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Safari - tabs - done!

post #1 of 358
2/23/03 at 3:48pm
Thread Starter 
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #2 of 358
2/23/03 at 3:50pm
What?? <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
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post #3 of 358
2/23/03 at 4:01pm
They are...? Not that I see...
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post #4 of 358
2/23/03 at 4:05pm
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by iBrowse:
<strong>They are...? Not that I see...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, in v62
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #5 of 358
2/23/03 at 4:09pm
[quote]Originally posted by JLL:
<strong>

Yes, in v62 </strong><hr></blockquote>


i'd like a screenshot, if possible.

or, you can PM me
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post #6 of 358
2/23/03 at 4:31pm
And when is this magical v62 going to exist outside the realm of your imagination?

(I'm not saying that you are lying, I'm just getting excited )

EDIT: I put v60. I have 60, 62 is the magical one...

[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: iBrowse ]</p>
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post #7 of 358
2/23/03 at 4:46pm
How to make a new tab in the current version of Safari.

Cmd-N.
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post #8 of 358
2/23/03 at 4:50pm
Where do the tabs appear? Below the bookmarks bar? On it?
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post #9 of 358
2/23/03 at 4:57pm
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>Where do the tabs appear? Below the bookmarks bar? On it?</strong><hr></blockquote>


below, sort of hanging off of it. they are metal; the frontmost one appears to be a part of the plane of the toolbar and bookmark bar; inactive tabs are a darkened metal, and appear to be on a further 'behind' plane as compared to the other tabs.

it's completely clear why metal is used, upside down aqua tabs would be odd looking. i do not know if they are rearrangeable, but they are clearly a custom control class.

each tab has its own close box, which is closely akin the grey 'x' from the search field.
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post #10 of 358
2/23/03 at 4:59pm
umm, screenies would be nice for those of us who are not 1337. Thanks.
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post #11 of 358
2/23/03 at 5:01pm
Gawd...I can't believe Hyatt convinced Apple to use this f**king lame concept. If tabs remain, they'd better be rearangeable and easy to use than the Chimera tabs when Safari goes final.
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post #12 of 358
2/23/03 at 5:05pm
I won't believe it until I see screenshots (that or it's on my computer!)
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post #13 of 358
2/23/03 at 5:20pm
Oh I believe it, but I just want it.
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post #14 of 358
2/23/03 at 6:18pm
[quote]Originally posted by kim kap sol:
<strong>Gawd...I can't believe Hyatt convinced Apple to use this f**king lame concept. If tabs remain, they'd better be rearangeable and easy to use than the Chimera tabs when Safari goes final.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you don't like them don't use them.
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post #15 of 358
2/23/03 at 6:28pm
[quote]Originally posted by EmAn:
<strong>
If you don't like them don't use them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't like it because it promotes a single window approach to web browsing. It's the antithesis of multitasking to hide something behind another completely. It's bringing the MDI way of doing things to the Mac. It's promoting a bad habit, IMO.
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post #16 of 358
2/23/03 at 6:36pm
[quote]Originally posted by EmAn:
<strong>
If you don't like them don't use them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'd like to use them if they were more usable. Alas I don't like having to open my window screen-wide so that name truncation doesn't occur and so everything is legible.

Don't roll your eyes at me or I'll send my foot up your arse.
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post #17 of 358
2/23/03 at 6:40pm
Tis true folks...

Check out ThinkSecret for the screen shots!

<a href="http://www.thinksecret.com/" target="_blank">http://www.thinksecret.com/</a>

Cheers!

Dave
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post #18 of 358
2/23/03 at 6:41pm
It's a cop-out to tell critics of abysmal interface design not to use the interface in question.

MDI is evil. Tabs are a particularly virulent and ill-considered type of MDI. They have no place in an application designed by a company that prides itself on interface design.

Oh well. I suppose I can always wait for OmniGroup to show Apple how it's done.
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post #19 of 358
2/23/03 at 6:48pm
how do I activate the "hidden debug menu" like thinksecret says to do?
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post #20 of 358
2/23/03 at 6:50pm
I said this in the MacNN forums, but the good news (i'm grasping now) is that the "tabs" look more like temporary items added to the bookmarks bar than true tabs.

Not only are tabs for web pages poor UE, so is the MDI concept in total. Why people can't seem to manage multiple windows using either the Dock icons or the Window menu is beyond me.
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post #21 of 358
2/23/03 at 6:50pm
[quote]Originally posted by dstranathan:
<strong>how do I activate the "hidden debug menu" like thinksecret says to do?</strong><hr></blockquote>


From Mac OS X Hints.. (great resource BTW)

Step 1 - QUIT Safari
Step 2 - In the terminal type: defaults write com.apple.Safari IncludeDebugMenu 1

Once done just run Safari again and you should see Debug right after the Help menu...

Dave
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post #22 of 358
2/23/03 at 6:56pm
[quote]Why people can't seem to manage multiple windows using either the Dock icons or the Window menu is beyond me.
<hr></blockquote>

Say I`m reading a forum, Its so much easier to run through, find the topics I want, Then command click. Get a nice sized list of tabs, then just run through them all..
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post #23 of 358
2/23/03 at 6:56pm
Not only that...but Safari's tab implementation reeks of unoriginality. Hyatt is just redoing what he's been doing since his first wet dream about this dumb concept.

I thought Apple would be the pioneer again and revolutionize web browsing...or have a bit of innovation in store for us.

Safari's just another browser...and it's ripping off all the other browser's ideas and features.

The Chimera/Camino team might as well call it quits now as the last remaining people that are sticking to Chimera for tabs slowly move towards Safari, leaving an immensely small group of people still clutching to Chimera for the tiny speed advantage it gives over Safari.

[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</p>
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post #24 of 358
2/23/03 at 7:00pm
[quote]Originally posted by kim kap sol:
<strong>Safari's just another browser...and it's ripping off all the other browser's ideas and features.[02-23-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes.. They all have windows.. and the ability to make bookmarks..

Is Safari supposed to dance for you?
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post #25 of 358
2/23/03 at 7:01pm
What's MDI?
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post #26 of 358
2/23/03 at 7:04pm
[quote]Originally posted by iBrowse:
<strong>

Yes.. They all have windows.. and the ability to make bookmarks..

Is Safari supposed to dance for you?</strong><hr></blockquote>

No...but I'd like it to do something useful and not rehashed.
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post #27 of 358
2/23/03 at 7:10pm
[quote]Originally posted by DaveGee:
<strong>


From Mac OS X Hints.. (great resource BTW)

Step 1 - QUIT Safari
Step 2 - In the terminal type: defaults write com.apple.Safari IncludeDebugMenu 1

Once done just run Safari again and you should see Debug right after the Help menu...

Dave</strong><hr></blockquote>
There's also some utility that activiates the menu. I think it's SafariEnhancer or something like that. I've been using it since Safari came out.
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post #28 of 358
2/23/03 at 7:11pm
But a person could shift-command-click (to open windows behind the current one) through a series of links and run through them with the Window or Safari Dock menu too. If it's too much mouse movement, you can either use command-` (aka the "tilde" key) to cycle, or maybe Apple could create an inspector of some sort.

This is just tab abuse. Like the Windows taskbar, the text labels quickly become pointless (they should at least include a site badge in the tab) and have to either cramp up in the one row or worse yet, stack up (thankfully they don't do that at least). Tabs really are a poor way to deal with an unlimited number of pages. It's a nice idea to adopt them as part of the desktop metaphor, but like all things from the "analog" world, the analogy must be limited and reappropriated. Finite (pre-set) tabs are a very nice idea, and are well-implemented in OS X. Unlimited tabs are a major PITA.

re; What is MDI?

<a href="http://developer.apple.com/ue/switch/windows.html#macOSXDoesntUseMDI" target="_blank">http://developer.apple.com/ue/switch/windows.html#macOSXDoesntUseMDI</a>

[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
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post #29 of 358
2/23/03 at 7:11pm
[quote]Originally posted by kim kap sol:
<strong>

No...but I'd like it to do something useful and not rehashed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Tabs are useful.
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post #30 of 358
2/23/03 at 7:12pm
It does plenty of useful things, everything a web browser should do. But for the longest time everybody discussed whether or not Apple would/should release a web browser, and they did. So now it's back to the usual AI mode, picking it apart.
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post #31 of 358
2/23/03 at 7:14pm
[quote]Originally posted by torifile:
<strong>What's MDI?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Multiple Document Interface.

It's the application interface you see in Windows all the time. There's a parent window with a global menubar at the top. Document windows are opened within the parent window.

Think of it as a miniaturization of the complete Mac interface. MDI is necessary in windows because there's no single uniform, OS level menubar to control things. MDI brings a single menubar to Windows apps instead of having File, Edit, etc menus for each document window.

It's a really big mess.

I just don't see the advantage of tabs to multiple web browser windows. People can just use the freaking "Window" menu or Dock icon to select the 'tab' the want.
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post #32 of 358
2/23/03 at 7:15pm
BuonRotto, Windows is just rife with tabs abuse, isn't it...

Don't even get me started on stacked tabs like the ones in Windows control panels that change positions when you click them!
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post #33 of 358
2/23/03 at 7:16pm
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>I said this in the MacNN forums, but the good news (i'm grasping now) is that the "tabs" look more like temporary items added to the bookmarks bar than true tabs.

Not only are tabs for web pages poor UE, so is the MDI concept in total. Why people can't seem to manage multiple windows using either the Dock icons or the Window menu is beyond me.</strong><hr></blockquote>

They're true tabs. They're an addition to the Bookmarks bar, not a replacement. They act just like tabs you've used in any other tabbed browser, only upside-down.

I'm disappointed that Apple didn't take the time to make a better kind of multipage browsing. But, after using v62 for a bit, I'm not sure that it makes for a poor UE. (They have all the advantages of tabs, and all the flaws.) I think one has to acknowledge just how great the demand for tabbed browsing is, and just how difficult a better solution is -- speaking from having personally trying to design various proposed alternatives.

One thing is for sure, the tabs in v62 will make a lot of people happy. They're fairly easy to ignore if you hate them.

Here's to something better in Safari v2.0.

[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</p>
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post #34 of 358
2/23/03 at 7:17pm
[quote]Originally posted by EmAn:
<strong>
Tabs are useful.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Tabs are a bad habit. It's like smoking. You can like tabs, but it doesn't mean it's good for you.

Tabs a solution in search of a problem.
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post #35 of 358
2/23/03 at 7:18pm
Ok, I see what you're saying about MDI, but tabs in Chimera really help me organize my pages when I'm going through message boards. I agree with the statemrnt you made about it making a mess, but for message boards, it helps me out.
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post #36 of 358
2/23/03 at 7:20pm
But the other difference with tabs is that it's not only a way of changing document windows, it also automatically hides all the others. Rather than click (minimize) click (bring other window out of dock), it's a single click. It keeps things much cleaner than having windows all over the place.

I don't see why tabs are poor user interface. Could someone explain the argument against them?
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post #37 of 358
2/23/03 at 7:21pm
[quote]Originally posted by iBrowse:
<strong>Ok, I see what you're saying about MDI, but tabs in Chimera really help me organize my pages when I'm going through message boards. I agree with the statemrnt you made about it making a mess, but for message boards, it helps me out.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Repeat after me:

Open
Another
Window

Use
The
Window
Menu
Or
Dock
Icon
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post #38 of 358
2/23/03 at 7:23pm
Hobbes: I know they're plain ol' tabs, I'm just trying to rationalize the situation based on the tab appearance.

Eugene: Don't even get me started on Windows' use of tabs! Worst user experience ever!

Obivously, this isn't the absolute worst thing in the world. I'm sure people will say if you do't like them, don't use them. Well, that's right, but it does set a bad precedent. Other apps have used tabs in this bad way before even these web browsers picked them up. But Apple has essentially blessed a bad idea in the UE. Not like this is the first or last time. I don't mean to whine, I'm just pointing out my rationale.
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post #39 of 358
2/23/03 at 7:26pm
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>But the other difference with tabs is that it's not only a way of changing document windows, it also automatically hides all the others. Rather than click (minimize) click (bring other window out of dock), it's a single click. It keeps things much cleaner than having windows all over the place.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hm, interesting point. A more forward-looking arrangment would be to fix up and finish off the Single Window Mode again from the OS X developer previews. Then all apps would benefit.
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post #40 of 358
2/23/03 at 7:27pm
Geez...

No one is forcing you to use tabs. Unlike Microschlaft word toolbars, tabs don't bloat the interface if you don't use them. We have yet to see... there may be a way to turn them off completely.

I don't see what the big deal is. When Safari came out everybody and their brother were screaming "TABS, TABS, TABS" and now everyone is saying "the concept sucks". You're a bunch of crybabies. Don't like tabs, use multiple windows. Don't like multiple windows use tabs (if they're available).

Personally, I loved the side webdock concept someone posted here before. It was very Apple-esque, efficient, and used the page width available with Apple's preferred widescreen ratio screens much more logically.

Tiny page icons in the dock are useless unless you have a Cinema HD display. Ditto to side-by-side open windows, and that certainly doesn't help when you have ten pages open. Flipping through pages with a page menu is slow and annoying. Tabs are there, and having individual close boxes already makes this implementation better than Chimera's.

But really, stop the griping. Don't criticize other people's UI preferences. It sounds like jerks bickering over whether the dock should be on the left or on the bottom. If you like vanilla and I like chocolate, I'm not going to try to convince you that vanilla sucks.

Apple did well to accommodate a wider range of users' preferences on this one.
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