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iPhone Review Series: iPhone vs. Palm Treo 650 - Page 4

post #121 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

Mel, you're being highly redundant and apparently not paying attention to others yourself. What I've said is that iPhone users are not average. People who are going to find sufficient value in the iPhone to pay the price for the device + monthly service fees are people who are on average going to be more educated and technologically adept.

That aside, installing 3rd party apps on the iPhone is easier than setting the clock on a VCR.


If being fed up with the crap other cell phone and PDA manufacturers (plus Microsoft) are still giving us makes me an "Apple Nazi", then so be it.

I'm paying attention to what people are saying. so far almost everyone has agreed with my position, though it isn't actually my position so much as the position of a bunch of us.

You haven't been saying that iPhone users aren't average (I don't consider myself to be average either). Maybe they are average, if they are willing to be thrilled with a 1st gen product that has left out features that so many have been complaining about in AI's own forums, where, by the way, I haven't ever seen you. You've been very definite that the iPhone is the perfect device, and nothing else has any use compared to that. That simply isn't true. And for those of use who WANT to buy an iPhone, but aren't yet ready, because of OUR perceived deficiencies of the iPhone, well, we see its virtues as well as you do, but don't agree that they totally outweigh the lack it has in meeting our needsyet.

It's simple for you to simply say that you understand that, rather than constantly insisting that we are wrong, which we aren't.

It seems, in reading your posts that you are the one repeating the same thing over and again. I'm only responding to your repeated slogans. I've tried to have you let it go, but you won't.

As programming a VCR has always been pretty damn easy, it's amazing how few have mastered it. And, no, it isn't easier to find the install program, and install it. That's just the perception of yourself, and a few others who want to believe that.

It was pretty damn easy for people to download and install Netscape as well, but hundreds of millions didn't because they thought it was too much bother, and look what happened.
post #122 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It was pretty damn easy for people to download and install Netscape as well, but hundreds of millions didn't because they thought it was too much bother, and look what happened.

One thing that analogy misses the point on is this fact:

Obviously, we are talking about people who want to install 3rd party applications on their phone here because they have done so on a previous phone. That fact alone makes those people more technically inclined. Most "average" cell/smart phone users (if there is such a thing) buy a phone and use whatever is provided on it. They'll probably learn to put music and pictures on it to use with the provided applications, possibly customize the ringtone, set up email, and that's it.

Those phone users are the ones who are analogous to the "average" people who use the web browser which is provided on their computer and don't look for another one. But we aren't talking about those people.

The people who have already gone out of their way to find, install, and learn how to use 3rd party applications on their existing phone definitely have the technical skill to do the same with an iPhone at this point. Heck, I've seen people on the iPhone developer forums that had about 4th grade spelling and grammar skills who were asking questions about the applications they'd installed on their iPhones.
 
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post #123 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by auxio View Post

One thing that analogy misses the point on is this fact:

Obviously, we are talking about people who want to install 3rd party applications on their phone here because they have done so on a previous phone. That fact alone makes those people more technically inclined. Most "average" cell/smart phone users (if there is such a thing) buy a phone and use whatever is provided on it. They'll probably learn to put music and pictures on it to use with the provided applications, possibly customize the ringtone, set up email, and that's it.

Those phone users are the ones who are analogous to the "average" people who use the web browser which is provided on their computer and don't look for another one. But we aren't talking about those people.

The people who have already gone out of their way to find, install, and learn how to use 3rd party applications on their existing phone definitely have the technical skill to do the same with an iPhone at this point. Heck, I've seen people on the iPhone developer forums that had about 4th grade spelling and grammar skills who were asking questions about the applications they'd installed on their iPhones.

I don't really think that's true. My analogy was fine.

What you forgot to mention, was that those very same people who didn't want to bother downloading, and installing, Netscape, bought, and installed, Office, and any number of other programs.

It was the fact that Explorer was already there, and worked well enough, so that when presented with the bother to do otherwise, people simply decided that it wasn't worth the bother, or were actually afraid to to so because of disparaging remarks by MS about it.

The story here parallels that one very well.

The iPhone as it is, is fine for most people, why should they bother finding an installer to install things that Apple itself said could destabilize their phone? That alone will discourage a lot of people from acting.

Then there is the uncertainty of needing something unauthorized to install these unauthorized programs. Software that very clearly makes the point that it is not responsible for any problems you may have with your phone from it.

There is no company backing this up. There is no where you can go if you screw up your phone (I'm not saying it will happen, but the warnings on the software I've seen do say it). That will turn a lot of people off.

Major developers are likely looking at the iPhone as a new platform, but what will they do without an official way of getting their programs on it? My idea for the installer, as I mentioned to you earlier will solve that problem.

We can say that there are, oh, one million iPhone users around now (just a rounded number), then perhaps a small number will go for the current installer, and programs, perhaps 50 thousand, possibly a few more, or less. I don't see a large percentage of people doing this. I'm willing to bet that if you found a person with an iPhone at random, that you don't know, they won't even know about this stuff.

That's why I feel strongly, that we need a good 6 more months to see what direction this is all going, before we can say that it is a success or failure.

I'm being very open minded about it. I just think it's too early to make a pronouncement. If Apple does decide to stop it, which I hope they won't, then that's it. It's over.

If they do come out with their own SDK, which I have a feeling they may, from Job's words, then everything will change, as it will no longer be an underground market.

I think we should wait before we continue arguing.
post #124 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav View Post

No, but didn't you think the review was a bit one-sided?

Extremely so. The review reads like an Apple advertisement, playing down the iPhone's flaws while exagerating--sometimes inventing--the Treo's weaknesses. The reviewer never mentions the fact that the Treo accepts SD cards to boost memory (or if he did, it was after I quit reading it). He criticizes the Treo's inadequate built-in flash memory and claims that it is therefore impractical to use Documents to Go. But many of my Treo's apps reside entirely on the SD card, and I am able to use Documents to Go to edit Excel and Word docs with no thought to available memory. On the whole, I thought the review was amateurish.
post #125 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

... in AI's own forums, where, by the way, I haven't ever seen you.

Excuse me for raining on your tirade.
post #126 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

Excuse me for raining on your tirade.

You present no information, just dumb accusations. You don't understand what's being said by most of the people writing here. Accusing me of having a tirade doesn't prevent it from being obvious that you are just being a fanboy about this.
post #127 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by trevorlsciact View Post

A little, but that guy's comment was over the top. Besides, the iPhone is pretty awesome, so it's ok it the article admits it.

Gee, compare a 4 year old treo 650w to the new iPhone? go to Canada get a new treo 770p... 18 month is a new generation of chips... that makes 2.6 generation apart... Check the ITRS roadmap for semiconductors. The feature, price, density target are so different four years ago for the hardware. Chip shrink and memory stacking hardly exist four years ago. (therefore, the software also going to be impacted... how much is the cost of 1Gb memory key four years ago (if you can find one)? Currently is $14 at corner store).
post #128 of 137
I've been a Mac guy for years. I have an IBM notebook for work, but my data management has always been through my Mac. As a result, I was forced to utilize a mobile device that syncs with a Mac. The only one out there has been the Palm Treo. This is my second experience with a Palm Treo. The first was the 270, which was hands down the cheapest piece of junk I've ever owned! Period! There was even a class action lawsuit successfully lodged against Palm about the 270 because it was so poorly designed. So, it took a lot of faith for me to get another Palm device. I had the 650 for close to 2 years. Does it feel rugged? Yes. The problem is that the exterior features are cheaply made, with paint coming off within months. The iPhone that I now have is far better constructed and is about 1/2 the thickness. You drop it in your pocket and are barely aware of it being there. I concur with the article in that I've too synced and discovered that my entire calendar on my Mac had been duplicated, as in 2 identical entries for every item. A MAJOR pain! The maneuverability between programs on the iPhone waaaaayy supercedes the Palm by a long shot. However, my major thumb up for the iPhone is the actual phone. Palm has notoriously had lousy transmission/reception. The 650 was no exception. The sound quality of the phone is the best I've had with any GSM phone. People I usually talked with immediately picked up that I had a new, improved phone. When I first got the iPhone, I was wondering how the texting would compare with the 650. I'm delighted to say that it has actually improved. Yes, it does take a little getting used to, but the predictive texting is amazing! I can't wait for the rumored HUGE software upgrade that's predicted to come out after Apple launches it's new OS. The Palm 650 served its purpose adequately. But, it's like it was the only restaurant in town and it was a greasy spoon. Toleration, not satisfaction.
post #129 of 137
One more thing. I was reading above how someone was mentioning that the Treo had an SD slot.

A few points to consider:

1. When I bought my 650, the first thing that I did was to buy a 2 gig SD card, only to find out that if you are going to run programs on your 650, they have to be stored on the 650's internal memory (at least all of the programs I attempted to run on mine).

2. When you sync a 650 with your computer, you have no way of knowing what's on the Treo. With the iPhone, you know exactly what's on there because it syncs identically like an iPod through iTunes. What you have checked off is what's on your iPhone.

3. Here's the most important part. Ready? You sure? Really? OK? OK.

The Palm Treo 650 ----- 32 megabytes of internal memory
The iPhone ------------ 8 GIGABYTES of internal memory

Put another way: The Treo - 32 megs. The iPhone - 8,000 megs.

Finally, adding and removing stuff from my iPhone is infinitely easier than was the case with the Treo.
post #130 of 137
Sorry, I'm on a roll.

The iPhone's interface, obviously, is virtual. So, depending upon user feedback, Apple could completely revamp the interface with a software upgrade to fit consumer demands.

Also, iPhone . . . iPod, movies. Treo? Nada.

iPhone . . . True HTML websites. Treo? Nope.

iPhone . . . WiFi. Treo? Don't think so.

iPhone . . . amazing screen. Treo? Not bad, but a lot smaller.

I've had both. I've used both extensively. There is no comparison. The iPhone is far superior. Period.

I will say that if you're life depended on fast web access (stocks) or complex email manipulation (Real Estate), get a Blackberry. It's more suited for that app.

But, for my top five uses: Phone, texting, email, calendar access and contact access, the iPhone is an amazing piece of equipment.
post #131 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg61 View Post

One more thing. I was reading above how someone was mentioning that the Treo had an SD slot.

A few points to consider:

1. When I bought my 650, the first thing that I did was to buy a 2 gig SD card, only to find out that if you are going to run programs on your 650, they have to be stored on the 650's internal memory (at least all of the programs I attempted to run on mine).

2. When you sync a 650 with your computer, you have no way of knowing what's on the Treo. With the iPhone, you know exactly what's on there because it syncs identically like an iPod through iTunes. What you have checked off is what's on your iPhone.

3. Here's the most important part. Ready? You sure? Really? OK? OK.

The Palm Treo 650 ----- 32 megabytes of internal memory
The iPhone ------------ 8 GIGABYTES of internal memory

Put another way: The Treo - 32 megs. The iPhone - 8,000 megs.

Finally, adding and removing stuff from my iPhone is infinitely easier than was the case with the Treo.

The 650 is an old machine, and not worth talking about. My 700p is much better than that one. Oh, and unlike what you said earlier, I've never heard of paint coming off the phone.

Talking about the 650 is like talking about a four year old laptop, and comparing it to one that just came out.

While I would never say that my 700p is the physical equal of the iPhone, or that its interface is as good, it does have its points.

Its been very reliable, works well, has a good screen, lets me run programs from my card, syncs up without a problem using Palms own software, and with Mark-Space, lets you sync to Apple's as well, should you really need that.

The interface, while not as sophisticated as that of the iPhone, is much simpler than a Windows Mobile machine, and uses a very similar icon related design as the iPhone.

The phone is rugged. I've dropped it a number of times with no more damage other than the expected scratches, and minor dents to the corners. The same experience is true for the people I know who have the 700p, or the older models.

I don't like the tiny keyboards this, and other phones, have though. I've tried the keyboard of a friend who has an iPhone, and found it to be marginally better, in vertical mode, but much better in horizontal mode. If Apple ALLOWS us to use it that way for all programs, the keyboard will be much better than most anything else I've tried. We can only hope.

For me, and many other holdouts, it comes down to one or two things. 3G, third party programs (officially supported, hopefully, or a more mature, and extended third party effort of support), and I read here, GPS.

We know Apple will be adding 3G, as Jobs stated they would, so no argument there. As for third party program support, we really don't know where that is going for the moment.

The valiant efforts from some to produce a useful SDK, and the efforts from others as regards to installers is to be commended, and I'm looking at those efforts carefully, as are others. But, at this time, we don't know where those efforts will end up.

It's 50/50. If Apple decides that they can legally prevent it, and do so, then that work will end. If they decide that they can't stop it, then it will continue, slowly.

But, as I suspect, Apple is working on their own SDK, then we will see a large number of well known companies producing programs for the phone. The thousands of Palm, Symbian, and Windows Mobile developers will jump on the phone, and, I would suspect that within 6 months of Apple releasing an SDK, we would see at least a couple hundred well known mobile programs on the phone, along with dozens of others from Mac developers.

I'm hoping for that.

Otherwise, it's really a tossup in functionality. If I need programs that are simply not available on the iPhone, then I can't use it, despite my desire to get it. Same thing with 3G. For the uses I put the internet services to, the great Safari experience is not that important, but the noticeably quicker download times of the 700p are.

This is definitely not a putdown of the iPhone as some think it is. It's just that nothing is perfect for everyone. The point here is that Apple will fix some of the failings, and can fix the others. With most other phones, such as my Treo, it's different. Some of the failings can be fixed by third party sources (such as my on-screen writing program Mobile-Write, which is a better version of the Graffiti program no longer included). But others, such as the tiny keyboard cannot. It's immutable. Apple has that option—if they are so kind enough to listen to us about it, and as it's software controlled, perhaps a third party can enable the function instead, even to providing their own version!

We'll see.
post #132 of 137
I don't use the web function of my iPhone frequently. It's usually to check news or to look up a store address. With that, the 2.5G is not bad. In my estimation, it's about 4 times quicker than dial up. Example: To load the Drudge Report, it's about 30 seconds in 2.5G mode. It is lightening quick in WiFi mode, though. There are plenty of WiFi hotspots around where I'm at so that if I know that I have to spend some serious web time, I'll just hold off and stop in on one of them (I'm in sales).

I agree with the vertical vs. horizontal point about the keyboard. It is easier in horizontal mode to use the iPhone keyboard. And again, Apple can fix this with a simple software upgrade, which I'm sure they'll do in a month or two. I have to tell you, though, with the predictive text, I only have to be about 60% accurate to get the right text. It is quite amazing.

As far as the paint is concerned, I didn't mean that it actually came off in flakes, I simply meant that it chipped easily.

As mentioned before. I've had both. I've used both, extensively. To me, there is no comparison. The iPhone comes out on top.
post #133 of 137
One more thing. I also do agree with you about the Mark Space program "Missing Sync". It is far superior to the Palm Hotsync software. In fact, the reason that I did opt for this in the first place was after I experienced yet another calendar data duplication sync with the Palm software.

If you do have a Treo 650 or 700P and are using a Mac, do yourself a favor and buy this software. It is one of the very few 3rd party apps that I have installed on my Mac from a functionality standpoint. When I did have my 650, the Missing Sync software did eliminate the syncing glitches that I experienced with the Palm OS software.
post #134 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg61 View Post

I don't use the web function of my iPhone frequently. It's usually to check news or to look up a store address. With that, the 2.5G is not bad. In my estimation, it's about 4 times quicker than dial up. Example: To load the Drudge Report, it's about 30 seconds in 2.5G mode. It is lightening quick in WiFi mode, though. There are plenty of WiFi hotspots around where I'm at so that if I know that I have to spend some serious web time, I'll just hold off and stop in on one of them (I'm in sales).

I agree with the vertical vs. horizontal point about the keyboard. It is easier in horizontal mode to use the iPhone keyboard. And again, Apple can fix this with a simple software upgrade, which I'm sure they'll do in a month or two. I have to tell you, though, with the predictive text, I only have to be about 60% accurate to get the right text. It is quite amazing.

As far as the paint is concerned, I didn't mean that it actually came off in flakes, I simply meant that it chipped easily.

As mentioned before. I've had both. I've used both, extensively. To me, there is no comparison. The iPhone comes out on top.

There's no question that the iPhone is a better device overall. It is just lacking in what some of us need right now. I'm hoping that that lack will largely disappear over (a hopefully short) time.
post #135 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg61 View Post

One more thing. I also do agree with you about the Mark Space program "Missing Sync". It is far superior to the Palm Hotsync software. In fact, the reason that I did opt for this in the first place was after I experienced yet another calendar data duplication sync with the Palm software.

If you do have a Treo 650 or 700P and are using a Mac, do yourself a favor and buy this software. It is one of the very few 3rd party apps that I have installed on my Mac from a functionality standpoint. When I did have my 650, the Missing Sync software did eliminate the syncing glitches that I experienced with the Palm OS software.

It's great software, I've been using it since I got my original Samsung i300 Palmphone.
post #136 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg61 View Post

Sorry, I'm on a roll.

The iPhone's interface, obviously, is virtual. So, depending upon user feedback, Apple could completely revamp the interface with a software upgrade to fit consumer demands.

Also, iPhone . . . iPod, movies. Treo? Nada.

iPhone . . . True HTML websites. Treo? Nope.

iPhone . . . WiFi. Treo? Don't think so.

iPhone . . . amazing screen. Treo? Not bad, but a lot smaller.

I've had both. I've used both extensively. There is no comparison. The iPhone is far superior. Period.

I will say that if you're life depended on fast web access (stocks) or complex email manipulation (Real Estate), get a Blackberry. It's more suited for that app.

But, for my top five uses: Phone, texting, email, calendar access and contact access, the iPhone is an amazing piece of equipment.

If you want to bid at auction with your partner, you need IR messaging (Palm). If you need medical software, scientific pH calculation, acid/base calculation, convertion table, periodic table, even wonderful little pinball game (you can use four button to almost feel real) for free! Minibar formulation, molecular weight calculation, graphic tool plus niko cat and dilbert mission statement generator... free!
post #137 of 137
I can't argue with you there the iPhone does need more business apps, but they are slowly releasing some good apps. You can run FileMaker on the iPhone and the iPod touch here http://www.fmtouch.com

In Kindness
Stephen Knight
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