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Apple stirs controversy with iMovie's '08 overhaul - Page 4

post #121 of 279
A couple of weeks ago, my wife attended a business conference where one presenter discussed the increased use of cell-phones and their impact on society. According to the speaker, many people (at least in Japan) do not buy computers, but use their cell-phones for everything, including sharing movies. Thus, the beginning user wants instant results and does not want to fiddle too much with the video; a couple of simple edits and send it off; instant gratification, in a sense. Cell-phones are increasingly powerful and soon, according to this guy, they may take over entry-level computers; many allow basic photo and movie editing as well as net surfing and some even allow document viewing and even some basic editing.

My point is that times are changing and Apple is creating iLife to fit with the times, whether or not some old-timers like us jump aboard or not (it's a business choice for them). The new iMovie does so and I think it does some things really well, but it also alienates some whose time came before. Thankfully, they left iMovie HD on our computers so that we can continue using it to make our epic films (and iDVD, too).

Today I used the new iMovie 08 to make a short 7 minute film from clips shot while making my rounds during the day. It worked really well for some things, drove me nuts sometimes but, at the end of the day, it had made a decent little short film rather easily and allowed me to very simply save it to iTunes. All in all, I thought it was pretty good for what it is intended to do: create short movies and send them off as soon as possible without that much fussing over making them the next super-polished box-office smash.

I loved the voice-over function, found the quick previews of clips pretty darn useful for finding just the right scene (though it has little use in much longer clips), generally prefer the UI to that of iMovie HD and certainly to Apple's pro apps that have tiny buttons, and love the ease with which I could apply Ken Burns to photos. The previews sometimes got tiring (especially after I had correctly chosen my desired portion of a clip) so I wanted a way to turn them off. I also wanted more time options; 30 secs is too short for some movies I will make. No markers and no direct sharing with iDVD killed the likelihood that I will use 08 for work. Sound editing needs fade-in and out per clip, but that will likely come. A wave editor would be great (quickly fade out and in over a sneeze, for example).

If you play around, there are some interesting things that can be done: I added BGM to three clips and then proceeded to add three different voice-overs to the same clips, on top of each other so in fact the movie had four audio tracks. Added a couple of sound effects and I had a total of seven audio clips playing simultaneously. Again, there was not much polish to it, but I don't think that is the purpose of the app.

I don't love nor hate the new iMovie 08. It is a version 1.0 and has (quite?) a bit of growing to do. iMovie HD is a great app, but it lacks some of the ease of use functions that 08 has. Personally, I believe Apple should have combined the best of both and made a killer app. This would have made everyone happy, but hurt sales of Final Cut Express.

As it is, I will use the new iMovie 08 for my personal, casual use but continue using iMovie HD for my professional needs. Hopefully, Apple will improve the new 08 and make iMovie a truly powerful movie editor.

One last thing about the app is it raises the bar a bit on Apple's other, pro apps (Keynote, Aperture, Final Cut). They will have to improve their functionality in turn, and quickly.

 

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post #122 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimzip View Post

Seriously?

Well I've been using Apple's stuff for 20 years now, and in the experiences I've had Apple's done just what I said above. I wouldn't just spew random crud onto these message boards without sufficient reason. That's why I gave some examples, to back up the theory.

I strongly believe a lot of the irks people have with iMovie will be resolved. It's the process every one of Apple's iLife apps goes through. Sure Apple may take a while, but they listen, they improve, and they do, despite what some people may think, go the extra mile in most cases. Especially with their iLife suite. This is their flagship product line, their lure for new Apple users and old ones, and I think there's huge necessity to keep it functional, simple and cutting edge.

There's no need to complain really, but if you feel there's something very wrong, a well structured note of feedback to Apple won't go by unnoticed. That's why the forms are there.

Jimzip

Jim,

There is a need to complain or they don't get the message. I've already sent in my feedback to Apple, and I actually wasn't complaining about the product on the board, I was pointing out that the practice of poking fun at MS for leaving users behind was now staring them in the face (ala iMovie 7 won't work on a G4).

This was so avoidable on their part....
post #123 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by steviet02 View Post

Jim,

There is a need to complain or they don't get the message. I've already sent in my feedback to Apple, and I actually wasn't complaining about the product on the board, I was pointing out that the practice of poking fun at MS for leaving users behind was now staring them in the face (ala iMovie 7 won't work on a G4).

This was so avoidable on their part....

The G4 chip is at least two generations behind the current technology! (More if you count the different Intel chipsets we've gone through). Whatever the merits of the rest of the arguments being argued on this board, this one at least is complete rot. Does it make any sense for Apple to cripple the ability of its new programs to make sure they still run on old hardware? If they did this, we would never get any new software.

Do you complain about getting ripped off when the newest video game comes out and it raises the bar on system requirements? Why should this be any different?

It maybe sad, or annoying, but this is a fact of life in the technology industry; better get used to it, or just stop buying new software.

(And, by the way, Vista did not and does not work on many current version computers out there. Especially the Aero, etc.)
post #124 of 279
You know, I didn't want to say anything, but, I was kinda bummed that iLife 08 doesn't work on my MacPlus.

Maybe I'll file a Class Action Suit. They never go out of date!


 

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post #125 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by meelash View Post

The G4 chip is at least two generations behind the current technology! (More if you count the different Intel chipsets we've gone through). Whatever the merits of the rest of the arguments being argued on this board, this one at least is complete rot. Does it make any sense for Apple to cripple the ability of its new programs to make sure they still run on old hardware? If they did this, we would never get any new software.

I agree that users of five plus year old iMacs really don't have much of a leg to stand on, there are Apple notebooks less than two years old with the G4 chip. I think it's an admission that Apple really was holding onto a turkey for far too long. I remember when Apple fans at the time were saying that the notebook chip was fine, even for the newest ones, but now, well, it's just ancient shit.
post #126 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

A couple of weeks ago, my wife attended a business conference where one presenter discussed the increased use of cell-phones and their impact on society. According to the speaker, many people (at least in Japan) do not buy computers, but use their cell-phones for everything, including sharing movies. Thus, the beginning user wants instant results and does not want to fiddle too much with the video; a couple of simple edits and send it off; instant gratification, in a sense. Cell-phones are increasingly powerful and soon, according to this guy, they may take over entry-level computers; many allow basic photo and movie editing as well as net surfing and some even allow document viewing and even some basic editing.

My point is that times are changing and Apple is creating iLife to fit with the times, whether or not some old-timers like us jump aboard or not (it's a business choice for them). The new iMovie does so and I think it does some things really well, but it also alienates some whose time came before. Thankfully, they left iMovie HD on our computers so that we can continue using it to make our epic films (and iDVD, too).

Well, they left it for now. Who knows if it will get any support in the future?

I think that this is what's making people upset--it makes me upset, anyway--is that, since Apple apparently needs to make a choice between developing powerful yet inexpensive creative tools and apps to generate cell-phone content, Apple seems to be going with the latter. I suppose it's perfectly understandable from a business point of view, but I think we're justified in feeling abandoned.

On the other hand, maybe we've got our anger pointed in the wrong direction. Maybe instead of being angry with Apple, we should be angry at you stupid ----s who weren't using one of the finest consumer-level creative apps ever to it's full potential, and instead were clamoring for something suitably brain-dead simple to slap your Disneyland vacation videos together.
post #127 of 279
Apple is under no obligation to hold your hand through puberty. They are a business and they want to make money. Time, culture and technology all change, sometimes very quickly. Hopefully, Apple will make good things along the way that work very well, but it is their company and they can do whatever they want. They also will not be able to make all of their customers happy all of the time. If you are not happy with the choices they make, vote with your wallet.

As for iMovie, I have used it for years in a professional setting, and have invested several hundred dollars in plug-ins and several thousand dollars in a DVD duplicator. The movies I created were incorporated in texts and classes and conferences. I have made rather complex (and long) movies as well as rather basic ones. When it comes to iMovie, I have spent my fair share of time with the app. $79 for two years is a bargain IMO, and we still have it. I never dump apps even when I update, so I always have the option of going back. If someone buys the app without trying it first, well, that's a risky proposition and any displeasure is the sole responsibility of the customer. Apple has to try new areas, and a lot of what is in iMovie 08 is great; have you given it a try? Go ahead; you might actually like it. It is not, by any means, a full-featured movie-making app like iMovie HD with plugins and all that, but market research must be telling Apple that that is not what most of the people want; sure, there are some avid movie-makers out there, but they likely are a minority.

There are some apps and peripherals that I have on my PowerMac G5 at home that have not been upgraded to Intel versions (some have been discontinued), or I haven't bothered paying for it. The "system" functions very well for what I have it set up to do (in this case make movies and record crystal clear audio). I fully expect to have that system functioning for another two years (it has been going for two) before I even consider updating everything; it was a major investment that I planned on using for a minimum of four years; two was the break-even point. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, I guess, and my home system certainly ain't broke. Can I run some of the latest apps on it? No, but I don't need to. Can I make awesome movies with awesome audio on it? You bet.

I never said that iMovie 08 is an awesome app. I have repeatedly said it is a version 1.0 and has a lot of growing to do. It has some really fantastic features that can, with a little help, lead it into being a super app. I hope Apple goes that route, but I don't know for sure. There may come a day when I have to choose another route. For now, however, I have iMovie HD and '08. Both have their respective strengths. I have sent feedback to Apple; not negative desertion messages, but constructive messages based on my experience with the apps.

BTW, I have never been to Disneyland.

 

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post #128 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

I have FCE and it's tasty. The thing that isn't tasty is running it on a 800MHz G4 iMac... and it's also not tasty for simple projects. iMovie is (was) the champ at simple movies without major effects or editing. Now it litterally is just for YouTube-type projects.-Clive

There seems to be a bottleneck problem here.

Apple finally did go back to basics with the already infamous iMovie '08. I strongly believe that iMovie '08 is gonna prove a solid foundation to attract newbies (like me) to the world of moving image. Which iMovie '06 was failing to.

The problem however is not iMovie '08, but Final Cut Express. Apple should address this problem urgently. At the moment FCE is just not cutting it, making iMovie '06 the desired application for the semi pro, as it is cheaper & doing a crisp job on whatever Mac they are using.

To summarize: iMovie '08 should be a stepping stone to FCE/iMovie '06. Maybe they should blend FCE and iMovie '06 together into a new application. Making it easy to edit simple yet professional looking projects at a reasonable cost.
post #129 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by meelash View Post

The G4 chip is at least two generations behind the current technology! (More if you count the different Intel chipsets we've gone through). Whatever the merits of the rest of the arguments being argued on this board, this one at least is complete rot. Does it make any sense for Apple to cripple the ability of its new programs to make sure they still run on old hardware? If they did this, we would never get any new software.

Like when I drop a widget onto my iBooks dashboard I don't get the ripple effect like I get on a G5 iMac, but the widget still works. So yeah, they do cripple effects and other items when the hw can't deal with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meelash View Post

Do you complain about getting ripped off when the newest video game comes out and it raises the bar on system requirements? Why should this be any different?

No, I don't complain, mainly cause i don't play games. But I'm also not buying a game pack for $100 and one of the 5 games doesn't work either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meelash View Post

It maybe sad, or annoying, but this is a fact of life in the technology industry; better get used to it, or just stop buying new software.

Understood, but there are other ways to do this than the way they chose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meelash View Post

(And, by the way, Vista did not and does not work on many current version computers out there. Especially the Aero, etc.)

You're back to my only and original point, everything that MS has been bashed by Apple and others for doing, Apple is now starting to do. Whether it's necessary, right, wrong, or indifferent this is what apple has been making marketing points on for some time.
post #130 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by britwithgoodteeth View Post

You should put stupid shit like this at the beginning of your post, so I wouldn't have to waste my time getting to it.


I went back today and just checked an aggregate of various reviews and my 'best in class' comment still seems fairly reasonable to me. iPhoto iDVD, iWeb, iMovie, and Garageband have bee reviewed extremely well and are often considered the very best consumer apps in their respective categories.

So why is that comment "stupid shit"?
post #131 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Look, I get it. You don't understand why anyone would ever have misgivings about the direction a platform is taking, as evidenced by the quality of the apps, because you're one of those horrible little Apple sycophants who thinks the appropriate relationship of customer to vendor is one of worshipful gratitude.

I've been using Macs for over 20 years, it is my platform of choice, I care about the direction Apple takes. Most of what they do I like a lot, some of it is so-so, and very occasionally they do something really inexplicable, that causes me concern for the trends within the company.

So when that happens, I will fucking well bellyache about it on a fucking mac discussion board, and I don't want to listen some patronizing asshole start holding forth about how everything is hunky dory in candy fucking colored Apple land and everybody who thinks otherwise just needs to just STFU already so you can get back to your mindless cheerleading.

OK?

I guess hurling a stream of invective takes less time than debating a particular point. I get it. I just expected a bit more on a, how did you put it? Ah, yes. "A fucking Mac discussion board".

So you have gleaned Apple's corporate direction from the update of a single app?

You should consider moving to Vegas. Or the Justice League. You clearly have super powers of some kind.

So you have been a Mac user since 1987? Your comments make a lot more sense now. You're still bent out of shape about this whole OS X thing aren't you?

If you work really hard on your reply, I'm sure you can find a few more opportunities to curse. Seriously, go for it. I think you have the gift.
post #132 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by steviet02 View Post

Like when I drop a widget onto my iBooks dashboard I don't get the ripple effect like I get on a G5 iMac, but the widget still works. So yeah, they do cripple effects and other items when the hw can't deal with it.

Yeah, stopping the ripple effect is really "crippling" the dashboard.

Quote:
No, I don't complain, mainly cause i don't play games. But I'm also not buying a game pack for $100 and one of the 5 games doesn't work either.

Before buying said game pack, a reasonable person would read the System Requirements and see that they did not match their own system. Then they would decide to buy it or not. It's the same thing as if iLife '08 was a single app or you bought a single game that your hardware couldn't handle. Would you complain that you got ripped off?


Quote:
You're back to my only and original point, everything that MS has been bashed by Apple and others for doing, Apple is now starting to do. Whether it's necessary, right, wrong, or indifferent this is what apple has been making marketing points on for some time.

No, I'm not back to your original point, because if you read what I said, I pointed out that Vista doesn't work on many CURRENT systems. Not three generation old systems. And in any event, operating systems are assumed to have much more backward compatibility than single apps. And it's expected that a cutting edge app, such as something dealing with movies or games, is going to require cutting edge hardware.

Bottom line: iMovie '08 has a sweet scrub selection of clips that would not work on older systems. What should Apple do? Not create the new iMovie? Or create the new iMovie and inform the public that you need a certain level of computing power to run the app. Obviously, the latter. Which is what they did. Wanna run iLife '08 and don't have a newer computer? Buy one. End of story.
post #133 of 279
So... iMovie '08 is a piece of shit. Less features (no chapter markers? R U kidding me?!!!)
Anyway, here's how it could possibly have come about...

A: Apple knew old iMovie was heading towards bloatware territory and had to do something fast (and I mean fast!) so they came up with this.

OR

B: Apple wants its users to pay more (ala FCE) so dumbs down a perfectly good piece of software, therefore needier (smarter) users have to upgrade.

OR

C: Apple really wanted to change the way in which users made movies, making it easier and quicker than before, unfortunately F*****g it up big style first time out.

Take your pick

Oh, I totally agree that it should have been a "quick" user select feature of a familiar iMovie package. I really don't believe that iMovie was a bad piece of software at all, though if Apple have to go down a new road with iMovie then a less expensive FCE would be a step in the right direction.

My $0.02
post #134 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMac View Post

So... iMovie '08 is a piece of shit. Less features (no chapter markers? R U kidding me?!!!)
Anyway, here's how it could possibly have come about...

A: Apple knew old iMovie was heading towards bloatware territory and had to do something fast (and I mean fast!) so they came up with this.

OR

B: Apple wants its users to pay more (ala FCE) so dumbs down a perfectly good piece of software, therefore needier (smarter) users have to upgrade.

OR

C: Apple really wanted to change the way in which users made movies, making it easier and quicker than before, unfortunately F*****g it up big style first time out.

Take your pick

Oh, I totally agree that it should have been a "quick" user select feature of a familiar iMovie package. I really don't believe that iMovie was a bad piece of software at all, though if Apple have to go down a new road with iMovie then a less expensive FCE would be a step in the right direction.

My $0.02

My overall feeling is that it was option C. I think that they made some typical Version 1.0 errors, and will get them corrected with 1.1 (Even though it is 7.0, it behaves like a 1.0).
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post #135 of 279
Amongst other possible groups there seem to be at least 3, as follows, commenting on this thread:
  1. People who accept all Apple output and decisions as boundlessly wonderful, as if to criticise Apple would be unfriendly or inherently disloyal to a great friend
  2. People who see the (evidently) missing features of iMovie '08 as the worst thing anyone can do to a friend and a betrayal and go on to sound as if they are looking to abandon Apple as a lost cause that is going inevitably in the bad ways of others and see it as almost enough evidence to swap to Windows, And
  3. People who admire Apple (probably rather a lot) and really value and appreciate what they do but recognise that they have blundered on this one. These folks also see this as entirely a loyal thing to point out, that any good friend would do for another.

Group 1 seem to put Group 2 and Group 3 into one camp and slam them all as if they are the same. Group 1 don't seem to want to listen to any attempts by Group 3 to distinguish themselves from Group 2 as reasonably commenting on this iMovie '08 issue.

Group 1 need to mature a bit and learn not be so defensive. Group 2 need to mature a lot and learn some balance and Group 3 are just great people (e.g. addabox, dylanw23, elroth et al.)
post #136 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattjumbo View Post

I guess hurling a stream of invective takes less time than debating a particular point. I get it. I just expected a bit more on a, how did you put it? Ah, yes. "A fucking Mac discussion board".

So you have gleaned Apple's corporate direction from the update of a single app?

You should consider moving to Vegas. Or the Justice League. You clearly have super powers of some kind.

So you have been a Mac user since 1987? Your comments make a lot more sense now. You're still bent out of shape about this whole OS X thing aren't you?

If you work really hard on your reply, I'm sure you can find a few more opportunities to curse. Seriously, go for it. I think you have the gift.

I would love to debate particular points, which is why you irritate me so much.

There have been a number of very thoughtful, lucid posts regarding specific questions and concerns about the behavior of the new iMovie, reasons given why "just use iMovie '06" isn't really a satisfactory answer, unease that the design of the current offering doesn't really portend much good for it in the future, and the sense that such design suggests some not entirely welcome things about the approach Apple has elected to take for its consumer apps.

Your response to all of that is basically "no, it's fine", "use iMovie '08", and "no doubt Apple will provide in the fullness of time", followed by calling anyone who disagrees names.

So if you want a debate, try not leading off by being a condescending asshole-- which, I notice, you continue to be in your follow-up post, so maybe you just don't have it in you.
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post #137 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

So when that happens, I will well bellyache about it on a mac discussion board, and I don't want to listen some patronizing asshole start holding forth about how everything is hunky dory in candy colored Apple land and everybody who thinks otherwise just needs to just STFU already so you can get back to your mindless cheerleading.

OK?

Nice language. Inappropriate. Not necessary. Distasteful. Got to turn you in.
post #138 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerdude View Post

Beautiful!!!!!

If you don't care, FINE - don't care. But, if you do care, express it loudly and make a difference.

Agree totally


I agree also. If we become complacent, so will Apple.
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post #139 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunbow View Post

Amongst other possible groups there seem to be at least 3, as follows, commenting on this thread:
  1. People who accept all Apple output and decisions as boundlessly wonderful, as if to criticise Apple would be unfriendly or inherently disloyal to a great friend
  2. People who see the (evidently) missing features of iMovie '08 as the worst thing anyone can do to a friend and a betrayal and go on to sound as if they are looking to abandon Apple as a lost cause that is going inevitably in the bad ways of others and see it as almost enough evidence to swap to Windows, And
  3. People who admire Apple (probably rather a lot) and really value and appreciate what they do but recognise that they have blundered on this one. These folks also see this as entirely a loyal thing to point out, that any good friend would do for another.

Group 1 seem to put Group 2 and Group 3 into one camp and slam them all as if they are the same. Group 1 don't seem to want to listen to any attempts by Group 3 to distinguish themselves from Group 2 as reasonably commenting on this iMovie '08 issue.

Group 1 need to mature a bit and learn not be so defensive. Group 2 need to mature a lot and learn some balance and Group 3 are just great people (e.g. addabox, dylanw23, elroth et al.)

You forgot two:
  1. People who admire Apple and really value and appreciate what they do, and are of the opinion that iMovie '08 is not a blunder at all but a remarkably plucky decision to start from scratch on a software suite that was getting away from its core purpose. Said people congratulate Apple for this risky move, are extremely excited about what they see already, and anxiously await future versions and the inevitable maturing of this new paradigm in movie-editing. Strange that you would leave out this group when it obviously include Steve Jobs himself, and the Apple employees who designed the program.
  2. People who deny the existence of Group 4 and accuse them of being members of Group 1, simply because they cannot see the direction that Apple is taking with the iMovie app, and/or said direction holds some personal detriment to their own particular use of said app. This includes yourself (obviously, since you conspicuously left out group 4 from your list) and addabox, et al. who get so angry when people point out that the new iMovie is better in the long-run no matter how much they whine about how they will actually have to pay for professional programs for professional work.

Apple humors all of these groups and especially 3 and 5, and also just does a damn nice thing that they had no obligation to do at all by any measure, by allowing iMovie '06 to be downloaded for free.
post #140 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Eggleston View Post

My overall feeling is that it was option C. I think that they made some typical Version 1.0 errors, and will get them corrected with 1.1 (Even though it is 7.0, it behaves like a 1.0).

I believe that the present "strategy" that Apple is displaying has been done before with Appleworks. Take an amazing piece of free software, discontinue support for it and at the same time force people to go with an inferior piece of software ( Iwork) that takes two or three revisions ( at $79 a pop ) to even come close to what was lost. When I bought my 24" intel imac it was the first mac product I ever bought that did not include a decent word processor/spreadsheet application. I shudder to think just how far they are going to go with this. Just sign me " extremely disappointed".
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post #141 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

I believe that the present "strategy" that Apple is displaying has been done before with Appleworks. Take an amazing piece of free software, discontinue support for it and at the same time force people to go with an inferior piece of software ( Iwork) that takes two or three revisions ( at $79 a pop ) to even come close to what was lost. When I bought my 24" intel imac it was the first mac product I ever bought that did not include a decent word processor/spreadsheet application.

I've almost never bought a computer that had included any part of an office suite, unless you count the carbonized AppleWorks. That may have been better than nothing to some people, but I tended to ignore it after playing with it for an evening.
post #142 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I've almost never bought a computer that had included any part of an office suite, unless you count the carbonized AppleWorks. That may have been better than nothing to some people, but I tended to ignore it after playing with it for an evening.

I'm guessing that you meant to say " that included , for free, any part of an office suite" unless, of course you only use your computor for a paperweight. Also, I'm sure that the hundreds of thousands of appleworks users that belong to awug's do more than play with it for an evening. However, since you have posted over 4000 times and I have only posted, let's see now, oh yeah, twice, if you count this one, I'll defer to your " experience".
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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post #143 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

I'm guessing that you meant to say " that included , for free, any part of an office suite" unless, of course you only use your computor for a paperweight. Also, I'm sure that the hundreds of thousands of appleworks users that belong to awug's do more than play with it for an evening. However, since you have posted over 4000 times and I have only posted, let's see now, oh yeah, twice, if you count this one, I'll defer to your " experience".

I have absolutely no idea what you are getting at unless you are just trying to level an ad homenem attack towards me.

I almost always had to buy the software that I needed separately. I didn't think that was taboo idea. I don't play dependent on the hardware maker to bundle all the software that I need. iWork and AppleWorks aren't the only programs available to do the job that they do.
post #144 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I have absolutely no idea what you are getting at unless you are just trying to level an ad homenem attack towards me.

I always had to buy the software that I needed, separately. I didn't think that was taboo idea. I don't play dependent on the hardware maker to bundle all the software that I need. iWork and AppleWorks aren't the only programs available to do the job that they do.

I did not mean for this post to indicate a personal attack at you. All I'm saying is that since the " beginning of time" Apple's reputation has been built on delivering great hardware which included great software . The inclusion of that software usually justified a higher price point. The present trend of " dumbing down " the free software so as to push us into paying for better Quality software goes against everything that Apple used to stand for. We used to stand apart from the herd, proudly, now it seems like we are heading towards just beeing part of the herd. Whatever happened to "1984" You can still sign " extremely Disappointed".
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
post #145 of 279
Was AppleWorks always included with a new Mac? I really don't know, I have only been a Mac user for maybe four years.
post #146 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Was AppleWorks always included with a new Mac? I really don't know, I have only been a Mac user for maybe four years.

I don't know how far back it goes but my first mac purchase was a purple, if you can believe it, imac (6 gig h.d.) and I think that was about maybe 10 years or so ago and Appleworks was always included, free, much like I-life is now. That practice seems to have been stopped with the introduction of intel chips. I would hate to think that Apple has forgotten what made it special in the first place ... but who knows ... Apple has made dumb moves before ... thank God not many. We'll see.
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
post #147 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by meelash View Post

You forgot two:
  1. People who admire Apple and really value and appreciate what they do, and are of the opinion that iMovie '08 is not a blunder at all but a remarkably plucky decision to start from scratch on a software suite that was getting away from its core purpose. Said people congratulate Apple for this risky move, are extremely excited about what they see already, and anxiously await future versions and the inevitable maturing of this new paradigm in movie-editing. Strange that you would leave out this group when it obviously include Steve Jobs himself, and the Apple employees who designed the program.
  2. People who deny the existence of Group 4 and accuse them of being members of Group 1, simply because they cannot see the direction that Apple is taking with the iMovie app, and/or said direction holds some personal detriment to their own particular use of said app. This includes yourself (obviously, since you conspicuously left out group 4 from your list) and addabox, et al. who get so angry when people point out that the new iMovie is better in the long-run no matter how much they whine about how they will actually have to pay for professional programs for professional work.

Apple humors all of these groups and especially 3 and 5, and also just does a damn nice thing that they had no obligation to do at all by any measure, by allowing iMovie '06 to be downloaded for free.

You can download Appleworks for free also .... too bad it doesn't work on any of the newer mac machines.
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
post #148 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

I believe that the present "strategy" that Apple is displaying has been done before with Appleworks. Take an amazing piece of free software, discontinue support for it and at the same time force people to go with an inferior piece of software ( Iwork) that takes two or three revisions ( at $79 a pop ) to even come close to what was lost. When I bought my 24" intel imac it was the first mac product I ever bought that did not include a decent word processor/spreadsheet application. I shudder to think just how far they are going to go with this. Just sign me " extremely disappointed".

An interesting observation. However, the major difference is that Apple well-managed the expectations of the Customers by renaming the new product (thus avoiding too-much in the way of assumed features) and by showing clearly what it did do well.

The iMovie '08 issue (while having the similarity you refer to) arose due to the clearly allowed impression (by keeping the app name the same) that it built on what had gone before but included a major innovation in editing as well.
post #149 of 279
In case people need a reminder: There is no way to get an iMovie made in iMovie 08 into iDVD. Now that's ridiculous, is it not? Why have iDVD be part of iLife if you can't make a DVD from the iLife movie program?

I was just at an Apple store playing with iMovie 08, and there is little control. In normal mode, you get clips and that's it - string them together and you're done. Choose 2 second clips, or 3 second clips, and there you have it. Put a pre-made title on (insert your own words). Choose a song, and the program automatically adds the song at a set volume. Upload to YouTube.

There is also an advanced mode: this allows you to take that 2 second clip and extend it forward or backward by a set amount (the amount is set in the preferences - between 1/2 second and a few seconds). Want to start it exactly where you want? Good luck and good night.

I personally don't like the new interface - I find iMovie 06 very intuitive (it works like audiotape, or videotape - forward and back, stop at a specific point, move frame-by-frame (like a DVD player can do), cut where you want, etc.) The new interface is more like you reach into a clip and grab sections (approximately where you want), and glom them together. Scrubbing is interesting, but every time you move the cursor it starts scrubbing something - it's distracting.

iMovie 08 is just not worthy of being called iMovie - that's where a lot of the complaining comes from. Leave iMovie 06 part of iLife (and update it for Leopard). Add the new program - call it Easy Movie Maker or something. Then everyone's happy.

(I also looked at Final Cut Express - I spent a few minutes trying to figure out how to edit clips, and gave up. Definitely a steeper learning curve (I didn't have time to read the help files)).
post #150 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

I believe that the present "strategy" that Apple is displaying has been done before with Appleworks. Take an amazing piece of free software, discontinue support for it and at the same time force people to go with an inferior piece of software ( Iwork) that takes two or three revisions ( at $79 a pop ) to even come close to what was lost. When I bought my 24" intel imac it was the first mac product I ever bought that did not include a decent word processor/spreadsheet application. I shudder to think just how far they are going to go with this. Just sign me " extremely disappointed".

Have you actually used iWork? I have used both extensively, trying not to use Office whenever possible. iWork is a hugely superior programme than AppleWorks. I wouldn't have dreamt of using AppleWorks for my dissertation, but iWork managed it without a hitch.

I will admit that having a spreadsheet from the offset would have been a good idea, and a simple drawing programme might help, although Pages can be used for that sort of thing. But I use Filemaker for databasing, so now the new iWork doesn't have any missing features of importance, or that I can't work around. And if I had a burning desire to use AppleWorks (which I never had since moving to OS X 10.0.3), I still can because it's on my install disks.

There seem to be a lot of people here that don't understand that if you don't like something, buy something you do like, and stop whinging at what you don't like. It's a very pessimistic attitude to have.
post #151 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by meelash View Post

You forgot two:
  1. People who admire Apple and really value and appreciate what they do, and are of the opinion that iMovie '08 is not a blunder at all but a remarkably plucky decision to start from scratch on a software suite that was getting away from its core purpose. Said people congratulate Apple for this risky move, are extremely excited about what they see already, and anxiously await future versions and the inevitable maturing of this new paradigm in movie-editing. Strange that you would leave out this group when it obviously include Steve Jobs himself, and the Apple employees who designed the program.
  2. People who deny the existence of Group 4 and accuse them of being members of Group 1, simply because they cannot see the direction that Apple is taking with the iMovie app, and/or said direction holds some personal detriment to their own particular use of said app. This includes yourself (obviously, since you conspicuously left out group 4 from your list) and addabox, et al. who get so angry when people point out that the new iMovie is better in the long-run no matter how much they whine about how they will actually have to pay for professional programs for professional work.

Apple humors all of these groups and especially 3 and 5, and also just does a damn nice thing that they had no obligation to do at all by any measure, by allowing iMovie '06 to be downloaded for free.


Oh, I forgot to say, Group 1 normally tries to explain away their defensiveness by inventing extra but unnecessary and inappropriate Groups that are either the same as Group 1 or support Group 1 behaviour.

And Group 1 also (incorrectly) tries to suggest that:

Group 3 don't appreciate Apple's tremendous inventiveness in developing paradigm-shifting software (e.g. in video editing), or that

Group 3 reject all of something just because they don't like part of it, as a way of suggesting that Group 1 (aka 4) are the only true ones that count as friends of Apple (classic Group 1).
post #152 of 279
Some people will never be happy and wish to waste all of their energy complaining about other people's actions over which they have no control. Read Covey's "7 Habits".

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #153 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

You can download Appleworks for free also .... too bad it doesn't work on any of the newer mac machines.

Which machines? I haven't tried it all, but the writer and spreadsheet parts work on my Mac Pro.
post #154 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Eggleston View Post

My overall feeling is that it was option C. I think that they made some typical Version 1.0 errors, and will get them corrected with 1.1 (Even though it is 7.0, it behaves like a 1.0).

That does sound quite plausable, though one would think that the Apple software development team working on iMove would surely have the resources, knowledge and plain common sense to engineer version 7 to include previously used (and loved) features of version 6. Things like chapter markers and (blindingly obvious) useful stuff like effects, transitions and full integration with iDVD should not have been cast aside for a "new" iMovie release. Seriously, has Apple cut their software department's wages? Is this their reply?

If it's not there then it's not iMovie. Call it something else and concentrate on getting the pro-sumer users back on board with a better version of 6. Quite a lot of Mac users don't want 'dumb' versions of anything. This is not the way to go.
post #155 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMac View Post

That does sound quite plausable, though one would think that the Apple software development team working on iMove would surely have the resources, knowledge and plain common sense to engineer version 7 to include previously used (and loved) features of version 6. Things like chapter markers and (blindingly obvious) useful stuff like effects, transitions and full integration with iDVD should not have been cast aside for a "new" iMovie release. Seriously, has Apple cut their software department's wages? Is this their reply?

If it's not there then it's not iMovie. Call it something else and concentrate on getting the pro-sumer users back on board with a better version of 6. Quite a lot of Mac users don't want 'dumb' versions of anything. This is not the way to go.

Absolutely.
post #156 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunbow View Post

An interesting observation. However, the major difference is that Apple well-managed the expectations of the Customers by renaming the new product (thus avoiding too-much in the way of assumed features) and by showing clearly what it did do well.

The iMovie '08 issue (while having the similarity you refer to) arose due to the clearly allowed impression (by keeping the app name the same) that it built on what had gone before but included a major innovation in editing as well.

Point #1 In your first sentence you say " Apple well- managed the expectations of the Customers by renaming the new product " In your second sentenced you say The iMovie '08 issue (while having the similarity you refer to) arose due to the clearly allowed impression (by keeping the app name the same) ... so ... my question to you is. Which is it ? New name or not ?

Point #2 Just because a crappy, by most accounts, piece of software " renames the new product (thus avoiding too-much in the way of assumed features) and by showing clearly what it did do well, that does not make it a better piece of software.

Point #3 Perhaps I was too subtle for you in my original post. Let me try again.IMO the downward quality support trend of Apple's free included software, first Appleworks and now Imovie suggests to me that a dangerous mindset is starting to rear its ugly head over at Apple Inc. I hope that I am wrong but I fear that the arrogant attitude of a few years ago may be repeated with the same disasterous results. Please do not let that happen by not listening to all voices.
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
post #157 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by hdasmith View Post

Have you actually used iWork? I have used both extensively, trying not to use Office whenever possible. iWork is a hugely superior programme than AppleWorks. I wouldn't have dreamt of using AppleWorks for my dissertation, but iWork managed it without a hitch.

I will admit that having a spreadsheet from the offset would have been a good idea, and a simple drawing programme might help, although Pages can be used for that sort of thing. But I use Filemaker for databasing, so now the new iWork doesn't have any missing features of importance, or that I can't work around. And if I had a burning desire to use AppleWorks (which I never had since moving to OS X 10.0.3), I still can because it's on my install disks.

There seem to be a lot of people here that don't understand that if you don't like something, buy something you do like, and stop whinging at what you don't like. It's a very pessimistic attitude to have.

First of all, if you are happy having to use several different paid applications ( Iwork, Filemaker, etc. ) to do the work of one ( free ) Appleworks application ... go for it.
Secondly, if your imac is using intel chips it doesn't support Appleworks no matter where you have it.
And lastly, a pessimistic attitude doesn't translate into a wrong attitude, just the same as a blissfully optimistic attitude is not necessarily a correct one. However, change ONLY occurs when enough people are PESSIMISTIC enough to point out obvious shortcomings. A prime example of that is Apple's decision to make a free download of Imovie HD after a whole bunch of pessimistic people voiced their opinions.
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
post #158 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Which machines? I haven't tried it all, but the writer and spreadsheet parts work on my Mac Pro.

To the best of my knowledge intel Imacs do not support Appleworks.
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
post #159 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMac View Post

That does sound quite plausable, though one would think that the Apple software development team working on iMove would surely have the resources, knowledge and plain common sense to engineer version 7 to include previously used (and loved) features of version 6. Things like chapter markers and (blindingly obvious) useful stuff like effects, transitions and full integration with iDVD should not have been cast aside for a "new" iMovie release. Seriously, has Apple cut their software department's wages? Is this their reply?

If it's not there then it's not iMovie. Call it something else and concentrate on getting the pro-sumer users back on board with a better version of 6. Quite a lot of Mac users don't want 'dumb' versions of anything. This is not the way to go.

I'm not sure of the wages that are being paid but according to Steve Jobs in his presentation the reason for Imovie8 was because one engineer couldn't figure out how to make a vacation movie in under 15 minutes using Imovie HD or FCP. ...If that's their new research dept.... I think wer'e in trouble ...
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
post #160 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

I'm not sure of the wages that are being paid but according to Steve Jobs in his presentation the reason for Imovie8 was because one engineer couldn't figure out how to make a vacation movie in under 15 minutes using Imovie HD or PCP. ...If that's their new research dept.... I think wer'e in trouble ...

Sorry, my last post should read Imovie HD or FCP
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
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