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Preemptive Attack on Sept. Surge Report: Part II - Page 17

post #641 of 685
7/8/08 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Yes, but! We can never forget how, after the Vietnamese domino fell, other dominoes toppled in quick succession, to leave us where we are today-- under the boot of our Soviet masters.

So when certain people start talking about how we have to draw a line in the sand to stop Islamofascism before it encircles the world, just remember how prescient they have been.

Yes I just love it when someone from the conservative side says : " Well see the US prevailed over the Soviets! Yeah us! We were right all along! ". When the truth is that the Soviets toppled from their own weight! Too much over spending on the military and not enough on their own people. Hmmm? Maybe there's a lesson there?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #642 of 685
7/8/08 at 7:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Yes I just love it when someone from the consevative side says : " Well see the US prevailed over the Soviets! Yeah us! We were right all along! ". When the truth is that the Soviets toppled from their own weight! Too much over spending on the military and not enough on their own people. Hmmm? Maybe there's a lesson there?

Lessons? We don't do lessons.

We're too busy throwing rocks at each other. Myself included.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #643 of 685
7/8/08 at 7:38pm
My only question at this point is whether or not I'm still a liar.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #644 of 685
7/8/08 at 10:51pm
At the risk of bringing back bad memories for Addabox, a second glitter-bump.

, ................
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post #645 of 685
7/8/08 at 11:49pm
(shudder)
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #646 of 685
7/8/08 at 11:52pm
Oddly hypnotic, though......
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #647 of 685
7/10/08 at 5:59am
BTW, SDW, this from the WaPo this morning:

Quote:
Originally Posted by the General in charge of training the Iraqi army

Asked when Iraqi ground forces could handle security so U.S. troops would not have to, Lt. Gen. James Dubik told lawmakers on Capitol Hill that the strength of Iraq's ground forces had grown significantly. "The ground forces will mostly be done by middle of next year; their divisions, brigades and battalions are on a good timeline," Dubik said in testimony before the House Armed Services Committee. "Could be as early as April. Could be as late as August," said Dubik, who until last week led the effort to train Iraqi forces.

Let us know when you're angry.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #648 of 685
7/17/08 at 8:43pm
Hey hey hey! A possible development!
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #649 of 685
7/18/08 at 7:17am
That is clearly propoganda midwinter. Bush and his mini-me clone, McCain want a million year war with continual and unending bloodshed. They were seen handing out guns to children last week and marching them onto school buses where they were shipped immediatly to Iraq.

There is only one person who can alter that future, much like he alters his own website to erase his own positions and prior judgments, Barack Obama.

Quote:
Yet Mr. Obama now wants to ignore that judgment, and earlier this week his campaign erased from its Web site all traces of his surge opposition. Lest media amnesia set in, here is what the Obama site previously said:

"The problem the Surge: The goal of the surge was to create space for Iraq's political leaders to reach an agreement to end Iraq's civil war. At great cost, our troops have helped reduce violence in some areas of Iraq, but even those reductions do not get us below the unsustainable levels of violence of mid-2006. Moreover, Iraq's political leaders have made no progress in resolving the political differences at the heart of their civil war."

Mr. Obama's site now puts a considerably brighter gloss on the surge. Yet the candidate himself shows no signs of rethinking. In a foreign-policy address Tuesday, the Senator described the surge, in effect, as a waste of $200 billion, an intolerable strain on military resources and a distraction from what he sees as a more important battle in Afghanistan.

Barack Obama, he will bring our troops home, to Afghanistan.

I want all of you to answer something for me, especially since you love tossing around that wonderful neo-con label.

How is unilaterally going into Afghanistan with more troops instead of bringing home the troops suddenly redefined as ending the war or bringing about peace? How is blowing up things in Afghanistan NOT fighting them over there so we do not have to fight them over here? How is going into Afghanistan looking for Osama Bin Laden seven to eight years after the fact not dealing more with revenge than the problem or making us safer within our own borders? Finally how is going into Afghanistan without persmission still not part of the "you broke it you bought it, so now rebuild it" very expensive nonsense that was claimed with regard to Bush?

I ask this because it seems a lot of you have moved your own goal posts on this matter due to HOPE and CHANGE being waved in front of your eyes.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #650 of 685
7/18/08 at 8:19am
Honestly, you think that since there is an election going on that our soldiers, the Taliban, AL Qaeda™ - et al are going to set down their weapons, order pizza and beer and wait for it to end? That they are going to be dictated by what two men campaigning for the presidency do or say in the next five months?

Nope, it's fighting as usual. The strategies change day by day. It's insurmountable. And it's fluctuating to many variables and situations. I expect that both candidates will be shifting goal posts all the way to the end.

On point...Afghanistan is Bush's forgotten war. They thought they beat the Taliban and pulled out too early, now they are being ass kicked again. What do you think Bush might do? Pull troops out of Iraq and bring more troops into Afghanistan?

I can hear him now, "Dang! The boy Osama has a good idea there! Let's roll!" We'll see...we'll see...\

OMG. I was almost right...
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post #651 of 685
7/24/08 at 12:20am
I'm going to go ahead and bump this because I know that SDW isn't illiterate and has recently posted on PO, so we know he's online. He really has no excuse not respond to this thread other than.. maybe he's taking the 5th?

SDW... WTF?
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post #652 of 685
7/24/08 at 6:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akumulator View Post

I'm going to go ahead and bump this because I know that SDW isn't illiterate and has recently posted on PO, so we know he's online. He really has no excuse not respond to this thread other than.. maybe he's taking the 5th?

SDW... WTF?

I think this thread needs more illustrations, like the glitter bump...

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post #653 of 685
7/24/08 at 6:33am
Since it's been over a month and two pages worth of posts, I think we need a link to the original takedown that made SDW scuttle away like a crab.

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...&postcount=593
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
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A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
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post #654 of 685
8/1/08 at 4:31pm
To keep this thread alive, before you forget and continue to respond to made up stuff from the maker upper who hopes you forgot.
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post #655 of 685
8/3/08 at 11:26am
Here I'll bump this timely page so SDW might have easy reference.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #656 of 685
8/6/08 at 9:55pm
So the Iraqi parliament has adjourned without settling the debate on the contested process for regional elections, which means the elections that were supposed to happen in October probably won't happen till next July, if then.

So that's another political benchmark under the bus. Remember the bench marks? Bush sounded all stern and shit when he laid them out. They've met, what, three? Out of a million?

There doesn't seem to be much political progress in Iraq at all. In some ways, things are getting worse, as factions complete ethnic cleansing in their strongholds and become less compromise-minded (which of course one of the reasons that violence is down).

Any surge enthusiasts care? Or is it enough to keep repeating "the surge worked" as an incantation to ward off hippies? Because I would think the deeply fucked-up and intractable status of Iraq as, you know, a country (as opposed to an opportunity for some Americans to prove something to some other Americans) might give one pause.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #657 of 685
8/6/08 at 9:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

They've met, what, three? Out of a million?

Met? MET? Oh no, my friend. The Bush admin moved the goalposts from "met" to "making progress."
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #658 of 685
8/7/08 at 12:55am
Ah, semantics.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #659 of 685
8/7/08 at 7:17am
An Iraqi reporter for the Guardian has filed four video reports on the results of the 5 years of American invasion and the subsequent Surge. I urge everyone to watch these. Because he was able to enter parts of Baghdad and other territories that other American reporters cannot access for threats of kidnapping or death.

There is nothing squeamish shown. Only pain, anger, sadness, desperation and oppression. 7-8 minutes each...

Baghdad, 5 years on (part 1): City of walls

Part 2: Baghdad, 5 years on (part 2): killing fields

And Part 3: Baghdad 5 years on (part 3): Iraq's lost generation

Another British report...

Iraq five years on: Remembering Saddam

This all isn't so surprising. The uptick in violence was due to the tribalization of Iraq. Much like there was violence in the formation of Pakistan, which continues to see violence to this day. Now it's bottled up but still waiting to spill out at any second.

The U.S. is to blame for much of this, we invaded in ignorance of the tribal lines of Iraq. Had Bush and friends done a little research he wouldn't have disbanded Saddam's police force, creating a diverse police force instead of a Shiite militia death squad.

This is what happens when a nation is wrecked by an invading foreign power, chaos ensues. The U.S. created this chaos and is responsible for it in every way. It would be better if nothing but calm and rational people took charge in times of war but that's not how the world works.

The U.S. would be no better if this level of chaos, disease, death and war came to our country; people shot at ambulance helicopters during hurricane Katrina. Impending starvation of children, spouses, friends and yourself doesn't not lead to peaceful discussion, it leads to the type hell we have in Iraq.
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post #660 of 685
8/7/08 at 8:22am
I hear what you're saying @_@ Artman, but let's keep the hell, death, and damnation coverage in the context of coming from sanctions which killed tens of thousands, and a totalitarian regime intent on rabble rousing in the region indefinitely.

This will be a much better situation once things settled down, and it would appear that we are eight tenths of the way there. Iraq is no longer a menace to anyone but itself; having paid off Iran with a watered-down NIE, things should go much faster.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #661 of 685
8/7/08 at 8:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

I hear what you're saying @_@ Artman, but let's keep the hell, death, and damnation coverage in the context of coming from sanctions which killed tens of thousands, and a totalitarian regime intent on rabble rousing in the region indefinitely.

This will be much a much better situation once things settled down, and it would appear that we are eight tenths of the way there. Iraq is no longer a menace to anyone but itself; having paid off Iran with a watered-down NIE, things should go much faster.

So...uh...I gather you didn't watch these reports yet. It may help you catch up to the present and the future of Iraq. And the future of Middle East relations with us in the region. Which presently, is not damn good or will be if we don't. leave. Iraq.

Ignorance is bliss because if you don't know something, it can't hurt you. Right?

At least watch Iraq's lost generation. This will show you the future.
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post #662 of 685
8/7/08 at 8:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

So...uh...I gather you didn't watch these reports yet. It may help you catch up to the present and the future of Iraq. And the future of Middle East relations with us in the region. Which presently, is not damn good or will be if we don't. leave. Iraq.

Ignorance is bliss because if you don't know something, it can't hurt you. Right?

At least watch Iraq's lost generation. This will show you the future.

ah, ah ah! You're still not countenancing the sanctions, and their legacy, or the nature and legacy of the regime that what we replaced.

No, I didn't watch the reports. I'd imagine if things were that bad in Iraq, Stewart would be mocking the deaths on TDS, and it would be wall-to-wall coverage here on AI and in the media (although I don't own a TV.) I read The Economist, and I'm not seeing anything but slow painful progress reported.

Why can't the Left put the sanctions and Saddam in the mix? It's always "year zero" when we invaded; ten years of UN tender mercies has simply been forgotten.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #663 of 685
8/7/08 at 8:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

ah, ah ah! You're still not countenancing the sanctions, and their legacy, or the nature and legacy of the regime that what we replaced.

No, I didn't watch the reports. I'd imagine if things were that bad in Iraq, Stewart would be mocking the deaths on TDS, and it would be wall-to-wall coverage here on AI and in the media (although I don't own a TV.) I read The Economist, and I'm not seeing anything but slow painful progress reported.

Why can't the Left put the sanctions and Saddam in the mix? It's always "year zero" when we invaded; ten years of UN tender mercies has simply been forgotten.

Should we add in the British occupation to the cost of our invasion, too? Howsabout the Ottoman collapse? Hell, let's just dilute it until no one's responsible at all.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #664 of 685
8/7/08 at 8:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Should we add in the British occupation to the cost of our invasion, too? Howsabout the Ottoman collapse? Hell, let's just dilute it until no one's responsible at all.

No, that's not fair, midwinter: we were kicking the crap out of Iraq with sanctions, no-fly zones, missile strikes, etc. until the day we invaded. It was a mess. That isn't ever brought into consideration in the popular bitching about Iraq. The deaths from sanctions simply aren't discussed, then or now.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #665 of 685
8/7/08 at 9:14am
And here's something else: I remember the phrase "quagmire" used before the invasion -- but only in terms of house-to-house fighting, or some Vietnam situation. No one was screaming their heads off about the tribal angle, which is what, along with idiotically ignoring Iran, got us in trouble.

Throw in believing that we could wave a copy of Penthouse and a Snickers bar in Mosel and everyone would start channeling Thomas Paine.

This is a lot like the Mortgage crisis, one out of 100 saw it coming, it was nowhere inside the popular paradigm. We would be led to believe that the entire apparatus of State, and our intelligence community saw the tribal angle and anticipated it, only to have it pushed aside by the whim of one man. This was a failure of a mentality that is across the board, although Bush certainly exacerbated things by an order of magnitude.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #666 of 685
8/7/08 at 9:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

No, that's not fair, midwinter: we were kicking the crap out of Iraq with sanctions, no-fly zones, missile strikes, etc. until the day we invaded. It was a mess. That isn't ever brought into consideration in the popular bitching about Iraq. The deaths from sanctions simply aren't discussed, then or now.

Then you weren't paying attention during the runup. The deaths of sanctions were one of the primary talking points in the attempt to paint our invasion as a humanitarian mission.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #667 of 685
8/7/08 at 9:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

No, I didn't watch the reports.

Of course you didn't.
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post #668 of 685
8/7/08 at 9:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Then you weren't paying attention during the runup. The deaths of sanctions were one of the primary talking points in the attempt to paint our invasion as a humanitarian mission.

Yes, but that was the pitch from the sales team, along with Saddam putting surface-to-surface missiles on container ships.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #669 of 685
8/7/08 at 9:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Of course you didn't.

With all due respect to @_@ Artman, those reports are, in all likelihood, polemical sticks that good little doggies are supposed to chase. (I read about The Lancet numbers, too.) I'll stick to following the progress, long-term in a cheap global warming hysteria rag like The Economist.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #670 of 685
8/7/08 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

With all due respect to @_@ Artman, those reports are, in all likelihood, polemical sticks that good little doggies are supposed to chase. (I read about The Lancet numbers, too.) I'll stick to following the progress, long-term in a cheap global warming hysteria rag like The Economist.

Elitist. None of the rest of us can afford a subscription to the Economist and must make do with The Nation.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #671 of 685
8/7/08 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

With all due respect to @_@ Artman, those reports are, in all likelihood, polemical sticks that good little doggies are supposed to chase. (I read about The Lancet numbers, too.) I'll stick to following the progress, long-term in a cheap global warming hysteria rag like The Economist.

Yeah, why take a chance, waste your time on something that is probably in all likelihood propaganda.
Odd that I don't find this surprising.
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post #672 of 685
8/7/08 at 10:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

Elitist. None of the rest of us can afford a subscription to the Economist and must make do with The Nation.

Ha!

My parents still watch TV -- and they're voting for BHO, btw -- but I get tickled when they watch these news programs, get shined on to one weird "crisis" after another. There's something in the food, or water, peak oil is going to kill us all, the oil company's are out to get us, we are going to invade Iran any day now. I try to assure them that it's not quite that bad as what they saw on TV, and usually a couple of months or year later -- I'm proven right. But it never ends, and it seems to me to be getting weirder, and weirder, and weirder.

Who wants to be continually whipsawed like that?

Kill your televisions!

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #673 of 685
8/7/08 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Yeah, why take a chance, waste your time on something that is probably in all likelihood propaganda.
Odd that I don't find this surprising.

With this crutch, this old age, and this wisdom...


Hell maybe they're right -- I'll read all about it when it happens -- and I'll kiss @_@ Artman's ass and give you 30 minutes to draw a crowd.







more work less posting

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #674 of 685
8/7/08 at 10:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Ha!

My parents still watch TV -- and they're voting for BHO, btw -- but I get tickled when they watch these news programs, get shined on to one weird "crisis" after another. There's something in the food, or water, peak oil is going to kill us all, the oil company's are out to get us, we are going to invade Iran any day now. I try to assure them that it's not quite that bad as what they saw on TV, and usually a couple of months or year later -- I'm proven right. But it never ends, and it seems to me to be getting weirder, and weirder, and weirder.

Who wants to be continually whipsawed like that?

Kill your televisions!

That's why I quit watching US cable news last summer. I tend to yell at the teevee a lot less now.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #675 of 685
8/7/08 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Yeah, why take a chance, waste your time on something that is probably in all likelihood propaganda. Odd that I don't find this surprising.

...dmz watches videos...

"...Judging by his accent, this reporter is probably a terrorist as well.

It's becoming more and more common, even here in the Homeland, for terrorists to appear wielding cameras in order to threaten, endanger, and terrify peaceful subjects of the empire.

When our brave protectors cannot even collectively assault a few miscreant bicyclists -- without video circulating to slander those same protectors -- there is a serious problem with the direction of society..."

...dmz returns to pulling wings off flys...

Purely fiction...

P.S. the gf only has ass kissing privileges
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post #676 of 685
8/7/08 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

With this crutch, this old age, and this wisdom...


Hell maybe they're right -- I'll read all about it when it happens -- and I'll kiss @_@ Artman's ass and give you 30 minutes to draw a crowd.







more work less posting

I really wonder why it doesn't surprise me that some are so quick to assume and form an opinion on something they admit they have never seen.
And then expect, or assume they would be taken seriously when posting any opinion in a forum.

Arrogance can be a virtue only when it can be backed up with respect from your peers.
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post #677 of 685
8/7/08 at 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

I really wonder why it doesn't surprise me that some are so quick to assume and form an opinion on something they admit they have never seen.
And then expect, or assume they would be taken seriously when posting any opinion in a forum.

Arrogance can be a virtue only when it can be backed up with respect from your peers.

Fine.

Then I'll arrogantly kiss @_@ Artman's ass, when/if the time comes.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #678 of 685
8/7/08 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Fine.

Then I'll arrogantly kiss @_@ Artman's ass, when/if the time comes.

You're lapsing on your Leviticus
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post #679 of 685
8/7/08 at 10:48am
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post #680 of 685
8/7/08 at 10:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Fine.

Then I'll arrogantly kiss @_@ Artman's ass, when/if the time comes.

Much as I'd like to see that, not,
don't assume without evidence of your rightness.

Damn artman, now I've just about seen everything I didn't want to see.
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AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Preemptive Attack on Sept. Surge Report: Part II