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Apple stirs controversy with iMovie's '08 overhaul - Page 6

post #201 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by meelash View Post

So you just read headlines now? Not the full article. Pogue takes a very balanced view of the problem IMO, maybe you should take a page from his book.

"Pogue takes a very balanced view of the problem IMO,"....... What planet are you from? ..In his article I counted 11 negative comments before he found 4 positives ..... some further quotes are as follows:
"The new iMovie, for example, is probably the only video-editing program on the market with no timelineno horizontal, scrolling strip that displays your clips laid end to end, with their lengths representing their durations. You have no indication of how many minutes into your movie you are."
"The new iMovie gets a D for audio editing."
"The new iMovie doesn't accept plug-ins, either. For years, I've relied on GeeThree.com's iMovie plug-ins to achieve effects like picture-in-picture, bluescreen and subtitles. That's all over now"
"Incredibly, the new iMovie can't even convert older iMovie projects. All you can import is the clips themselves. None of your transitions, titles, credits, music, or special effects are preserved."
"On top of all that, this more limited iMovie has steep horsepower requirements that rule out most computers older than about two years old."
"I've used the real iMovie to edit my Times videos for three years now. The results are perfectly convincing as professional video blog work. But the new version is totally unusable for that purpose. It's unusable, in fact, for anyone doing professional work that requires any degree of precision."
Meelash, your post would seem to indicate Pogue was "balanced" ( neutral ) on the value of Imovie 8. How you EVER arrived at that conclussion escapes me. Seems to me he is saying what a lot of us are saying. Imovie 8 sucks ...... big time ........
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post #202 of 279
I agree that Pogue's comments were almost all harsh criticism of iMovie 08. It's quite clear he doesn't care much for the program.

He did make one comment that I found telling and probably explains why Apple have simplified iMovie 08:
"I've used the real iMovie to edit my Times videos for three years now. The results are perfectly convincing as professional video blog work."

I'm not sure Apple want users to be doing this level of work at this level of quality in a $79 suite of programs. I think they'd prefer these users do that work in FCE or FCP.

In the end iMovie may have been just too good. If they made it any better I think that they feared that it would cannibalize sales of the pro video editing apps.

I still think some of iMovie 06's functionality will be brought into iMovie 08 but not all.
post #203 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

Meelash, your post would seem to indicate Pogue was "balanced" ( neutral ) on the value of Imovie 8. How you EVER arrived at that conclussion escapes me. Seems to me he is saying what a lot of us are saying. Imovie 8 sucks ...... big time ........

I don't necessarily think iMovie 08 "sucks." It certainly seems to have some enthusiastic fans, and I haven't used it enough to tell how well it does whatever it's supposed to do. My basic problem with the app is with the manner of its introduction. In spite of the fact that iMovie 6 is still with us for the moment, it is clear that Apple means for iMovie 08 to replace the older, more feature-rich app.

If Apple had given iMovie the same treatment it gave iDVD--bug fixes, a few minor tweaks and enhancements--and then added the new app under a different name, like iVideo or iTube or something, I really don't think people would be nearly as concerned. As it is, though, the sense is that Apple has made a drastic change from its previous practice of providing simple yet powerful apps for the masses. A lot of us are worried that Apple has decided that consumer level apps should be extremely simple but not very powerful at all, and the sooner they can get us to either settle on their prettier but less functional apps or drop $300 on their pro apps, the better.

Also, it isn't just the fact of iMovie 08 replacing iMovie 6, but also the tone of Steve Jobs's introduction of iMovie and the whole iLife 08 suite. The overall emphasis of the presentation was geared toward the novice user with little or no knowledge of or use for advanced features. The new Garageband 08 has several new features that make it a remarkably powerful music production application–-especially for the price–-and yet the only new feature that Steve demonstrated was the Magic Garageband thing, which I can't imagine any musician using more than once or twice, but which seems tailor made to allow people who can't play music to generate a soundtrack for videos they don't know how to edit.

I'm not saying that people who can't edit movies shouldn't be making videos, or that people who can't perform music shouldn't be able to create music for their projects, but I worry that, in the future, Apple will go all in that direction and none in the other.

I don't believe this makes me a whiner.
post #204 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

Point #1 Do you REALLY want to compare the amount of patches that tiger has against windows ?

What version? How do you count? Apple's security updates generally update a lot of unrelated bugs in one update, Windows security updates generally update one bug at a time. The Windows update would show up as five updates when Apple's one update might fix as many as five different problems. It would be too easy to spin that as fewer updates when it's really not.

Quote:
Point #2 As far as Leopard's release, well let's just say that Vista's 5 year record is safe for quite awhile.

Definitely, though Apple floundered quite a bit in their attempts to replace their OS, eventually having to buy someone else's OS and adding their own sauce.

Quote:
Point #3 Maybe the reason that people aren't talking as much about Iphone is they're too busy buying it.

We really don't know that.
post #205 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

Meelash, your post would seem to indicate Pogue was "balanced" ( neutral ) on the value of Imovie 8. How you EVER arrived at that conclussion escapes me. Seems to me he is saying what a lot of us are saying. Imovie 8 sucks ...... big time ........

I think what Meelash meant was that the article was relatively unbiased, not that iMovie had balanced on its pros and cons. An unbiased article doesn't mean listing off the same number and relative significance of the pros and cons.
post #206 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

From David Pogue's article in the NY Times. Apple has started iMovie all over again and views this as version 1. They will add functionality in free updates.

The article didn't say that they'll definitely add functionality with free updates, that was the speculation part of the article. I don't remember Apple adding many features after the fact with free software updates in iLife. Feature additions are almost always held over for the next paid version.
post #207 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I think what Meelash meant was that the article was relatively unbiased, not that iMovie had balanced on its pros and cons. An unbiased article doesn't mean listing off the same number and relative significance of the pros and cons.

Point taken,..... perhaps what I should have said is that David Pogue, myself, and a whole lot of other people on these discussion boards SEEM to agree that Imovie 8 is a major disappointment.
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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post #208 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

From David Pogue's article in the NY Times. Apple has started iMovie all over again and views this as version 1. They will add functionality in free updates.

This post is a classic example of quoting "out of context" as it would seem to indicate that Pogue is in favor of Imovie 8 when, in fact, he , according to the FULL article, is not. Is there an agenda here that I don't get? .....just asking
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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post #209 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by meelash View Post

What are you saying? That since you had to take a long time to learn to make movies, it's not fair that someone else should be able to just jump in and start in 15 minutes?

Goddamn people have it so easy these days! They should make people program in assembly language like we had to do in the good old days. It's much more efficient and powerful anyways!

Man, take a few deep breaths already!

It didn't take me a "long time" to learn to make movies, it took some patience, trial and error to perfect the art of making iMovies. The initial learning curve with iMovie <6 is a little steep though anyone with half a brain can produce something decent within an hour or so.

Is it not too much to expect of any Mac newbie to sit down and take the time to learn something? Hell, as a Mac user one would expect that the discerning iMac/MacBook buyer would have a little intelligence... he/she chose a Mac over a windows machine after all.

iMovie '08 is not backwards compatible. It is in no way as useful or powerful as its predecessor. It has no timeline, no clip display, no manual audio adjust, no multiple music track select, no clip audio extract, few audio/video effects, it does not accept plug-ins, no chapter markers, no proper iDVD integration, no bookmarks or themes... the list goes on.

Sure you can make a quick "movie' to put up on YouTube but,,, err, I want to make a DVD! A really cool, pro looking movie on a disc godammit! Old iMovie was just as good at doing various tasks as 'new' iMovie, maybe a little slower, but not much.

This is where iMovie excelled. One could produce a wedding/graduation/special occasion DVD that looked really professional for minimal cost as compared to Final Cut. Maybe iMovie was geting too powerful for its own good and taking all the thunder from FCP/E?

"We still have iMovie 6. Use that and quit whining" you may say. Well, not for long. Apple will surely dis-continue support for it until it becomes unuseable on newer machines.

My arguement is clear... iMovie '08 is not "iMovie" at all. It is a totally different kind of beast.

I rest my case.
post #210 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

The article didn't say that they'll definitely add functionality with free updates, that was the speculation part of the article. I don't remember Apple adding many features after the fact with free software updates in iLife. Feature additions are almost always held over for the next paid version.

Though not an iApp, a big update occurred with Aperture 1.5, which was leaps better than 1.0.

 

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post #211 of 279
I'm curious about something.

A lot of people have remarked that one thing that iMovie '08 certainly has over '06 is simplicity. That '06 was "frustrating" or "hard to use".

Now, maybe it's just my familiarity with the earlier program, but it looks to me that to achieve what I can do in '08, I have to:

--Import my clips into the clip bin. This certainly take longer, and the real time stuff in '08 is welcome, but, if I click the "import" button I get the little finder mini-window and I can browse to whatever movie stuff I want. It isn't terribly complex, and '08 requires you to do the same thing, just not necessarily on a project to project basis. If it's a matter of importing camera footage, it's plug in the camera, watch iMovie launch and tell it to import.

--Drag the clips I want into the time line, in the order I want. Same as '08, right? If I need to use a clip more than once, I click on it to highlight it and copy and past. You know, like every other app on the mac. If I want, I can do that either in the clip bin or on the timeline. If I want to add a sound effect or music, I drag it from the "media" browser (pretty similar to the one in '08) onto the timeline. Drag it around to where I want it. See the image scrub while I do. See colored lines representing it. Highlight and delete, if I want. Command T again if I want to cut it somewhere and take out a chunk.

--Drag the playhead along the clip to see it play. Decide what part I want to use. Hit "split clip at playhead" to make a cut, or command T (oh no, a keyboard shortcut! I'm lost!) click on the unwanted portion to highlight it, and hit delete. This actually seems more straightforward, to me, than '08's little framing window with it's default length, although if the idea is you just want to have all 3 second clips it saves what, a keypress?

--Once I have clips in order and the length I want, I can clip that big "editing" button over there and see the tabs for "titles" and "transitions" Pick a style, just like '08. I can drag and drop my transitions, just like '08. See the results previewed, just like '08. If I find the idea of something scary like choosing the length of the transition to overwhelming, I can just go with the default-- just like '08, which fixes that confrontation with befuddlement by leaving out the choice. Again, the real time stuff is very welcome, no one likes to wait for transitions to render. But while that is "more boring" I still can't see how it is "more complex".

And now.... I choose how to export, with a button, just like '08! Nope, don't have a "send to You Tube button". Booooo, '06 sucks.

So......what am I missing? I think it's worth noting that to do the things that I am limited to in '08 in '06 the steps are pretty much the same. That is, '08 takes the very easiest way to use '06 and makes it mandatory. So is it the presence of "choices" lurking around that makes '06 such a show stopper for folks? If so, what does that say about Apple's plans for '08? I mean, if they start adding functionally, doesn't that get all crazy complicated and all? I mean, I guess they could put some stuff behind an "advanced tab". Hmmmmm.......

And, for my money, the layout of the '06 interface is actually much cleaner and easier to grasp its functionality than the new one, which is kind of a hodgepodge of windows and buttons with somewhat cryptic icons and no clear relationships.

Now, the one place where '08 has it all over '06 is the iPhoto style library of all your movie stuff right there in the browser, and if I was going to make a movie with bits and pieces of lots of stuff I had on my HDD, then yes, '08 is, well, at least much faster, and easier in the sense that I don't have to hunt around (up to a point-- if you have actually a great deal of footage it's going to be easier to do a finder style text based search anyway, to get what you want).

But if the big upside is that I get some footage of that dude who can, like, totally put an entire whole apple in his mouth, toss on some music, toss on a title or two, maybe stick a dissolve or something in there-- then I'm not seeing how it's actually less complicated to do that in '08 than in '06.

The way people talk about the barriers to entry in '06, what with its importing and copying and pasting and drag and drop and tabs to select functionality--- well, I can't help but think, wait, what, all of a sudden we can't use any Apple programs? Or is it just as soon as I put "movie" in there bone simple conventions that are used all over OS X become mystifying?
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post #212 of 279
By the way, I will freely and happily admit that I am somewhat beating a dead horse here, since the iMovie '08 ship has clearly sailed, and Apple will do with it as it sees fit.

I was just curious about the ease of use question in this case, as I am in general. Because of being interested in computing, and interfaces, and shit.

I guess what I'm saying is, could we please just skip the "OMFG! Get over it!!!!! Loser!!!!!!" responses? Really, please, I'm happy to hear how '08 is easier, or how maybe the overall experience is just sort of more inviting, or whatever, from any given perspective.

But just defaulting to variations on "shut up, whiner" is so very dreary, and makes Addabox cranky, and doesn't really add anything, at this point.
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post #213 of 279
I think the best that can be said is that the lack of features is the primary simplification of iMovie '08. If you're just starting out, and you're trying to figure something out, there's less stuff to wade through that you don't understand.
post #214 of 279
Another great feature of '08 that has not really been mentioned is its adjustments and transitions, etc, are not only instant, but non-destructive. You can always revert to the original form at any time, something that requires a lot of memory (not to mention time) in HD.

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #215 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

I think the best that can be said is that the lack of features is the primary simplification of iMovie '08. If you're just starting out, and you're trying to figure something out, there's less stuff to wade through that you don't understand.

I can kind of see that, once you get the browser/library populated with all your footage.

But, again, I look at the default iMovie '06 work space. I see a place for clips, I see a timeline. I drag clips to timeline. I drag transitions to timeline.

It's true, I have to press a "clips" button see and drag clips, and an "editing" button to see and drag transitions, but is that really a lot to wade through?

Is the little yellow clip length window actually less confusing than scrubbing through your clip to where you want to make cuts and hitting the cut command?

One thing that occurs to me is that '06 sort of invites you to do a lot, so even if you decline and just use the defaults and most overt aspects of the UI, you still have a "sense" that it's more complicated than it is. Whereas since '08 makes sure that you can't do anything but the most overt stuff maybe there is a psychological effect of "less intimidating".

Which gets into some interesting UI stuff regarding discoverability. My understanding is that discoverability is how you offer depth without making the interface too horrendously complicated.

So, for instance, in a world processing program, you want to put the most frequently used tools right out there in the default interface where anyone can see and understand what they're for. But it really wouldn't be that great an idea to simply limit the tool set to what can be comfortably deployed within the standard window, so you strive to put less frequently used tools where they can be readily discovered-- as in not going more than two deep in a menu tree, or making sure that tool bar buttons that offer multiple choices indicate that graphically, somehow.

So what I'm having a hard time understanding is why a video editing program needs to be pretty much the simplest-by-way-of-constraining-the-tool-set app on the Mac?

I mean, iPhoto, brand new '08 iPhoto, is much more complicated than iMovie '08. It offers many more options for dealing with your media, editorially, organizationally, and presentationally. Garageband is vastly more complicated, requiring the user to understand the use of a timeline, meter, tempo, multiple tracks, loops, several different work spaces depending on what you're doing, etc.

But I don't here anyone yearning to see those apps brought into the realm of mere mortals by drastically limiting what they can do.

And Pages is Photoshop compared to iMovie, but surely no one would advocate for making the preset templates the only way you can do anything, so people won't get lost with options? Offering the templates, sure, that way anyone who doesn't want to mess with formatting can produce a pretty good looking letter, or whatever. But taking the formatting tools away? Obviously, a non-starter.

Maybe it's because we're such a visual culture, which increasingly means a moving image culture, so that the act of making and sharing moving images needs to more along the lines of texting-- the interface is practically invisible, but for what is intended formatting and editing options are actually liabilities. Media creation and sharing, for the average user, becomes entirely ad hoc and casual, and nearly in real time, so that the tools to manipulate media need to emphasize speed and transparency over any other criteria.

Still, even if Apple were to add a Twitter level text app, focused on getting that cumbersome email UI out of the way, you wouldn't expect them to replace Pages with it.
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post #216 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Another great feature of '08 that has not really been mentioned is its adjustments and transitions, etc, are not only instant, but non-destructive. You can always revert to the original form at any time, something that requires a lot of memory (not to mention time) in HD.

Agree completely. But the addition of things like real time adjustments and non-destructive editing is sort of a separate issue from the "iMovie had to shed features to make it easier to use" argument.
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post #217 of 279
[QUOTE=meelash;1128508]They DID. That's the whole point.

And just for the record, I think David Pogue's article is pretty much spot-on to the real situation, internal to Apple and out here on the fora.

The real test for Apple, I think, is how quickly this new iMovie develops into something that can match or beat HD in capability as well as ease of use.

Meelash: .... The only thing wrong with that logic is this:
It has already been stated by Steve Jobs that the driving force behind Imovie8 was ease of use, right? If that's his desire then, in order to make it " better " he has to make it even more simplistic to satisfy the u-tube crowd bcause to add more functionality would make it less easy and more like, I dunno, .....Imovie HD ? .. let's face it ... the only thing that makes sense is Apple is starting to change it's business model to resemble that of microsoft .. make your free apps pretty basic ( crappy ) and offer better apps at a higher price. If this trend continues we will end up with two " microsofts " .. one in Redmond and another in Cupertino.
P.S. I found this post on another discussion board and found it very interesting indeed, so FYI:
17th,
2007
1:14 pm
This is part of a REALLY interesting trend. First, disclosure: I’m an apple tech, I work with guys from apple, I have loads of macs at home, I love apple.
BUT, something very bad is happening.
The Mac platform has always had one up on the competition - they’ve always included amazing applications so it was a semi-pro machine right out of the box - but this change in iMovie is a move toward the PC model - you can’t really edit video unless you buy Final Cut - that is a very bad move for apple.
Also, take a close look a the new iMac - remind you of anything? It looks exactly like Dell flatscreens - and the desktop image in Leopard? Yep, looks like Vista - what is apple doing? They’re trying to blend in, so the Mac isn’t seen as “standing out”. That’s actually what the guys who work at apple are saying.
They’ve always been the industry leader - but I watch them very closely and I see a very specific and intentional move toward copying the business model of the PC world. They hope this strategy will win them more mainstream acceptance, but I’m afraid it’s the beginning of a period where Apple is no longer the innovator…
As someone commented to me yesterday, it’s starting to seem like all the revolutionary product from Apple is just what Steve brought from NEXT - and that well is running dry.
— Posted by MacHead
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
Reply
post #218 of 279
[QUOTE=newbee;1128770]
Quote:
Originally Posted by meelash View Post

They DID. That's the whole point.

And just for the record, I think David Pogue's article is pretty much spot-on to the real situation, internal to Apple and out here on the fora.

The real test for Apple, I think, is how quickly this new iMovie develops into something that can match or beat HD in capability as well as ease of use.

Meelash: .... The only thing wrong with that logic is this:
It has already been stated by Steve Jobs that the driving force behind Imovie8 was ease of use, right? If that's his desire then, in order to make it " better " he has to make it even more simplistic to satisfy the u-tube crowd bcause to add more functionality would make it less easy and more like, I dunno, .....Imovie HD ? .. let's face it ... the only thing that makes sense is Apple is starting to change it's business model to resemble that of microsoft .. make your free apps pretty basic ( crappy ) and offer better apps at a higher price. If this trend continues we will end up with two " microsofts " .. one in Redmond and another in Cupertino.
P.S. I found this post on another discussion board and found it very interesting indeed, so FYI:
17th,
2007
1:14 pm
This is part of a REALLY interesting trend. First, disclosure: Im an apple tech, I work with guys from apple, I have loads of macs at home, I love apple.
BUT, something very bad is happening.
The Mac platform has always had one up on the competition - theyve always included amazing applications so it was a semi-pro machine right out of the box - but this change in iMovie is a move toward the PC model - you cant really edit video unless you buy Final Cut - that is a very bad move for apple.
Also, take a close look a the new iMac - remind you of anything? It looks exactly like Dell flatscreens - and the desktop image in Leopard? Yep, looks like Vista - what is apple doing? Theyre trying to blend in, so the Mac isnt seen as standing out. Thats actually what the guys who work at apple are saying.
Theyve always been the industry leader - but I watch them very closely and I see a very specific and intentional move toward copying the business model of the PC world. They hope this strategy will win them more mainstream acceptance, but Im afraid its the beginning of a period where Apple is no longer the innovator
As someone commented to me yesterday, its starting to seem like all the revolutionary product from Apple is just what Steve brought from NEXT - and that well is running dry.
Posted by MacHead

There is only so much that can be done with a 2D desktop IMO - most of the new features in Leopard have done before, multiple desktops was done like 20 years ago with X11, Time Machine is similar in some ways to Shadow Volume Copy (Previous Versions) in Win2003/Vista. The improved Finder and Quick Look look good, but I dislike the current Finder to begin with, compared to Windows Explorer or KDE/Gnome, so anything was an improvement to me.

As far as Apple standing out, they do and don't for me; the white and aluminum casing styles were original a few years ago, but after awhile everything from Apple has that same sterile look, but they remind me nothing of Dell, HP, Gateway - those are primarily black cases, and the one company that has any real flair is Sony.

I don't think what Apple is doing is bad from a business standpoint, they're just becoming largely profit driven.
post #219 of 279
I don't know if this has been covered already but if iMovie is a brand new application with just the iMovie name, why is it still a carbon application and not a cocoa application?

Just wondering....

Dave
post #220 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

Apple is starting to change it's business model to resemble that of microsoft .. make your free apps pretty basic ( crappy ) and offer better apps at a higher price. If this trend continues we will end up with two " microsofts " .. one in Redmond and another in Cupertino.

I wouldn't call the 79$ iWork a rip off. Excel is already looking like a dinosaur compared to Numbers. 79$ really is not an issue compared to the insane three digit price of Microsoft's Office suite!


Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

Also, take a close look a the new iMac - remind you of anything? It looks exactly like Dell flatscreens

I did have several close looks at the new iMac and it does look stunning unlike the previous white brick. It is lightyears ahead of the current Dell look. It truly is a marvel with state of the art materials and textures.


Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

- and the desktop image in Leopard? Yep, looks like Vista - what is apple doing?

For the record, Vista's menu bar is a shiny solid black bar on the bottom of the screen. Leopard does have a transparent menu bar at the top of the screen. The transparent menu bar is less pronounced as it is blending into your customised desktop picture. What is apple doing? Well, adding a little zen onto your clutter free desktop


Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

Theyre trying to blend in, so the Mac isnt seen as standing out. Thats actually what the guys who work at apple are saying.

"Blending things in" is not a bad idea from a Usability point of view. It creates a feeling of familiarity, putting people at ease and thus shortening the learning curve. And blending is not the same as copying. I think it is rather about making things accessible with a sting


Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

They hope this strategy will win them more mainstream acceptance, but Im afraid its the beginning of a period where Apple is no longer the innovator
As someone commented to me yesterday, its starting to seem like all the revolutionary product from Apple is just what Steve brought from NEXT - and that well is running dry.

They just released the iPhone with a revolutionary touch screen interface! Enough said
post #221 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

By the way, I will freely and happily admit that I am somewhat beating a dead horse here, since the iMovie '08 ship has clearly sailed, and Apple will do with it as it sees fit.

Addabox, it is great to see how passionate you are about iMovie. It illustrates how iMovie 06 has become a genuine part of your creative life.

iMovie 08 is a new beginning. It is going to attract new people to the magic world of moving image. Only time will reveal the true ambition behind this seemingly draconian move.
post #222 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post

...I don't think what Apple is doing is bad from a business standpoint, they're just becoming largely profit driven.

How is this different from any public company or from Apple in the past? Or, when has Apple not been profit driven? They have some of the highest margins in the business.
post #223 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr O View Post

Addabox, it is great to see how passionate you are about iMovie. It illustrates how iMovie 06 has become a genuine part of your creative life.

iMovie 08 is a new beginning. It is going to attract new people to the magic world of moving image. Only time will reveal the true ambition behind this seemingly draconian move.

True enough. If Apple sees fit to restore some reasonable level of granular control over picture and sound (within some UI option that makes such control usable), on top of the quick access library and scrubbing feature, I will be the first to sing its praises.

Unfortunately, I don't think we can expect much in the way of functionality improvements before iMovie '09, and even then I would expect only a limited subset of what iMovie '06 could do.

While my objections are somewhat from a pragmatic user's perspective, my real concerns are more generally about what Apple considers a "simple" app.

One of the hallmarks of the Apple experience is the presentation of a simple default interface on top of more advanced functionality made discoverable via clever UI design. Dive right in, acquire new tools as your comfort level increases.

I don't think I've ever seen Apple produce a piece of software that simply skipped the "more advanced functionality made discoverable" part, which, given some of the imponderables of Apple's evolution into a CE company, sets off alarm bells, for me.
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post #224 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

I don't know if this has been covered already but if iMovie is a brand new application with just the iMovie name, why is it still a carbon application and not a cocoa application?

Just wondering....

Dave

Good question.
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post #225 of 279
I've used very version of iMovie from the very first and for the last few days I've been getting used to 08. I've also edited everything from weddings to videos of my daughter. I can see why people are upset with 08 if they've gotten used to HD or where really into advanced video or sound editing. The new version falls short, but I have to honestly say it is a heck of a lot easier and I think that's partly because of the new features, however, it would have been nicer if Apple had simply added those features over top of HD 06. Clearly they want people to buy FCE but with that same logic they should have dumbed down iPhoto and encourged people to buy Aperture, so there may be more going on that we may never know about. I will be using iMovie 08 but that's partly because it allows me, at least, to work more quickly and produce the videos faster and when you have kids that's what you want. Nobody cares about any special effects I've included in past movies; they just want to see the movies finished. I feel bad for those people who want to do more.
post #226 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

I would have to agree they really screwed up this time, I smell a lawsuit coming Apple's way.

America has to be the only country on earth where you can sue a company for a product you don't like.

I mean, for godsake, people should vote with their wallet and choose to not buy it. Not withstanding the fact that if people did buy it they would simply suffer disappointment, not financial or emotional loss.
post #227 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by k squared View Post

How is this different from any public company or from Apple in the past? Or, when has Apple not been profit driven? They have some of the highest margins in the business.


The difference is .... in the past Apple has used increased quality to gain marketshare ..... now it would seem they are reducing quality to gain marketshare .... that's a MAJOR shift in Apple's philosophy, and IMHO a bad move.
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post #228 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

The difference is .... in the past Apple has used increased quality to gain marketshare ..... now it would seem they are reducing quality to gain marketshare .... that's a MAJOR shift in Apple's philosophy, and IMHO a bad move.

Indeed my friend. That is exactly what Apple seems to be doing, and that is exactly what will alienate its existing user base.

There may well come a day when no one will be able to distinguish between a Mac and PC, either design wise or OS wise. Respective applications will all look and function similarly. Will this be a good thing just to gain a little market share? (if that actually works). Would you then advise a prospective buyer to choose a Mac over a PC? What reason would exist to choose one over the other?

Much of what made a consumer Mac the best solution out there for making 'proper' movies has now been lost with 'new' iMovie, and that is a dreadful pity IMHO.

One step forward, two steps back.
post #229 of 279
I've come into this discussion far too late to read all 6 pages, but can iLife' 08 be installed without installing iMovie '08? Sounds like this would be the ideal.

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post #230 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

The difference is .... in the past Apple has used increased quality to gain marketshare ..... now it would seem they are reducing quality to gain marketshare .... that's a MAJOR shift in Apple's philosophy, and IMHO a bad move.

They use hype, innovation, and the "coolness factor" to sell products. The loss in quality is a result of a) pushing the envelope to make a product as good looking as possible and b) a willingness to give up features to add cool new ones even if the new feature isn't as useful to everyone as the old.
post #231 of 279
I haven't had a chance to try out iMovie 08 yet, but from the sounds of it, it seems like there are valid points on both sides.

I'd like to add my voice to those who are suggesting that it should have been a complementary product rather than a replacement.
post #232 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Really not sure what the big deal is at this point. All new Macs will come with iLife 08 installed and iMovie HD 6 is a free download so you can have both applications on your system and use whichever you like based on needs.

Just downloaded HD 6 now and it puts it in a seperate folder called (pevious versions).

Not exactly rocket science here.

Some of us who already have iLife '06 are obviously dumb enough to run into the stores and pay $79 for something that has less functionality than before. At least I can be happy that iMovie HD can be downloaded for free... well, geee, thanks.
post #233 of 279
Quote:
I can't believe people are citing the Pogue article to show that all is well.

I didn't quote Pogue as saying "all is well". He did quote Apple saying '08 is version 1 and updates should come in the future. That is all I was saying.

Quote:
The article didn't say that they'll definitely add functionality with free updates, that was the speculation part of the article.

Here is what he said...."Apple says that it was thinking: “It’s 1.0. We’ll bring it up to par with free software updates, like we always do.”

That sounds like a direct quote from Apple to me.

Quote:
This post is a classic example of quoting "out of context" as it would seem to indicate that Pogue is in favor of Imovie 8 when, in fact, he , according to the FULL article, is not. Is there an agenda here that I don't get? .....just asking

Where in my post did I say Pogue is in favor of iMovie 08? I don't use iMovie and don't really care either way.
post #234 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

They use hype, innovation, and the "coolness factor" to sell products. The loss in quality is a result of a) pushing the envelope to make a product as good looking as possible and b) a willingness to give up features to add cool new ones even if the new feature isn't as useful to everyone as the old.

Agreed. Just because a new product comes out, doesn't necessarily mean it is better than the old or something I want to adopt right away.

Leopard may well arrive with some pretty cool and useful features. But I am not sitting here today thinking, "Man, I really can't wait to see that operating system. I really NEED some of those new features Leopard may or will offer."

In addition to web surfing and e-mail, my computer use involves my using iMovie '06 and some plug-ins to make a VERY nice chunk of change as a part-time wedding day film maker. It is not very likely at all to happen, but say theoretically Leopard would not run iMovie '06. There would be no reason in the world that I would want to be an early adopter of it even if it had a lot of "hot new and cool features."

Just my $0.02.

post #235 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slackula View Post

Agreed. Just because a new product comes out, doesn't necessarily mean it is better than the old or something I want to adopt right away.

Leopard may well arrive with some pretty cool and useful features. But I am not sitting here today thinking, "Man, I really can't wait to see that operating system. I really NEED some of those new features Leopard may or will offer."

In addition to web surfing and e-mail, my computer use involves my using iMovie '06 and some plug-ins to make a VERY nice chunk of change as a part-time wedding day film maker. It is not very likely at all to happen, but say theoretically Leopard would not run iMovie '06. There would be no reason in the world that I would want to be an early adopter of it even if it had a lot of "hot new and cool features."

Just my $0.02.


Therein lies the rub. If Leopard doesn't support iMovie '06 then how many iMovie "power users" will upgrade their OS? What about upgrading their hardware?

Tiger suits a lot of people just fine. If iMovie '08 doesn't get a decent feature upgrade soon (ala '06), or scrapped altogether, then it just might stay that way. Maybe Apple don't particularly care either way. We live in troubled times...\

I see a petition has been started... iMovie Petition
post #236 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMac View Post

Therein lies the rub. If Leopard doesn't support iMovie '06 then how many iMovie "power users" will upgrade their OS? What about upgrading their hardware?

Tiger suits a lot of people just fine. If iMovie '08 doesn't get a decent feature upgrade soon (ala '06), or scrapped altogether, then it just might stay that way. Maybe Apple don't particularly care either way. We live in troubled times...\

I see a petition has been started... iMovie Petition


Well stated!
post #237 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiMac View Post

Maybe Apple don't particularly care either way. We live in troubled times...\

Now that would really really be troubling!!! To show he does care, I say Jobs should offer a 50% discount on FCExp to owners of iLife08!
post #238 of 279
Or, just exchange any copy of iLife '08 for a free version of FCE, no questions asked. -
post #239 of 279
iLife 08 is great imovie 08 is better for hd cameras that have hard drives and you can make videos on the fly but it is not ment to replace final cut pro or final cut pro express is a begging type software it does need more transitions and they should be free or at a small cost just like in garageband you can buy loops so i hope apple does update imovie to support more transtions.
post #240 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

Clive, your dream (and mine) of a prosumer tower died a final, last-nail-in-the-coffin, death when the aluminum iMacs were introduced. Steve said "it's an all in one world". I am convinced that Steve only sees two target markets for Macs: consumers with limited talent but lots of money, and pro content producers. The former group supposedly want appliances and the latter huge configurable towers.

I have yet to see anything you can't do with either a MBP or an iMac that you could do with a "prosumer" tower other than better framerates for games.

Perhaps there are only two target markets because consumer machines are powerful enough for anyone that really isn't a prosumer. You can edit an indy HDV movie on an iMac for God's sake. WTF more prosumer do you want?

eSATA off the iMac would be nice...but FW800 is good enough for now. Apple seems to favor fiberchannel for pro use.

Quote:
Unfortunately for Steve's vision of what people want, the knowledge and skills of the consumer class are rising daily. This is most noticeable in the desktop market where the name brands are all losing market share to the so-called white boxes, computers assembled by end users or small shops using individually sourced parts.

Right. Show me that Dell and HP has lost share to whiteboxes. In 2004 whitebox had 38% share (trending down since 2002) down to 28.7% in 2006 according to Gartner. Down nearly 10 points over 2 years sounds like major suckage not major gains.

http://www.channelpro-digital.com/ch.../200704/?pg=23

So wrong.

Vinea
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