What neocons don't tell you - Page 4

And there is one term for you: Insane. You actually believe the Israelis knew about 9/11 before hand or were complicit in the attacks themselves. No amount of linking nor explanation can dig you out of that whole.

Oh, come on SDW... what can you possibly know. You live in West Chester. You cannot possibly know what is happening in the world.

Just had to intervene to point out how skewed your history is. Jews were persecuted long before the Holocaust.

Any impartial observer will note that the Jewish people have endured millenia of persecution, being expelled outright at various times from many European countries and hated for no reason in large parts of the planet.

That they are a bit overzealous at times in trying to protect themselves is understandable.

And I don't see any "worldwide public sympathy" for them today, though there darn well should be.

What's the matter sammi_jo? Still upset over The History Channel's documentary The 9/11 Conspiracies: Fact or Fiction? Something that the AJ, et. al. crowd called a "hit piece."

I'm sure you've watched it, haven't you? If not it's basically, "The Experts versus the Hatterz!"

I'd suggest you stop pleasuring yourself, and sit down and watch it. And when you get to The Pentagon segment, you might notice the lead structural engineer who lead that part of the investigation, who's name escapes me at the moment , which is odd, seeing as I just spoke to that person last week (as we crossed paths in the hallway) about the very same subject matter!

I bet you hatters are just itching to tear a new one in the NIST WT7 report due out by the end of this year?

By then Loose Change will be in it's 666th edition!

You can now go back to pleasuring yourself.

I am only repeating what the agent on the Israeli talk shows claimed, verbatim. He said "We were there to document the attacks". These guys had video equipment set up, filming the attacks. They worked for a front company, Urban Moving Systems. They were caught with $thousands in cash, maps with the World Trade Center circled in pen, and explosives sniffing dogs reportedly went "beserk". A US government official later claimed on the Carl Cameron show (Fox News) that "Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It's classified information."

So, according to the relevant US authorities, they DO possess "evidence" linking these people to the attacks, but couldn't comment due to security classification. In other words, there *IS* evidence, held by the US Gov't, but we the are not permitted to see it.
And, according to the Israeli agent, he was there with othersd to "document the event". Just those two facts are incriminating enough for anyone with some degree of normal comprehension ability to grasp, and realize that something is "very unkosher".

SDW2001: You can call me insane, or a tinfoil hatter till the cows come home. I don't care. I don't give a shit. Namecalling is thje last resort to those without an agrument, and isn't going to change history.

If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, and waddles like a duck.. then according to SDW, the chances are it's a.... motorcycle? a box of chocolates? ... ...

The goobermint did it, the goobermint did it, ... , the goobermint has sekryts, the goobermint has sekryts, ... , and we hatterz no all about those sekryts, we hatterz no all about those sekryts, ...

Are you incapable of forming a coherent sentence? By that kind of reply, you are doing your side little credit.

Anyway, I did watch the History Channel's piece. Both repeats, as it happens.
It was a very poorly constructed strawman effort, and most viewers, according to the polls, saw through it very quickly. I guess you didn't, but that would be a bit much to expect.
Do you honestly believe that the History Channel are capable of doing a fair presentation of that event? Hearst Publishing the epitome of yellow journalism, were featured self proclaimed "experts" on the show as the most prominent debunkers, shilling for their corporate bosses in a brazen display of cronyism. The History Channel is part of the A&E Television Network which is jointly owned by The Walt Disney Company (37.5%), The Hearst Corporation (37.5%), and NBC Universal (25%). The owners of Popular Mechanics are also the joint owners of the History Channel.

Here we had the equivalent of the Gambino Famly being investigated by the Mafia... kinda like the 9/11 "Commission".

They didnt even do their research well enough to prevent some glaring goofs, a hilarious one being how at one point they cited the "numerous phone calls from the planes" to make a point.. .. and then contradicted themselves when stating that the FBI revealed that the only phone calls actually came from Flight 93.

Have you ever edited videotape? I do it all the time, in conjunction with my work, and in my leisure time as well. Anyone can be made to look like a complete idiot with just a few wellplaced cuts. It is so easy. HAVE A LOOK! (Although in that example... its a case of "never a truer word was spoken in jest".

There's part of your "History" Channel methodology for you.

Have you ever seen the skeptics take on the weasels/officials in a real, live, unedited show, without screened questions, in a no-holds-barred debate about 9/11? Answer: No, and you probably won't, not in the US anyway. It has never happened because the weasel-and-coward brigade wouldnt dare.

Sammi:


Yeah, I'm the one who's desperate here sammi. I'm the one that needs to argue for hours on end that the Israeli's didn't plan or have advance warning of 9/11. Good lord. Take some sort of pill.

Dr. Paul F. Mlakar


That's the person I was referring to, you know a subject matter expert (SME), they're called STRUCTURAL ENGINEERS!

sammi_jo you and your ilk are REALLY prenatal with respect to the SME's!

And no, I haven't seen the hatters take on the SME's, since the hatters don't have any SME's, it's obvious who'd win that one, the SME's that have extensive training and experience in such matters, the STRUCTURAL ENGINEERS, etceteras.

As to editing, doesn't matter as long as the factual data and events were presented, and they were thoroughly presented by the SME's, but then you'd have to be a SME to understand the SME's, now wouldn't you? D'oh!

I honestly, seriously, not joking, would trust the Russians to tell the truth about Iraq more than George W. Bush and his supporters. And even as an American, I'm not alone in that.

Now what I find ridiculous is this sequence:

1. SDW claims EVERY major intel agency supported Bush's claim that there were WMD in Iraq, including Russia, the UK, France, Germany.

2. I point out that that is a false statement, referencing evidence that Russia and the UK were not in full agreement, according to some reports, and I also implied that Germany and France also were not in agreement.

3. Russia lies and has "motivations".

Wait a minute!?

First SDW says Russia agreed that there were WMD. Then I show Putin's quote. Then SDW says Russia lies. So where the hell did SDW get the idea that Russia was in agreement in the first place? Even if Russia lies, isn't it a lie that Russa thought there were WMD?

I guess to split hairs, there's no way of knowing what Russia thought. Wait a minute... I'll repeat that: There's no way of knowing what Russia thought. Unless you're living in SDW bizarro world. SDW claimed that Russia thought there were WMD's. According to whom? Not Russia.

So SDW somehow magically knows (or knows because Bush said so) that Russia 1: Believed that there were WMD and 2) Lied because they said they didn't believe there were WMD...

I seriously think someone flunked "introduction to logic".

Admit it, SDW: You were wrong, misinformed or lying when you said Russian intelligence believed there were WMD.

And no comment on MI6?

To simplify...

Whatever the "motivations" for Russia to say there were no WMD, Russia said there were no WMD. And you claimed they believed there were WMD. I guess you just know what everyone is thinking all the time.

And Bush had no "motivations" to lie? Mmmmmkay...

Putting soldiers in unnecessary, unproductive danger is far more traitorous than stating that the strategy is not working and trying to avoid further military deaths by changing the strategy.

Um... there is an entire nation in the balance and civilians in the US and in Iraq that *might* be necessary in the whole risk-death calculation... but whatever.

Franksergeant and SDW:

Sammi Jo has shown a link where ISRAELI tv shows people admitting they had prior knowledge.

We knew this already because the Dancing Israelis were caught and arrested (and pretty soon released) for filming the burning towers. So really it is a confirmation.

Ok, there are many possible responses and rebuttals but I am wondering why you choose the only one which makes no sense? Is it laziness? Or brainwashing?

An exact equivalence would be:

Person 1: Something called an apple exists

Person 2: no it doesn't

Person 1: here is one look......

Person 2: tin foil hat tin foil hat tin foil hat

I think something must have gone wrong with you guys' software - the 'tinfoil hat' line comes BEFORE someone shows an alleged proof...

I think your programs are stuck on a loop....phone Control and get yourselves wheeled in for servicing...

Very true...the Church had been doing it since the death of Christ.

Somehow, despite JCs death being 'God's plan' the Church still decided to blame the Jews and kill them for millennia...

Follow the source, ALWAYS follow the source!

So someone was somewhere at sometime and SAID something at a later date about "prior knowledge."

The burden of proof is for those who had "prior knowledge" to, you know, PROVE IT! Not with words, but with objective evidence! FACTS! DETAILS! Source(s) of this "prior knowledge." Name some NAMES?

Put up or shut up! \

Provide an OBJECTIVE link (in written text) as to the FACTS of this matter, or STFU!

I'd think all that would be required to refute it is one source of someone somewhere saying there was no prior knowledge. If that's all the evidence that's needed to prove something, that is.

This applies in what may be called 'normal life' - it cannot apply in the area of covert operations.

So, you have a choice.

Either you take the stance that NO covert operations are ever undertaken and kept secret, or, one takes the stance that the Government always 'does right' and all allies of the Government 'never do wrong' and are incapable of it and therefore conclude that no evidence is necessary.

I suspect in yours and SDWs case it is a hybrid transmogrification of the two positions.

In any event, if an agency of any description acts covertly how can one find proof if it has been hidden?

To you this means that nothing has happened and you can scream tin foil hat a lot.

Please - in the name of God - do not ever join a Law Enforcement Agency, I can see it now...

Victim: I've been robbed...

Officer Frank: who by?

Victim: not sure, they had masks on....

Officer Frank: tin foil hat tin foil hat tin foil hat

Claims related to Jews and Israel

Nuff said!

Claims related to Jews and Israel

Nuff said!

Dancing Israelis

Whooping with joy


Is that a or a ?

... you're a RACIST!

There's no evidence that there was any foreknowledge.

http://www.911myths.com/html/dancing_israelis.html

And if you think about it, this is... absurd.

"You stupid fool! We would have got away with being part of this conspiracy, perhaps the most complex and secret in the history of the nation state, if only you hadn't forgotten on national television that you weren't supposed to know about it beforehand!"

"DOH. Well, hey, you can talk! Trained by Mossad, one of the world's most sophisticated deception machines, and you had to get us all going with your high-fives and singing in Arabic in a public place immediately after Shimon and Yehuda crashed the planes!"

"Hebrew. I speak Hebrew."

"My bad. We're evil Jews. I forgot."

Heehehe - always the last (or first) resort......

Pathetic. And all because you could not address the original contention and disprove it with any other means at your disposal.

This thread is really starting to head into the lunatic fringe of the Mad Hatters!



Actually, I think it's already there!

I already provided a link DISPROVING whatever it is you're trying to PROVE! \

I'm only trying to prove that you are not using logic but repeating other's debatable contentions. I could post one hundred counter-links to that myself.

But you would shout tin foil hat again and we'd be back to square one.

You're playing with an empty hand....that's all I'm saying.

You know what? It's really ironic, that those on the left place conservatives into a black or white (a 2-state 0 or 1 binary world-view).

Then when cornered, as you clearly are, retort/resort to formal logic, which itself is a 2-state mathematical expression (excluding the "I don't know quantum state").

That's where formal logic IS flawed, the real world is all about probabilities, PDF's and CDF's.

Purely deterministic thinking is a path to nowhere, chaos will eventually catch you, we are all doomed!

Yes well, you haven't exactly proved that you are the master of logical and rational thought so let's keep going awhile.

This is how we can make a logical construction out of this mess you seem intent on creating:

1) If it can be proved that ANYONE had foreknowledge (other than than the perps) - that is to say, if it can be shown that a possible attack was in the public domain then the equation becomes simpler...

Ie it becomes a question of "why did Israel not know" rather than "did Israel know". Actually the same can be said of the US - "why did they not know?"

So the question is: were there warnings?

Answer: yes:

German Police confirm phoned warning


Condoleeza Rice warned Sept 6th


State Dept Warning Sept 7th


Salman Rushdie prevented from flying Sept 3


And many, many others.

So the question really is: if all this was known then how could Israeli Intel not know.

That is the question you need to address instead of shouting about tinfoil hats.

It is foreseeable that the US did not take these warnings seriously - unlikely though in the light of the above - but you would need to argue that Mossad also ignored them or did not know of them.

If you want to discuss seriously that is. Alternatively you could just post the results of a Google Image search or talk about kittens or small rodents.

I can't play your game and I won't play YOUR game! That is THE point! Prove a negative? Get it?

Like I stated above from a probabilistic POV, I think I've got at least 6 sigma on your hatters, seriously think about it, OK?

What didn't we know and when didn't we know it! \

Exactly - because you are playing YOUR game and that is your inalienable right.

All I'm saying is let's actually put a name to your game. I suggest it is called:

Giving the Government a blank cheque and refusing to question them in any way shape or form whilst deriding anyone who does raise any questions whatsoever

It used to be called "The Emperor's New Clothes" but they had to change it because the small child in that story served the purpose of waking people up.

In this version he is subject to rendition, waterboarded and is never heard of again.

It's likely that US-intelligence as well as israeli intelligence knew of an imminent attack on the WTC, but they probably didn't know how and when and by whom the attack would be committed.

Sure, the US could have evacuated the WTC days before the attack, but it wouldn't have helped much, the terrorists would have changed their plans and attacked another target.

So instead the US tried to track down the possible terrorists but ultimately failed.

The israeli intelligence, that is normally prohibitted to spy on the US, did so nonetheless, but could not share the gathered intelligence with the US without having to admit to spying in the US which they officially don't do and are not allowed to do...

So, you have the Mossad awaiting a likely attack on the WTC and filming it, and after the attack bursting out in joy, because the attack means that the US will side much more with Israel.

No need for deep and evil conspiracies.

Nightcrawler

That's all I've ever said.

The 'conspiracy' accusation is one that has been aimed at me rather than one stemming from me.

Even those facts you mention will be too much for some. Some people cannot psychologically handle the possibility that some things may not be as they appear to be. It unhinges them.

Ok... I read the whole Wikipedia link, and we all know no one ever manipulates Wikipedia...

But I digress... I read the whole Wikipidia link you provided.

Where is the disproof? The entry merely reports what we have already been discussing.

To say your link disproves that the five Israelis filming and dancing on the roof of the "moving company" van had prior knowledge is... wait for it... a lie.

I'd say the interview linked by Sammi Jo shows some pretty damned compelling evidence. Hassan's link is pretty compelling against that evidence. But your Wiki entry said nothing.

Though you make a point, their plan to carry out was the only one they had been trained to do. I don't believe they had any other plan other than the 9-11 targets (there was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's confession of a supposed Los Angeles airliner plot, which was "foiled" in 2002. Evacuating the WTC towers seems too drastic and costly either. What should have been done was beefing up security at all US airports and flights.

For all those who still acknowledge/have faith in the official fairystory, which is the weirdest and most unlikely conspiracy theory of the wackiest kind, but with lots of big media money and time/repetition behind it to shape history with lies and misrepresentations, the lamest and weakest conspiracy yarn of them all, and the ultimate in tinfoil-hattism since the dawn of the Weekly World News, consider:

If the US Government is so blameless in this entire affair, apart from exhibiting "a lack of imagination" (!!!!!!!!!), then why has their conduct been so shifty, secretive, evasive, and untruthful in the aftermath?

I could count off hundreds of incidents of this kind of behavior, which, in the circumstances is weird, illogical and inappropriate. The refusal to open any kind of inquiry until 441 days after the attacks is just the tip of the iceberg. It was only the pressure from the "Jersey Girls" and others which forced the Admin. into opening an "inquiry", the Zelikow "Commission", which was starved of cash and time, and they demonstrably lied and misrepresented the facts on perhaps 65 of the most pertinent aspects of the attacks.

If so blameless, why all the lies, why the obfuscations, why the need to do "hit pieces", why all the behavior that runs 180º in opposition to what would be reasonably expected, if the attacks had been what whey said they were? Furthermore, if 3000 people were killed and $billions of property damage incurred as a result of "government incompetence and lack of imagination", heads would still be rolling now, 6 years later. In contrast, not a single person was fired, or demoted, or carpeted, or reprimanded, or courtmartialed, or tried, fined, jailed. Nothing. In contrast, some of those who exhibited the greatest degree of "lack of imagination" ended up being promoted. Cronyism and mass murder, hand in hand?

We don't even need evidence of explosions in and under the towers, or disappearing planes, or bilocating hijackers.. etc etc. Just look at the conduct of those in charge, and that should convince anyone who displays the remotest degree of sentience, that something is grossly amiss. Then...ask the questions, that is, if one can get behind the multiple concentric rings of security that separate the paranoids in government from the great unwashed they allegedly represent.

There IS a distinct difference between an elected/appointed political figure and a public civil servant, trained to do the forensics, trained to do the analyses, trained to track down credible information, and have a lifetime of experience in these various disciplines.

There is a distinct difference between an elected/appointed political figure and private sector individuals, trained to do the forensics, trained to do the analyses, trained to track down credible information, and have a lifetime of experience in these various disciplines.


And then you have the Hatters who have none of the above!

Forever conjecturing even more spaghetti logic, or pretzel logic if you prefer, shoot down one hatter conjecture, and up pops another hatter twist, to their ever increasing complex maze that HAS NO EXIT!

Then go back and READ it again!

Please provide some credible information (e. g. links with documented facts and NOT hearsay links from blog-o-smear central) as to you endless stream of conjectures. I'm waiting!

Credible = what you would accept.

In these terms, I submit there is no such info in existence.