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Safari - tabs - done! - Page 5

post #161 of 358
God forbid that some of us might want to keep our browsing organized...

Saying that having a clutter of windows is just as convenient as using tabs is silly. If I've been doing a lot of stuff some are in viewable easily, some obscured behind others, some minimized etc.

Everyone acts like tabs are going to totally screw up OS X gui. I guess those tabs in the prefs panes dont count?

Whaaaatever... people need to light lighten up. I bet half of you cried and whined for windowshade to come back too. Pffft.

I'm just waiting for Apple to re-implement the volume knob in quicktime!!! (hehe no no just kidding... now THAT was bad gui...)
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post #162 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by stupider...likeafox:
<strong>
Sounds like most tab users are so brainwashed by Windows that they've not taken the time to learn how to use OS X properly.

It reminds me of how people complained that the Zoom widget didn't cause the app to take up the whole screen, as seeing other applications leering through from the background puts some switchers off.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thank Jebus.

I'm still wondering why people think mousing to the static "Window" menu and selecting one item is harder than mousing to a dynamic location on the screen to select a tab.

I'm still wondering why people enjoy scanning a one-dimensional list of tabs. As Brad illustrated, it quickly becomes confusing even with &lt;10 tabs. I always list items in a column because the list becomes two dimensional. A single bulleted item is read left to right, while separate items are in their own row.

But I've already listed all my reasons, and tab-proponents are just rehashing lies about how difficult it is to use the built-in features of the OS instead. "To use the Window menu you have to chop off your pinkie, close one eye, mouse to the top of the screen, then make a wish, blah blah..." not.
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post #163 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by dviant:
<strong>Everyone acts like tabs are going to totally screw up OS X gui. I guess those tabs in the prefs panes dont count?</strong><hr></blockquote>

The tabs in the pref panes do count as bad UI. Why should I be forced to look at one control panel at a time? What if I want to quickly compare settings in two pref panes at once? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

I can't believe you even brought this up.
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post #164 of 358
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>I'm still wondering why people think mousing to the static "Window" menu and selecting one item is harder than mousing to a dynamic location on the screen to select a tab.

I'm still wondering why people enjoy scanning a one-dimensional list of tabs. As Brad illustrated, it quickly becomes confusing even with &lt;10 tabs. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm still wondering that people aren't allowed to have their own friggin ways of working!!!

PS: The Window menu is as dynamic as anything else: the windows are listed alphabetically!!

The tabs are placed where I opened them.

[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>I always list items in a column because the list becomes two dimensional. A single bulleted item is read left to right, while separate items are in their own row.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hey, no room for personal prefences in this thread.

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: JLL ]</p>
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post #165 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by blue2kdave:
<strong>

Wow, I guess I should get some notes from you on how I should work then. Talk about arrogance. This is a FEATURE folks, you don't have to use it. blah blah blah blah blah</strong><hr></blockquote>

Flying COOOKIE.
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post #166 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by JLL:
<strong>
I'm still wondering that people aren't allowed to have their own friggin ways of working!!!

PS: The Window menu is as dynamic as anything else: the windows are listed alphabetically!!
</strong><hr></blockquote>

The Window menu is static. The contents of the menu are dynamic. A tab can be anywhere on the screen.
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post #167 of 358



Im not much of a graphics designer, but shouldnt the color scheme on the tabs be reversed, like it is on the bookmarks?

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
post #168 of 358
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>

The Window menu is static. The contents of the menu are dynamic. A tab can be anywhere on the screen.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You still don't get it.

In one window I always have five AI forum section front pages open.

I reload a tab to see if there are new posts, and new posts that I want to read are opened in new tabs.

Those five tabs to the left DO NEVER MOVE!!! Even not if someone links to - let's say - an Apple page in a thread and I open that page in a new tab.

In the Menu: oops, the Apple page moves the AI pages down the list.

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: JLL ]</p>
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post #169 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by JLL:
<strong>

You still don't get it.

In one window I always have five AI forum section front pages open.

I reload a tab to see if there are new posts, and new posts that I want to read are opened in new tabs.

Those five tabs to the left DO NEVER MOVE!!! Even not if someone links to - let's say - an Apple page in a thread and I open that page in a new tab.

In the Menu: oops, the Apple page moves the AI pages down the list.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And I refer you back to Brad's screenshot. No UI should allow for something like that to happen. And no amount of refining will really fix that.

I dug around one of the websites that hosted one of the v62 images and found this:

<a href="http://www.look-designs.com/extras/safari_mp/safari_mp.html" target="_blank">http://www.look-designs.com/extras/safari_mp/safari_mp.html</a>

Why do you think the author created this mock-up? I'll give you a hint. It looks like an attempt to solve one of the problems with tabs we've talked about. Too bad it just introduces more problems.
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post #170 of 358
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>

And I refer you back to Brad's screenshot. No UI should allow for something like that to happen. And no amount of refining will really fix that. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well let's see the final result before judging, OK?


[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>Why do you think the author created this mock-up? I'll give you a hint. It looks like an attempt to solve one of the problems with tabs we've talked about. Too bad it just introduces more problems.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And what's the point about showing it then? It doesn't fix the socalled problem.

Back to square one.
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post #171 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>Thank Jebus.

I'm still wondering why people think mousing to the static "Window" menu and selecting one item is harder than mousing to a dynamic location on the screen to select a tab.

I'm still wondering why people enjoy scanning a one-dimensional list of tabs. As Brad illustrated, it quickly becomes confusing even with &lt;10 tabs. I always list items in a column because the list becomes two dimensional. A single bulleted item is read left to right, while separate items are in their own row.

But I've already listed all my reasons, and tab-proponents are just rehashing lies about how difficult it is to use the built-in features of the OS instead. "To use the Window menu you have to chop off your pinkie, close one eye, mouse to the top of the screen, then make a wish, blah blah..." not.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Alrighty, then, let's just cut the BS and get down to the bare basics, and examine each quite thorougly, without bias. I've never really used tabs, always been an IE/OmniWeb person myself, and am now using Safari.

Mousing to the Window menu, which really isn't all that static as it changes position from app to app, isn't hard at all. Neither is mousing to a dynamic location, if it's location varys only horizontally. It is well highlighted and quite obvious; therefore organisms with at least the mental capabilities of a chimpanzee probably wont have a problem with it. But difficulty isn't the question; rather, time and efficiency are.

Think of it this way: unless my muscle memory is trained to perfection, to absolute perfection, mind you, and I know exactly where the pointer is to begin with, and can somehow calculate the dynamic tracking of the mouse in (using a too complex-for-mental-math formula depending on speed and distance), I'm still going to have to look at where I'm going with the pointer in order to get it to where ever I'm going. Therefore, the fact that one widget is static and one widget is not has little weight. My brain can quickly determine where the desired object is, even easier if the variation is on a horizontal plain. And it can determine this before my hand has started to move, in all likelihood. I can easily determine the location of the tab bar, its under the big thing at the top of the window. The lag lies between my brain and my hand.

Now with the location out of the way, how about what must actually be done? Well, with the tab bar, the information is already there, one click does the task I want. With the Window menu, I must first click the menu to activate it (extra steps = wasted time) and then when the menu pops up and the information appears below the cursor, I've got to search again to find what I want. More mouse movements. Damn! There goes a few more precious microseconds.

Tabs can be more efficient, regardless of how limited they have the potential of being. It is easier for us to read through a list of items rather than a row of items, but that is negated by the fact that we must perform extra actions to obtain said list. For a few pages, tabs are an excellent way of switching between them, when the number climbs, you can always revert easily to windows.

Those of you who bitch on and on about MDI interfaces and about how Apple is making an disputed example of an MDI interface in Safari, you're all quite narrow minded.

Think of the way nearly all browsers function (and the definition of browser in an OS sense): they are all, essentially, MDI interfaces. When you want to go to a new page, say you click a link, bookmark or enter a new URL, you are not thrown into a new window specific to that document/page. Instead, the previous page is now accessible by the back button, and in the same document window, you are now at a new document. Voodoo! Blasphemy! The back and forward buttons are really just cached tabs, only they are less easily accessed and not properly labeled. Browsers (keep in mind the definition of browser) by their very nature shred guidelines (also keep in mind the definition of guideline, it hasn't been etched in diamond, gilded, and set in stone inside of an impregnable safe residing in Fort Knox) in every move.

If you people really want to have a non-MDI browser, then it you can make one that functions as such: New web pages, or documents, are opened/loaded by selecting Open Location in the File menu. Each page/document has its own window, and clicking a link on a page will open a new window no matter what. There is no forward/back history switching, that is thrown out due to how heathenish and "MDI" it is. Pages/documents in the history are more to the like of recent documents, you can select them but it will open a new window. Document windows display the URL, but you cannot modify it and use the document to go somewhere else.

The web just doesn't work this way, people. It was never meant to. Web pages cannot so easily be called simple documents, they are more and less at the same time. Guidelines are not set in stone, and there are always exceptions to the rule.

Tabbed browsers need the ability to consolidate windows to tabs, to change an existing tab to a new window, and to explode a window full of tabs into a bunch of single windows. They also need the ability to have the default behavior be user-configured to either be tabs or windows.

I was once told by a sometimes-insightful, sometimes-overreactive someone that critiquing someone's work in progress is bad form, specifically one not released to the public. From the outside looking in, we probably appear to be a bunch of jackasses, sitting here and going on and on about how much what Apple is working on -- and is not nearly finished with -- sucks. It's quite childish.
post #172 of 358
Damn Eugune,
What was that bit about "tab-proponents are just rehashing lies about how difficult it is to use the built-in features of the OS instead"?

I don't understand how/why an optional means of navigation deserves such righteous indignation....wowsers. I like the option of using tabbed windows...or NOT using them. Who loses here?

It's like having a switch that turns off the passenger side airbag when you don't want it activated. Something that nobody is admitting is that GUI's, like language, art and design, change over time.

I'm totally on your side in regard to the one-panel-at-a-time nature of the system preferences. One very good solution in this instance would be to allow the user to continue using the prefs as they're currently set to work in OS X OR to allow them to open prefs one at a time like we did in OS 9. I think that many consumers are HAPPY with, and fully comprehend the "clearinghouse" nature of the current System Prefs setup...so I wouldn't totally axe that method.

But now, more than ever, I am convinced that i want tabs.

Hey Eugene, the moment you ship me a 17" Lapzilla I will consider myself a bitter enemy of the tabbed browser window option.....but UNTIL that time I'll still say that it would be nice.

And I'm not just lyin'!!

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post #173 of 358
I have been reading the many, many, many posts on this tab versus no tab topic. I have been very interested in the comments people make concerning good UI versus bad UI. I myself, study Human Factors/Ergonomics and have quite a bit interest in the subject of usability. I have been trying to find some information regarding the use of tab like UI designs. I haven't had much luck. However, my (somewhat) educated guess on this matter is that while the use of tabs, whether in preference panels or web browers, may lead to information being blocked at times, actually provide a very intuitive way to organize large amounts of information. With regard to the preference panels, I can't think of a great number of times I have needed to look at more than one panel at time, but upon further review an command-click option to open a new panel might be a good addition for power users. Of course, the above statements don't really address the use of tabs in web browsing. Better get back on track.

Many times, I find my self trying to surf 3 or 4, maybe 5 websites at once. I tend to think in several channels at once (albeit sometimes with decreased performatnce across all channels), and multiple windows achieves that. The problem, of course, is organization. It is good that (at least with IE 5) new windows are shifted down and to the right so that the titles of previous windows can still be seen. However, if you to return to any of the previous windows besides the most recent one, the titles of the windows (and the information contained within) are now blocked. I contend that for organization purposes, and under most circumstances, seeing all of the TITLES of the windows simultaneously are more important than being able to see all the INFO simultaneously. Therefore, it seems, at first glance, that tabs would provide a very good way to integrate all the titles of windows so that they can be seen simultaneously. This would provide improved organization. I will concede, however, that the ability to open both new tabs and new windows is probably the way to go.

Just as an aside, some people don't tend think the way I do, with the use of my self-described "channels", and instead like to surf the net in more serial fashion. In that case, the use of tabs may be confusing and/or unwanted. It most definitely should be an option, not a requirement.

I am going to keep looking for some information on this UI situation, and will let everyone know if I find anything.

Questions or Comments? I'd be happy to hear them.

Ed
post #174 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by JLL:
<strong>
Well let's see the final result before judging, OK?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Short of some mindblowing innovation, I'm not excited at the prospects.

[quote]And what's the point about showing it then? It doesn't fix the socalled problem.

Back to square one.<hr></blockquote>

It shows how there is a very real problem with the basic idea behind tabs. The guy's mock-up solves one problem but he takes a whole lot of screen space to do so. The funny thing is, the problem was already solved before Safari even existed.
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post #175 of 358
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>It shows how there is a very real problem with the basic idea behind tabs.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why?

If I post a mockup of a new interface to something, does that mean that there is something wring with that app?

No, it shows my personal view on the matter.
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post #176 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by JLL:
<strong>
No, it shows my personal view on the matter.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The Sun is made of asparagus.
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post #177 of 358
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>

The Sun is made of asparagus.</strong><hr></blockquote>

How clever
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post #178 of 358
Eugene, please read my post and comment on what you think about it. I'd like to see what you have to say...
post #179 of 358
Either that, or let's lock this thread because methinks all of our tanks are stuck in the mud. We're going to have to fight this war with salad forks....I hear the sun's made of asparagus.

(possibly) in before lock!!!!!
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post #180 of 358
The issue here isn't really if tabs are inherently bad, it's whether or not tabs are a bad way to navigate between multiple web pages.

In system preferences panes, the tabs are consistent. They behave in the same way, are always in the same relative position, and always the same size. If you see tabs in other places they work the same way. The tab on the left always takes you to the same place, there are always the same number of tabs, etc.

In a web browser, the tabs will always be different sizes, in different locations, and will always take you different places. It will also become difficult to distinguish one from another very quickly and it requires extra clicking to create tabs. Even worse, users have to learn that some tabs work one way, while other tabs work differently, and it sets the stage for other developers to create their own custom tab interfaces with more inconsistencies.

In short, tabbed browsing may make one application more convenient for some users, but it's effect on the big picture is very inconvenient.

However, since it's a hidden feature in the beta, maybe it's not going to actually be implemented, and they were just checking it out to see how it would work.

On a side note, Safari's faster page rendering and snapback features reduce the usefulness of tabbed browsing. I think finding solutions that reduce or eliminate the need for tabbed browsing is the way Apple should be looking.
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post #181 of 358
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by rogue27:
<strong>In system preferences panes, the tabs are consistent. They behave in the same way, are always in the same relative position, and always the same size. If you see tabs in other places they work the same way. The tab on the left always takes you to the same place, there are always the same number of tabs, etc.

In a web browser, the tabs will always be different sizes, in different locations, and will always take you different places. It will also become difficult to distinguish one from another very quickly and it requires extra clicking to create tabs. Even worse, users have to learn that some tabs work one way, while other tabs work differently, and it sets the stage for other developers to create their own custom tab interfaces with more inconsistencies.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If the tabs actually looked like standard Aqua tabs I could see some minor problems, but the tabs does not look like Aqua tabs at all.
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post #182 of 358
I think there are specific occasions when tabs are useful (I use the Page Holder function in IE for about 4 sites, and tabs replace this pretty well), but it's very much personal taste and usage in that context.

Hey, we like to have options!
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post #183 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Spart:
<strong>Eugene, please read my post and comment on what you think about it. I'd like to see what you have to say...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I would be totally fine with tabs as an option if I believed they wouldn't abuse that option ... tabuse? Anyway, if tabs didn't come with all the problems BuonRotto, Amorph, Kickaha, and others have listed, then they would be perfectly fine. It's too bad they do...(and I can't think of any real way to fix them.)

Safari is obviously supposed to be lean. I don't think adding redundant features really helps. Tabs just add complexity without really speeding things up. In my mind, tabs actually slow things down in most cases. Adding tabs means defining additional widgets while adding a new window defines no new widgets.

And another thing I just thought of. Tabs work at the expense of the Window and Dock menus. If you have a huge number of tabs in a window, they of course won't show up in the Window or Dock menu. It's sort of like how web pages designed around Flash aren't navigable by the back/forward/stop/reload buttons. It's this kind of inconsistency that makes me go bonkers.

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
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post #184 of 358
Visually I would prefer a tinch of space between the tabs shown in the screenshots posted so far.

Also, some clever means of providing quick identity to the tabs would be swell.

When I tell you that I may sometimes have as many as 14 open windows going it isn't a lie. Organizing with tabs would truly help me. Going to the WINDOWS tab on the menubar is as SLOW a method as any for looking for the "right" window. Comman-tilde is just as bad if you're slamming between FOURTEEN open windows. Do I close some of the windows and come back later? NO. I have to show things to colleagues and discuss the contents of those web pages at any given time.

Wild stuff this.

Saying that the tabs don't look right is a specious argument. They use the same color as the "surface cladding" of the browser window, with non-selected tabbed windows using a darkened look. The Bookmarks Bar uses a darkened appearance as its mouseover because it is an impression of the bookmark (or bookmark folder) being slightly depressed in recognition of the mouseover. It is not a permanent position, and the "mechanical" paradigm remains unchallenged.

EDIT: I would like to add that I'd like the toolbar collapse button jewel on the top righthand side to collapse all of this mess when I'm trying to use more screen real estate.

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: drewprops ]</p>
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post #185 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Spart:
<strong>Mousing to the Window menu, which really isn't all that static as it changes position from app to app, isn't hard at all. Neither is mousing to a dynamic location, if it's location varys only horizontally. It is well highlighted and quite obvious; therefore organisms with at least the mental capabilities of a chimpanzee probably wont have a problem with it. But difficulty isn't the question; rather, time and efficiency are.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Using tabs does require more fine motor skills than using a menu at the top of the screen or the keyboard. The window menu at the top of the screen is always in the exact same place when you are using Safari. You can just slam your mouse cursor to the top of the screen with no chance of going past your target. With a tab near the top of the screen, but not at the top, you have to slow down your mouse movement and precisely click on the spot you want, not too high and not too low. That takes time. It is even more of an issue for people on laptops who are using touchpads.

Not related to this reply, but on the screen size front:

Having a row of tabs takes up screen space. It is just as efficient to have two windows open and tiled than to have one window with two tabs. It is wasteful of screenspace if you only have one tab open. If you have three or more tabs, then it does save on space as opposed to having multiple windows, but if you have much more than three tabs, then a new problem is created as they start to get unreadable.

You can try to make them more readable by making the browser window larger. Unfortunately, that requires more mousing from the user and it also wastes screen space because now every web page on every tab in the window is wider than it needs to be, and the browser wastes much more screen space than it needs to which obscures things in the background. Also, if you have the screen space to make your browser windows unnecessarily large, then you have the screen space to have multiple normal-sized browser windows open and don't need tabs anyway.

Another option to solve the tab name readability problem is to have multiple windows each with multiple tabs open. That also creates a problem because it requires you to cycle through each window and scan each tab to see which one you are looking for. Using this method, you have to alternate between opening new windows and opening new tabs, which also means you have to memorize more controls.

Finally, the best way to solve the tab name readability and screen size problems is to just not have tabs.
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post #186 of 358
I think we're going in circles at this point. We should probably just agree to disagree.
post #187 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>

The tabs in the pref panes do count as bad UI. Why should I be forced to look at one control panel at a time? What if I want to quickly compare settings in two pref panes at once? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

I can't believe you even brought this up.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ha don't dispute the superior wisdom of Eugene! Somehow I never thought being unable to see two preference panes at once as any big hinderance. I've never once thought "dammit i wish i could see my Keyboard Prefs next to my Energy Saver Prefs!!"...

I think you just enjoy covering your desktop in window after window after window after window after window after window after window.... <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[surprised]" />

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: dviant ]</p>
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post #188 of 358
hehe ok i agree to disagree...

(btw after finally seeing it in action, i DO think that Apples tab implementation still needs polish... but not bad for a hidden feature in an unreleased beta browser)
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post #189 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by stupider...likeafox:
<strong>Sounds like most tab users are so brainwashed by Windows that they've not taken the time to learn how to use OS X properly.</strong><hr></blockquote>


<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> Not even worth touching that one, but, what the heck, I will tell you this, I like TABs in a browser, heck I wish we had TABs in every application to show the windows underneath for quick click to bring it to the front, but anyhow, I have been using Macs since 1984, never have purchased a PC and don't plan to because I HATE windows. I therefor don't think I've been brainwashed by Windows. <img src="graemlins/cancer.gif" border="0" alt="[cancer]" /> I'm thinking you are the one being influenced by Windows. You feel TABS have some kind of association with Windows and being that you can't stand Windows you hate TABS. TABS are a good UI design. Yes, I agree that Microsoft abuses this UI design or does not use it right, but TABs when used right are the quickest way to get to the window you want, look, even Apple thinks so, have you been to their web site lately?

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: PooPooDoctor ]</p>
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post #190 of 358
::waving "agree to disagree" flag over head and pointing back to post mentioning that all of our tanks are stuck in the mud and suggesting that we now all go down to the pub and have a beer and talk about how ugly Steve Ballmer is::

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
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post #191 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by dviant:
<strong>

Ha don't dispute the superior wisdom of Eugene! Somehow I never thought being unable to see two preference panes at once as any big hinderance. I've never once thought "dammit i wish i could see my Keyboard Prefs next to my Energy Saver Prefs!!"...

I think you just enjoy covering your desktop in window after window after window after window after window after window after window.... <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[surprised]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Tell me why I should have to make my Energy Saver pane go away just so I can fix the Screen Effects delay. Or when I'm troubleshooting networking issues, why I should only be able to work with the Sharing, Network, Remote Desktop, SharePoints, etc. preference panes one at a time?

Like I said, I'm a multitasker.

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
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post #192 of 358
[meh, didn't work]

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
post #193 of 358
I must admit that I now imagine Eugene's desktop chockablock FULL of windows....and I have a pretty powerful imagination, so the number of windows I'm seeing is pretty frickin' phenomenal.....omigod at the Windows!!!

This is hysterical!

(I am, by the way, drinking beer now....I like Eugene, so this isn't to be construed as mean...just really, really funny....and FULL of windows)

hehe

And now back to Joe Millionaire...
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post #194 of 358
with all the squeeling about tabs, has anybody noticed that safari is getting faster and faster??? or is it just me??

g
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post #195 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>I would be totally fine with tabs as an option if I believed they wouldn't abuse that option ... tabuse? Anyway, if tabs didn't come with all the problems BuonRotto, Amorph, Kickaha, and others have listed, then they would be perfectly fine. It's too bad they do...(and I can't think of any real way to fix them.)</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't see how they are being abused. I do agree that they have their inherent problems, but so to does using the Dock and Window menu, and creating tons of windows. I can handle three windows quite easily. Fifteen? Clutter incarnate. Tabs don't handle it well either. Seeing a title in the window menu doesn't sparks my memory no more than a tab within the window itself.

[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>Safari is obviously supposed to be lean. I don't think adding redundant features really helps. Tabs just add complexity without really speeding things up. In my mind, tabs actually slow things down in most cases. Adding tabs means defining additional widgets while adding a new window defines no new widgets.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, let's not include features that might perform tasks somewhat similar to what's already there. To hell with icon and list view in the Finder. Let's take out the window selection from the Dock; it's already taken care of. And I don't need that damn PPP menu extra, that's what Internet Connect is for!

God forbid we learn something new, perhaps for the better. So what if the tabs aren't static, they can't be if they display changing content. I suppose that you argue for a better solution to the ever-changing, chaotic buddy list as well? A few tabs are complex only to the simpleminded. No one sane is going to dump 15 sites into one window and expect anything good to come of it. Don't be so narrow-minded.

[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>And another thing I just thought of. Tabs work at the expense of the Window and Dock menus. If you have a huge number of tabs in a window, they of course won't show up in the Window or Dock menu. It's sort of like how web pages designed around Flash aren't navigable by the back/forward/stop/reload buttons. It's this kind of inconsistency that makes me go bonkers.</strong><hr></blockquote>

With their current, unreleased, beta, just barely implimented and not even meant for the public functionality, yes. However, it would be rather neat for the tabs open in a window to be listed within the menu item representing the window itself, like the Recent Items menu.

You still haven't responded to any of my points, really. I bring up few good points about how browsers already define their own, inconsistant-with-everything-else UI. It's just the way browsers and the web are meant to work. As someone else previously said, tabs are a good way of organizing large chunks of information not meant to be read at the same time. I don't know about you, but without the aid of a chameleon's independantly moving eyes, I have problems reading two things at once.
post #196 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>Using a tab is one click.</strong><hr></blockquote>Right.
[quote]<strong>
Using the window menu or Dock is one click.</strong><hr></blockquote>Wrong. Using the window menu is click and drag. Quite a difference. Using the dock is ctrl-click and drag, which is even worse.
[quote]<strong>
Using the window menu means going to a static location every single time. A tab's location is dependent on the window's location.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good argument, but you are forgetting that window tilling means that your new windows are never in the same place, either. Hardly consistent UI.
[quote]<strong>It's for the same reason why I pinned my dock to the right of my screen...so the trash can would stay put.</strong><hr></blockquote>I don't know about you, but I click application and document icons a hell of a lot more often than I click (or drag to ) the trash. In fact. I *always* use cmd-del and shift-cmd-del so I almost never click the trash. Having it stay put serves no purpose whatsoever.
[quote]<strong>
It really doesn't matter if I'm spoiled by a large screen. Tabs don't magically add real estate. Multiple windows don't necessarily take away real estate.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Tabs add consistency and reduce clutter.

But, Eugene, no one is forcing you to use them. Why are you trying to force people not to? Why not let people use what they prefer?
post #197 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Spart:
<strong>I bring up few good points about how browsers already define their own, inconsistant-with-everything-else UI. It's just the way browsers and the web are meant to work. As someone else previously said, tabs are a good way of organizing large chunks of information not meant to be read at the same time.</strong><hr></blockquote>

[I should be kicking myself for getting back into this but...]

The whole "it's just the way browser and the web are meant to work" is a whole 'nother can of worms. Let's not even get started!

Truth is, there's no perfect solution for dealing with lots of data in any constricted area (the screen, that be). The Dock and tabbed browsing are both very demonstrable examples of the trade-offs one has to make between maximizing info, maximizing access to that info, maximizing legibility and minimizing the learning curve.

The main idea of Aqua is that it is a document-centric experience -- the ability to share data among many apps and files. The windowing system and the pasteboard hold the content. The menubar and utility windows are the tool chests for manipulating the stuff. The Dock is meant to help make all that data accessible and organized. Tabs and/or tabbed browsing isn't the end of the world. But it would be nice to see the three basic elements of OS X work togather simply and clearly without the need for stuff like this. Everything else is extraneous to at least some degree. I might be looking for a solution that is too "elegant" in its economy of means, but tabs to me are usually superfluous.

I like tabs as a way to compact data that isn't the user's content so that their content (be it a web page, a Word document or a picture) has as much space as possible to be seen and manipulated. So for example I like Andrew Stone's use of tabs in his inspectors. I don't have problems with tabs in other utility windows. (System prefs are in this nether-region between utility and content, aren't they? ) But why compromise the windowing system with tabs, and why not make the Dock earn its pay? Granted, I do think the Dock can use some improvement given what I said above about the inherent compromises of its role. But I would like to think that the answer isn't in crutches like tabs but in a more sophisticated document organizer, which the Dock is or should be.

[cleaned up a bit]

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
post #198 of 358
It's not just the web not working how the UI guidelines say it should, browsers inherently don't work that way either. Web browsers, to be specific. And it's treading on thin ice to say that web pages are merely documents. If that were so, these forums must be the result of wizardry!

Please do this for me. Hold down command, and press the 'N' key on your keyboard, oh, say, about 15 times. Observe what happens. Windows are all over the place. When they reach the edge of your screen, they start on the other edge.

Using the Window menu to organize this living hell is one way around this 'problem.' Tabs can also be a solution. They have the virtue of keeping everything in one window. And enough of this MDI crap. All browsers are MDI. You're just so used to the way they work, it doesn't occur to you. They also have the drawback of being limited in space in which to present info on what it is they display, thus when there are a large number of them, things get hairy. I rarely have more than five windows at a time, and usually three or less.

But as I've said, Apple does need to incorporate tabs with the Dock menu and Window menu.
post #199 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>
Tabs add consistency and reduce clutter.

But, Eugene, no one is forcing you to use them. Why are you trying to force people not to? Why not let people use what they prefer?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Because every action has a consequence, small or large. The consequence I see is conformance with (promotion of) the Windows UI model. It's like the other thread I started... Apple only added the single-window app quit/close behavior because Windows users were leaving apps open unknowingly.

I'm not capable of forcing Apple or you to do anything. You should think about how tabs really benefit your user experience though.
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post #200 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Spart:
<strong>But as I've said, Apple does need to incorporate tabs with the Dock menu and Window menu.</strong><hr></blockquote>

When should Apple incorporate tabbed tabs? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
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