Apple stirs controversy with iMovie's '08 overhaul - Page 5

AppleWorks was not included on my 12" G4 PB or my brother's 17" PB. It was not available for free download either, I believe I actually bought it for about the same as iWorks now costs. Maybe 69.99. And my old IIci didn't come with any word processing package included either.

And, I can double check this, but I'm pretty sure there's nothing to stop AppleWorks from running fine on an Intel machine.

Apologies, I should have been a little clearer: the 'well-managed expectations' was referring to the name change that Pages had over AppleWorks; the 'not-well-managed expectations' was with iMovie '08 as the name is 'the same' as its predecessor (ie. merely moved on in version number).

Overall, I am suggesting that while Apple has made a mistake over this iMovie '08 issue, we should not see it out of proportion and that it is some sort of sign of arrogance that pervades everything they are now doing/about to do. Moreover, these forums are hopefully seen by Apple folks and if so, they provide some 'calibration' of thinking that will (I hope) be useful in influencing Apple's future decisions. If they fix the iMovie '08 issue in a timely way, problem solved, no big deal.

I attended the WWDC in June there. There are loads of new programming things coming in Leopard that will allow software to run dramatically better on multi-core systems. I would assume that in order to benefit from these many apps need major overhauls. It's likely Apple needs to showcase the capabilities by proving them with its own software. It's likely that iMovie needed a major overhaul and engineering simply ran out of time to finish the product. They've had one hell of a year this year. I don't think anyone can deny how hard they've worked.

With any luck we will see the full feature set restored over the next 6-12 months BUT with all the new multi-core enhancements. Good things come to those who wait!

Few of us could figure out how to make a movie in under 15 minutes when iMovie was first released, though as with most new things, a bit of practice and patience brings reward. We all taught ourselves to use the application and it had grown into a highly useful and intuitive piece of software. Now it looks like we are slipping backwards. Damn, I thought I would never say this, but Movie Maker is looking a little sweeter day by day \

Apple of late seem to be losing their sense of direction with a few things, this being one of them. We may just be in trouble though it's never too late Steve...

My brother just tried to make a movie in iMovie '06 and was very frustrated. He is a new mac user and has never done video. He cranked out a nice movie in a few minutes with '08.

I think Apple has done a good job with a complete overhaul and iMovie people should probably move to FCE. I am not being harsh, just factual based on Apple's recent move and the experiences of my brother and family with iMovie.

One of the things I most like doing with iMovie is making short videos for the songs I do in GarageBand. To do this, I end up doing a lot of editing to get clips to sync with the music, as well as a lot of video effects (which are just fine when used in the right context and not over done). For this, I always use the timeline view. I also end up trimming clips a lot, something I still haven't figured out in iMovie 08. This is just for my own use. I'm not doing it professionally. If iMovie HD stops working, I can't justify dropping $300.00 on a piece of software for this. I'll just stop doing it, and I would find that very disappointing.

Thanks for the clarification re: name change. You're right, " If they fix the iMovie '08 issue in a timely way, problem solved, no big deal." The thing is, I'm 65 years old and I guess that I get a little paranoid when I see " history repeat itself " How they handled Appleworks v.s. Pages is very similar to what SEEMS to be going on with Imovie HD and Final Cut Pro / Express, that is, forcing us to move over to a paid for application instead of a free one by "dumbing down the free one. "
I suppose there is nothing wrong with that business model except that it's getting very close to what microsoft has done for years. I liked it better when microsoft copied us instead of us copying them, that's all.

I suppose you're right but it seems to me that it would take MORE time to write a completly new app than to simply improve an existing one. In any case, why would they not just include Imovie8 as an additional app, call it " Imovie for Dummies" or something. The fact that they chose to eliminate Imovie HD completely, I think, speaks volumes for their intentions. Perhaps I'm just being overly paranoid but you know what they say, " Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there is no one following you."

Yeah I get what you're saying. But you did get all the applications..



Did you even read what I wrote? I said the program will be optimized, not that it's replacing a program that could already do more. Read before you write please.


I agree with you, but what I meant was that complaining on this board to each other won't get anyone anywhere. Apple takes feedback really seriously, so people that are complaining to User_x here on AppleInsider are directing their energy the wrong way.
That's all!

Jimzip

You are disgusting.

See what I did there? I made a comment about you that has no basis, because I don't know you. Think that's unfair? Yeah it is, and you just did the same thing to that guy that commented above.

Personally I think you're getting way to heated over this. Once you start swearing & the conversation deteriorates to high-school level, it's time to leave your computer for some fresh air. Hop outside, take a walk and calm down, because you aren't getting anywhere by calling someone a 'patronizing asshole'. No matter how much you don't like his comment, there's no need to do that.

Also, you don't want to take his opinion, fine. Fair enough, but don't start patronizing him right back, you're just being hypocritical.

Finally, don't flame me for writing this, I'm merely pointing out that this is, as you mentioned, a discussion board, it's not a battlefield. We're all here because we are Mac users, not because we want to damage someone mentally for life. I'll listen to your comments just like I'll listen to his, I'm interested in hearing different views. But I will enter the discussion to point out what I think is wrong. I'm no mod, but I hate seeing hate. Mmmmkay?
So if you don't like something, make your comment known, but let's not start attacking each other here, there's enough of that happening already in Iraq.

Jimzip

Sorry.. Double post.

I'm sorry for you're brother's frustration with Imovie '06. I had the same level of frustration when I made my first, and so far only, movie with imovie '06. However, because I've experienced that same level of frustration many times learning any new app. I stuck with it and wound up with a movie that so exceeded my expectations that the first thing everybody says when they see it is : "What software are you using" ? ...... I even have a windows user friend that was so impressed because the paid for software she uses can't " do that. " ....... When I told her the software came free with all mac computers she was blown away. She is going to buy a mac in October When Leopard becomes available.
You make my point when you say ... " iMovie people should probably move to FCE." I may be wrong but I don't think that if my FIRST movie making experience was with Imovie '08, I would EVER consider moving over to FCP/FCPE because they are soooo different. .....Im just not convinced this is a smart move for Apple, sorry.

I used iMovie 6 for a long time and loved the cool video effects features. With iMovie '08, all of those features are gone and it's a lot more difficult to edit and fine-tune audio and video. However, it is much easier to make a 5-minute movie in a few minutes. iMovie '08 seems to be the dumbed-down version of iMovie. Good thing I still have iMovie 6 on my mac.

Sorry if you don't like my tone, that's between you and your sensibilities.

If you look back over the thread, you'll notice a dynamic: a lot of people sort of horrified by the new iMovie, talking about the features that have gone missing and what it means for their particular situation, and speculating as to what this "means", in terms of where Apple is going with its consumer apps. And, of course, it's not just here: Mac forums the web over, including Apple's own discussion site, more or less exploded with exactly this kind of talk as soon as they got a look at it.

Now, notice that most of this doesn't involve any particular characterization of the people who think iMovie '08 is the bomb. I and others have talked about feeling that it is "dumbed down", but that's an observation about the software, not its defenders.

But for the most part, the tone is generally "I think it's fine if it works for you, but here's why it doesn't work for me."

And the response? Shut up. Stop whining. You haven't even used it, you don't know what you're talking about. You people are babies. You people are greedy adolescents. What's the problem with sticking with iMovie '06, again? It's right there in your folder, stupid. God all mighty, you whiny titty ass babies will never be satisfied, no matter what Apple does. Don't buy it then. Get FCE and stop trying to use iMovie for what it is no longer for. Of course Apple will fix it pretty soon, you impatient, demanding twit.

All of it served up with a pretty aggressive tone of attack, on the character of anyone who would express dismay.

Right? Pretty undeniable, really.

So at some point, when someone wants to get really explicit on the subject of why explaining how the new iMovie doesn't work for a given user is, in fact, a character flaw, then yes, I will unload, and I don't really care about the tender sensibilities of all those folks who had no problem snorting derisively at the (obviously delusional, self involved, petty, adolescent) folks who expressed an opinion about a piece of Apple software on an Apple discussion board.

If I get too emphatic, the mods will let me know. Perhaps I've earned a bit of leeway by being a member of these boards for quite a while. If I kept on in that tone, I'd for sure hear about it, but either way, it's my choice how loud to yell, when I think a pervasive tone has gone on long enough.

Addabox, you have reached maximum velocity!

Thank you so much for saying that! When I watched the video after thinking "cool new app," my next thought wash who wants that fugly icon on their desktop?

You can change the icon if you wish.

What are you saying? That since you had to take a long time to learn to make movies, it's not fair that someone else should be able to just jump in and start in 15 minutes?

Goddamn people have it so easy these days! They should make people program in assembly language like we had to do in the good old days. It's much more efficient and powerful anyways!

Typical Group 5



All I can say is, thank God Apple doesn't listen to all of these complainers who can't stand anything changing. Don't you realize that's exactly what's wrong with Microsoft? Every time they try to make a big change in their software they have about 9 jillion people bellyaching about how they have to relearn this and that and change their workflows, etc. And MS listens to them, and as a result has these monstrous legacy coded apps, and are afraid to ever do anything revolutionary.

Apple fortunately, when they see that it's time to scratch out and start afresh, they've shown again and again, they're willing to do it. And in spite of all of the "Apple teh screwed us over" "WTF Apple !!11!!" comments on these boards, they keep showing that it is better in the long run to ignore such short-sighted people (well, maybe not completely ignore them, we'll let them download iMovie '06, maybe it'll shut some of up).

Sometimes it hurts to make major corrections late in the game. However, it's got to be done, and the longer it's put off, the harder it is. That's why I don't envy any MS executive or software developer their position.

Sigh.

I'm trying to figure out how anyone that isn't just actually going out of their way to be a dick can read this thread and decide that the people who don't like the new iMovie don't like it because "they can't stand anything changing".

Maybe you just missed all the posts from people who, despite their very specific concerns about very specific loss of functionality, welcomed and applauded a lot of the new features? You know, the ones that went something like "I think it would have been great if they had made the new iMovie just as they did, but not taken out so many tools. Maybe an 'advanced' tab, or something"?

In fact, pretty much the only people being specific in this thread are the people with complaints. Some of the "stop your bellyaching" posts (like, well, yours) are so pro forma and generic, they seem to be little more than a reflexive response. "Someone-complaining-about-Apple-must-belittle-them-for-whining.......beep."

So it's nice and all to talk about clean slate thinking and taking risks and being willing to alienate the (embittered and hidebound, apparently) few for the glorious new future, but it's really not clear at all what that has to do with, say, making it so you can't adjust the volume of a clip within the clip.

Maybe you could explain which crusty old assumptions were being tossed aside here, and how such tossing clears the deck for the new hotness?

Which confirms my theory that one of the downsides of growing market share by attracting former PC users is that it drops the IQ in the room by about 20 points.

I couldn't agree more. Only thing is, as I see it, the real problem is when you start worrying about market share you become like a politician who is more concerned about getting re-elected then he is about doing the right thing. I only hope that Apple doesn't " forget " what made it such a special company in the first place. Steve Jobs recently said all the right words when he said that Apple cannot ship crap, however, Imovie 8 would seem to be saying " actions speak louder than words".

We don't "just assume a product is going to be good" because we're elite, we assume a product is going to be good because the past performance of Apple in producing top quality apps has trained us to expect that always, and when, as in the case of Imovie 8, they fall short, we voice our displeasure ........ we just haven't had as much practise as the windows crowd because Apple, thankfully, doesn't disappoint us as often ... Sorry, we'll try harder.

I don't care about platform contention, I was responding the sort of pointlessly antagonistic tone of your post. Which you've pulled off again.

Who are you even arguing with?

Well I think iMovie 08 its an ok app for a completly novice user and also for making a short movie in a short time. Also the ability to change exposure, brightness/contrast and saturation in real time is wonderful
But I miss the themes and lack off effects
And why have they made it such a pain to export to iDvd?? I bought my new MacBook 6 months ago with dvd burner just because I want to make dvds and send to friends


Maybe it will become the new Coke war:

Apple introduces a brand new iMovie which replaces the old. Users are in uproar and start groups to bring back the old iMovie. More and more people call and send mail to Apple with complaint. The press take side in the war and Apple will be in a uncomfterble situation.
Next time Apple updates iLife they have a completely new app called iMovie Classic and everybody will be happy

Agreed about the color controls. Apple is really getting something going here with the HUD idea across programs. Also, the real time stuff is great.

On the other hand, apparently David Pogue is a whiny titty ass baby.

That David Pogue. All he ever does is bitch and moan.

To what? That Apple users are clowns? Nope, you've stumped me there.

Let me make my point as simply as I can because I want you to " get it " Gaining market share is a good thing ....as long as you don't lower your standards to do it. And the fact that Mac sales are one of the few computors to show increasing marketshare proves that it can be done. ..... But this latest Imovie 8 release appears to be targeted to the lowest common denominator and I, and others, feel this is a giant mistake on the part of Apple.

Which was simply a response to all the "sheep" stuff, which got old a long time ago.

So: I'll agree that I don't actually think PC users are stupid (although I do think they've picked up some bad habits), maybe you can lay off the "too deep in the Koolaide to know when they're getting reamed" stuff?

And then bunnies will come out!

Point #1 Do you REALLY want to compare the amount of patches that tiger has against windows ?
Point #2 As far as Leopard's release, well let's just say that Vista's 5 year record is safe for quite awhile.
Point #3 Maybe the reason that people aren't talking as much about Iphone is they're too busy buying it.
Last Point, I think the fact that we are mac users PROVE that we do , indeed, use our brains, other wise we would just shuffle along with the crowd with you. It's not too late you know, you can still be saved .... come on over.

I wonder... could it all be just too much for Apple? Is Steve growing up too fast, seeing too many cashcows and letting quality and timely delivery slip? A while back I read that they had to reassign a lot of resources to deliver the wonderchild in time... perhaps now we are just starting to see the effects of that move... Hold on for the future... take-away hardware and software for stupid people

I hear you .... isn't it interesting to note that Steve said that people don't want to make dvd's anymore and proceeded to introduce apps that make it more difficult to create a movie, not have chapter markers and burn it from the same app. ...... hmm

The Problem with that, is the expense of the upgrade. Even with the student discount, it's still $150.00 that I don't have to spare for something I don't do that often anymore. I started with iMovie 1.0 running on OS 9. While I agree with some here who have said that it has gotten a bit bloated, I really like having most of the functionality. On the other hand, my mom would really like to be able to do some simple video stuff on her iMac so for her, 08 might fit the bill.
I think my point after all this rambling, is that perhaps what apple should have done is either called this iMovie LE and let people that as with any new product, it will need some time to mature. They also should have made it so that people could switch back and forth between this and iMovie HD.
My 2 cents.

From David Pogue's article in the NY Times. Apple has started iMovie all over again and views this as version 1. They will add functionality in free updates.

You can use both HD and 08 (I have the icons side by side in my dock); I did at work today: created a full-length DVD (4.5 GB) with tons of effects and markers in HD, and put together a quick movie in '08 and sent it to my coworkers far quicker than I could have in HD and I am quite adept at using HD. To be very honest, I even included a short clip made in '08 in my HD movie because it was easier to create in '08 and export it and then import it rather than make in HD.

There are places for both apps, and, as we have both and people had the ability to know what they were purchasing before they paid for it, there is no reason to complain. To offer feedback, yes. If they didn't like what they saw, they could easily have voted with their wallets.

iDVD has a few very nice enhancements to it that I would gladly have paid 50 bucks for because a couple will save me an hour or two each month and another will make my DVDs look better. iMovie 08 saves a lot of time throwing simple movies together (something I do daily), worth another 50 bucks in my view because it will save me several hours a month. Instead of spending 30 minutes on my short film today, I finished it and shared it in 15, half the time, adding to a savings of about 8 hours a month - ONE DAY OF WORK - which I will now be able to spend on other activities. $79 bucks to save me 10 hours of work each month... let's see... that comes out to under 7 bucks a month, or 70 cents an hour, and I haven't even thought about my personal usage yet. That is less than a cup of coffee. Gotta go to Starbucks!

They DID. That's the whole point.

And just for the record, I think David Pogue's article is pretty much spot-on to the real situation, internal to Apple and out here on the fora.

The real test for Apple, I think, is how quickly this new iMovie develops into something that can match or beat HD in capability as well as ease of use. And, since I don't think HD is going anywhere in the meantime, as long as it does not stop working/ become obsolete (a la AppleWorks) before the new app is up to scratch, there is really absolutely nothing to complain about.

You mean the article titled "Apple takes a step backward with iMovie '08"?

I can't believe people are citing the Pogue article to show that all is well. It's pretty negative, except for the obligatory "no doubt they'll fix it in time" tossed off line. It's a laundry list of startling shortcomings, and he suggests that there must be "embarrassment" at Apple for sending out such hobbled bit of software.

So you just read headlines now? Not the full article. Pogue takes a very balanced view of the problem IMO, maybe you should take a page from his book.

I cited the article and linked to it before you did. I think there's a reason you didn't actually supply a link.