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post #241 of 358
TABS POLL!

On a scale of 1 to 5 how much do you like tabs:

1: Tabs are the epitome of all the UI evil in this world. Yes, I realize that some people like, or even need them, but those people do not understand the evil they are unleashing, they are deceived, addicted (and probably gay to.) The devil sent tabs from hell to destroy us, and if they stay on this earth another day, OS X will begin on an unstoppable decent until its UI is less bearable then using DOS on a 486 with a broken keyboard and bleeding fingers.

2: Tabs are a bad idea. Trying (and failing) to solve a problem that wasnt really there in the first place. If you want to use them, fine. But I will have no part in your MDI hell.

3: Tabs? Huh? WIll they make the 970 get here any faster?

4: Tabs are a cool Idea, and in my opinion they reduce clutter allow me quick and easy access to the web pages I have loaded. Easier then say, using the windows menu or minimizing them in the dock. If you dont like them, dont use them. But quit raining on my parade.

5:I would rather sell my family, give up both heroin and crack cold turkey, then loose my precious precious tabs. I will NEVER allow those UI Nazis to take my precious. MY PRECIOUSSSSSSSSSSS
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post #242 of 358
1.5 - Tabs are slightly less evil than the Indy Racing League.
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post #243 of 358
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by stupider...likeafox:
<strong>Anyone remember the Simpsons episode when Homer gets to design his perfect car</strong><hr></blockquote>

Watched that episode two days ago.
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post #244 of 358
I'll choose 2
[quote]2: Tabs are a bad idea. Trying (and failing) to solve a problem that wasnt really there in the first place. If you want to use them, fine. But I will have no part in your MDI hell.
<hr></blockquote>

because:

I use them when I'm using phoenix on windows but don't feel the need on Mac OS X.

I would prefer Apple to spend it's time and effort produced more innovative approaches to solve the browsing interface problems.

I worry about how implementing the tab interface will affect the rest of the GUI and code complexity. (This *is* a problem, though I have seen it vehemently denied in this thread.)

Example problem: what should the snapback and Google snapback buttons do if you have since moved to a different tab? If you mark a page for snapback, switch tabs and mark again does it overwrite the last one?

I seem to prefer it when Apple doesn't listen to its customers.
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post #245 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by zKillah:
<strong>


.. shouldnt the color scheme on the tabs be reversed, like it is on the bookmarks?

:confused: </strong><hr></blockquote>


Anyone care to address this?
post #246 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by zKillah:
<strong>


Anyone care to address this?</strong><hr></blockquote>

It was addressed...the lighter brushed-metal foreground color is to give a sense that the webpage you're looking at right now is attached to the navigation controls at the top of the window. Ya know...it's to give a feel that tabs in the darker portion aren't being affected by the nav controls.

I actually agree that it makes sense...although the 'upside down' tab shouldn't have a tab-appearance at all, imo...it should be attached to the content...in other words, the Safari team should lose that little gap between the tab and the page at the very least.

[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</p>
post #247 of 358
I think why I've never really got into using non-tabbed browsers is because I don't have a way to instantly see how many pages I'm browsing in a multi-window browser. I have to go to the window menu and check. With tabs, at least I can immediately see if I'm browsing other pages. Truncation isn't a problem unless I'm opening many, many topics at once on a web board, and even then, I clicked all those links because I was interested so I don't really care that I can't read them. When I'm not browsing multiple topics at a message board, I usually have less than five tabs open, so I can easily see everything.

I did try getting Pith for Safari, which allows quick switching between multiple windows, and even uses favicons to help it out, but I just don't like little floating windows as they get in the way. Tabs take up room too, but like the menu bar at the top of the screen, they aren't in front of anything... they just reduce vertical space slightly.

If there was something like a drawer (well, not a drawer, just a divider, I hate drawers) or section off to the side where you could switch between pages, and there was a preview of the pages, just like that mockup, I'd like that. Although it seems to take a lot of screen area, I don't really care about the loss of horizontal area. Vertical area is really at a premium because of wide screens and the dock. But I could give up horizontal area any day.

In my opinion, tabs are a slightly flawed UI element, but I still like them myself. They are useful to me. Much worse is the dock. I want it to take less room while showing more information... which is entirely possible. At least I turned off magnification, that's the worst part of it. It's still kind of annoying how much room it takes up while not really providing you with much more information than the tiny Application Menu in Classic did.

Oh, I also want the ability to change energy saver settings from my battery menubar, it's stupid to have to either use Apple's premade "automatic" setting or to have to change settings whenever I unplug my computer. Maybe there's a 3rd party hack to do that.
post #248 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
<strong>
Oh, I also want the ability to change energy saver settings from my battery menubar, it's stupid to have to either use Apple's premade "automatic" setting or to have to change settings whenever I unplug my computer. Maybe there's a 3rd party hack to do that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Can you not do this with the new GUI scripting features of Applescipt? Then you could just stick it in the Applescript Menu in the Menubar.

I've only recently dabbled with Applescript but so far it rocks me like a hurricane. With Youpi Key and/or the Ericsson Clicker you can do almost anything at the press of a button on my mac keyboard or my T86i phone.
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post #249 of 358
4

FOUR!

QUATTRO!

FOUR!

4
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post #250 of 358
Here's an example of what I'm afraid will happen (is happening) by having Safari use tabs:

[quote]I would like tabbed windows for all applications, available beneath the title bar and anchored to the left-hand side. It would be perfect when having six or seven Photoshop files open at a given time, eliminating the need to 'minimize' and fill up the dock. That would be perfect.<hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=147422&perpage=50&pagen umber=2" target="_blank">http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=147422&perpage=50&pagen umber=2</a>
post #251 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by kim kap sol:
<strong>
It was addressed...
</strong><hr></blockquote>

My apologies then. It was getting rather tedious reading through all the pro and con arguments.


[quote]<strong>
... the lighter brushed-metal foreground color is to give a sense that the webpage you're looking at right now is attached to the navigation controls at the top of the window. Ya know...it's to give a feel that tabs in the darker portion aren't being affected by the nav controls.

I actually agree that it makes sense...although the 'upside down' tab shouldn't have a tab-appearance at all, imo...it should be attached to the content...in other words, the Safari team should lose that little gap between the tab and the page at the very least.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

But what if one is to have multiple rows of tabs. Wouldnt using the color scheme as adopted with the bookmarks make more sense? (Not to speak of the aesthetics problems this current scheme presents).
post #252 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by zKillah:
<strong>
But what if one is to have multiple rows of tabs. Wouldn’t using the color scheme as adopted with the bookmarks make more sense? (Not to speak of the aesthetics problems this current scheme presents).</strong><hr></blockquote>

There won't be multiple rows of tabs. Use Windows to see why this is such Bad Thing(tm).
post #253 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>

There won't be multiple rows of tabs. Use Windows to see why this is such Bad Thing(tm).</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

Id rather serve 3 weeks in Gaza.
post #254 of 358
Hello, my name is Ryan, and I'm a tab-oholic.
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post #255 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>Here's an example of what I'm afraid will happen (is happening) by having Safari use tabs:

<a href="http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=147422&perpage=50&pagen umber=2" target="_blank">http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=147422&perpage=50&pagen umber=2</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

It's happening...
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[surprised]" /> <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
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post #256 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>Here's an example of what I'm afraid will happen (is happening) by having Safari use tabs:

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like tabbed windows for all applications, available beneath the title bar and anchored to the left-hand side. It would be perfect when having six or seven Photoshop files open at a given time, eliminating the need to 'minimize' and fill up the dock. That would be perfect.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's an excellent UI element that SHOULD be added TO ALL APPs! Yes, a way to see open windows/files from the app you are currently using. And it will someday be despite what you ant-tab people think, by the way you guys remind me of the DOS geeks back when the Mac was introduced going on about how a GUI is silly and how it slows you down, at any rate, the use of tabs to show open windows is the solution to a busy desktop, the Dock is the WRONG place for it.

I can see why some of you are against the idea. Windows implementation of tabs is soooooo stupid and having windows within widows is even more moronic. The addition of navigational tabs to apps is hardly the same as window's stupid UI.

[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: PooPooDoctor ]</p>
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post #257 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by PooPooDoctor:
<strong>

That's an excellent UI element that SHOULD be added TO ALL APPs! Yes, a way to see open windows/files from the app you are currently using. And it will someday be despite what you ant-tab people think, by the way you guys remind me of the DOS geeks back when the Mac was introduced going on about how a GUI is silly and how it slows you down, at any rate, the use of tabs to show open windows is the solution to a busy desktop, the Dock is the WRONG place for it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

One question: how would you drag and drop without it being a serious PITA not only among apps, but even within the same app? Tabs are windows within windows, and the windows are even harder to use together. Tabs are such an inherently insular and static UI element, they hurt anyone ability to do work with efficiency. Does everyone else really just do work in one window at a time? doesn't anyone use even two widows at a time? doesn't anyone have their apps communicate with one another? Tabs hurt drag-n-drop, aka, point-and-click operation quite a bit. I am fast with a Mac. That's because I can drag and drop at will, something much more cumbersome on any Windows computer. You can of course still use the pasteboard, but drag-n-drop is not only faster, it's simpler, more easily learned. Tabs make it harder to use a machine in a very essential way. I'm not willing to risk such a fundamental - possibly the only really intuitive - aspect of computer behavior. It's a foundation of the Mac OS. To comporomise drag-n-drop compromises a Mac advatage, makes using a mac much harder, especially for new users who will not be able to not only multitask but share info among documents.

I object to tabbed browsing not for the immediate loss or benefit to Safari or browsers, but for the long-term prospect that it threatens to make computer use more complicated, if perhaps a little neater. It really is a Pandora's box we're opening.
post #258 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>One question: how would you drag and drop without it being a serious PITA not only among apps, but even within the same app?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Answer: Pop-up tabs.
post #259 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>
Answer: Pop-up tabs.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, and FAR more difficult to learn and drag to. Drag and drop on open windows is that important. It's the most important part of the user experience.

<a href="http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/Essentials/AquaHIGuidelines/" target="_blank">http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/Essentials/AquaHIGuidelines/</a>

See and point, direct manipulation.

[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
post #260 of 358
"See and point". this is the proper behavior. I should see where I'm heading before I even start moving the mouse. You can't do this with menus.
post #261 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>
Answer: Pop-up tabs.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's not a PITA? Do they spring back to the original open tab if you mouse off it or do they stick to the previously open tab? Is the necessary delay in the spring action going to save you time?

In the end we're defining new widgets and behaviors ...and promoting single window/pane operation.
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post #262 of 358
It's my sincere opinion that providing new ways of doing things is not wrong, if it's well implemented and consistent. If Apple starts using tabs, then tabs should behave in an identical manner in every app that uses them.

Yes, in my implementation of tabs, there would be a &gt;&gt; symbol at the right side if there are too many tabs, tabs would have a pop-up behavior (the original layer would pop back to the front after dragging) and all tabs would have an identical UI appearance.

You could drag a tabbed pane to create a new window, the same way pallettes work in Photoshop. This is the way System Preferences should work.

Lets discuss the pros and cons of such an implementation, shall we?
post #263 of 358
if I could have an OPTION to have tabbed finder windows I might just USE IT!!!

::watches Eugene recoil in shocked horror::
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post #264 of 358
I bet you guys would love BMW's iDrive...

When the surface of the world is a smoldering pile of ash because of all this, I'll be huddled in my dug-out cave mumbling "I told you so...I told you!!!"

[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
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post #265 of 358
I can't believe all the GUI research was for naught and GUI movement is actually regressing.

I guess after evolution there's always a devolution. Just like dinosaurs came and went. Good GUIs will also have come and is starting to go.

In this day of large screens and fast computers and multitasking OSs people decide they'd rather go back to a 1-window interface to reduce clutter, CPU/memory usage and destroy all possible multitasking between apps.

Tabs might have been great on the 8MHz, 128k mem, 9" screen Mac 128k...but today? Good lord!

You're all a bunch of single-tasking morons.

[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</p>
post #266 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by kim kap sol:
<strong>

In this day of large screens and fast computers and multitasking OSs people decide they'd rather go back to a 1-window interface to reduce clutter, CPU/memory usage and destroy all possible multitasking between apps.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm sorry all of us don't have 23" Cinema Displays.

[quote]You're all a bunch of single-tasking morons.<hr></blockquote>
If anyone's a moron it's you.

[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: EmAn ]</p>
post #267 of 358
Kids, don't make me pull this thread over....because I'm not an admin and I can't do it. But I can sure call DAD!!!


Obstinate refusal to allow tabs as OPTIONS baffles me.
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post #268 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>

One question: how would you drag and drop without it being a serious PITA not only among apps, but even within the same app? Tabs are windows within windows, and the windows are even harder to use together.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You are missing the concept. A tab is a Navigational tool. You can still do all that you now do without them.

[quote]
<strong>Does everyone else really just do work in one window at a time? doesn't anyone use even two widows at a time? doesn't anyone have their apps communicate with one another?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hughhhhhhhhhhh! When you have the need to work with two windows, you open a tab into a separate window. Duh!! Think outside the box for crying out loud.

[quote]
<strong>
Tabs make it harder to use a machine in a very essential way. I'm not willing to risk such a fundamental - possibly the only really intuitive - aspect of computer behavior.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Again, you are missing the concept of what tabs are for. Let me say it again, a tab is a tool that gives the user better management of open files by proving a visual map of what you have open from that app and a way to go straight to it without having to dance with menus and or Dock.

[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: PooPooDoctor ]</p>
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post #269 of 358
Bring back At Ease. Seriously, this has nothing to do with the convenience of a tab option. This has everything to do with its overuse by people who will in turn never ever realize the Window menu exists. Why even have it? Replace it with a tab menu.

The bottom line is tabs will push "drag & drop," multi-window usage habits, etc. out of the picture.

[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
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post #270 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>The bottom line is tabs will push "drag & drop," multi-window usage habits, etc. out of the picture.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Baloney.

Drag and drop and multi-window usage will still be extremely useful for the tasks they make more efficient, like inter-app interaction (say that ten times fast!) or cases where you have enough space onscreen or require simultaneous window availability.

For those cases where you do NOT, tabs can easily prove to be the most efficient method. We will use the method that suits us for the task at hand.

Remember, the GUI doesn't really let you do anything the CLI can't do, but it just makes certain things more efficient. So do tabs.
post #271 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>Bring back At Ease.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Gawed I hate(d) At Ease. Now there's a great example of a piece of UI doo doo. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> You can't compare what we are talking about with that, come now.

[quote]This has everything to do with its overuse by people who will in turn never ever realize the Window menu exists. Why even have it? Replace it with a tab menu. <hr></blockquote>

Eugene, you do realized the menu IS actually a multi tab UI, don't you?

[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: PooPooDoctor ]</p>
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post #272 of 358
[quote]Baloney.<hr></blockquote>

You're very trusting of the rest of the world's computer users.

Most of these people don't think twice about MDI.

Most of these people don't think twice about multi-rowed tabs.

Most of these people don't think twice about having no Mac-like menubar.

Most of these people think Trillian is the best IM client on the planet.

Most people use Microsoft Windows.

etc etc etc etc

There's no denying tabs force drag'n'drop utility and multiple windowed interfaces one layer deeper.
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post #273 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by PooPooDoctor:
<strong>

Gawed I hate(d) At Ease. Now there's a great example of a piece of UI doo doo. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> You can't compare what we are talking about with that, come now. </strong><hr></blockquote>

At Ease was tab heaven!
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post #274 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>

At Ease was tab heaven!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh my... You ARE comparing tabs with that. You need help.
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post #275 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by PooPooDoctor:
<strong>

Oh my... You ARE comparing tabs with that. You need help. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Dude, any and all tabs are the best thing since the George Foreman Grill. How can you hate At Ease?!
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post #276 of 358
Eugene, your whole stance seems to be based on the assumption that if Apple introduces tabs, you won't be able to use multiple windows.

If this were a debate on whether tabs or multiple windows were better in general the choice is clear. But it is not. The fact is we can have both hooray!



Everybodyhappy!
post #277 of 358
No, my stance is against tabs overwhelming the user interface and making multi-window navigation and organization less and less popular, as it seems to be doing at this very moment. An opened tab is quite simply one less window opened.
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post #278 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>No, my stance is against tabs overwhelming the user interface and making multi-window navigation and organization less and less popular, as it seems to be doing at this very moment. An opened tab is quite simply one less window opened.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It could never overwhelm the interface, only complement it. If you think it takes up too much space and you won't use it, turn it off. It doesn't obstruct you from using multiple windows in any way.

As far as preference goes, it will only be popular if and where it's more efficient. It's naive to think we're all embracing tabs because it's "cool". That is simply absurd.
post #279 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>

It could never overwhelm the interface, only complement it. If you think it takes up too much space and you won't use it, turn it off. It doesn't obstruct you from using multiple windows in any way.

As far as preference goes, it will only be popular if and where it's more efficient. It's naive to think we're all embracing tabs because it's "cool". That is simply absurd.</strong><hr></blockquote>

People do a lot of things because of "cool..." a lot of stupid things. It's absurd say otherwise. You've just ignored all history to make this statement.

Is Windows more efficient than Mac OS? Was Windows more efficient than Mac OS in the 80s? The 90s? You've been duped by the Mozilla group. They told you tabs were "cool."
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post #280 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>
It could never overwhelm the interface, only complement it. If you think it takes up too much space and you won't use it, turn it off. It doesn't obstruct you from using multiple windows in any way.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hello, McFly! If we were only worried about our own (non-) use of tabs we wouldn't be called "UI Nazi's".

We want to force everyone to do it our way, because consistency is good and consistency with our way is *better*.

And, more seriously, letting you guys run amok and ruin the Mac interface will not only cheapen and diminish something that we are big fans of, it *will* directly impact our computing experience in the future.

I'm not sure why people don't get this.

Interestingly a parallel UI argument is happening between fans of the Gnome and KDE desktops on Linux.

Gnome UI designers (who are big fans of Apple's work) are standardising, rearranging and slowly reducing the amount of options visible in the GUI so that newbies and non-CS student's have a chance of finding and changing their monitor settings.

They are getting an unbelievable amount of stick for this as obviously many people's pet preferences are being removed. Note that, like with Apple and the Chimera /Camino project, the code is still there, just that the preference is not exposed in the GUI.

Any Apple Geek viewing this from the outside would laugh at the KDE position (some want a pop-up box on install that asks you if the OK button should appear on the left or the right hand side of the dialog box) but I think that's where many tab fans are finding themselves now.

Options can be bad. This article is about open-source usability but the Question of Preferences section is relevant:
<a href="http://www106.pair.com/rhp/free-software-ui.html" target="_blank">http://www106.pair.com/rhp/free-software-ui.html</a>

And read how difficult it is to do simple tasks like "turning on a clock" when usability theory goes out the window.
<a href="http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/ut1_report/customization_tasks.html" target="_blank">http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/ut1_report/customization_tasks.html</a>

edit: here's a popular statement of the KDE position.
<a href="http://www.mosfet.org/configurability.html" target="_blank">http://www.mosfet.org/configurability.html</a>

[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: stupider...likeafox ]</p>
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