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Apple iTunes Store to stop selling NBC television shows - Page 3

post #81 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

...I am all for protecting artists' rights, but I am also for being able to watch season one of The Office 14 years from mow if I want to.

Yup, that's what DVDs are for. That's why I have Matrix 1,2,3 on DVD, Deep Impact, Three Kings, Aliens, Tokyo Drift... Not sure if I'd want to watch a whole season or more of a show a long time down the road, though I am interested in building a complete collection of DVDs of Deep Space Nine, the *only* Star Trek I ever really got into and still like.

But who knows what will happen to DVDs. I bet most people that have an extensive LaserDisc collection are kicking themselves in the b^lls right now...

Again, I do agree that DRM is just a waste of time. It is interesting to consider however that a computer 5 years from now can probably brute-force or whatever crack this year's FairPlay or whatever else DRM. 10 years, the computer would probably think for itself and generate a cracking program on the fly. Not to say that I do not like DRM at this stage. Just that Apple's approach currently makes the most sense to me, IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post

...Apple still gets x% of profit, NBC still gets y%...

Thanks for the input, this math stuff hurts me brain nowadays. However we are assuming season x and y % are the same for new season, when it would be more like x1,y1 and x2,y2. That is, maybe not only is NBC demanding more price per episode, but also more of a cut. Or maybe Apple was demanding more of a percentage [I am not an Apple lunatic, I admit this could very well have been the case ].
post #82 of 106
Why don't these stories include links? They should be provided as a matter of habit, not an afterthought.

The press release referenced in this story can be found here:

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/08/31itunes.html

Even some of the bad bloggers provide links to other sites that they get their information from.
post #83 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

OK, I need someone to enlighten me as to why I would spend 1.99, let alone 4.99 for an episode of crappy NBC show in the first place.

I've run the math, and it seems to me that even at 1.99/show, if I watch 2 shows per day, that comes out to about 60 bucks per month, and zero flexibility.
My cable with HBO is 60/month including DVR.

Someone want to 'splain the brilliant economics of this model to me?

the ecomonics is the same that persuaded you to get cable with HBO in the first place instead of just relying on free over the air tv. Cable offers something free over the air cannot, same way, digital downloads offers something cable with HBO cannot offer. Your show when you want it on demand!!!. Sure, you could tivo with cable but you can only tivo when the show is airing!!.. example, i love stargate SG1. I have tivo but without digital download, i have to wait until the sci-fi channel rebroadcast Stargate and then, i'd have to hope they broadcasted the episode i was interested in. That's two very big conditions right there.

If there were no value in digital downloads, Itunes would not even take off. Obviously, there is value offered and i hope i just demonstrated the value to you.
post #84 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by S10 View Post

Although it looks like it, this is not about money but about the distribution of video, TV shows but especially Movies.

Apple owns the music industry download business and the music moguls hate it but there is nothing that they can do about it.
The TV/movie companies don't want to be in the same position as the music industry and are trying everything possible to weaken Apple.

But at the same time they don't have a clue on how to get the download business organised in a way they keep control over it. They are just messing around.

I know that the whole TV and Movie industry absolutely hate Apple and yes, there will be more to come or better NOT to come (like in no more new movies on iTunes)

All in all Apple has nothing to loose, if there is no more video on iTunes, they just update the software on the iPod and any type of "free" downloaded video can be played... making the iPod even more popular.

aah yes, apple condoning free downloads of video... what cannabis you smoking?. Can i have some so i could be dillusional as you are?.
post #85 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by reidconti View Post

Cool. I just sent a long and well-thought out email to the NBC address posted in the other thread (and received an email autoreply, so the address is legit) about how $1.99 is the price point where people will buy without even thinking about price but $5 is sheer greed. I detailed my age (26) marital status (single), industry I work in, and how much money I spend on electronics ($4000 on my computer in the past year, $4500 on home theater).

I explained that I won't visit a site that doesn't support Mac users, even with my Windows system (and certainly not if they require IE6 which I don't even have installed). I furthermore went into detail about how users will refuse to pay for streaming content only, or crappy DRM, or content that relies on my trust in some fly-by-night media provider to stay in business, in order for me to continue to view what I paid for.

I also explained that everyone who used to buy their shows will now use BitTorrent, or record on their DVR and skip commercials. I fall into the latter camp, as I find most P2P to be more hassle than it's worth -- especially if the alternative was paying a mere $1.99 for my fix.

Good luck, NBC! Suckers.

Why is $1.99 a good price?.. why not $1.98?.. $2.00. $1.49. $1.399887?.. why $1.99?.. is it cause apple said $1.99?.. did apple do any research that suggested people wouldn't pay more than $1.99 for a song?. Heck, people already pay $600 for their overpriced iphone.. why not more than $1.99?. Obviously, the people who bought an iphone for $600 have lots of disposable income.. i can see NBC viewpoint. Why shouldn't they get the dumb-ass mac zealots money if they willing to spend it?. The only company $1.99 video benefits is apple cause they don't care if they make money from videos..they just want to sell more video ipods.. why should nbc sacrifice profits to sell apple video ipods?. As to people not paying more than $1.99.. they already do.. people rent videos for more than that.. they buy videos for more than that, why not pay $4.99 for a video espicially when you don't have to gas up the car and take a trip to the video store?. Also if NBC does it themselves, you can bet it would be better quality than the crap itunes is pushing out. Yeah, NBC was right.. the $1.99 only benefits Apple, they lose in this equation. Well, lets see apple sell video ipods with dramatically reduced videos available for it (NBC accounted for 30% of videos sold via itunes).
post #86 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

As to people not paying more than $1.99.. they already do.. people rent videos for more than that.. they buy videos for more than that, why not pay $4.99 for a video espicially when you don't have to gas up the car and take a trip to the video store?

The DVD you rent would generally be two hours or more, whereas the $1.99 is only 22 to 45 minutes. I can rent from Netflix for an average of about $1 a disc.

Most DVD sets that I buy offer the entire series for less than that per episode.
post #87 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

The DVD you rent would generally be two hours or more, whereas the $1.99 is only 22 to 45 minutes. I can rent from Netflix for an average of about $1 a disc.

Most DVD sets that I buy offer the entire series for less than that per episode.


hmm, that's the point!!!.. NBC wanted to bundle videos for sale, in addition to increasing prices for certain videos. When you go to the video store, does all video cost the same?. has that ever prevented you from buying the video you wanted to view?. for me it hasn't. If i want to see something, i want to see it!. The video rental place also has video rentals at different prices. Blockbuster seems to be just ok with this variable pricing model. Maybe NBC should make a deal to sell it's stuff through blockbuster.com.
post #88 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

Why is $1.99 a good price?.. why not $1.98?.. $2.00. $1.49. $1.399887?.. why $1.99?.. is it cause apple said $1.99?.. did apple do any research that suggested people wouldn't pay more than $1.99 for a song?. Heck, people already pay $600 for their overpriced iphone.. why not more than $1.99?. Obviously, the people who bought an iphone for $600 have lots of disposable income.. i can see NBC viewpoint. Why shouldn't they get the dumb-ass mac zealots money if they willing to spend it?. The only company $1.99 video benefits is apple cause they don't care if they make money from videos..they just want to sell more video ipods.. why should nbc sacrifice profits to sell apple video ipods?. As to people not paying more than $1.99.. they already do.. people rent videos for more than that.. they buy videos for more than that, why not pay $4.99 for a video espicially when you don't have to gas up the car and take a trip to the video store?. Also if NBC does it themselves, you can bet it would be better quality than the crap itunes is pushing out. Yeah, NBC was right.. the $1.99 only benefits Apple, they lose in this equation. Well, lets see apple sell video ipods with dramatically reduced videos available for it (NBC accounted for 30% of videos sold via itunes).

Describing the people who buy media at the iTMS store as "dumb ass Mac zealots" suggests that you're just kinda full of shit, and whatever vehemence you are bringing to this argument is based on more than the just the relative value propositions.
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post #89 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Describing the people who buy media at the iTMS store as "dumb ass Mac zealots" suggests that you're just kinda full of shit, and whatever vehemence you are bringing to this argument is based on more than the just the relative value propositions.

I'm sorry.. you are all extremely intelligent for buying an $600 overpriced iphone whose only revolutionary feature is that it was made by apple.

Sounds better?. NBC still wants more of your money, since you seem to have a lot of it to spend. Actually, i can't believe you want to buy videos on the cheap. I mean, you think paying a lot means getting better quality, you should be jumping all over to pay more for NBC shows. When snooty windows people come up to you and talk about their ugly cheap players, you can haughtily say.. "your player sucks and is cheap.. i paid a ton of money for mine and also paid a ton of money for the video on it, hence it is a better quality video player with superior video content".

It'll show those window snobs.
post #90 of 106
BTW, a disclaimer. I've never bought music from itunes, never will buy crappy videos from itunes (and i have an ipod and also a mac computer) so i am being devils advocate here.. but I do believe NBC has the right to offer their content as they see fit. I've never heard a distributor telling a supplier what to charge for their products. If u have, please give me an example (other than wal-mart).
post #91 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

I'm sorry.. you are all extremely intelligent for buying an $600 overpriced iphone whose only revolutionary feature is that it was made by apple.

Sounds better?. NBC still wants more of your money, since you seem to have a lot of it to spend. Actually, i can't believe you want to buy videos on the cheap. I mean, you think paying a lot means getting better quality, you should be jumping all over to pay more for NBC shows. When snooty windows people come up to you and talk about their ugly cheap players, you can haughtily say.. "your player sucks and is cheap.. i paid a ton of money for mine and also paid a ton of money for the video on it, hence it is a better quality video player with superior video content".

It'll show those window snobs.

My point exactly. You are obviously inspired by some kind of animosity for whatever you imagine the motivations of Apple's customers are.

Which is fine, and your prerogative, but probably not the basis of a reasonable analysis of the situation.
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post #92 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

BTW, a disclaimer. I've never bought music from itunes, never will buy crappy videos from itunes (and i have an ipod and also a mac computer) so i am being devils advocate here.. but I do believe NBC has the right to offer their content as they see fit. I've never heard a distributor telling a supplier what to charge for their products. If u have, please give me an example (other than wal-mart).

Your rhetoric goes a little beyond "playing the devil's advocate" into "Apple people teh suxxor".

If you could leave out the gratuitous jabs at Apple's customers, arguments about NBC's behavior would seem more persuasive.
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post #93 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

hmm, that's the point!!!.. NBC wanted to bundle videos for sale, in addition to increasing prices for certain videos. When you go to the video store, does all video cost the same?. has that ever prevented you from buying the video you wanted to view?. for me it hasn't. If i want to see something, i want to see it!. The video rental place also has video rentals at different prices. Blockbuster seems to be just ok with this variable pricing model. Maybe NBC should make a deal to sell it's stuff through blockbuster.com.

Last I saw, Blockbuster does have fairly fixed rental price schedules though, a certain price for videos less than a year from release, and a lower price for older videos.

At retail, you are right, movies and TV shows are sold at several different price points, though the TV shows are almost always in complete sets, not a la carte.


Quote:
\tBTW, a disclaimer. I've never bought music from itunes, never will buy crappy videos from itunes (and i have an ipod and also a mac computer) so i am being devils advocate here.. but I do believe NBC has the right to offer their content as they see fit. I've never heard a distributor telling a supplier what to charge for their products. If u have, please give me an example (other than wal-mart).

Wal-Mart might very well be the most applicable example, because they are both the biggest fish in their respective home domains. Wal-Mart has the dominant position in physical media sales, something like 20% or more, depending on the media, I think 30% on CDs. Apple has the dominant position in downloaded media sales, at a much greater fraction, I think I've seen around 80%. I think it's easy to see why the media companies don't like this situation. I go legit for all my music and movies, but that doesn't mean I'm necessarily sympathetic to what I see as an oligarchy of content producers.

At any rate, this is a private contract dispute that the parties have decided to take public, without really providing adequate specifics. I find that unnerving because there is so little information, and spoon fed, and what little information given is spun and twisted that I fear all these opinions on the issue are completely off base. Basically, a PR game used for negotiation, playing public opinion without risking a breakdown in discussions.
post #94 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

My point exactly. You are obviously inspired by some kind of animosity for whatever you imagine the motivations of Apple's customers are.

Which is fine, and your prerogative, but probably not the basis of a reasonable analysis of the situation.

You realize i was being sarcastic right?. What basis do you have for a reasonable analysis of the situation?. Give me one example (a link to a post would be good) where you thought apple was in the wrong?. Exactly how could your analysis be reasonable if apple is always right?. If you can supply such a link to some post you made in the past where you were being reasonable, i will be a man and admit i was wrong (when i am wrong, i have no problem admitting it).

Otherwise, i am just as reasonable as you are.
post #95 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

.. but I do believe NBC has the right to offer their content as they see fit. I've never heard a distributor telling a supplier what to charge for their products. If u have, please give me an example (other than wal-mart).

Your right they do have the right to charge what they see fit, and Apple has the right to set the retail price that they will sell products for. As for the current spat between the two I would bet that there is a lot more to the story than has been released, such as a higher price built in for HD versions of the video.

You ask for an example of a retailer demanding price the price point but want one other than Wall-Mart but that is unrealistic. For the most part retailers don't have the power over the suppliers to demand a lower price, though manufacturers regularly do have that power to demand a lower price from their suppliers. Wall-Mart has changed the face of retail sales because they do have the power to demand the lower price due to their dominance in almost every market, and so they are a great example of the retailer setting the price. However, retailers regularly have "Store Brand" products which do put a downward pressure on the larger manufacturers to lower prices and those retailers do set the prices for those products. For an example of this look at any grocery chain, Best Buy, Circuit City, Sears, Lowes, Home Depot, etc, etc...

That aside, retailers regularly set the price of what they sell. They sometimes put sales prices for some products at lower than retail for some products to get people into the store so that they buy other products that are more profitable, so their net profit is larger than the loss of the single product that they sold at a loss. Auto parts stores use to do this on a regular basis with motor oil, and made the money back on filters and other parts. I imagine that they still do this, though I am not currently selling auto parts to say from first hand experience. Sure there are some manufacturers that don't allow this, but Apple is the only one that comes to mind.
post #96 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Last I saw, Blockbuster does have fairly fixed rental price schedules though, a certain price for videos less than a year from release, and a lower price for older videos.

At retail, you are right, movies and TV shows are sold at several different price points, though the TV shows are almost always in complete sets, not a la carte.




Wal-Mart might very well be the most applicable example, because they are both the biggest fish in their respective home domains. Wal-Mart has the dominant position in physical media sales, something like 20% or more, depending on the media, I think 30% on CDs. Apple has the dominant position in downloaded media sales, at a much greater fraction, I think I've seen around 80%. I think it's easy to see why the media companies don't like this situation. I go legit for all my music and movies, but that doesn't mean I'm necessarily sympathetic to what I see as an oligarchy of content producers.

At any rate, this is a private contract dispute that the parties have decided to take public, without really providing adequate specifics.

BTW, i would argue just as passionately against walmart practices. There are many people who are against wal-mart practices so i would not rush to compare apple with walmart.

As to private dispute.. i agree but apple took it public for the exact reasons you see in this forum.. to paint NBC as greedy. Maybe NBC should point out that if apple sold their ipods for less price, people would have more money to buy videos at 4.99 a pop. I think it's hypocritical of apple to point out how greedy NBC is while claiming the right to charge a premium for their name brand. NBC could make the same argument.. saying that their shows are superior to others and should be bought at a premium (and then apple should let the market decide if that is true or not). How nice of apple to look out for me.. If they really want to look out for me, drop the price of their ipods and their laptops.. i'd really appreciate that rather than this trumped up sympathy campaign apple is engaging in.
post #97 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

You realize i was being sarcastic right?. What basis do you have for a reasonable analysis of the situation?. Give me one example (a link to a post would be good) where you thought apple was in the wrong?. Exactly how could your analysis be reasonable if apple is always right?. If you can supply such a link to some post you made in the past where you were being reasonable, i will be a man and admit i was wrong (when i am wrong, i have no problem admitting it).

Otherwise, i am just as reasonable as you are.

I've gone on at length about how shitty I think the new dock in Leopard is, how terrible the Apple TV stuff looked in the stores at roll-out, and what a disaster I feel iMovie '08 to be, just to pick a couple of recent examples.

I'm not sure why you would assume I'm some kind of Apple apologist, or how you think that has any bearing on anything.
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post #98 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Your rhetoric goes a little beyond "playing the devil's advocate" into "Apple people teh suxxor".

If you could leave out the gratuitous jabs at Apple's customers, arguments about NBC's behavior would seem more persuasive.


Oh come on.. people have been attacking NBC left and right and trumpeting how virtuous apple is. I'm not even saying apple is bad. I'm just saying they are not in the right and you know what?.. apple fans need to be told sometimes that they are full of shit. Why should i sugarcoat it?.

Think about it.. how can $1.99 videos favor NBC?.. people say that NBC makes more money at $1.99 but these people are not economists.

Here is an article from wikipedia discussing price points

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_point


Actually, NBC is right. there is no way on earth the price point of a old video is the same as a new and hot video so apple is incorrect in thinking all videos are worth $1.99, but apple is framing the argument in a way to galvanize their fans. Greedy NBC wants your money!!!.. while ignoring the fact that their pricing strategy flies in the face of economics.

think of gas.. gas prices rise but people still buy gas.. while some of that behavior is due to the fact people have to actually travel.. they don't curtail their travel. In the last year, more people than ever is driving and flying and taking the trains. This is an example of where lowering the price does not equal greater demand. So if Exxon were to lower the price of gas, they would lose money unnecessarily.. that is why there is a science of price points. Ie., the price you can raise something to and increase revenue. I can assure you that even if NBC were to lose some people by raising the prices of their video (you perhaps), they would more than make up for it in extra revenue (if they did their studies right and have identified the correct price point). Even if they haven't, apple does not want them to discover the price point. By keeping videos at $1.99, NBC will never know what the best price point is. I'm sure that is what they are thinking. I'm sure if revenue decrease more than offset additional revenue, they would adjust their prices.

So NBC is right.. the only entity a $1.99/video helps is apple. That helps them sell their ipods cause they are selling NBC product at an artificial low price. How do i know it's low?.. cause they are selling old episodes for $1.99, same as new episodes.. either apple is robbing the consumers (cause there is no way in hell an old episode is worth as much as a new one.. or even an episode from a less popular show worth as much as one from a very popular show) or they are taking revenue from NBC.. ie, NBC is subsidizing the sales of Video Ipods.


Was this the kind of argument you wanted to see?.
(i'm sure a few mac fans knew this but why would they point this out?.. apple is great, everyone else is greedy).
post #99 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

BTW, i would argue just as passionately against walmart practices. There are many people who are against wal-mart practices so i would not rush to compare apple with walmart.

Oh well. In this case, I really don't see anything wrong with the comparison, even though Wal-Mart's practices may be worse, Apple's still in the same vein with regard to pressuring suppliers.

Quote:
As to private dispute.. i agree but apple took it public for the exact reasons you see in this forum.. to paint NBC as greedy.

I don't know, it could be, but that's hard to say for sure. It looks to me that the Apple PR release was in response to the NYT story. Whether someone at Apple or NBC leaked the bits to NYT, I am not sure, it could be either.
post #100 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

Oh come on.. people have been attacking NBC left and right and trumpeting how virtuous apple is. I'm not even saying apple is bad. I'm just saying they are not in the right and you know what?.. apple fans need to be told sometimes that they are full of shit. Why should i sugarcoat it?.

Think about it.. how can $1.99 videos favor NBC?.. people say that NBC makes more money at $1.99 but these people are not economists.

Here is an article from wikipedia discussing price points

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_point


Actually, NBC is right. there is no way on earth the price point of a old video is the same as a new and hot video so apple is incorrect in thinking all videos are worth $1.99, but apple is framing the argument in a way to galvanize their fans. Greedy NBC wants your money!!!.. while ignoring the fact that their pricing strategy flies in the face of economics.

think of gas.. gas prices rise but people still buy gas.. while some of that behavior is due to the fact people have to actually travel.. they don't curtail their travel. In the last year, more people than ever is driving and flying and taking the trains. This is an example of where lowering the price does not equal greater demand. So if Exxon were to lower the price of gas, they would lose money unnecessarily.. that is why there is a science of price points. Ie., the price you can raise something to and increase revenue. I can assure you that even if NBC were to lose some people by raising the prices of their video (you perhaps), they would more than make up for it in extra revenue (if they did their studies right and have identified the correct price point). Even if they haven't, apple does not want them to discover the price point. By keeping videos at $1.99, NBC will never know what the best price point is. I'm sure that is what they are thinking. I'm sure if revenue decrease more than offset additional revenue, they would adjust their prices.

So NBC is right.. the only entity a $1.99/video helps is apple. That helps them sell their ipods cause they are selling NBC product at an artificial low price. How do i know it's low?.. cause they are selling old episodes for $1.99, same as new episodes.. either apple is robbing the consumers (cause there is no way in hell an old episode is worth as much as a new one.. or even an episode from a less popular show worth as much as one from a very popular show) or they are taking revenue from NBC.. ie, NBC is subsidizing the sales of Video Ipods.


Was this the kind of argument you wanted to see?.
(i'm sure a few mac fans knew this but why would they point this out?.. apple is great, everyone else is greedy).

Fine, sure, but you seem to have a pretty relentlessly negative attitude towards pretty much everything Apple does. Is it really that rewarding to be the guy that tells Apple enthusiasts that they are full of shit, over and over again, on an Apple enthusiast discussion board?

I mean, knock yourself out and all, I'm just sayin.
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post #101 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

Oh come on.. people have been attacking NBC left and right and trumpeting how virtuous apple is. I'm not even saying apple is bad. I'm just saying they are not in the right and you know what?.. apple fans need to be told sometimes that they are full of shit. Why should i sugarcoat it?.

Think about it.. how can $1.99 videos favor NBC?.. people say that NBC makes more money at $1.99 but these people are not economists.

Here is an article from wikipedia discussing price points...

Some Math:

Heroes Season 1, HD DVD, MSRP $99.98 or $4.35/show, Amazon price $69.95 or $3.04/show

Heroes Season 1, SD DVD MSRP $59.98 or $2.60/show, Amazon price $39.99 or $1.74/show

Heroes Season 1 Pass, SD iTMS $42.99 or $1.87/show

Given these prices and the lower cost of manufacturing the download file, minus the "special features" , shipping, and advertising Apple's retail price for the downloaded file is a pretty good deal for NBC for the SD version which is actually selling for more per episode than the DVD with less extras and no physical media or shipping costs based on a real world price from Amazon. Given these figures a "reasonable" price based off of real world examples would put the SD version at the same that it is currently getting at iTMS or moving it up to a HD format would give us about $72.91 for a season pass or $3.17 a show. Now iTMS gives the consumer an earlier outlet for the purchase than a DVD does, but at a lower cost to manufacture and advertise than the DVD does and with fewer features to the consumer. A price increase should be expected if there is going to be a move to HD, but a good value for the consumer would place it at $2.99 or $3.49 an episode as a final cost.

I would imagine that there is a lot of posturing on both sides of this to get what they want, and there might be more to this than just the sales. Apple would probably like to have access to the Hula service, and NBC would probably like access to AppleTV as a quantifiable ad revenue based "on demand" stream for new shows to offset ad revenue lost to DVR timeshifiting, and put off releasing a retail version until after the season is complete. There is most likely more to the story than that as well, including both companies trying to get the upper hand in the deal. I wouldn't say that either company is an Angel here, hopefully the consumer will come out ahead.

One thing to remember with Apple is that they historically prefer single price schemes for their products, even though that may hurt them at times.
post #102 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

Oh come on.. people have been attacking NBC left and right and trumpeting how virtuous apple is. I'm not even saying apple is bad. I'm just saying they are not in the right and you know what?.. apple fans need to be told sometimes that they are full of shit. Why should i sugarcoat it?.

There's "sugar coating" a message, and then there's pouring kerosene all over the message, setting it on fire, and leaving it on someone's doorstep. Just saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

Think about it.. how can $1.99 videos favor NBC?.. people say that NBC makes more money at $1.99 but these people are not economists.

Apple actually makes this argument to the studios. They say that, given the lack of shipping and packaging costs, there are vast optimization costs to be passed on to customers. The $1.99 price was not reached randomly you realize. Apple's stance is that raising prices past $1.99 would sour demand by causing customers to question whether they will purchase something more than they would if the price was uniform.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

Actually, NBC is right. there is no way on earth the price point of a old video is the same as a new and hot video so apple is incorrect in thinking all videos are worth $1.99

Ah, hah... but you just slipped there. You're saying that "videos are videos". Apple understands that new movies are worth more than old movies or "library" or "catalog" items. Apple allows for $12.95-$14.99 pricing on new videos, and $9.99 on old videos. Television shows have no correlation. when it comes to "episodes" of TV shows or "tracks" of music, Apple has noted that uniformity on pricing removes complexity for customers. It's like walking into a convenience store and seeing three candy bars of the same volume. One candybar is 75 cents, the other is $2.50 and the other is 25 cents. This is flatly stupid and on such items, customers would likely make less purchases, due to all the excess pricing consideration being made on such small amounts of money. Really, its just stupid.

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Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

but apple is framing the argument in a way to galvanize their fans. Greedy NBC wants your money!!!.. while ignoring the fact that their pricing strategy flies in the face of economics.

Don't be silly. Nothing Apple is doing "flies in the face" of anything. Many stores employ similar notions of standardization, wherever they want customers to make purchases of small amounts. Unlike iTunes however, most brick and mortar stores need to deal with other issues like generating foot traffic (Apple uses podcasts and giveaways), and shelf space. In that digital media is a different animal, and anyone who thinks its all the same needs a dopeslap. Originally, the music industry tried services like "PressPlay" and really wanted to encourage the "subscription" and "streaming" model for music on the Internet. This failed, and continues to fail.

With more sophisticaed DRM, iTunes allowed the purchase model to be implemented, where people felt they could "own" their music. Applying this to the video market, its much the same. There is NO material cost, and so it becomes feasible to sell productions episode to episode. Sometimes this comes out to less than the corresponding DVD compilation of a season/collection, other times it comes out to substantially more (usually on older works).

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Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

think of gas.. gas prices rise but people still buy gas.. while some of that behavior is due to the fact people have to actually travel.. they don't curtail their travel.

Um, let's... let's not. Dude, you are not SERIOUSLY comparing a digital tv show file to a fossil fuel...? Are you? Such a comparison seems to display a deep deep misunderstanding, that perhaps NBC is also engaging in. Let me clue you in. Distribution pricing on the Internet is PLUNGING. Plunging. Going down, down, down, down. Downloading 2 GB of data cost substantially MORE 5 years ago than it does now, and it continues to go down. High prices on CDs have been souring people from spending for many years. This is a fact, even though production costs have been dropping substantially.

Let's take a real example. For a long time, audio cassettes have competed with CDs. When they first came out, the CD version was more expensive than the audio cassette version of a production. For instance, I purchased the Harry Potter series on audio cassette back at the start. As the years went by, I noticed that the CDs always cost much more, until this year, when the audio cassette version was finally met by the price of the CD version. Humorously, I believe the original price of the CDs was around $75, but now while the retail price is still roughly the same, the selling price is substantially less (around $45-$55 pretty much everywhere, in spite of the MSRP). This is clear evidence of an inflated cost that has more to do with other factors. Meanwhile the REAL price has gone down, to reflect cost and consumer demand. It's this type of politicing that's detrimental and illusive for consumers.

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Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

I can assure you that even if NBC were to lose some people by raising the prices of their video (you perhaps), they would more than make up for it in extra revenue (if they did their studies right and have identified the correct price point).

No. Let's try that again. What you fail to understand, is that NBC views revenue from iTunes as trivial. Trivial enough that they can afford to sour people on the market, during a series of highly destructive "tests". Analysts have been commenting that the future of content, is NOT iTunes, but in video streams. Moreover, NBC makes substantially more from streaming their shows with sponsored advertisment, than they make from iTunes sales. As NBC themselves have said, they feel that Apple only uses them to sell iPods, and that Apple needs to do more to battle piracy. As such, its more in NBCs interest to abandon the small money they gain from iTunes, and have customers transition to their "free" ad supported streams on services like Hulu. There is no REAL interest in finding the "right price point" so much as simply squeezing money out of a distribution model they feel will die away.

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Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

Even if they haven't, apple does not want them to discover the price point. By keeping videos at $1.99, NBC will never know what the best price point is.

Its $1.99. NBC isn't trying to "find" anything. Even if NBC were to vary prices over a 5 year period, no ONE price would be the result. They would simply be using variable pricing as a way to manipulate consumer spending, and perhaps generate "surges" by artificially imposing "tarrifs" and then removing them, with relation to the perfectly working system in place now.

Let's be honest here. NBC is used to determing pricing based on popularity. As movies are not a "resource", they can be copied unlimited times. Instead of the normal laws of supply and demand, as it relates to publishing, manufacturing, and shelf space, instead, very arbitrary prices are imposed on the product in an effort to relate it to the "old market" mindset. Pricing isn't even related to how much money the movie cost to make! If it did, "Superman Returns" and "Waterworld" would never sell!

BOTTOMLINE:

When Walmart evaluates a product for inclusion in their stores, they go, make their calculations, and they come back and say, "We need the product at X price. Can you do that?" If the vendor can do it, great... everyone wins. If they can't. Whoops. I guess that's a non-starter. iTunes isn't simply a bucket to piss in. It's a specific FORMAT. When iTunes introduced their DRM-free format, it was introduced as a new "product". It was pitched as a new value proposition for customers. If a publisher wants to go for this, great. If not, no one's got a gun to their head.

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Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

So NBC is right.. the only entity a $1.99/video helps is apple. That helps them sell their ipods cause they are selling NBC product at an artificial low price. How do i know it's low?.. cause they are selling old episodes for $1.99, same as new episodes.. either apple is robbing the consumers (cause there is no way in hell an old episode is worth as much as a new one.. or even an episode from a less popular show worth as much as one from a very popular show) or they are taking revenue from NBC.. ie, NBC is subsidizing the sales of Video Ipods.

Well, this is all garbage. One of the supplementary uses of iTunes has been as advertising. This has been pitched to networks and has been shown to help ratings and given shows a wider footprint. Studios have also begun doing this with Netflix, putting out "free" DVDs of upcoming shows. Moreover, iTunes is not a one-for-one crossover with DVD sales. Generally people buying episodes on iTunes were either NEVER going to buy the season on DVD, or simply wanted to "catch up" like with TiVo. I've personally refrained from buying anything on iTune that I plan to buy the DVD for later (especially with its "extra features" and such). If I DO buy one or two episodes, and I really liked the series, this would never stop me from then proceeding to pick up the DVD later. Money from iTunes is generally going to be "extra" for TV shows. It's also a very potent disincentive for people to "pirate" videos, when they can get such high quality and readily available copies on iTunes.

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Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

Was this the kind of argument you wanted to see?.
(i'm sure a few mac fans knew this but why would they point this out?.. apple is great, everyone else is greedy).

Smacks of a poor argument, sorry. NBC is trying to kill the golden goose. They have ulterior motives, and are very short sighted about how they should consider iTunes as a valuable partner. There is a serious sense of coporate penis-envy going on. In the responding press-release, NBC made very few moving statements in its defense. The comments were mostly aimed at random criticisms of Apple. Considering the deal would have automatically renewed at the same terms, it seems clear NBC didn't want to "same terms" and wanted "more" money. This lends to the veracity of Apple's only negative comment regarding NBC. An accurate one.

~ CB
post #103 of 106
wnurse, you are the perfect example of the "anti-Apple AppleZealot" that seems to be quite pervasive on these forums and many other forums nowadays. Your "breed" comes on with a lot of hate and (as a poster eloquently put it) vehemence for us "Apple fanboys" -- yet you all use (and probably like) Macs and iPods. Accept that you are leaving Windows and PCs behind, that this is in general a good thing [not the "only" thing] and you will hate us (and yourself and your "breed") less in the process. Sure, people with Macs have more money, but people with Lamborghinis and Ferraris have more... Your Mac was worth the money right? Otherwise you would have sold it by now...
post #104 of 106
[QUOTE=Cleverboy;1136296]There's "sugar coating" a message, and then there's pouring kerosene all over the message, setting it on fire, and leaving it on someone's doorstep. Just saying.

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Apple actually makes this argument to the studios. They say that, given the lack of shipping and packaging costs, there are vast optimization costs to be passed on to customers. The $1.99 price was not reached randomly you realize. Apple's stance is that raising prices past $1.99 would sour demand by causing customers to question whether they will purchase something more than they would if the price was uniform.

Yes, $1.99 was not reached randomly but that misses the point. How can apple prove that increasing it beyond $1.99 would sour demand?. That's why price point needs to be determined. At the end of the day, this is still NBC assets. If they chose lower demand but higher revenue, who is apple to disagree?. You assume lower demand automatically equals lower revenue but that is not true or else every company would sell their products for a penny (that's a pretty low price right?.. should send revenue through the roof).

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Ah, hah... but you just slipped there. You're saying that "videos are videos". Apple understands that new movies are worth more than old movies or "library" or "catalog" items. Apple allows for $12.95-$14.99 pricing on new videos, and $9.99 on old videos. Television shows have no correlation. when it comes to "episodes" of TV shows or "tracks" of music, Apple has noted that uniformity on pricing removes complexity for customers.

Of course uniformity on pricing removes complexity for customers, duh!!!. If all cars were sold at the same price, that would remove complexity for customers too!!!. That is not the point. NBC is not interested in whether the customer has a uniform experience, they are interested in revenue. The only company price uniformity helps is apple, thus you make my point. Apple gains from this, NBC loses.

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It's like walking into a convenience store and seeing three candy bars of the same volume. One candybar is 75 cents, the other is $2.50 and the other is 25 cents. This is flatly stupid and on such items, customers would likely make less purchases, due to all the excess pricing consideration being made on such small amounts of money. Really, its just stupid.

Wow, candy companies would sure like to hire you right now!!!.. they must be surprised by your analysis. They thought there were doing pretty well until you made your analysis.

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Don't be silly. Nothing Apple is doing "flies in the face" of anything. Many stores employ similar notions of standardization, wherever they want customers to make purchases of small amounts. Unlike iTunes however, most brick and mortar stores need to deal with other issues like generating foot traffic (Apple uses podcasts and giveaways), and shelf space. In that digital media is a different animal, and anyone who thinks its all the same needs a dopeslap. Originally, the music industry tried services like "PressPlay" and really wanted to encourage the "subscription" and "streaming" model for music on the Internet. This failed, and continues to fail.

Many stores employ similar notions of standardization?. which stores?. What store sells all their products in a specific category for the same price?. Are you dumb or just pretending to be dumb?.




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Smacks of a poor argument, sorry. NBC is trying to kill the golden goose. They have ulterior motives, and are very short sighted about how they should consider iTunes as a valuable partner. There is a serious sense of coporate penis-envy going on. In the responding press-release, NBC made very few moving statements in its defense. The comments were mostly aimed at random criticisms of Apple. Considering the deal would have automatically renewed at the same terms, it seems clear NBC didn't want to "same terms" and wanted "more" money. This lends to the veracity of Apple's only negative comment regarding NBC. An accurate one.

NBC ulterior motive is more profit. I thought we were living in a capitalistic society, not a communist one. All companies have the same motives, even apple. Minimize cost, maximize profits. How lovely of apple to limit NBC profits for consumers benefit. Thanks Uncle Stevie. Now, can I have an 4GB ipod for $99?. Why don't apple limit their profits and stop telling everyone else how much profit they can make. I'm more interested in a $900 mac laptop than some frigging $1.99 tv episode!!.
post #105 of 106
You know, when i first started raving about how apple overpriced their computers, mac fans defended the company decision by saying that they needed the revenue to be able to create more products.. some actually said the quality justified the markup.

I wonder, now that apple is swimming in money, do they still need the money?.
I really get pissed when apple start pontificating about how other companies want more money but they continue to insist on an extremely high margin on their computers. How hypocritical!!!. Apple better be careful, as they get bigger, it will be harder for them to justify making obscene amounts of money on their products while bashing everyone else for trying to do the same. Americans in general are very forgiving but one thing i know, Americans do not stand for hypocrisy. I understand apple fans will love and worship Jobs (and why shouldn't they?.. he practically saved apple by himself) but the general public does not have the same love for Jobs and all they see is a company trying to bully other companies. After ranting and raving against microsoft for it's monopolostic behavior, apple now finds that it's convinient to do what microsoft would do. I guess the goal is rant and rave against the powers until you become a power. If some other company were to create a totally new operating system with ease of use as macOSX with decent pricing, i would buy their products in a flash. I used to be a hardcore mac fan who was willing to pay the prices but now, what is the friggin excuse... really, can someone explain to me why apple still need the ridiculous high margins on their products?. They are not a company in danger anymore. They may soon rival microsoft in revenue. As a person who helped keep this company afloat when it was fighting to stay alive by buying their products, i feel like i should be rewarded. Maybe apple should have special pricing for repeat customers or long term customers (they surely have a database of people who used to buy their products when they were on the brink of extinction).

That is my beef really. This is why i am sour on apple now. Why the hell should i buy their overpriced iphone.. let the windows converts pay that ridiculous price..

What is more amazing to me is how the mac faithfull keep paying through their arses year after year without any complaints. No one is recognizing the absurdity of the situation?.
Berating NBC for being greedy but praising Apple for making as much money as they can?.
Isn't the excuse apple can price their products higher than competitors cause people would buy at that price?. Now NBC is being told they cannot price their products above $1.99 even though people would buy at a higher price?. Look at apple, they voluntarily choose to limit demand for a certain profit level (if they lowered mac prices, it would spur demand) and now they are telling NBC that demand is more important than maximizing revenue?.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!!!.
post #106 of 106
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Originally Posted by Animaniac View Post

Talk about owned.

Apple just handily bested NBC Universal. Not only does NBC look like complete assholes for wanting three times wholesale, but now NBC's fall season has taken a huge setback. Shows like The Office and Heroes were popularized by (at least in part) by iTunes. Given that NBC is launching significantly more shows than usual this upcoming season, Apple just hit NBC right where it hurts. NBC was hoping they could take advantage of their shows being available on iTunes through December to build audiences for their new programming, but now NBC is left out to dry. NBC's fall programming builds on the success of shows like The Office and Heroes targeting a similar audience. Without iTunes, NBC stands to suffer greatly this fall.

Well played, Apple. Well played.

Could NOT agree more! I'm getting sick & tired of these millionaires complaining about revenue for a show that is available FREE on tv. They make buck on ads and iTunes & dvds were once considered gravy, but now they're getting waaaaaay too greedy. $5 dollars for a free tv show?! I was about to complain about $1.99. I liked the 99 cent idea. The real die-hard fans will buy the dvd series box sets anyway. The iTunes dls are a great way to catch up if TIVO goes wacko (which happens more times than I'm happy about). But, why pay more than 40 bucks for dls only to pay 50 or 60 when the box set drops?! Talk about charging me twice!

And these suits continue to scratch their heads over why p2p is still so rampant? $5 dollars/show for NBC?!

No thanks...I'll go back to the internet for free.
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