Apple stirs controversy with iMovie's '08 overhaul - Page 2

I am one who is extremely displeased with the ruination of iMovie. The skimming thing is cool, the ability to select a region of a clip in the "clips pane" (to use an iMovie 06 term) and be able to simply move that portion in to the timeline (to use ANOTHER iMovie 06 term) is convenient... but that's where the fun ends. All the rest of iMovie 08's "features" result in a hobbled, mere shadow of iMovie's former greatness. Talk about "feature clawback"! Microsoft doesn't appear as bad with their feature clawbacks in Longhorn->Vista.

"But you can STILL use iMovie 06", people have said. While that's true -- and I will -- the fact that Apple has marginalized it within the iLife product matrix should be a concern for everyone who loves what iMovie used to do. Just how long will Apple support the REAL iMovie? Surely, Leopard will support it, but what about 10.6 down the road? How long will it be before iMovie 06 gets "broken"?

otoh, Apple could well bring back features from iMovie 06 into the 08 version. I suspect that, given the uproar, this will probably happen... maybe like the "Simple Finder" option in the Finder, or the clear button at the top-right of every Finder window that shows or hides more file and disk navigation tools?

Problem is, this is ALL a guess on my part. One thing we all do know, however, is that Jobs likes a battened-down, symmetrical product matrix... and iMovie 06's continued popularity will stick out like a sore thumb in his eye. This worries me more that he'll kill it, rather than give me comfort that he'll right iMovie 08's wrongs...

It sounds like Apple knows iMovie 8 is short on features.

They will release iMovie 8.5 with the missing features, I am sure they will!

They didn't "delete" the features; this is a new platform. They simply have not "added" 6 gens of features back into the new platform yet.

Relax.

You missed the point, it not because of the change, it about lack of disclosure. Whether you or I agree, it is pretty obvious Apple at no time said the iMovie 08 (notice the same name as the previous version) did not have the same features of the previous version. Like me, others watch Steve present the product, read a bunch and had the expectation that it was the same as the old iMovie plus all the new changes.

This is a point that I grant you others will make and the lack of disclosure on apple part that the new program was in fact missing features form previous version will be the issue. If they changed more then the icon then I agree with you. This is the point many others are also making, they should have changed the name.

Trust me, I will not join in the suit since I am fairly happy and I do not use imovie that much so I got it for other reasons.

No one has ANY idea as to Apple's plans. Unless you're Steve Jobs, this includes you.

They couldn't do that, the complete core of the application has changed, and has had to change to give the improved speed of the application. If you don't like it, don't use and wait to see if version 2 gives you what you need. Simple really.

When Apple drops these features, more people are simply going to steal FCP or FCE. This is a bad move for business.

For all you whiners who complain that this is "a sad attempt at getting us to upgrade to an intel machine", I ask you, what would be a "happy attempt" ? iLife is ALL about selling new hardware, plain and simple.

Allow me to rephrase then: Who would be happy about losing features in a product upgrade, whether or not he or she intends to upgrade? The point of an update is to evolve an application, not substitute it for something less powerful. Your argument is akin to this: Apple is about to release, let's say, a new shiny iMac (iLife '08) but then Steve Jobs confesses that it runs on a P4 (iMovie '08). "Smaller feature set, but simpler hardware. People like simple," Steve says. I'm currently running old hardware (iLife '06), eager to upgrade but then Steve makes this announcement. Am I a happy camper? Would you be?

Sure iMovie '06 is still out there, but how long will it be supported?


I have FCE and it's tasty. The thing that isn't tasty is running it on a 800MHz G4 iMac... and it's also not tasty for simple projects. iMovie is (was) the champ at simple movies without major effects or editing. Now it litterally is just for YouTube-type projects.


I share your concern. Apple is funnelling us into the FCE crowd, whether we like it or not... And FCE costs considerably more than iMovie. That's not a happy thing.

-Clive

I don't mean to be rude, but how on earth could you have watched Steve introduce the new iMovie, with his story of the developer going and making a NEW method to create movies, with the NEW icon to show that it's a completely NEW programme?

Steve explicitly said that iMovie '08 is completely different from iMovie HD!

Admittedly, I can't see the website making mention of the re-write.

It's considerably more powerful. Find me a video editing suite that can make a movie as fast as iMovie '08 can, with titles and transitions. As for needing new hardware to run the thing, you don't. I'm quite happily running it on a G5 iMac that doesn't meet the system requirements. I doubt it will run that well on a G4, but a G5, it'll run beautifully. You cannot expect aging systems to run that latest software. By that argument I should be cross that my Mac SE doesn't run it!

And allow me to offer an olive branch. Must be cranky this morning. \

I just get frustrated at the gift-horse-ism I sometimes see. iLife at its worst is miles ahead of anything in the Wintel world, and it seems like a lot of people want professional software for free. iLife is a really nice teaser app that's virtually free (by software cost standards.

-Namaste.

You can't sue someone for making a poor piece of software. If you could, our friends up in Washington state would be broke.

you said it for me.

Clive, your dream (and mine) of a prosumer tower died a final, last-nail-in-the-coffin, death when the aluminum iMacs were introduced. Steve said "it's an all in one world". I am convinced that Steve only sees two target markets for Macs: consumers with limited talent but lots of money, and pro content producers. The former group supposedly want appliances and the latter huge configurable towers.

Unfortunately for Steve's vision of what people want, the knowledge and skills of the consumer class are rising daily. This is most noticeable in the desktop market where the name brands are all losing market share to the so-called white boxes, computers assembled by end users or small shops using individually sourced parts. While the initial internet boom helped companies like Dell grow rapidly, the growth of blogs and technical forums has hurt the big manufacturers who tend to use "mystery" motherboards and special OEM Windows discs that rarely work if you've made even the slightest upgrade or repair to a PC.

Oh, I'm not upset that my ancient G4 won't run it. It won't run most things, and I've gotten over it... the thing doesn't even have USB2 for crying out loud. Once I had to transfer everything to my 40 GB iPod via USB because I thought I had lost my Firewire cable. It took half a day.


Olive branch? That was more like a burning bush. Let me repeat what you said to me in analogy form.

Okay, so maybe you're a spoiled kid, but your parents (Apple) like to give you nice stuff. Say they make you a deal and say, "as long as you are our son/daughter (use OS X) we'll give you a Lexus. In the future, if you want to upgrade, we'll let you do it for $5000. Okay, maybe not a Lexus. Let's say an Audi. Still nice, but not top of the line or anything. So your parents offer you an Audi for $5000. Routinely they did this for several years until one year they said, "Son/Daughter, how's about your parents give you a real great treat: Here's a brand shiny new Ford Focus... Only $5000." Tell me you wouldn't be a little pissed off! I'd be like "F-You! You might be the best most generous parents to ever exist but I'm still pissed that our old deal has just gone to s**t."

Do I not have a valid point here?

-Clive

And the part of all this that's not solved by, oh say, sticking with iMovie 6 is precisely what?
Within 2 revs iMovie 8 will be on-par or superior. At least that' my experience.

But I will grant you that I'd be disappointed if the path of progression so quickly left pre-intel users out in the cold. I'll have to see to what degree that's true.

In any event, I certainly found the burning bush reference entertaining. I've never been included in a reference to either Moses or God.

I hope that you are incorrect. Or that Steve will realize (as you state in your second paragraph) that there are some pretty smart consumers out there who like to dabble in pro-type stuff every once in a while.

-Clive

Ok, there are some missing features in the new iMovie. And yes, it did infuriate me. However, as a software developer myself, I understand that when you create a brand new platform sometimes you either forget features or certain features need more reworking in the new model.

Personally, I think the audio envelope (if that is what it is called) is one of those "Crap, we missed that!!" features that everyone (myself included) is complaining about. Hopefully they have the iMovie team working on restoring those features.

I will say that the whole "Use iMovie 6" stuff is complete bullocks. There are some things I can understand not making it (different types of effects and whatnot). Yet there are some that baffle me as to why they didn't make it (changing the length of a transition, audio envelope).

I am hoping for a 7.1 release here soon. I just wish Apple would say to everyone, "Yes, we heard you, and yes we are working on those missing features".

Sometimes a little disclosure goes a long way.

I hate when people defend products that don't have as much functionality as they could by saying they are 'consumer' products. Same for the iMac. The whole revolution of personal computers and the internet has been to blur that distinction. Why should anyone have to pay over $2,000 to run professional applications? All kinds of freelance professionals (one of apple's biggest audiences) just need a capable desktop or laptop to do their work.

And as far as iMovie goes, it was never complicated in the first place. 10 year old kids know how to use it. If they wanted to make it simpler it should have been a separate mode as was mentioned before.

I have always thought one of the best things about switching from a pc to a mac was all the professional quality programs that came with the systems. I really hope they don't try to dumb down their 'nonprofessional' lines; it would really be a shame.

These are very serious issues, especially the lack of compatibility with G4's.
Only Jobs has the balls to pull such stunts on his users, I wonder where he's going with this.

You can change the length of a transition.

[QUOTE=Clive At Five]
...we'll give you a Lexus. In the future, if you want to upgrade, we'll let you do it for $5000. Okay, maybe not a Lexus. Let's say an Audi.
{/QUOTE]

I'd rather have the AUDI, over a posh Toyota.

[QUOTE=suhail]
These are very serious issues, especially the lack of compatibility with G4's.
[QUOTE]

G4 compatibility is not a serious issue, or can I complain that my G3 iBook and Mac SE can't run it?! Why should Apple shunt software programme, for a few people (alright, maybe not that few in the case of G4's) running legacy hardware? Want to use old hardware, make do with old software.

You're missing the point. "A lot of people" want the same level of functionality as the previous iteration of the app.

All of a sudden, now that Apple has sharply dumbed down iMovie, I was "supposed" to be using FCE all along? Suddenly my expectations for iMovie are arrogantly out of line with what I can rightfully expect from "consumer" software, whereas a few weeks ago my expectations were......what?

Is that I was being overly pampered by Apple and now that the free ride is over I should be grateful that they were willing to extend the "extra" functionality for free? And now I should STFU because Apple, in its wisdom, has properly moved that functionality $300 up the line, where, apparently, it belonged all along?

Wasn't iMovie free at one point. I know iPhoto certainly was, as was .Mac (then iTools).

My only point is that we don't still complain about it anymore (actually I do complain about iTools as it was advertised as coming with my iBook). Stop resisting change, and wait until the product does suit your needs again. Don't buy iLife if you don't like it, if you have, take it back stating that it's not as advertised.

Everything's a "plot" and a "ripoff." You'd think you were a Windows crowd. There's iMovie HD, and you can still use that. There are some missing features in the new iMovie. We need plugins, stereo, and a better way of making fine cuts. But if you have enough machine, the new program is a dream. I predict that the next version of Final Cut will make heavy use of features like "skimming," especially to make a selection you can drag to the edit window. It's brilliant.

I welcome the simplification for my extremely basic video editing needs. However, I do not appreciatre that Apple says iMovie 8 will edit mpg2 files, but then won't import them. How the heck am I going to edit them if the program does not accept them. That is bad, 'cause it ain't what the specs say!

And the guy at Apple (800 number) trying to help me was 1. Unaware of the issue, 2. arrogant, 3. would not help me without knowing the serial number of my iMac at home, and 4. would not let me talk to someone else (e.g. escalate the call). Basic POOR customer service, as far as I am concerned.

I am getting seriously concerned about the customer service, and as a stock holder that is a concern about MY money that Apple is being irresponsible with...

What makes me an Apple fan, is that they have most of the time succeeded in combining functionality with ease of use. Now they just want 'ease of use'?

Why do you want to make a movie quickly?!! If you want something on Youtube you just cut out the bad peaces in Quicktime, no? If I make a movie it's for showing my friends, family and to be kept for future use. I WANT to invest time to MAKE it a great movie to watch... I personally have no use for "quick and dirty" movie editing. I wonder who has...

PS. Can them Apple employees please stop making sales pitches? (It's too obvious with number posts equalling 1). Innovation is good as long as you keep it real. Thank you.

So very true. This new "simplified" iLife reeks of a scheme to squeeze a lot of extra dollars out of those who need only a few more capabilities than the average joe... i.e. the prosumer.

iMovie '06 was nearly perfect for all my video editing needs.


I can vouch for that. Okay, well I wasn't 10 at the time, but I used iMovie 1 to make some pretty rockin school projects when I was a Freshman in HS (8 years ago). If an idiot freshman can figure it out, so can a good proportion of grown adults.


Though a disclosure as such would be nice, I wouldn't hold my breath. This is Apple we're talking about. Somehow I doubt we'll regain half of the funcunality we lost in iMovie '08. Some, yes, but certainly not all. This is like the OS X migration for iMovie... That being said, remember that Apple "forgot" to add spring-loaded folders for two dot releases.

-Clive

Most of us have iMovie 6 already installed. When I buy a new product, I want to use it, not the previous version. What the hell did people pay Apple for then?

I have the FCP studio, but there are times I use iMovie for its sheer simplicity. If I need the timeline I'll use FCP or FCE, but if I just have a few clips to throw together, iMovie's clip mode was all I needed. That said, I feel most users, those who probably don't post or read threads here at AI, were probably using the easy clip mode of iMovie 6 and never ventured beyond the simple video project. It looks to me, that iMovie 8 is the next generation easy clip mode and probably clip mode was iMovie 8's inspiration. I don't know, but if you asks me, I think Apple did just what most of it's customer base wanted and needed. Timelines are not very intuitive for most users.

iMovie Help: "You can import video directly into iMovie from most discs or hard disks if your movie files are in one of the following formats: MPEG-4, DV, or .mov files."

That's MPEG-4, not 2. It would surprise me very much if the direct editing of MPEG2 was possible at all, because that's what they call a "muxed" format, with the video and audio multiplexed together. Nothing can edit that. You'll have to a) have the MPEG2 codec for Quicktime installed in your system, and use something like ffmpegX or VideoHub or something to convert it -- to a .mov or an .mp4 file. Then you can import it.

Or you can use Handbrake or a program like that to decrypt the files from a DVD and convert that to MPEG 4. And that can be imported.

Really not sure what the big deal is at this point. All new Macs will come with iLife 08 installed and iMovie HD 6 is a free download so you can have both applications on your system and use whichever you like based on needs.

Just downloaded HD 6 now and it puts it in a seperate folder called (pevious versions).

Not exactly rocket science here.

Let me make it perfectly clear that I have, not once, complained about G4 incompatibility. I will, however, sympathize with other G4 owners. If the G4 is the father of the G5, and the Core is the step-cousin of the G5, the G4 is the step-uncle of the Core chips. Translation: We're not related at all anymore. The G4 is just that old guy that hangs around and everyone pretends doesn't. We'd all be bretheren in a happy field of rosetta bliss if it weren't for the G4. My iMac barely runs Tiger, and I'm confident it won't run Leopard. It sucks because all the new software is basically being written for the new hardware... and my hardware is not even all that old! My Mac is only 5.5 years old and should typically be able to run the latest software, if nothing else, at a slightly slower pace. Hell, I used a Performa 630CD for 8 years before I finally broke down and got an iMac DV SE.


Amen.

-Clive

Why should it? 5.5 years is a very long time in computer terms. The new processors are getting to the stage where they will wear themselves out after 2 years. Mac SE, slow, still works. iBook considerably faster, dying a slow and painful death. Faster hardware doesn't last as long.

Why should programmers support the old hardware when what they want to do with their programme can't be done on the hardware. I'm not making excuses for the lazy programming going on at the moment, mind.


Don't buy it then! Personally, I don't have a camcorder, nor am I particularly gifted with music. I don't buy iLife for iMovie, garageband or iDVD. I do take a lot of photos, and that's why I spend £35 for iLife. I also like sharing my photos with friends, hence iWeb and .Mac.

You have to look at the Target Market. Are more consumers going to enjoy a feature rich iMovie 06 or will more consumers enjoy an scaled back iMovie 08. I tend to think consumers skew towards the easier to use application.


There are few surprises here. Jobs demoed iMovie 08 taking HD (AVCHD to be exact) content and transcoding to iMovie for editing. That takes grunt. It's not always a conspiracy ...it's likely common knowledge to those who look a bit deeper.


Yes YOUR money that Apple has provided a handsome profit to you. Don't think that owning stock makes you understand how a company like Apple runs. Cutting Customer Service is one key way to improve profits so your post is a bit of a paradox. Would you trade a healthy portion of your profti for better Customer Service?

Considering that iMovie '06 is still available as a free download for iLife '08 buyers, it is physically impossible for the new suite to do less. So your argument is completely BS. You have the exact same features as you did before, with the addition of a new method that lets you prepare videos really quickly.

These guys are onto nothing, except their own whiney fat asses. Agreed, if Apple had not made iMovie '06 available my reaction would have been different. But they did make it available.

For us PPC G4 users that already have iMovie 06, there seem to be no price break. We are paying the full price, yet we can not run the new iMovie. Sounds like we are getting ripped. Like others we want access to the entire suite or a reduced price for most of the suite. Fair is Fair.

I would prefer to be able to use the new iMovie instead of a discount, but the discount would not be bad and speak of fairness.

What is my Target Market then? Who's making elegant and simple, yes feature-rich software aimed at me? Not Apple, anymore.


Woah, so not true. Whatever the computer industry trained you to believe, this is the worst. Yes, equipment degrades over time, but two years? You are getting your chain yanked, sir. Just because I use an old Mac doesn't mean I use new hardware. I built a PC just two years ago and it's still quite zippy... plus easier to upgrade than any Mac you'll ever use. That's a different argument, however.


It's not a matter of supporting the hardware when it comes to typical software. If the Mac hadn't been through so many loops in the last 10 years (OS X transition, Intel Transition) our software would still be compatible. Hell, anything written in Carbon can still be run on an intel computer, provided it's not *too* CPU intensive.

If you want to see things another way, consider it like this: Most programs are written to be as powerful as possible without taking up too much CPU power. The point is to allow multitasking and application switching and whatnot. Even an old computer should be able to run an OS and multitask a couple of apps. When I said earlier that my computer struggles with Tiger, I didn't by any means imply that monotasking the OS was killing the computer. I can monotask my OS with the best of them. It's when I start multi-tasking when I start running into problems.

Anyway, I'm not even upset about iMovie '08 not working on a G4. I'm concerned about getting the shaft regarding the feature set.

-Clive

I already payed for iLife 06 and as such iMovie 06, as such Intel users get more functional modules than PPC users, yet we pay the same price. I am sorry but that is a rip.

Giving me a second copy of iMovie 06 is no bargain.

Ohhhhh, noob, you didn't...

Obviously you don't understand. Do you think Apple is going to continue to support and upgrade iMovie 06? If you do, you're dreaming. The free download is an attempt at passifying the angry users who ACTUALLY MAKE USE OF THE CAPABILITIES APPLE CUT FROM THE SOFTWARE.

All this being said, yes I can download and run '06, but how long do you think I can use it before it no longer runs on my hardware... or before camera technology surpasses what the software is capable of? You cannot deny that at some point in time, iMovie '06 will cease to run on new hardware. Nor can you guarantee that newer versions of iMovie will regain the fuctionality that was cut in '08.

Apple may be able to pull the wool over your eyes, and for that, I feel sorry for you. Have fun in your gumdrop and candy cane world. I, on the other hand, refuse to let Apple [take unconsented-to advantage of me via ye ol' corn-hole].

And how old are you? "Whiney fat asses?"

AI, can we "citizen's ban" idiots?

-Clive

imovie should just have 2 views or modes. One would provide a timline based view, with the same bottom stuff, as well as audio control like the one found in old imovie.

The other would provide this new view for people who want to make a really quick movie.