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iPhone Review Series: iPhone vs. Palm Treo 650 - Page 3

post #81 of 137
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Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

Try the Wikipedia:

"1xRTT almost doubles the capacity of IS-95 by adding 64 more traffic channels to the forward link, orthogonal to (in quadrature with) the original set of 64. Although capable of higher data rates, most deployments are limited to a peak of 144 kbit/s."

"EDGE can carry data speeds up to 236.8 kbit/s for 4 timeslots (theoretical maximum is 473.6 kbit/s for 8 timeslots) in packet mode and will therefore meet the International Telecommunications Union's requirement for a 3G network, and has been accepted by the ITU as part of the IMT-2000 family of 3G standards."

I really don't care about Wikipedia. It's such a bunch of misinformation that one can disregard it most of the time. I can only attest to what I now to be true in practice.

What we DO know is that ATT's EDGE works UP TO 125Kbs. That has been reported upon many times already. They don't use the more complex systems. Many places have reported 64Kbs.
post #82 of 137
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All I'm saying is that there are numerous people who would prefer to wait until the phone gets to the level we want. I think it's wrong to say that the phone is there now, when it clearly isn't. It's a first gen product.

Perfectly reasonable. I agree the iPhone does not offer what all previous smartphone users are used to. I can agree with someone waiting until it does offer what they want.

I imagine Apple will wait for big moments to introduce new functionality. Apple will likely offer new functions around the launch of Leopard and when the phone goes to Europe which will help reenergize sales.
post #83 of 137
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Perhaps one day Apple will release the SDK and make everything legitimate. At which point you restore your phone software and install the same apps again legitimately. What's the big deal?

I don't see any guarantee these hacks are bug or worry free. If something adversely effects the phone who do you contact to help fix it?

I just don't even want to deal with it.
post #84 of 137
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Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

I didn't write AT&T's "Fine EDGE" was faster than 3G. I wrote that the speed of EDGE on the iPhone was perfectly adequate for most browsing, that raw download measures are not necessarily accurate measures of browsing speed, and that the iPhone's browsing speed was enhanced by its fast microprocessor. I should know. In recent years I've burned through a Treo 650, 700p, 750 and HTC 8525, all accessorized with essential reserve batteries.

If you are willing to put up with a cell phone that downloads even at gigabit/second speed but comes with a cr@p web browser, cr@p html e-mail and cr@p UI, then fine. Many of us are not.

I didn't say say you said it was faster than 3G. I said that you think its fast enough. I also said that if you find those much slower than my Sprints 3G to be fine, then ok for you, but those of us with those much faster services are not willing to move several steps back as you are willing to do.

I already said that Safari is better than what I have on my Treo 700p, but that the really slow (compared to mine) service is too much to bear.
post #85 of 137
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Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Don't you guys pay attention to what's written?

I know it's been two months. I've said that when things change, perhaps 6 months to a year from now, I will be buying the iPhone.

But, what we are talking about is right now, not some mythical time in the future.

Right now, the iPhone is severely limited to those of us who use actual smartphones.

And you haven't read my posts very clearly either. My original argument was with the fact that people were stating that you can't run 3rd party applications with the iPhone, when you very well can (with not much effort than it takes to figure out how to do it on other phones). Whether the future of this is driven by Apple or others is irrelevant... it's happening right now.

While yes, the Treo has the advantage in having more applications (due to being out on the market much longer), with Mac OS and several system frameworks on the iPhone, it won't take long for many existing Mac applications to be ported to the iPhone. That I can bet on.

So yes, while I agree that the Treo is a better option for people who have some must have 3rd party applications on it, I consider the iPhone to be an overall better device and is much more future-proof than the Treo. And, having no history with either, if I had to choose a phone now that I would keep for the next 3 years or so, I would choose the iPhone.
 
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post #86 of 137
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Originally Posted by auxio View Post

Which is why I see cellular unlocking companies in most major shopping centers here. I'd think the police would shut them down much sooner than they'd come breaking down my door.

I don't know how they handle those things n Canada, but it's not so simple here.

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There's a GUI program with instructions for installing it now. Those instructions you posted are out of date. Like I said, this is all new, so it's just a matter of time.

Where is that?

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Engadget already reported that they'd seen it. So I'm pretty sure it exists.

Good. I have nothing against this myself. But, it's still not for sale, and we don't know if it ever will be yet (though, it might "leak" out for free).
post #87 of 137
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Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

And Pocket IE is unusable for most of the WWW. There is no room for argument.

I don't know about that, but I can get every website I go to with my Treo.
post #88 of 137
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Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I don't see any guarantee these hacks are bug or worry free. If something adversely effects the phone who do you contact to help fix it?

The only difference between these apps and commercially released apps is the option to sue if something goes wrong.

I'd argue that the community surrounding these apps and 3rd party iPhone development in general is much more responsive than most commercial software customer support.
 
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post #89 of 137
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Originally Posted by auxio View Post

I never complained about Treo's lapses. I just think the iPhone is a better device. My main focus isn't necessarily the phone functionality, but also in an easy-to-use music player, camera, photo browser, etc.

Ovrall, the iPhone IS a better device. I'm not saying it isn't. Though Apple has made some controversal choices. The caera is not that great, according to all reports I've seen. Why can't it record video?, etc.

So, it's still behind in some areas, such as GPS, etc.

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I would gladly sign up for a monthly service with reasonable data fees based on how much I use the phone if I could (the key word there is having a choice based on my usage). Unfortunately, no one has such a service here in Canada.

As I've said, that's the fault with the Canadian cell industry and governmental oversight, not the providers here in the US.

If, and when it becomes available there, hopefully, Apple will be able to convince the provider they go with, to lower those costs, as here at least, the iPhone must have a data plan.

Again, remember you are talking from the perspective of someone who has the phone where the phone is not being sold, and has no official plan or provider. Therefore, your problems aren't really relevant to the rest of us.

Where did you buy the phone, and how have you gotten out of ATT's plan, assuming you did?

Everything about the Turbo Sim says that you need the ATT SIM (functioning) to use it.
post #90 of 137
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Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Where is that?

From the nullriver webpage:

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New GUI Installer (Works with firmware 1.0, 1.0.1 and 1.0.2): Just released, we now have a GUI installer for Mac OS X. Download v2.4 and try it out. Please report any problems.
 
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post #91 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I really don't care about Wikipedia. It's such a bunch of misinformation that one can disregard it most of the time. I can only attest to what I now to be true in practice.

What we DO know is that ATT's EDGE works UP TO 125Kbs. That has been reported upon many times already. They don't use the more complex systems. Many places have reported 64Kbs.

What YOU don't know is that EDGE speed depends on the number of time slots used by the device as indicated by its service "class" and as supported by the carrier in any given location and at any given time. You're making claims about the technology based on ignorance. I have personally seen raw download speeds of approx. 130 Kbps for the iPhone, while others have reported speeds approaching 200 Kbps. In real world usage, its speed is perfectly adequate most of the time for most web sites, and the fidelity and usability of Mobile Safari is outstanding. I could give a rat's @ss about the higher speed of my HTC 8525, when its web browser is so stunningly awful. (Notice I didn't even mention the lousy battery life, myriad of buttons, mushy keyboard, lousy e-mail clients, etc. etc. etc. for the HTC.)
post #92 of 137
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Originally Posted by melgross View Post

As I've said, that's the fault with the Canadian cell industry and governmental oversight, not the providers here in the US.

I never had any argument about data plans. I just wanted people to know that, when comparing costs, the iPhone has more options than the AT&T plans. Even without unlocking the SIM, you can still choose other AT&T plans.
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Where did you buy the phone, and how have you gotten out of ATT's plan, assuming you did?

ebay and iActivator
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Everything about the Turbo Sim says that you need the ATT SIM (functioning) to use it.

Nope, you just need the SIM which comes with the phone (activated or not). The TurboSIM just copies the SIM identification information (ie. the company identification number). Once done, you can combine it with any other SIM, and the phone thinks that it's using an AT&T SIM.
 
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post #93 of 137
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Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

It simply is true. For example, go to sprint.com and you'll find: 450 minutes @ $39.99/month and unlimited data for $39.99/month. iPhone from AT&T is $59.99/month for 450 roll-over minutes, unlimited data and 200 SMS. Go to AT&T, price any other smart phone, and you'll find a comparable voice + data plan for $79.99/month. All prices are before taxes and fees, which add even more to the iPhone price advantage.

You're wrong and I actually have a Sprint plan with my Treo. When you sign up for a $39.99 plan, unlimited data is added for $15, for a total of $54.99. The $39 data plan is for a separate device like a wireless card. Please stop your misinformation campaign.
post #94 of 137
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Originally Posted by bg_nyc View Post

Seems like this article is pure iPhone propoganda, but one thing it does do is let it be known clearly that the Palm needs to get its act together. Mac users are growing every day, and to continue to produce smartphones that does not play nicely with Mac is a pretty big mistake.

I have a Treo 650 which I love and rely on heavily b/c it syncs with my Outlook at work and allows me to have my calendar with me at all times. And I happen to love the touch screen and the interface. Its quite simple, especially if you've used Palm/Handspring in the past. But that does not mean that i will stay with Palm forever. If the iPhone reduced a bit in price and had really reliable and easy calendar/contact Outlook syncing with my work PC while still allowing me to sync iTunes with my Powerbook G4, I would enthusiastically put my Treo on eBay.

I think iPhone raised the bar for all smartphones, and I look forward to Palm's first real response to the iPhone.

I have not experienced any problems syncing the iphone with Outlook! So I really don't understand why everyone says it is a problem??
post #95 of 137
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Originally Posted by auxio View Post

And you haven't read my posts very clearly either. My original argument was with the fact that people were stating that you can't run 3rd party applications with the iPhone, when you very well can (with not much effort than it takes to figure out how to do it on other phones). Whether the future of this is driven by Apple or others is irrelevant... it's happening right now.

While yes, the Treo has the advantage in having more applications (due to being out on the market much longer), with Mac OS and several system frameworks on the iPhone, it won't take long for many existing Mac applications to be ported to the iPhone. That I can bet on.

So yes, while I agree that the Treo is a better option for people who have some must have 3rd party applications on it, I consider the iPhone to be an overall better device and is much more future-proof than the Treo. And, having no history with either, if I had to choose a phone now that I would keep for the next 3 years or so, I would choose the iPhone.

Well, at least you've admitted that you haven't read my posts carefully.

But, I have read yours carefully.

I'm not denying that you can install third party programs. But, it's not as easy as you say it is.

Easy would be downloading a program you bought, or shareware, or freeware, and just installing it through itunes, or just by double clicking on the install icon for the program. Or perhaps just dragging it to the iphone's icon on the monitor screen.

That would be easy. Right now, it's not easy. You do what some others do, you assume that because it's easy for us, it's easy for everyone else. Not so!

Finding, and downloading, a third party installer, which requires several steps for its own install, and then installing through that, even though that is easy, is not easy for most people. Most people will shy away from that.

What is needed is a way to install programs without a third party installer. There is no way to do that now.

I've been speaking to some friends who do this type of programming. I've been trying to convince them to come up with a program such as VISE that they can sell to the program companies that can be a built-in installer for those programs. That would solve the problem.

They are interested, but aren't so sure that Apple won't do something to prevent it. If they feel more secure about that, they will look into it. Otherwise, it's a lot of work for nothing.

I doubt that we'll see too many Mac programs being ported over.
There are several reasons for that. One, is the reason Jobs, and some programmers gave. The interface is entirely different. Mac programs require the Mac Finder. There is nothing even close on the iPhone. That would have to be completely rewritten from scratch. Second is that the Mac these days uses vastly more powerful cpus than the iPhone has. As even WiFi speeds are considered to be severely limited by the cpu's speed on the iPhone, many programs would be totally brought to their knees. There is also not enough memory for many of these programs, particularly if the phone will be used for music and video.

There is also no real fast GPu aboard. It's good for what it;s being used for.

Overall, what I've read is that some programs might be broken up, and parts released for the phone, assuming that an adequate SDK is available. It's doubtful that mainline developers would use the tools now available.
post #96 of 137
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Originally Posted by auxio View Post

From the nullriver webpage:

---

New GUI Installer (Works with firmware 1.0, 1.0.1 and 1.0.2): Just released, we now have a GUI installer for Mac OS X. Download v2.4 and try it out. Please report any problems.

I already pointed to that. It's a bit more complex than a simple GUI though. And installation is not just a couple of steps either as per the instructions I linked to shows.
post #97 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

What YOU don't know is that EDGE speed depends on the number of time slots used by the device as indicated by its service "class" and as supported by the carrier in any given location and at any given time. You're making claims about the technology based on ignorance. I have personally seen raw download speeds of approx. 130 Kbps for the iPhone, while others have reported speeds approaching 200 Kbps. In real world usage, its speed is perfectly adequate most of the time for most web sites, and the fidelity and usability of Mobile Safari is outstanding. I could give a rat's @ss about the higher speed of my HTC 8525, when its web browser is so stunningly awful. (Notice I didn't even mention the lousy battery life, myriad of buttons, mushy keyboard, lousy e-mail clients, etc. etc. etc. for the HTC.)

foo, give up.

I know at least as much as you do. I also know that the "reported" speeds of over 125Kbs, or so, are doubted according to what is known about ATT's service. They just upgraded from 64 Kbs to 125 before the iPhone came out. There is no way that 200Kbs speeds can be maintained through them.

I keep on saying that Safari is fine. That's enough about it already. This is getting boring.
post #98 of 137
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Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

The iPhone which I would at least consider along with many others is a smart phone and in general to date has not made a scratch whens to pda and palm use in the corporate world.

Intel has certainly been the spark over the last year for Apple.

How can you say Apple supports an open Standard? You an run Windows OS on any harware you can only run Mac OS if you by a system from Apple. Thats about as closed as you can get.

Id rather have Apple charger double for their OS and allow me to run it on any hardware I choose, not one they feel I should be using or one that Steve Jobs feels meets my needs.

Many that I know run dual boot Windows on their Macs because you need it for business related software even more so in the near future if anyone uses Excel and needs VBA support for macros.

Also unless you are a teacher and are willing to dump a great deal of money for photo editing the only option on a mac that runs univeral binary is CS3, you can get PSP or Adobe Photoshop Elements for 89.00 for the PC which works rather well. Chat clients Yahoo, ICQ, AIM Skype are all far stronger option wise on the PC verions than Mac. For business you simply can not get away with just using Os X becasue it has such a low market share base its not worth it for third party companies to put the effort into writing software.

Another excellent example of this is I really like using Keynote compared to Powerpoint and what I can't believe is that Apple has not yet introduced a Keynote veiwer while Powerpoint has had one forever. To me that is a perfect example of Apple only allowing you to communicate with other apple user and not with the rest of the world. That is unless you export your presentation as a quicktime movie.

In the Windows world you just do what you want too and it works, when you use a Mac the reason you become so creative is your always having to fine a work around to get your work out to share with the other 96% of the world.

Member melgross make the same point regarding the iPhone, while most users are Windows users man iPhone related options only work well if you own a Mac.

For some odd reason Steve Jobs still fails to understand when it comes to the computing world he has never owned more than 6-7% of that population and in the past that has been as little as 2-3%.

While the Apple koolaid drinkers think he is the best thing since slice bread I honestly wish he would step aside and allow someone more open minded to take over.

While I sound anit Apple I would actually love for them to get about 50% market share when ti comes to their OS so we can actually get creative and for once revolutionary apps that actually work cross platform.

True competition is really the only way for the end user to win in all this.

You are going overboard in the opposite direction. The truth is somewhere in between.
post #99 of 137
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Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I already pointed to that. It's a bit more complex than a simple GUI though. And installation is not just a couple of steps either as per the instructions I linked to shows.

Actually, once you get the third-party installer installed on the iPhone (which is itself very easy), installing new applications on the iPhone is even easier than for any other smart phone. How can that be, when the iPhone is so new and only at version 1.0? It's because applications are installed directly over the Internet to the iPhone by making menu selections on the iPhone. No "sideloading" via a tethered Windows (or Mac) computer is involved at all. Installation of a new application is basically one-tap.

Check out the simple instructions posted here:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/piece-of-...red-291184.php
post #100 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Well, at least you've admitted that you haven't read my posts carefully.

I meant that if you assume I haven't read your posts clearly, then I assume you have read mine the same way.

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I'm not denying that you can install third party programs. But, it's not as easy as you say it is.

Easy would be downloading a program you bought, or shareware, or freeware, and just installing it through itunes, or just by double clicking on the install icon for the program. Or perhaps just dragging it to the iphone's icon on the monitor screen.

Actually, that nullriver installer you pointed out is even easier than that. Once you have it installed on your iPhone (the trickiest part), it generates a list of available iPhone software right on the iPhone itself using it's internet connection. Then you select a package to install, press the install button, and it's downloaded to your phone (again using it's internet connection) and installed. No computer, no iTunes required. Doesn't get much easier than that.

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I doubt that we'll see too many Mac programs being ported over.
There are several reasons for that. One, is the reason Jobs, and some programmers gave. The interface is entirely different. Mac programs require the Mac Finder. There is nothing even close on the iPhone.

Actually, there is a version of Finder for the iPhone. It's actually used by other programs for their file chooser. Though I admit that the interface is a bit clumsy.

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Second is that the Mac these days uses vastly more powerful cpus than the iPhone has. As even WiFi speeds are considered to be severely limited by the cpu's speed on the iPhone, many programs would be totally brought to their knees. There is also not enough memory for many of these programs, particularly if the phone will be used for music and video.

Well, MAME and an NES emulator have already been ported with relative ease. Though the developers are now spending time optimizing them for the phone. Obviously you're not going to get first person shooters (aside from maybe Doom), but there'll be plenty of puzzle games which come along shortly (a good one already is Lights Out).
 
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post #101 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I didn't say say you said it was faster than 3G. I said that you think its fast enough. I also said that if you find those much slower than my Sprints 3G to be fine, then ok for you, but those of us with those much faster services are not willing to move several steps back as you are willing to do.

I already said that Safari is better than what I have on my Treo 700p, but that the really slow (compared to mine) service is too much to bear.

If you can stomach such awful web page and html e-mail rendering and are able to fumble through the web sites you need to use with a Treo, then by all means, suck up all the bytes you can at 3G speed. I'm happier investing a little more time into the download, not to have the advanced technologies of WM/PalmOS/Symbian getting in the way.
post #102 of 137
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Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

Actually, once you get the third-party installer installed on the iPhone (which is itself very easy), installing new applications on the iPhone is even easier than for any other smart phone. How can that be, when the iPhone is so new and only at version 1.0? It's because applications are installed directly over the Internet to the iPhone by making menu selections on the iPhone. No "sideloading" via a tethered Windows (or Mac) computer is involved at all. Installation of a new application is basically one-click.

Check out the simple instructions posted here:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/piece-of-...red-291184.php

You are so slow. I posted that a while back. And it is NOT going to be easy for most people. I, and many others, also want our programs to have a backup on our HDD's, or backup device should something happen to them. So far, I don't see a way this can work with the direct process. We still have to go and download those programs for backup. If the program is free, or shareware, it won't matter much, but if you have programs to buy, it's different. You can't simply keep downloading the files.
post #103 of 137
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Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

If you can stomach such awful web page and html e-mail rendering and are able to fumble through the web sites you need to use with a Treo, then by all means, suck up all the bytes you can at 3G speed.

If you are that incompetent that you find the browser so difficult, then I can understand your problem.

If not, then you are making a big deal over nothing. Yes. The browser isn't wonderful, but it works just fine.

I don't spend hours on it. I use it the way most people use phone browsers. when I need information quickly, I go to it. then I close it.

Safari is more enjoyable to be sure, as I stated over and over, though you don't seem to read that when I post it.

But, for me, and for many others, the slow speeds trump the interface.

If you don't find that to be so, then fine for you. Can you let it go now?
post #104 of 137
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Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You are so slow. I posted that a while back. And it is NOT going to be easy for most people.

Excuse me for not hanging on your every word! Did you already describe how easy it is to install third party apps on the iPhone? If even that is too difficult for most people (or for you), then consider the iPhone isn't for most people. Most people don't need a smart phone, especially if it's going to cost them another $20/day over what they've been paying for a cell phone. As for maintaining backups of third party software on one's personal computer, perhaps one day the vision behind Google will bite you.
post #105 of 137
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The iPhone which I would at least consider along with many others is a smart phone and in general to date has not made a scratch whens to pda and palm use in the corporate world.

True because Apple did not design the iPhone specifically for corporate like the Black Berry. They designed it for consumers
.
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Intel has certainly been the spark over the last year for Apple.

Yes Intel has helped. But it was one of many good choices made by Apple.

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How can you say Apple supports an open Standard? You an run Windows OS on any harware you can only run Mac OS if you by a system from Apple. Thats about as closed as you can get.

Thats a business model not an open standard. There is also nothing open about Windows.

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Also unless you are a teacher and are willing to dump a great deal of money for photo editing the only option on a mac that runs univeral binary is CS3, you can get PSP or Adobe Photoshop Element

Anyone who really needs to use Photoshop is not thinking of Elements, Mac or PC.

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In the Windows world you just do what you want too and it works, when you use a Mac the reason you become so creative is your always having to fine a work around to get your work out to share with the other 96% of the world.

This is generally only true if you are working with formats developed by MS and only work on Windows.

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For some odd reason Steve Jobs still fails to understand when it comes to the computing world he has never owned more than 6-7% of that population and in the past that has been as little as 2-3%.

I think he knows this. Marketshare does not account for profit, Apple is worth $115 billion.

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While I sound anit Apple I would actually love for them to get about 50% market share when ti comes to their OS so we can actually get creative and for once revolutionary apps that actually work cross platform.

Which creative and revolutionary apps is the Mac missing that 50% marketshare would bring?

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True competition is really the only way for the end user to win in all this.

Does this mean we have false competition right now?
post #106 of 137
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Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

Excuse me for not hanging on your every word! Did you already describe how easy it is to install third party apps on the iPhone? If even that is too difficult for most people (or for you), then consider the iPhone isn't for most people. Most people don't need a smart phone, especially if it's going to cost them another $20/day over what they've been paying for a cell phone. As for maintaining backups of third party software on one's personal computer, perhaps one day the vision behind Google will bite you.

Oh lord!

Do you just read the posts between us, or do you read all of them? If you read all of them, you would see that there is already a statement about that. Several, in fact, from me.

One more time then.

It isn't too difficult for you or me, as I said to auxio. But, the general public won't agree with that. Installing the installer will be too much for them. Just having to look for it will be too much for them.

If you read one of my last posts to auxio, you will see that I'm interested in finding a better solution than that, and that it MIGHT come. I might even be interested in bankrolling part of it.

Most people who want an iPhone will be just as happy with it as they should be, considering that they won't be interested in other programs, and I have no problem with that.

But, there are is a large number of people who use true smartphones, and remember that Jobs himself said that this is NOT a smartphone (yet!).

That group is waiting to see what will happen next.

You can poo poo all you want, but we have our own concerns which are just as legitimate as yours.

If Apple announced 3G and third party apps off the bat, I would already have one, as would my wife.

But, I'm willing to wait.

Google. Just like buying videos from them, yes?
post #107 of 137
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I'd argue that the community surrounding these apps and 3rd party iPhone development in general is much more responsive than most commercial software customer support.

Not only fixing bugs within the app itself but what if some errant app severely negatively effects critical software within the phone. There is little the community could do to fix that. I'm sure they have the best intensions, but I wouldn't risk it.
post #108 of 137
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Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Oh lord!

Do you just read the posts between us, or do you read all of them? If you read all of them, you would see that there is already a statement about that. Several, in fact, from me.

Indeed, you have often posted how difficult it is to install 3rd party apps on the iPhone. Who could miss that? I thought you might have provided some further insight into how easy it is to hack the iPhone. Meanwhile, the process gets easier and easier*. Many people who use smart phones want to tweak the devices in a myriad of ways that the general public might find too complex. In fact the lack of tweakability has been one of the chief complaints against the iPhone, right? Well, now there's TapApp. Perhaps it's too easy? Thank God!

*
http://www.tuaw.com/2007/08/28/insta...thout-hacking/
post #109 of 137
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Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Not only fixing bugs within the app itself but what if some errant app severely negatively effects critical software within the phone. There is little the community could do to fix that. I'm sure they have the best intensions, but I wouldn't risk it.

Like that hasn't been a problem with Windows Mobile and Treo devices.
post #110 of 137
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Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

Indeed, you have often posted how difficult it is to install 3rd party apps on the iPhone. Who could miss that? I thought you might have provided some further insight into how easy it is to hack the iPhone. Meanwhile, the process gets easier and easier*. Many people who use smart phones want to tweak the devices in a myriad of ways that the general public might find too complex. In fact the lack of tweakability has been one of the chief complaints against the iPhone, right? Well, now there's TapApp. Perhaps it's too easy? Thank God!

*
http://www.tuaw.com/2007/08/28/insta...thout-hacking/

You really aren't paying attention. You are being very closed to this. Either you don't understand the average phone user, r don't care.

I've never said that this is difficult per se, just that the average phone user will find it to be so.

You must be very young, and have never heard of the joke about the blinking 12:00 o'clock VCR program setting.

It isn't easy to hack into the iPhone, but there are some pretty smart, and dedicated people out there, and kudo's to them.

My HOPE has been that people will get third party programs on the iPhone, and I don't mind the unlocking of the phone either, because it is legal to do so, and Jobs said that Aple won't prevent it.

All I'm saying is that there are some features that some of us want that aren't there yet.

You are making a big deal about nothing.

Either that, or you are an Apple Nazi.
post #111 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav View Post

I question the journalistic integrity of this "review." I could only conclude that from the start you set out to disparage the Treo.<snip>
I was hoping for a real world study of someone who really put these two phones through a real world test, but this wasn't it.

I haven't read all the comments yet, but certainly the writer was sold on the iPhone.

Unfortunately - it's hard to tell whether he was objective (and sold!), or was predisposed to liking the iPhone. It could be either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

Yes, I thought an iPhone-Treo 650 comparison would be a "strawman" argument. Of course the Treo will come out looking bad. At least AI has compared the iPhone to the RIM 8700. Nokia owners seem so hot on the N95, that a comparison to it would be worthwhile, too.

I'd like an N95 comparison.

More than that - much of this comparison was talking about what worked best for a Mac user, and I'd expect the iPhone to win that. A comparison of the Treo on Windows against the iPhone on Windows would have to be significantly different, and I'd find it very interesting.
post #112 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't mind the unlocking of the phone either, because it is legal to do so, and Jobs said that Aple won't prevent it.

Hi Mel
Did Jobs say that? I know he said it about the AppleTV, but haven't heard about the iPhone.
Thanks
post #113 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

One very clear missing feature of the iPhone is its inability to be used as a tethered Internet access point, also known as a Dial Up Networking service after Windows' DUN control panel. That means you can't connect an iPhone to your laptop and use its mobile data service to browse the web or check email. This appears to be a limitation imposed by AT&T, which doesn't seem to allow this for any of its phones.

I can understand AT&T don't want this. They offer a cheap unlimited data plan, but the iPhone is limited in the data that will be used. If you could plug in your home computer or laptop, there'd be some people who would use 10-50 times the average iPhone user amounts.

That said, I think it's an oversight.
Perhaps Apple should offer laptop email via the iPhone (protected to make AT&T happy)? Or AT&T could offer a data package for your laptop (via the iPhone) - so that you can browse the web if you want.
post #114 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

Hi Mel
Did Jobs say that? I know he said it about the AppleTV, but haven't heard about the iPhone.
Thanks

Yup. He was asked about that, and he said that Apple won't prevent it.

With the ATv, he said that once people buy them, they're theirs, and they can do what they want with them.
post #115 of 137
Wow. I had no idea that Palm users are so touchy about their favorite smartphones. If you really want a Treo, go for it! Nobody is stopping you. Besides, Sprint could really use the business right now after getting punished by switchers moving to the iPhone on AT&T. Not that AT&T is that great , mind you.

On the other hand, I think this is a fine article by someone who really understands the nuances between these devices. It is obvious that Daniel has used both of these phones extensively, and has thought about it enough to put together an insightful analysis. I actually read all of the linked articles and references, and found them to be interesting in their own right. Did everyone else? I didn't think so.

Argue and quibble about tit-for-tat features and pricing, but it's obvious in the grand scheme of things that the iPhone is a game changer, and the Treo is so status quo. Don't get me wrong, I think Palm makes some okay products, but they're in a race to the bottom right now. I'll leave it up to everyone else who hasn't used an iPhone to argue why they don't think so. Hint: How many times did you read about people lining up to buy a Treo-(insert model here...)?
post #116 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by TPG View Post

Wow. I had no idea that Palm users are so touchy about their favorite smartphones. If you really want a Treo, go for it! Nobody is stopping you. Besides, Sprint could really use the business right now after getting punished by switchers moving to the iPhone on AT&T. Not that AT&T is that great , mind you.

On the other hand, I think this is a fine article by someone who really understands the nuances between these devices. It is obvious that Daniel has used both of these phones extensively, and has thought about it enough to put together an insightful analysis. I actually read all of the linked articles and references, and found them to be interesting in their own right. Did everyone else? I didn't think so.

Argue and quibble about tit-for-tat features and pricing, but it's obvious in the grand scheme of things that the iPhone is a game changer, and the Treo is so status quo. Don't get me wrong, I think Palm makes some okay products, but they're in a race to the bottom right now. I'll leave it up to everyone else who hasn't used an iPhone to argue why they don't think so. Hint: How many times did you read about people lining up to buy a Treo-(insert model here...)?

A very funny post, full of backhanded compliments. But, you missed part of what we were saying.
post #117 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

What open source DRM do you suggest Apple should use?

Begging the question. You can't refute the fact that both MS and Apple use closed formats for their media, and in Apple's case, it is one of their bigger products.



Quote:
Too numerous to count them all. But example: H.264 vs VC-1, AAC vs WMA, OpenGL vs Direct X, Unix vs NT, IMAP vs Exchange

For AAC vs. WMA see above. VC-1 is an open codec just like H.264. I'll give you direct X, but orginally NT was just as nearly as open as Unix, being able to run even on PPC systems, with the exception of course of Apples. IMAP is a mail protocol, whereas Exchange is an enterprise solution not quite apples to apples (no pun intended )


Quote:
I didn't specifically say Apple good - MS bad. But it is simply fact that Apple supports more open standards while MS builds its own standards to lock customers into its products.

I don't quite see it as that way. And the way things are going, as Apple and it's CEO become more entrenched in the media business, I see things becoming more closed off. Just look at the iPhone, I know it has nothing to do with standards, but it's a perfect example. You want an iPhone, as of right now you're stuck with AT&T. I know it's just business, and there's perfect logic on their end, but I personally want to have products with as much flexibility as possible. I Like Apple, but I will continue to argue for greater freedom with their products.
post #118 of 137
Quote:
What open source DRM do you suggest Apple should use?

That was a trick question open source DRM would be a contradition.

Quote:
Begging the question. You can't refute the fact that both MS and Apple use closed formats for their media, and in Apple's case, it is one of their bigger products.

Yes DRM is closed because its job is to be closed.

Quote:
For AAC vs. WMA see above

I don't understand the similarity Apple does not own AAC.

Quote:
VC-1 is an open codec just like H.264.

H.264 is controlled by the Motion Picture Experts Group who are beholden to no one particular company. VC-1 is controlled by MS who will ensure VC-1 always works to the benefit of MS.

Quote:
IMAP is a mail protocol, whereas Exchange is an enterprise solution not quite apples to apples

Ok I can expand Apple's open source support to IMAP, WebDav, CalDav, vCard. Which all combined do what Exchange does. Enterprise has become entrenched with Exchange but it is not the only option.


Quote:
I don't quite see it as that way. And the way things are going, as Apple and it's CEO become more entrenched in the media business, I see things becoming more closed off.

Another good example is WebKit. Opening up Internet Explorer's web engine to open source is completely against how MS works.


Quote:
I know it's just business, and there's perfect logic on their end, but I personally want to have products with as much flexibility as possible. I Like Apple, but I will continue to argue for greater freedom with their products.

Flexibility can be seen in different ways. Using an unlocked phone right now. You are limited to what the mobile phone company offers. Because of the deal that Apple has made with ATT none of the iPhones features are held hostage for more payment. The iPhone is not held to ATT Media, or Sprint TV, or Verizon V-Cast.

We are free to use all of iPhone features without paying ATT more. We are able to load any media content we choose into the phone without paying ATT any money.
post #119 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

I can understand AT&T don't want this. They offer a cheap unlimited data plan, but the iPhone is limited in the data that will be used. If you could plug in your home computer or laptop, there'd be some people who would use 10-50 times the average iPhone user amounts.

Cellular service providers charge even more for tethering, presumably because they expect greater usage of the available cellular bandwidth by a tethered laptop.

Quote:
That said, I think it's an oversight.
Perhaps Apple should offer laptop email via the iPhone (protected to make AT&T happy)? Or AT&T could offer a data package for your laptop (via the iPhone) - so that you can browse the web if you want.

When I switched from my HTC 8525 and Treo 750 (alternating between the two for their different features and strengths) to the iPhone, I was only a little concerned about losing the ability to tether. Only a little concerned because, while away from the office, the iPhone replaces my laptop for so many functions. On the iPhone, the web is actually usable and html e-mail is also rendered accurately. So I've lost the ability to tether--big deal! I'm actually happier with the iPhone, because I can leave my laptop behind in many cases and the monthly service fee is even less than what I was paying for the HTC 8525/Treo 750 without the tethering option.
post #120 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You really aren't paying attention. You are being very closed to this. Either you don't understand the average phone user, r don't care.

I've never said that this is difficult per se, just that the average phone user will find it to be so.

You must be very young, and have never heard of the joke about the blinking 12:00 o'clock VCR program setting.

Mel, you're being highly redundant and apparently not paying attention to others yourself. What I've said is that iPhone users are not average. People who are going to find sufficient value in the iPhone to pay the price for the device + monthly service fees are people who are on average going to be more educated and technologically adept.

That aside, installing 3rd party apps on the iPhone is easier than setting the clock on a VCR.

Quote:
Either that, or you are an Apple Nazi.

If being fed up with the crap other cell phone and PDA manufacturers (plus Microsoft) are still giving us makes me an "Apple Nazi", then so be it.
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