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Safari - tabs - done! - Page 3

post #81 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:
<strong>
except mine went one step fourther by hiding the dock by default; it would be triggered by the 'apple menu' - and slide ouit and stay there until turned off. it would fill the entire left of the screen, but maybe have text labels under each icon? IDK exactly. Current Apple menu functions would be in some sort of iconlet in the dock/menu thingy.


When i get a chance, i'll mock somethign up. it's not terribly start-menu-like... it may sound it, but it isn't...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I've just remember a cute idea I had awhile back...I mocked something up on MacNN awhile ago. Some people rejected the idea, but it was rather cool.

It'd be a system-wide behavior I'd like to see in 10.3...

It'd work like the shareware app LiteSwitch seen here:



The familiar cmd-tab key combo would bring up the overlay for active apps. But then another key combo (whatever Apple decides it should be) would bring up the active app's windows.

So instead of app icons...you'd get thumbnails + names of the app's windows. And you could keyboard through them, or simply use the mouse.

No sacrifice of screen space...no name truncation problems...added visual (thumbnails) to help with recognition of the window.

Edit: tabbed-browsing seems to be a power-user tool according to most people. I don't see mom and pops using it...they're mostly single-taskers that would freak out if you told them they could look at multiple webpages at once.

Seems like most of the tabbed-browsing interface is done through keyboard commands. cmd-t to tab etc...so I don't see why the page switching should be down via a key-combo to bring up the overlay of document-windows (webpages in Safari's case)...then either selected with the mouse or with the keyboard.

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</p>
post #82 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by kim kap sol:
<strong>

If you don't like Safari sans tabs...DON'T USE IT!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Troll on, bitch!

In other news today...

I like tabs because it makes what's onscreen more neat. You can have a few windows open, but when you are dealing with lots of documents you can use tabs. That way, you arn't constantly readjusting the windows to fit the contents onscreen.

Barto
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post #83 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Hobbes:
<strong>

Only if tabbed browsing is turned on (e.g. "Open link in new tab"), as far as I've noticed.

Some other observations: when tabbed browsing is on, command-clicking will open a link in a new tab; command-option-clicking will open the link in a new window. Command-W closes the tab, command-shift-W (or clicking the standard red close widget) closes the window. Shift-command left and right arrow toggle through tabs.

[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thnx Hobbes.

I wonder why it's taking so long to add these.
post #84 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Barto:
<strong>

Troll on, bitch!
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Eh? Can a mod tell Barto to calm down?
post #85 of 358
More observations:

Contextual menu for tab:

New Tab
Close Tab
Close Other Tabs

Reload Tabs
Reload All Tabs

* * *

Control-clicking in the tab space (where no tabs exist) will give one the option of "New Tab" "Reload All Tabs".

* * *

As noted by Think Secret, tabs reduce in size as more are added. However, unlike Chimera/Camino, there's a minimum size for a tab: 80 pixels. It won't go smaller.

There is also a strange glitch in which if more tabs are loaded than the page can hold, they just overflow, and keep going off the window. i.e., they're there, but you can't see or click on them. I suspect that's a bug and not a feature.

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</p>
post #86 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by kim kap sol:
<strong>

Eh? Can a mod tell Barto to calm down?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I will.

Barto, chill out. Completely unnecessary.
post #87 of 358
I understand, and agree with, the statement that if going to seperate websites should be seperate windows. Also, using the dock icon or window menu to switch windows *is* just as functional, and in most cases not confusing at all, as using tabs. But when I visit AppleInsider is really the only time I ever use the tabs, and mainly to save time. I usually get sidetracked here and end up wasting a lot of time, so what I do is go through and load each forum in a seperate tab. Then I load each topic I'm interested in into a new tab, and when I go through and read each thread, when I'm done, Command-W and the next tab is there. I know that this would be just the same with seperate windows, but with tabs, the window stays in the same place and I can go through fast... read, Cmd-W, read, Cmd-W, read...

Ok, so after thinking about it, tabs are pretty much just a habit. I like being able to minimize one window and having iTunes, or whatever I had to get to, right behind it. But I guess Command-H takes just as long as Command-M, and hiding the app is what I really want to do.

Crap.

Eugene.

Thanks a lot. You convinced me.
post #88 of 358
I'm not a UI expert, although I wish I was. Anyway, here's how I see things: browser interfaces and tabbed interfaces are a decent solution for web pages, but they fall apart for managing other content. Such as...

1) That of different fixed sizes (tabs either have to take up as much space as the largest thing or be resized constantly).

2) Anything that's being actively edited (they hinder drag & drop and side-by-side comparisons).

3) Handling many pages of content.

In certain common types of web browsing though , problem 3 comes up. Tabbed interfaces that I've seen deal very poorly with this. Mozilla likes to truncate tab titles until they don't exist and then run them off the side of the window. Opera likes to do much the same, except everything else in the browser starts disappearing off the side of the window too, scrollbars and all. Other great methods I've seen to deal with too many tabs include arrows with no scroll track and multiple rows of tabs. I'd like to read what Safari does when it gets 'overloaded', or apologise if someone has already posted it.

My immediate idea for a solution would be a scrollable sidebar. It can hold a theoretically infinite number of choices without trouble and be truncated to the user's preference. I can't use Safari, so I can't tell if this would conflict with something else (probably the bookmarks thing), but if that got sorted out, it might work.

I have some idea of why Apple is using tabs versus something more ideal. It's clear that Apple considers user feedback for software; however I think sometimes they're just taking Joe User's best example of what works as what they should produce. Then other times, they're showing evidence of totally unqualified personnel (hidden preview in font panel, Ken Burns effect UI). A lack of leadership in UI, or whatever this is, can't be good.
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post #89 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>

Repeat after me:

Open
Another
Window

Use
The
Window
Menu
Or
Dock
Icon</strong><hr></blockquote>

Gawwwd save me!!!!
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> You must be joking! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> You then have a window under the one(s) you already have open. Then you have to either find it via the menu (pain in the a*s) or move them aside to find the one you want (pain in the a*s).

I often like to open "links in new windows" when surfing. Why? Because I don't want to freak'n wait for the reload time when clicking the back button when I'm only temporally clicking a link and will return to the original path I was in. The best solution to multiple windows is TABS!!! Get over it if you don't surf in that manner and stop bashing those who do.
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post #90 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by PooPooDoctor:
<strong>

I often like to open "links in new windows" when surfing. Why? Because I don't want to freak'n wait for the reload time when clicking the back button when I'm only temporally clicking a link and will return to the original path I was in. The best solution to multiple windows is TABS!!! Get over it if you don't surf in that manner and stop bashing those who do. </strong><hr></blockquote>
That's exactly what I do, especially at forums like AI and that's what makes tabs very useful.
post #91 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by iBrowse:
<strong>Crap.

Eugene.

Thanks a lot. You convinced me.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The way I see it, a tabbed pane is just like a window, except:

1) To get back to a tab you either have to click on a very specific (yet dynamic) location or use a key combo. A whole separate window allows for sloppier focus most of the time, or a similar key combo...or in the case of OS X, a unified location for a list of open windows.

2) You have no freedom to position a tab to be partially visible, unless somebody adds a split pane type feature to the tab interface...and it's still more limited than having an actual separate window.

3) They have a more permanent presence in your browser since they cannot be hidden without removing them. We are conditioned to vertical separation rather than horizontal. Compare a list of items lined up in a row or a column. Which is easier to read through? Now take your browser and open 5, 10, and 15 tabs. That's what I call clutter.

Tognazzini and Raskin aren't completely crazy, though Raskin is close. There are some pretty basic UI guidelines being broken here, IMO.

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
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post #92 of 358
I have to say I'm with the "if you don't like 'em, don't use 'em" crowd. There are all these self-declared user interface "experts" here, all talking about how bad tabs are for some reason. Well, first of all, I don't understand what you guys are talking about. Second of all, you don't seem to understand that whether you like tabs or not is purely an opinion. Just because you think it's a bad UI element doesn't mean that no one should use them. I for one find them indespensible for browsing the forums here and at a number of other places. Often times, I keep one window open for each message board. So I have my AI window with a number of tabs, my Ars window, and whatever else.

Again... if you really hate tabs, then don't use them. Don't tell me not to use them.

EDIT: I have a mouse (Logitech MX700) with lots of buttons that makes navigating tabs very easy. If not for this mouse, I'd probably use a multi-window browser.

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Luca Rescigno ]</p>
post #93 of 358
One of the many UI problems with tabs has already reared its ugly head:



There *should* be ten tabs here. Where are the rest? Where is the CURRENT tab? As the window gets narrower, tabs just disappear. BAD UI. BAD!
post #94 of 358
Speaking from the human interface element, tabs may not be such a bad idea. But there are good ways and bad ways of implementing them. I like tabs, I don't like the way they are currently implemented in Safari. Some of that has to do with bugs that will be worked out, some of it is the brushed metal appearance.

From a Human Interface Design perspective, the tabs in Safari aren't implemented in the cleanest and most intuitive of fashions.
post #95 of 358
After having played with them for a while now, I'd have to agree with M3D Jack. I like the idea of tabs in a browser (interface guidelines notwithstanding, I personally find them useful), but the way they are currently implemented isn't all that great.

Of course, this wasn't even released to the public, so it may be cleaned up before it is. It is still in beta, so improvement will come...
post #96 of 358
&lt;moment of levity&gt;

Can you guys imagine Windows users taking a forum thread to THREE PAGES worth in ONE NIGHT over a User Interface issue? Ha!

&lt;/moment of levity&gt;


Now, my bitches, where were we?

Oh yeah....

I don't have a machine with a large monitor, screan real-estate is at a premium for me...ALWAYS. Kim Kap Sol asked about why someone would need to have a multitude of browser windows open....asking if we might be downloading pr0n.....

On my last project I would have to design a lot of logos on the fly. I would jump on the net and start working on finding existing signage as a basis for the vernacular of that type of product. I was jumping between a LOT of sites and working on two or three of these things at any given time. The ability to TURN ON a tabbed window behavior, a behavior of a SOFTWARE APPLICATION by the way, would have saved me time in managing all of those open windows as I showed them to the other designers and director.

Adherence to the UI is important, but golly gee I sure did use the collapsable menubar feature in IE quite a bit back when I used to run it.

I will personally look forward to switching on the Tabbed Window option in the next public release of Safari.

Woo Hoo!!
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post #97 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by robo:
<strong>Tabs can be implemented badly, or acceptably, and i see nothing horribly wrong with Chimera (or Safari's) implementation.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I disagree, as far as Chimera goes. Chimera's tabs don't clearly tell you how to close them. That is, it fails the age-old Mac philosophy of direct manipulation. (One of my complaints with drawers as well). In fact, they look and act just like static tabs you would expect in preference panes, except they magically disappear with a command-W! Very clumsy, which is not to say they aren't a big convenience, just poorly executed.

At least Safari goes a ways to address a couple of these issues, as Jonathan pointed out. In fact, I would go as far as to say that insofar as Safari's tabs are differentiated visually and functionally from standard tabs, then Apple is treading on kosher ground (nonstandard UI elements aside).

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: frawgz ]

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: frawgz ]</p>
post #98 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Brad:
<strong>One of the many UI problems with tabs has already reared its ugly head:



There *should* be ten tabs here. Where are the rest? Where is the CURRENT tab? As the window gets narrower, tabs just disappear. BAD UI. BAD!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, that's just horrible UI. As for Xidius' remark, you shouldn't have to resize the window to get access to the other tabs. Granted, most people probably aren't using that many tabs (I use maybe about 5-6 tabs at most at any given time), but the tabs should be visible.
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post #99 of 358
Could some one do me a favor and take a screen shot of the tabs with out the brushed metal? I just wanna see if they look all funny...
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post #100 of 358
damn you all....i don't have .62 to play with and i am jealous.....

as for tabs, i loved them in chimera at first...but have found that with cable and airport i don't really miss them...page loading is so fast now...i do like the bookmarks bar and use that as my tabs...if i was on dial-up i would surely miss tabs....g
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post #101 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Mount_my_floppy:
<strong>Could some one do me a favor and take a screen shot of the tabs with out the brushed metal? I just wanna see if they look all funny...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I never even thought of that, I too would like to see this.
post #102 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>
... It's like how Dodge, GM, Ford, etc. started advertising how their cars had a jizzillion cupholders tucked into every space imaginable. Is having 22 cupholders in your car really better than having 8?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

My car doesn't have any cupholders. I would like cupholders.
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post #103 of 358
Hey I wouldnt mind cup holders either... Or any space for that matter.
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post #104 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Mount_my_floppy:
<strong>Hey I wouldnt mind cup holders either... Or any space for that matter.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't even have a muffler! I wish my car had tabs.. er.. cup holders.
post #105 of 358
Yeah, but atleast when some one sits in the back seat of your car they dont have to stick their knees through their neck.. Anywyas back on topic, I have shyed away from tabs and now just command shift click the links I want to read at the time and where ever they show up I leave them and then just command tilde through them.. Simple fast NOT MDI
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post #106 of 358
Ok Eugene, I'll byte. Let's look into this UI theory.

[quote]<strong> The way I see it, a tabbed pane is just like a window, except: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Haaaa, but it isn't. A TAB is part of the browser's window. It therefore belongs inside the window. It's a temporary bookmark. This pretty much makes your 3 points irrelevant.

[quote]<strong>1) To get back to a tab you either have to click on a very specific (yet dynamic) location or use a key combo. A whole separate window allows for sloppier focus most of the time, or a similar key combo...or in the case of OS X, a unified location for a list of open windows. </strong><hr></blockquote>

You are clicking on specific locations no matter what... Menu, Doc, wherever, you are still clicking something. As for the rest of what you said.. I don't speech Greek.

[quote]<strong>2) You have no freedom to position a tab to be partially visible, unless somebody adds a split pane type feature to the tab interface...and it's still more limited than having an actual separate window. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Not sure why that is important.

[quote]<strong>3) They have a more permanent presence in your browser since they cannot be hidden without removing them. We are conditioned to vertical separation rather than horizontal. Compare a list of items lined up in a row or a column. Which is easier to read through? Now take your browser and open 5, 10, and 15 tabs. That's what I call clutter. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Remember that a TAB is a temporary bookmark, not a history bar. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> I've never had more than 5 TABS open. "Cannot be hidden without removing"... More Greek?

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: PooPooDoctor ]</p>
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post #107 of 358
What if you had like "Spring loaded tabs," sort of like the spring loaded folders released in Jaguar. You highlight some text from one page, bring it up to a tab, after a second or too it would switch to that tab, then you can drag it into a text box. Would that make some of you tab haters happier?
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post #108 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>
Use
The
Window
Menu

<hr></blockquote> That's move mouse - click - find menu item - click. Compared to tabs: move mouse short distance, click.
[quote]

Or
Dock
Icon</strong><hr></blockquote>Move mouse to Dock..... Press... wait...hear hard drive spin up ... see window menu appear.. choose window name... sling mouse back to document...
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post #109 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by adpowers:
<strong>What if you had like "Spring loaded tabs," sort of like the spring loaded folders released in Jaguar. You highlight some text from one page, bring it up to a tab, after a second or too it would switch to that tab, then you can drag it into a text box. Would that make some of you tab haters happier?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Now I think that's a cool idea

Long Live Tabbed Browsing!
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post #110 of 358
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Brad:
<strong>There *should* be ten tabs here. Where are the rest? Where is the CURRENT tab? As the window gets narrower, tabs just disappear. BAD UI. BAD!</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think that it will be the behaviour in the final version.
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post #111 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Mount_my_floppy:
<strong>Could some one do me a favor and take a screen shot of the tabs with out the brushed metal? I just wanna see if they look all funny...</strong><hr></blockquote>
post #112 of 358
Just a quick comment in the hopes that cooler heads prevail...

We are looking at code that Apple has NOT released to the public (not that much of the public doesn't have it now or will find it soon) and until Apple says different I'm going to assume the tabs we see right now are a work in progress...

For all we know... this could just be a 'quick hack' by the developers just to see how tab behave/work/whatever.

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post #113 of 358
Dave is right.

Many things about these tabs just scream "unfinished". The behavior I noted before is the first of a few bad quirks I've started to notice in v62. The current implementation just has to be a temporary hack.
post #114 of 358
I'll be happy if the tabs option stays in the debug menu.

I don't know if that makes me a UI Nazi, but I don't want the tabs affecting the rest of the UI and it gives the signal that if the power-user and basic browser features conflict, simplicity will win.

And just to say something nasty to keep up the tone of the thread:

Sounds like most tab users are so brainwashed by Windows that they've not taken the time to learn how to use OS X properly.

It reminds me of how people complained that the Zoom widget didn't cause the app to take up the whole screen, as seeing other applications leering through from the background puts some switchers off.
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post #115 of 358
try this link:

[M3D Jack - Link removed. Discussion is fine, promoting the distribution of it is not.]

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: M3D Jack ]</p>
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post #116 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Brad:
<strong>
</strong><hr></blockquote>

that is really ugly...so is the brushed metal tabbed browsing, i hope apple makes this look better some how
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post #117 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Brad:
<strong>One of the many UI problems with tabs has already reared its ugly head:



There *should* be ten tabs here. Where are the rest? Where is the CURRENT tab? As the window gets narrower, tabs just disappear. BAD UI. BAD!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hmmm, Brad: you should know better. This is a beta that hasn't even been released publicly and you're commenting on a feature which may change in the public release! I can't imagine Apple are unware of this issue and imagine that they'll solve this with the &gt;&gt; symbol as they do with the bookmarks bar and finder windows!
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post #118 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by stupider...likeafox:
<strong>
Sounds like most tab users are so brainwashed by Windows that they've not taken the time to learn how to use OS X properly.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Maybe it's the other way around-- some people are so brainwashed to be anti-Windows that they wouldn't know a good, new idea (from Windows) if it came up and bit their nose off, peed on their leg and took a dump on their terminal.

Of course, I'm speaking metaphorically.
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post #119 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by GardenOfEarthlyDelights:
<strong>...that they wouldn't know a good, new idea (from Windows) ...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Except it's neither a good or new idea.

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</p>
post #120 of 358
Two things that would improve the current tabs in Safari though:

1. The tab should extend to touch the contents of the window at least. This will give a connected look between the top 'navigation' portion and the 'content' portion.

Does that make any sense? It's nothing major but it would give a better sense of attachment between the navigation buttons and the page.

2. The 'close' widgets on the tabs shouldn't be clickable if the tab doesn't have focus. Destructive commands should not be clickable when it's not in the foreground. It pisses me off to no end when I accidently click a background window's close widget and it probably would if I accidently closed a background tab.

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</p>
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