Apple stirs controversy with iMovie's '08 overhaul - Page 7

They use hype, innovation, and the "coolness factor" to sell products. The loss in quality is a result of a) pushing the envelope to make a product as good looking as possible and b) a willingness to give up features to add cool new ones even if the new feature isn't as useful to everyone as the old.

I haven't had a chance to try out iMovie 08 yet, but from the sounds of it, it seems like there are valid points on both sides.

I'd like to add my voice to those who are suggesting that it should have been a complementary product rather than a replacement.

Some of us who already have iLife '06 are obviously dumb enough to run into the stores and pay $79 for something that has less functionality than before. At least I can be happy that iMovie HD can be downloaded for free... well, geee, thanks.

I didn't quote Pogue as saying "all is well". He did quote Apple saying '08 is version 1 and updates should come in the future. That is all I was saying.


Here is what he said...."Apple says that it was thinking: “It’s 1.0. We’ll bring it up to par with free software updates, like we always do.”

That sounds like a direct quote from Apple to me.


Where in my post did I say Pogue is in favor of iMovie 08? I don't use iMovie and don't really care either way.

Agreed. Just because a new product comes out, doesn't necessarily mean it is better than the old or something I want to adopt right away.

Leopard may well arrive with some pretty cool and useful features. But I am not sitting here today thinking, "Man, I really can't wait to see that operating system. I really NEED some of those new features Leopard may or will offer."

In addition to web surfing and e-mail, my computer use involves my using iMovie '06 and some plug-ins to make a VERY nice chunk of change as a part-time wedding day film maker. It is not very likely at all to happen, but say theoretically Leopard would not run iMovie '06. There would be no reason in the world that I would want to be an early adopter of it even if it had a lot of "hot new and cool features."

Just my $0.02.

Therein lies the rub. If Leopard doesn't support iMovie '06 then how many iMovie "power users" will upgrade their OS? What about upgrading their hardware?

Tiger suits a lot of people just fine. If iMovie '08 doesn't get a decent feature upgrade soon (ala '06), or scrapped altogether, then it just might stay that way. Maybe Apple don't particularly care either way. We live in troubled times...\

I see a petition has been started... iMovie Petition

Well stated!

Now that would really really be troubling!!! To show he does care, I say Jobs should offer a 50% discount on FCExp to owners of iLife08!

Or, just exchange any copy of iLife '08 for a free version of FCE, no questions asked. -

iLife 08 is great imovie 08 is better for hd cameras that have hard drives and you can make videos on the fly but it is not ment to replace final cut pro or final cut pro express is a begging type software it does need more transitions and they should be free or at a small cost just like in garageband you can buy loops so i hope apple does update imovie to support more transtions.

I have yet to see anything you can't do with either a MBP or an iMac that you could do with a "prosumer" tower other than better framerates for games.

Perhaps there are only two target markets because consumer machines are powerful enough for anyone that really isn't a prosumer. You can edit an indy HDV movie on an iMac for God's sake. WTF more prosumer do you want?

eSATA off the iMac would be nice...but FW800 is good enough for now. Apple seems to favor fiberchannel for pro use.


Right. Show me that Dell and HP has lost share to whiteboxes. In 2004 whitebox had 38% share (trending down since 2002) down to 28.7% in 2006 according to Gartner. Down nearly 10 points over 2 years sounds like major suckage not major gains.

http://www.channelpro-digital.com/ch.../200704/?pg=23

So wrong.

Vinea

The probability that leopard breaks iLife 06 approaches zero.

There is a thread on Apple discussions. I contacted Panasonic factory in Japan. They blame iMovie. Their response is on the Apple thread. I contacted Apple helpdesk with all this info. They told me to take this serious and are investigating the problem. Hope they will have a solution real soon!

http://discussions.apple.com/thread....readID=1076647

I certainly agree that iMovie 8 is a useless program for me. I like to make quality vacation videos. I am not at the Final Cut level, nor do I feel I want to spend that kind of cash on a program for vacations and special events.

I can see that if I wanted to replace a segment within an almost finished production without disturbing audio tracks or timing, or try to match the beat of dance steps or playing to an audio track, it would simply be impossible to do in iM8.

If I just wanted to throw something together, then iM8's a possibility.

My big problem with many of the people on this and other boards is when they say "you can still download iM6.. what's the problem?". iM6 was never was a perfect program although it was very good, it is still in need of some updating. Do you think that is ever going to happen now that Apple's direction on iMovie has changed? It will soon become outdated with a lack of support. What then?

Maybe I'm just of a different personality type than Apple is shooting for. I like to craft something that is quality, not just slap some half hearted junk together in 5 minutes just so I can say I posted something to youtube.

I really hope the folks at Apple realize they have made a mistake and hopefully keep both versions of iMovie going. Next time Steve, do better market research!!

I think Apple is wanting you and everyone else that thought iMovie 06 was great for them to move to Final Cut Express. This should be obvious. I do think that iMovie '08 will get updated with some great features but knowing Apple, it might be a year from now before we get them or it might be in January 08. You just don't know with all the secrecy.

I find iMovie 08 great for quick projects, although I am having some problems with video screen captures at the moment exporting to a QT movie, but I think it is clear that Apple has simplified the process and is pushing us one way or the other.

I use Final Cut Studio and it is really not hard to pick up on. I do miss the Star Wars intro in iMovie 06 though.

I think it comes down to selling more FCE seats and making video easier for those less inclined to make them.

Thanks, I am following the thread but I wonder how serious Apple is about this because this is the exact camera Steve Jobs himself pimped on stage! Pretty pissed right now with a vacation to Hawaii coming up in under 2 months. There is a fix posted and it will do for the time being. ;-) Was sucks as well is the same is true for Final Cut Studio. Now that $$!$ is not acceptable to me after dropping that kind of money into Apple's pocket for professional grade software.

Seems the argument is over a differing philosophy. Is iMovie a mini Final Cut or is iMovie an app that's supposed to be easy for anyone to use. It seems Apple has decided it to be an app easy for anyone to use. Of course that points anyone who wants certain pro like features towards buying apps instead of using the one that came with the computer.

I saw this blog posted, doing more with less

in what he calls a review, david pogue spends the bulk of his time listing the features apple removed from imovie and complaining that now he cant do what he used to. however in the process, pogue made it perfectly clear that he was using imovie for pro-level like work. and now that he cant do that anymore, hes upset because he has to go buy final cut express. i cant really blame pogue, who wants to pay $250 for features that he was getting for free. but what about all those other people, mr. pogue? the ones who just looked at imovie and said i cant figure this shit out. too many buttons and windows and choices. forget it.

after reading pogues review i decided to try imovie 08 for my latest video review. i admit i had to make a few changes to some of the things i normally put in my video reviews but the joy, the joy of being able to quickly select the good parts from all the video i imported, string it together, add titles and the credit screen, and then crop the video from HD to standard definition with 3 clicks 3 clicks!

so, mr. pogue, for those of us who arent pro level users who refuse to admit it. for people who want to edit video quickly and easily, imovie 08 is a huge leap forward, not a step back.

Good find. I am a pro user who likes to fiddle with a movie for hours, but I also like being able to throw something together instantly as I did tonight with footage from my new HG10 AVCHD camera. It was a breeze.

I bought the camera two days ago and spent the day yesterday driving around taking shots here there and everywhere. When I got home I had about 70 short clips, ranging from 20 seconds to 3 minutes. Clips of mountains, a ferry port, people in a park, birds in the sky, a rocket launching facility, fireworks, a volcano, all shot in super HD. Importing to my iMac did take some time as the files are huge and the cam has a USB 2 (no FW800).

As I put the movie together, I noticed I wanted to cut most of the audio from the clips (noise from other cars, wild drunks howling, engine noise form the ferry) and add commentary. This was easily done. I also watched a pro documentary this evening and noticed they used only three different transitions during the entire 2 hour show but t looked slick; the focus was on the content. So, I only used three transitions in my movie.

iMovie '08 made the whole effort a breeze. In the end, I shared to iTunes, my homepage and a QT movie for the heck of it.

That's what the discussion was about though. iMovie was never a pro level app, I really didn't think it even had pro like features. I also really don't believe that iMovie 6 was inherently difficult. If a timeline was too difficult to comprehend, that's not a problem, because you didn't have to use the timeline mode. I do agree that iMovie 8 does bring new things to the offering, but I just don't get the rationale on many of the things that it leaves behind.

If anything needed to be simplified like that, I think it would be Garage Band. I "got" iMovie 6 in minutes, Garage Band was a series of bafflements that I've never surmounted to get a finished project.

Even some PVR boxes have functioning eSATA ports now. FW800 is too expensive for just about anyone, IMO. At least for the external boxes, it doesn't look like eSATA costs anything extra, FW800 seems to cost an extra $50 per drive. If Apple pushed FW800 into their consumer systems a couple years ago, maybe it wouldn't be a problem.

Once you introduce timelines, time code, and multi-track audio. You are most certainly entering "pro like" nomenclature. If you already have a grasp of these concenpts you are ahead of the curve of most people out there. It seems the point of '08 is to shrink the learning curve. The pure test of the ease of '06 or '08 is to have someone who knows nothing about video editing try them both and tell what they think.


Perhaps it plays to a different mind set. I know people who do music and think Garage Band is as simple as it gets.

Are there consumer video apps that don't have time line? There's a point where it ceases to be consumer and becomes Fisher-Price. Anyone that didn't want to use a time line didn't even have to use it.

Did iMovie have time code support at all? I'm fine with that not being in iMovie, on this point, I would agree.

There wasn't much to iMovie 6's multi track capabilities, it's hardly what I would call a pro like capability.


There's a parallel here. A lot of us thought that iMovie was as simple as it gets.

Not sure if 40 people are going to be enough to convince Apple to throw millions more in resources at "correcting" iMovie '08.

Probably not but that is only because the timeline and time code are a convention taken from pro apps which was adopted from linear video editing to make it easier for video editors to transition from tape to tape to computer hard drive based editing.

Editing is essentially timing and knowing where to make a transition from one action to another. The skill in editing is knowing where to make a cut and it doesn't matter what tool you use to make that cut.


I don't call it "pro like" because its not as developed as some other NLE. Its "pro like" becasue multi-track audio increases the learning curve. To properly use it you have to learn.

I can understand why people are upset at the changes from 06 to 08.

However, I never used iMovie 06. I could use it - I knew how - but I never did. The main reasons were: 1. destructive editing and 2. I had access to FCP.

Now, even if I use FCP for more advanced work, iMovie 08 still has value to me in how quickly I can put something together. Also, the library is really useful (although, because I have a MacBook as my primary machine, I can't keep much in the library at the same time). As the tech adviser to my family, I can say that they are MUCH more likely to use iMovie 08 than 06. iMovie 08 is much more like an iPhoto for video. Just as iPhoto is not Photoshop Elements, iMovie does not need to be Final Cut lite.

Now, however, to justify this change in iMovie Apple really needs to bring out a much improved version of FCE which is easier to use, has the cool themes etc but has the power. And it needs to be substantially cheaper. Make it US$99 and it is a winner.

Sorry, double post.

That's the crux of it, right there.

What other programs, on the Mac, could this not be said of? Every application I am aware of has an implicit assumption built in: you will need to learn at least a few conventions to begin to use it. As you gain familiarity, you can take advantage of some additional functionality.

This is true of Page, Garage Band, iPhoto, Mail, Keynote, even iTunes.

But somehow, there is a new standard, just for video editing, that declares there must be no learning curve at all, and anything that isn't instantly graspable at the level of drag and drop is "too complicated" and must be removed.

I've made the point several times now, but if Apple had taken a similar hatchet to any of the apps above, I'm pretty sure most of the people who are satisfied with iMovie '08 would be screaming bloody murder, no matter how "streamlined" the interface had become, and no matter how many assurances they received that now that Pages, say, was reduced to a handful of very basic options, many more people would be able to tackle that whole, esoteric world of "page layout". I'm guessing that even quite a few anecdotes about how various cousins, siblings and pets were delighted that they, too, could now pick one of three document formats or one of ten fonts and use the "upload to my blog" button without having to really think about it or learn anything, wouldn't do much to win too many people over. They might forgiven for being of the opinion that there is a trade-off between simplicity and functionality, and that it is quite possible to err on the side of the former.

I would also like to point out that many people are conflating some of the modern improvements in iMovie '08, such as a ubiquitous media browser, real time transitions and non-destructive editing, with "ease of use", as if those things couldn't have been added to something very much like iMovie '06, or adding those things without removing, say, control of audio level within a clip would have made iMovie '08 harder to use.

Pages and Keynote are part of iWork. Garage Band is arguably harder but also arguably even less used. iTunes is simpler. Mail is trivial.

Some folks hate iMovie 08. Other folks are picking it up where they never touched iMovie 06. I'd say that if the latter outnumbers the former then Apple did a good job but from here and now and where we stand that's hard to tell.

Vinea

So? If the "get people using software that they otherwise wouldn't use by making simpler by removing features" idea is a good one, why shouldn't it apply across the board?


Which suggests that Apple should have done something about that by removing even more features from Garage Band to make it even simpler to get more people using it.


Only because you've actually been motivated to learn how to use them. Go into the menus in Mail and tell me that there is less there than in iMovie. I bet a lot of people don't use things like smart mail boxes because they can't figure out how. Apple should remove that functionality to make Mail more inviting. Also, they really need to get rid of that "Advanced" tab in iTunes. It makes me nervous just knowing it's there.


That's true enough, up to a point, but pandering for market share isn't really Apple's thing, is it? Why not change up some of the OS UI conventions to make them more like Windows, and if market share increases then we'll know it was the right thing to do, right?

At any rate, my suspicion is that iMovie '08 will, in fact, have more people fooling with video, for a while. The trouble is, without any depth of functionality, there isn't much there to hold one's interest. After importing a bunch of old footage kicking around on your hard drive, and tossing a few clips on top of each other, the novelty will wear off, and then we'll be back to people who actually want to do something with video. And then what?

The theory seems to be that if you can make video editing something that you barely have to think about then you have made it "accessible" and "fun". In my experience, accessibility and fun only stick around when you have the chance to get better at something. The new iMovie almost militantly guards against that possibility-- the movie you found so easy to make the first time out will be the movie you make the tenth, and twentieth, and hundredth time. Assuming anyone even bothers to take it that far.

Put together another two short films today, one in 06 and one in 08, very similar format. 08 beat 06 hands down, for my purposes: I was finished in 30 minutes whereas 06 took about an hour (I had to adjust video color and that takes ages in 06, especially if you don't get it right the first time around).

I honestly do not understand the fuss, and I know 06 pretty well and have every GeeThree collection. iMovie 08 is a fabulous app.

Addabox, you made some very good points there and I'd have to agree with you. Why 'simplify' something that was once an extremely useful tool for many just to appeal to a potential market of users that will dabble for a while then get bored with it. Sure, a 'movie' will be knocked out in less time with minimal effort, though as you say, it will be the same movie again and again. Now that's progress!

Was it not possible to re-write iMovie 06 to include the new features as well as the old, keeping the familiar UI with timelines etc. (maybe as an 'advanced' feature)? Ah, no. Lots of FCE boxes to shift.

iMovie 06? ... God forbid anyone should have to learn something?!! We couldn't allow that!

The future? ... Apple. The choice for people who think "Taco Bell" is a phone company.

Scrubbing, a ubiquitous media browser and real time transitions are fabulous features, and almost certainly account for your speed up.

I can't imagine how, given those improvements, it would be any more difficult or slower in iMovie '06 to drag clips to the timeline, drag transitions between clips, and drag sound onto that.

Then, you could change up your transitions, vary the sound levels with simple dragging, have some actual control over your titles, maybe add an effect or two (I know, I know, it involves dragging the effect onto the clip you want to effect, so it's pretty hard, but still.....) and send it off to iDVD for archiving.

The point being that the features that make iMovie '08 faster and easier are in no way incompatible with the features that made iMovie '06 more powerful.

Right? People keep saying something like "scrubbing is great, couldn't do scrubbing in iMovie '06, so iMovie '08 is much better and just what the doctor ordered."

Improvements and reduced functionality are not somehow obliged to go hand-in-hand.

It is in that the entire UI has been completely changed to make it more intuitive for people who know nothing about video editing.


The point isn't for people to dabble and get bored. The point is to make it easier to use and more useful to a larger group of people.


People will still have to learn to use 08. Its about shrinking the learning curve for people who do not want to spend a great deal of time or effort to cut home movies.

Well, I still disagree that any of that requires dropping functionality. I also just can't see what is so bewildering about a timeline. How is having the linear elements of your movie running from left to right less intuitive than having line breaks with little jagged edges to indicate that the shot continues?

Just imagine the media browser, scrubbing and real time transitions combined with something much like iMovie '06's timeline and flexibility. I honestly can't imagine how that was going to be harder to use than what we got.


But again, without much in the way of discoverability or depth, people will dabble and get bored. There's nothing very interesting about making a movie of 4 second shots with 1 second dissolves and an iTunes song on top of it, which is the model the UI encourages you to use. And God knows there won't be anything very interesting about watching that.


I'm still not convinced that iMovie '06 required all that much in the way of time and effort, but at any rate it should have been possible to directly address its areas of slowness-- importing and transition rendering-- while keeping some fine grained control, even if only quarantined by an advanced tab.

It's not that it's a bad idea to make a program that allows new comers to dive right in, it's that it's a bad idea to begin and end with that level of functionality, if only because new comers become seasoned hands and start wanting to try something a little more advanced.

Because Keynote is as much "Pro" vs Powerpoint as FCP is "Pro" vs iMovie?


Perhaps they should. I dunno...I've never had much inclination to play with it although I might now with iMovie.


Are you seriously trying to say that reading email using Mail is an equal or more complex task than using iMovie HD?


We're not talking about market share. We're talking about serving their existing iLife userbase. If most iLife users didn't find iMovie HD approachable then simplification was correct if more customers end up using it where fewer did before.


It may be hard to believe but for some folks making movies isn't fun as much as it is a chore. I do not want to spend 40 minutes much less 40 hours making a movie from my kids B-day party. I want to put something together quickly that looks nice that I can toss on the web page so friends and family can see it. I will do this about 5 times a year. Anything I learn is likely forgotten between these sessions. My skill improvement from video #2 to video #20 isn't likely to really increase all THAT much.

Just like I'm not using Aperture to do significant post-processing on my photos I'm taking with my point and shoot digital camera. I use iPhoto and play with levels at most. Do I occasionally wish I had more post-processing options? Yes. But not all that often. 99% of the time it's: delete fuzzy photos, rotate all photos upright, batch apply image enhacement, tick on Automatic Ken Burns, pick music and BOOM. Instant Album that doesn't look too horrid. Minimal thought process and effort.

Oh...and I sure as heck hope my kids have a tenth and twentieth birthday so its pretty likely there will be a twentieth time. If for some reason I suddenly have the yen to take video up as a hobby I'll go buy myself FCE.

Vinea

Dear god, I hope Apple isn't listening. In terms of features, usability and price, GarageBand is probably the the best music production app ever. Ever try to use Logic?

I would guess that there is a fairly large number of people out there--amateur musicians who can't justify spending $300 to $500 on a professional app, or invest the time to learn it--who have been terribly underserved by developers. If Apple decided to lobotomize GB the way they did iMovie, I would be very, very disappointed.

Horses for courses.

iMovie 08 will suit some people just fine if they only want to throw a few clips together and stick the end product up on the web. Thats Ok, though you are still limited to what you can produce. IMHO iMovie 06 is good enough for doing just that, and it also has the power and feature to produce something more altogether pleasing to view.

I'd rather iMovie 08 was a "quick" feature of a familiar and powerful product because I believe that time spent on producing a superior video or DVD with a tool such as iMovie 06 pays in the end. I'd like to watch these kind of DVDs in the future and think to myself "now that looks awesome! I'm glad that I put some effort into producing it" rather than "hmmm, it's kinda nice".
If it feels like a chore then why bother at all? The fun is all in the production and end product.

My $0.02

For other folks to enjoy? Like 4 grandparents? Naaaaaaah.

Vinea

No, for my wedding clients who pay me $900 a pop for their iMovie 06/Gee Three plugin-produced wedding day film on DVD....

If that's a serious post, I'd think that you would benefit from a Final Cut Express workflow. iMovie 6 was great (IMO) for simple, quick & dirty movies, but you can get much nicer titling and more editing flexibility with FCE.