary application that links gestures to actions. Whilst it includes multi-touch devices it also includes sign language and voice commands. This is a software patent, not hardware.

Agreed. More functionality for the iPhone, and a Fingerworks style device built into laptops, and bundled with desktop macs.
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