Originally Posted by BenRoethig
Seriously, you have the college professor syndrome. You make assumptions without actually talking to anyone outside your own homogeneous group and based solely own your own biases. I don't know why we don't just ignore you. All you do in discussions is troll anyone who is outside your definition of some kind of Mac purity. The only answer you will accept is for everyone to turn over their ability to think to Apple.
Actually, I'd settle for some actual THOUGHT among the midpro zealots. And yeah...ignore me...that's fine. Just stick your fingers in your ears and keep chanting "xMac, xMac, xMac" and maybe Apple will release one...whether you need it or not. Oh, and you know nothing about my "group." How could you?
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Originally Posted by Aflaaak
Sony has come out with some pretty cool looking AIOs. I don't think there's anything about OSX that makes it more suitable, or the only OS that is suitable, for an AIO design.
IMO, the reason that AIOs haven't caught on for Windows is that if people want a small Desktop form factor, they buy a laptop (and also get portability you don't get with an AIO). If they want expandibility/upgradeability (and better bang/buck), they get a regular Tower.
Well, that's also the reason Apple doesn't make a midpro, ironically enough.
Thats a total generalization.
No, it's a perception based on my personal experience.
I for one, don't want an AIO like the iMac. I want an mid-priced tower. It's not that I want more power that an iMac, I want to add a second HD, internally. I may want to use the monitor I have. Maybe in a couple years I'll want to add a HD DVD burner. Why do I have to over-spend on a MacPro to get this capibility?
That's a reasonable point. That said, why do you want to add a second internal drive? Why must it be internal? Why won't an external HD-DVD burner do? It'll be more portable and versatile that way (blu-ray, since HD-DVD is doomed
I think if Mr. Jobs really wanted people to switch to a Mac, offering a Mid Tower would be the perfect model to lure them over. Afterall, it's what we're used to and like.
Apparently Apple disagrees. Apple has never been about copying the Windows model. So I think it's likely that Mr. Jobs disagrees too.
Originally Posted by snoopy
I don't think you mean that, exactly. I'm assuming you mean being picky about subtile differences in word usage. In this I agree with you. However, in my reply, I went out of the way to play down semantics. For example, we are talking about market segments, but I only used the word segment once, and even then put segment in parenthesis to down play it.
Yet in this discussion, we have some differences in meaning, which are important. Logic is a process by which we can prove something. Evidence is simply data by which we can support a theory. This is a very big difference. Also, regarding my use of the word subgroup, like the Mac or Windows subgroup, it was only to satisfy you if you happened to be picky about word usage. Since you're not, just ignore it.
Thanks for the lesson, professor.
Now, you say that any data about Mac and Windows users obtained from a forum or survey is worthless, a subjective measure. So be it if that is what you believe.
I believe that because it's true. Any statistician would agree with me. A poll taken here or even on every Mac enthusiast site would be statistically invalid.
Yet, in previous posts, you and others have said that if Mac users wanted a mid-tower, Apple would build it. For this statement, there is no evidence at all, just pure faith in how Apple operates.
You're right. There is no evidence. There is just...logic.
Apple would not utterly ignore a major, profitable consumer demand for years on end. There is no incentive to do that.
And Apple sells mostly iMacs, therefore Mac users buy mostly iMacs. You have demonstrated nothing by your statement.
Apple does not sell mostly iMacs. Apple is also one manufacturer. Wintel is a huge conglomerate of sorts. And they tell towers.
That is simply ridiculous, unless you have actually interviewed Wintel users who visit Apple stores. (And obviously, some do buy the iMac.) In contrast, using taking data from AI forums we are in effect getting interviews with many Mac users who want a mid-tower, or some such Mac. As expected we get those who like the iMac too. No one is saying we all must like the same thing, only that many of us want a different choice, one that is not currently available.
I'm merely sharing my perception. I've not labeled it as anything else. I'm also asking if others have seen something other than I have. So far, no takers. And one more time, champ: A poll on a Mac enthusiast site is not market research. Period.
Originally Posted by Marvin
If someone needs a Raid setup, do they want or need two internal drives?
If I understand it correctly, it would be a "want." That said, people that would need RAID generally are pro-level users anyway.
Also, someone wanted 4 Ram slots and you seemed to be ok with that and that's a want.
True, but I think most would agree it's a reasonable want. I didn't say wants were bad.
Wants and needs can't be separated easily. There are some things that people want badly enough that it borders on a need but that need will vary from person to person. I need matching displays but others can live with one glossy, one matte.
Wants and needs can be separated pretty easily in most cases.
Whatever you call them, the reasons are simply given because they are reasons why we either don't own an iMac or don't like owning one. It's not about convincing you the reasons are valid, the reasons are valid enough for us that we would get an alternative.
I understand the reasons. I just think some of them are being misrepresented as true needs when they are really just preferences.
You know why it is and you know that's not it.
I don't have any idea what you mean by that.
Their desktop sales are lagging,
That's inaccurate. Desktops sales are more stagnant than lagging. They're still selling reasonably well nonetheless.
profits are high because their products are overpriced and they make a lot of money in other products
Apparently their products aren't overpriced, because they're selling. Considered that? They do have high margins, it's true. However, Apple's prices are much lower than they used to be for a lot of products. Yet, they still keep making more money.
and the marketshare gain isn't due to desktop sales nor is it necessarily due to any of their computer products.
Uh, we're only talking about computer products
, sir. We're not talking about iPods. I agree that their market share gain is not due to desktop sales, though that point is not actually all that significant because you claimed that Apple was "pushing away customers" or whatever the quote was. Clearly they're not....the customers are just buying laptops
, which they feel meet their needs.
So what you're saying is that we have good reasons but your only reason is you don't think enough people will buy it. Given what we know about where the new buyers will come from (PC land) and that they own mid-range towers, I think we can safely say the demand will be high enough.
I think some
of the reasons are good. And no, I don't think enough people will buy it. Your second statement appears to be reasonable, but it really is just a guess. There's no supporting evidence for it at all. And given...cough...what we know
about Apple's previous product offerings (when they tried to be more "PC like", we can safely say there's a good chance the product will fail while
cannibalizing Mac Pro sales.
Mac Mini (entry level) -> media center, PC switcher, tryout model
xMac (mid level) -> prosumer, gamer
iMac (mid level designer model) -> AIO niche people, people who like a clean work space
Mac Pro (high end) -> people who need the most raw power, high end pros who need a workstation not a desktop
That sounds all warm and fuzzy, but I've seen people in the Apple Store, haven't you? It wouldn't be that simple. "You mean I need a monitor for the first two, not the iMac, but for the Mac Pro?" "What's a PCI slot?.....Why doesn't the iMac have them? Do I need one? Or two? Why should I spend twice as much on the xMac as on the mini?....Why is the xMac almost as much as the iMac, but it doesn't include a monitor?...."
All of these questions have answers. But Apple has made things so that those questions never even have to asked in the first place. That's the ticket.
It's not semantics if they have different meanings. You are trying to estimate a market based on logic i.e you are making up conclusions from your preconceptions, which is worthless. Snoopy was using the evidence that some Mac users are unhappy with Apple's lineup and PC users don't appear to be unhappy with towers.
And his evidence was statistically worthless. Totally.
You don't really know that though, it's an assumption you keep making.
Oh come on. You can't be for real. I'll actually bet you $100 right now. Go out and talk to 20 people at the Apple Store and tell me that their opinions are in line with ours (in general) as Mac enthusiasts. I think you know you're full of shit on this one.
The other assumption you keep making is that we are basing our opinions on that.
You are. Over and over again.
We are giving some reasons why we prefer towers and we think for some reason the people who have those opinions covers[sic] a range far broader than the mid-tower advocates on this forum. OK, actually we're just guessing that's the case. You got us there.
Fixed that for you.
They manage it with all their other products. What separates a Macbook Pro from Dell laptops which are $500 or so less for the same spec? Apple makes it worth more simply due to design and their OS.
Good...with ya there....
Where are all the beautiful mid-range PCs? They are still all big ugly beige boxes or funky alien designs that just look absolutely terrible. If Apple made one like that G5 cube, PC users would be all over it. Who cares if they run Windows on it? Apple is a hardware company.
Yup...still on board....wait...hold on....what's this?
The best way to get them to switch is to do it in steps. Offer a form factor they are used to with the expansion they are used to and give them the system they are used to. Then keep switching the parts gradually until in 5 years they are OS X fanatics with octo core tablets.
So the way to get people to switch to what Apple is all about is to.....change what Apple is all about?
It seems you're now engaging in a bit of mission creep.
First it was "we want this."
Then it was "we need this."
Then it was "lots of people want this!"
Now it's become "Apple needs to do this to get people to switch."