Apple unveils iPod touch and iTunes Wi-Fi Music Store - Page 8

I'm only talking about one feature... an iPod that can stream.

And I would hardly say that the Touch fits in with the idea of 'fewer features'... I mean... it's a music player with a web browser for god's sake.

Finally... what I am talking about has been available... FROM APPLE... for years... in a slightly different form. For years now you've been able to buy airport stations that can hook up to an audio system so that you can stream music from iTunes on your Mac to any room in the house. All I'm talking about is having an iPod do the streaming instead of your Mac... so if you're on the back deck and you want to change the music... you just pick up your iPod... you don't have to go in the house... down the stairs... down the hall... to the computer room... etc... to change the music.

Also, the whole iPod as remote thing was just an idea that came about as a result of this thread. That was never my idea. So with all the back and forth arguments and suggestions... things have become confusing.

My original idea was just an iPod (any iPod with a screen... classic, touch, whatever) that can stream via WiFi and/or Bluetooth. It might stream to your livingroom stereo... or to your exercise room stereo... or to wireless bluetooth headphones (people have been asking for this for years)... or to the stereo system at your workplace... or to a bluetooth enabled car stereo... etc. I know battery life might be an issue... but the classic 160 GB now has 40 hours! I'd be happy with 10 hours streaming or 40 hours without streaming.

I do think this might happen at some point. An iPod that can use wireless headphone or speakers, etc. just seems like a no-brainer to me.

No, I'm obviously talking about the iTouch, which is what you keep pushing for this.

Solved. I just wish Apple would build in bluetooth so we don't have to rely on 3rd party add ons.

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/sp...s/244&cl=us,en
http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProdu...duct_Id=297313
http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/bluetrip/

I feel almost sorry for Takeo. Are some of you guys trying NOT to understand him? Like only reading every second word and filling in the blanks with your own? What's all the nitpicking about? He was even giving an existing *example* (i.e. the Sonos) of what he wanted to do with the iTouch and gets a
in return. To qoute a certain CEO: "It boggles the mind." [that it's so hard to understand]

Further, what's so incredibly hard to understand with this concept?

1. I have a lot of music. Choosing songs etc when away from the computer would be nice but an Apple Remote won't do since forward/back won't suffice when choosing my Jazz playlist or a particular song.

2. Why would I want a TV when I have a small WiFi-enabled screen in the iPod touch I can bring to whatever room I want? No, really. Why?

Juding by internet forums/foras where conversations *often* (uttered with some carefulness) resemble spoken language Paul Grice would probably like to revise his maxims for the internet age and check that cooperative principle again.

I like Takeo's ideas. In fact, they've been suggested many times, on this forum no less, in the past. People have been hoping to see something like this for a while.

I think Apple should do both: enable streaming straight from the iPod, but also enable it to work as a remote control for iTunes running on a Mac or PC. Then you could use PC/Mac + Airport Expresses + iPod touch as a Sonos equivalent, except it would be cheaper and have a cooler remote. Using the iPod just as remote instead of the streaming source would mean the iPod's battery would last longer.

Thanks guys.

A few followups from research I've done.

1. Sonos does not support Fairplay or Apple Lossless files. So anything you bought from the iTunes store won't work (unless you burn a CD and re-rip to get around Fairplay... not an option if you have 1000's of Fairplay songs). The Fairplay thing wouldn't affect me since 99.9% of my music library (close to 4000 songs) is ripped from my own CD's. I ripped it all to Apple Lossless... but I could convert everything (ugh). The reason for this is that Sonos does not use iTunes. It imports all of your music into it's own jukebox software. So you end up with two copies of your music library. This would lead to synchronization nightmares as well as take up twice as much HD space. Not cool at all!!! It's also really expensive. So as cool as Sonos is... the lack of iTunes integration (not to mention the price) is a complete deal killer for me.

2. I researched a bunch of 3rd party bluetooth options yesterday. A few are just for wireless headphones but Belkin, Griffin and Logitech offer solutions that can hook up to a stereo system. Of those, the Belkin TuneStage II is clearly the best. It's the only one that uses Bluetooth 2.0. As a result, it has greater range (up to 100 ft), virtually no noise (the others all have noticeable noise according to reviews) and almost CD quality sound. The review I found said that 98% of people would not be able to tell the difference between a CD and a TuneStage streamed song.

So... I either keep waiting for Apple to give us a bluetooth enabled iPod... or I finally buy my first iPod... the 160 GB classic (finally... an iPod big enough to hold my entire library in lossless format!!!!!!) and add the Belkin TuneStage II to it. As for battery life... the TuneStage transmitter uses the iPod for power... but with the new iPod Classic 160 offering 40 hours of playback... I'm not too worried about battery life.

One solution for control only is an app like Salling Clicker. Checking their forum it seems others are thinking the same. Works great on both my SE phone and my Dell Axim x50v (BT or WiFi - available for Palm as well), albeit not the "transparent" app as one would *hope* an iTouch dito would turn into (or compared to the Sonos, for that matter). Still, it's quite an amazing little app.

Edit: I really do hope an iPod touch version will eventually turn up, though. Something like the TuneStage et al at least *feels* as if it would "only" be a piece of software away for the iTouch (If it's using WiFi, that is).

just a bit offtopic from where the discussion is...
but possibly way back on topic?

I'm almost surprised that Apple didn't make the iPod touch more iPhone like. ie: make it everything except a phone (but also use bluetooth to connect to your mobile phone). That way when at home it could have used wifi, and when out and about it could use your existing mobile phone to connect to the net, or even to make a phone call.

Such is life

I don't think you researched very well:


True


Not true. (The Sonos players natively support Apple Lossless, it was added in a firmware update a long time ago).


Or, if you've got a PC, you could use QT Fair Use to get rid of the DRM.


Not true. The Sonos uses SMB networking. So, you just share your Mac drive containing the iTunes music folder using OS X's built-in SMB sharing, and that's it.


True. I think the biggest drawback is that the system has only one remote (you can use more than one, but the remotes are really expensive). What if you've one person in one room, and someone else in a different room? With only one remote, one of those people isn't going to be able to control their music.

Have you investigated the Roku SoundBridge? Not as cool as Sonos, but much cheaper.

I understand what he's saying.

But, he didn't say all of that in his first post. He kept adding requirements as the posting went on. So there was plenty of room for confusion as to what he wants, and as to what he imagines he wants.

There have been whole house music controllers around for a very long time, going back to the '60's. There are several incredible products available now, which use a central repository for all your content, which can be controlled all over the house, and outside as well, even allowing several people to chose different content to play in different places at the same time. But, these systems can be expensive.

What I'm trying to do is to help understand, for myself, as well as for him, what can ACTUALLY be done, rather than what would be NICE, if it could be done, but can't, at this time.

Perhaps you didn't read what I said to that effect.

As he seems to be wedded to the idea that he wants to do this with the iTouch, which, at this time CAN'T do this, I'm trying to see if we can help him find a way to do at least part of it. The Sonos doesn't do it either for him, or none of this would have been asked by him in the first place. At least that's what I can see from his complaints. And yes, they are complaints.

I've also suggested that it might be possible at some future time, to d this with the iTouch, as third party developers will likely add the functionality.

But, that still won't solve the storage problem for him. The point being that the iTouch won't be able to do what he want to do with it.

Is that so hard for you to understand?

I guess we interpreted what was said a bit differently. I felt, for example, that you were going on about the Apple TV - with a TV or monitor, no less - like there was no tomorrow (yes, I might be exaggerating) when, to me, clearly that wasn't the solution that was asked for. As a part of the solution, maybe. What I couldn't figure out was what was so bad (bad, yes, because that's the feeling I got with all the nitpicking retorts, page after page) about his idea when the iPod touch is almost - on paper, at least - ideal for this (a kind of Sonos copycat if you want): either as only a visual aid and remote control for your computer/Apple TV or even, with its own smaller collection, directly streaming to a wireless device connected to the setup of your choice. Complaints or constructive critisism? I just thought it was a nice idea.

As far as technology goes we've had the Airport Express for years. The only two things that's been "missing", IMHO, is a visual aid (enter Salling Clicker) for picking music and video streaming (until Apple TV entered the scene). As for myself a version of Salling Clicker for iTouch would be enough but that doesn't mean everyone else wants the same thing. That solution would actually be kind of an "Apple Sonos", if you want. The Salling Clicker solution very much CAN be done, only it's not available for the iTouch. You'd have to resort to your PDA (Palm/PPC) or mobile phone for now.

As for the device itself doing the streaming from "its own" collection, storage wise, of course you're right but then again he seems fine with the Sonos solution (besides the cost of it all...), hence my hope for the developers of Salling Clicker looking long and hard into the iTouch.

Anyhow, l won't divulge further into this as it's all turning into semantics and I'll probably just confuse things even more. We all have different needs and have different approaches when we try to find a solution to get there, that much is clear.

The entire problem here is that he wants the iTouch to do this. But the iTouch can't do this.

Sometimes we have to make a compromise. If something we want to do can't be done, we must look at other solutions. Sometimes those other solutions are not ideal. But sometimes they are the ONLY solutions.

The problem we find then, is that those imperfect solutions are the only way to do what we want, even if they don't do it all.

He first wanted to listen to music in one room, when the computer was in the other, and he didn't want to get up to change something from the other room. That's all we knew. He wanted to do it with the iTouch, but the iTouch can't do it.

I then asked why the ATv wouldn't serve that function, because that was what it was designed for. I was under the impression that his Tv and audio system were in that same room. Problem solved!

But, no, it wasn't. He added other requirements each time we posted. You came in at the end of the process.


You see, you're now having the same problem with the idea that I was. What he wants to do, can't be done.


He's not fine with the Sonos because it won't work with all of the files.


I'm hoping you see why it was all so confusing.

the ipod touch rulesss!!!

Hey melgross... the reason my "needs" seemed to keep changing was because people were throwing in other ideas as the thread went on which gave me other ideas. I'm not sure why everyone seems to care so much.

Anyway... I may get a 160 GB iPod Classic and a Belkin TuneStage II. Having an iPod big enough to hold all my music and stream it to my stereo was all I ever really wanted. I've been wanting such a solution for years!... long before the iPod Touch was even a glimmer in Steve Jobs eye. The biggest obstacle was always storage space... since I like to keep everything in Lossless format. With that solved... I now just need a streaming solution. It doesn't look like Apple is going to add streaming anytime soon.. but the Belkin product gives me that... so... problem solved.

Anyway, maybe we can go back to talking about the iPod Touch? Sorry to get things so off topic.

We care!

Hey we had a great time with it. Don't be sorry. It got us up and jumping.

I know Steve said by the end September and that the Apple Online Store says "by September 28th," but do we have anything else to go on but that? That makes it seem like they'll ship literally as soon as they can. Is there any idea when they'll hit Apple Retail Stores? Or have some already?

Seems more like what you're trying to do is rain on his parade rather than actually help him accomplish/understand his goal.

The iPod Touch as a function of having Safari and 802.11 can do what he wants to do. He can do a Sonos like system with a Mac, AirTunes (Airport Express) and anything that controls iTunes via a web page (WebRemote, CoverBuddy, PatioTunes, etc)

Here's something that even allows streaming from an iPhone and would likely work with the iPod Touch.

http://blog.dottunes.net/blogarticle...24F6EED3E550E2

Previous notes indicate that it works with AirTunes.

http://digg.com/apple/New_iTunes_Air...Remote_Control

Here is a comparison of Sonos with the CoverBuddy+AirTunes setup.

http://geekwithfamily.com/2006/08/15...c-store-songs/

Since CoverBuddy has a web interface the odds are it works out of box with the iPod Touch.

To quote Buzz Lightyear: CAN!

Vinea

I have to say that you are good at one thing particularly, misunderstanding others' motives. At least you're consistent at it.



Here's something that even allows streaming from an iPhone and would likely work with the iPod Touch.

http://blog.dottunes.net/blogarticle...24F6EED3E550E2

Previous notes indicate that it works with AirTunes.

http://digg.com/apple/New_iTunes_Air...Remote_Control[/quote]

You know that both items above are the same?


It says the PSP. We don't know if it works with the iTouch yet, or how well. There wasn't much info there.

Misunderstanding your negativity? You said it can't be done a half dozen times.

Why continue to be negative after I showed that you COULD do it from any web browser? Any subsequent discussion of Sonos like capability should have been an easy google for "AirTunes Web control"

Boom...CoverBuddy.

So why continue with the negativity EVEN IN THIS POST? You want to not admit that you were wrong so bad that you're still willing to rain on his day in the face of multiple web based solutions that does what he wants to do?


Yes, that is why I said "Previous notes indicate that it works with AirTunes". I included that because the current focus is on iPhone streaming and doesn't talk about its AirTunes control functionality.

Their web page kinda sucks (info wise...a screen shot would be nice guys) but the product looks intriguing. The streaming part also helps him with the limited space on the iPod touch. If he can stream his library to his iPod Touch like they can do for the iPhone then he's got all the storage he needs as long as he has a network link.

Boom.


It's a web based system if you actually bother to look at the thing rather than continue to be a nay-sayer. The guy has a 5 part series on how he built his system and there's a link to the CoverBuddy site as well.

But here you go Mr Doubter:


http://www.joedunn.com/?q=node/80

CAN!

Vinea

It's your nastiness in assuming that I'm trying to "rain on his parade", which is ridiculous.

You could instead, just say that you found some products that look to do what he wants to do. You didn't even have to respond to me, as you love to do, you would have done us all a service if you simply responded to his last post, since he's the one you're supposedly trying to help, rather than actually not caring about him at all, but are more interested in doing what you can to try to show me up instead. Though you're usually wrong.

This time you found some interesting stuff. Good for you! You've finally done something useful.

LOL. "Rain on his parade" is not a motive it's the outcome. Your motive is your own although I did venture a guess on why.


I did that several posts ago with the link to a free PHP control program.


I wouldn't have bothered addressing you at all except for your negativity with Blip. The Can't, Can't, Can't started to bug me. Who made you the final arbiter on what the iPod Touch can and cannot do? It wasn't a matter of showing you up as much as correcting disinformation.

As far as caring...jeez, this is an internet forum. At least I cared enough to do a 2 second search before pontificating that something can or cannot be done.


You're too funny Mel. Just like the useless stuff on NANDs which you steadfastly argued would never drop in price this year? Ooops.

You know that the forum has an ignore feature. You never have to read a thing I write ever again. Buh bye!

Vinea

Folks, play nicely. That's an order - or I'm sending down Ensign Redshirt with phasers set to "wet noodle".

Aah, can you smell the fresh air that's the confined, damp and at times hot, at times cold space of the internet forum, in turn connected to inumerable spheres of "context of reference" from within which users pick their words. Sometimes these contexts connect and sometimes they simply won't.

Anyhow, we're not indifferent to the iTouch, that's for sure. For Apple indifference could be worse than if we simply hated it.

I'm contemplating whether I should get one or not (i.e. do I want this result or not: Traveling funds 0 - iPod touch 1) but the needle is currently pointing towards "Get" since I have a thing for all-in-one solutions well done (we'll see when the reviews start dropping in but I love the concept of the iPhone, only I don't want the phone/camera). I have an old Dell Axim x50v and for some reason its hardware is still one of the best out there for PDA but I'm just not friends with the interface/GUI (I'm currently trying out the unofficial Win Mobile 6 version) and then there's the whole sync issue (I'm aware of Missing Sync et al). The iTouch will probably win me over, hopefully feeling more coherent and generally more responsive. So to all the iPhone hackers up for making some apps for the iTouch: Go! Go! Go!

Again, you either, out of ignorance, or sheer willfullness, misrepresent my position. I NEVER said that those prices wouldn't drop this year. I said that they wouldn't drop to the extent that you said they would, and so far, they haven't.

We all know they're dropping.

Really? They haven't? Odd because even the store that you used as a benchmark now offers the Samsung 1.8" 32GB micro-ATA SSD for $509. Sold out at the moment.

Samsung 2.5" 32GB are $749.

SanDisk 1.8" 32GB ZIF is $575.

32GB ExpressCard SSDs are only $489.

http://www.dvnation.com/nand-flash-ssd.html

Prices are here buddy and denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

Should drop even more if Apple has moved from the older NAND to Samsung's new NAND and as Toshiba's production hits its stride and provides 2Gb NAND to SanDisk. Have to see about the fat nanos. I think they have but until I see part numbers hard to know for sure. But if they have, suddenly all that flash that went toward Nanos is now available for the Samsung SSDs.

Under $600 for 32GB SSD...not even OEM but RETAIL. Shipping today as Jobs might say. Whether it was shipping in August which was 6 months after that thread I dunno...I didn't check. It may amaze you but I don't much care about you or think about you at all even here except when the odd posting strikes me as incorrect.

$300 for 32GB by the end of the year very probable for OEMs as projected by Toshiba. Possibly that's the current pricing depending on the margins for the retail parts.
Heck...we're at $489 retail for 32GB. SSD margns are not what one would traditionally call anemic even if NAND pricing has been in freefall.

Oh...for reference your estimates of flash pricing in 2007:


So yet again. CAN!

V

PS For the record, both Toshiba and Samsung slipped production by a month or two (from what were expecting in March). In time for the new iPods but not in time for the iPhone although the expectation is that the 16Gb iPhone is on its way.

Except that you were claiming $350 for 32 Gb before now. I was claiming MAYBE $600 by now. Who is closer?

LOL. You were claiming $1200 by now. Read your own post. Jeez. Trying to claim my position in order to pretend to be "right" is just plain silly when you can click the link and see exactly what you were arguing in March.

Where Teno and I were wrong about is what Apple would do for the iPhone launch. They didn't up the memory or lower price in favor of higher launch margins. They choose to do the price drops now instead (a mere two months later...pretty much on the 6 month mark). Notice the $200 price drop you have previously stated you didn't expect? Notice the expectation of a 16Gb version soon?

And regarding $350 for 32GB yes, that's happened already and it happened back in the March to boot. To OEMs as stated and jeez, you're still claiming it never will happen even though RETAIL pricing is a mere $500 now. Yah think that 32 GB SSDs are really costing OEMs more than $300 right now?

$300 retail by end of 2007 was another prediction and it's possible. 15% decline in prices in June alone although prices are going to stabilize for the new NANDs. However, if Nanos, iPod Touch and iPhones move to the new NAND then all those old parts are freed and those "old" parts from 2006 are exactly the same ones we see in the 32GB SSDs.

29 new fabs came online in 2007. Including Samsung's new 300mm NAND fab in Austin.

I understand that the iPod Touch doesn't come with the Mail application. If you've just got to have the mail app, you can always buy and iPhone and not activate it on the AT&T net, then you've pretty much got a iPod Touch with wifi, but with mail!!

Safari can access any web based email you want.

[QUOTE=m00nchild;1137187]
http://www.apple.com/ipodclassic/

Here's what Apple should really do to win. Invest in MiFi, connecting your iPod touch to your home computer using iTunes and then stream ANYTHING on your home computer's drive. That way, the iPod wouldn't even need an expensive storage solution, they could massively up the battery capacity (or hell add a new one) and just have a good 1gb of internal memory for the OS and buffering songs or videos. The net will be wireless everywhere soon, it's the only natural future. Server side processing is super important if you want the client to be sleek, sexy and seem 600% more powerful than it is.

When there are things on the radio that aren't on your mp3 player like morning talk shows, sports games, traffic reports, weather, news, etc. Plus, where do you hear new music if all you ever listen to is the music you've already got?

Many thanks for the CoverBuddy tip. Yup... you could use it's web interface to stream the iTunes library on my home computer to my home stereo via AirTunes / AirPort. Pretty cool.

I have to say tho'... compared to the native iPod interface... CoverBuddy's web interface is clunky. Which it would be of course... bring a web app. It works... and it's cool... but it ain't like flying thru a huge list with the clickwheel or touch... or using coverflow. Still... it only costs 20 bucks... and it would mean I could go with an iPod Touch since I wouldn't need an iPod big enough to hold all my music. Tempting.

Still... I think my solution is going to be a 160GB iPod Classic + Belkin's TuneStage II Bluetooth streaming device. I would prefer to use the native iPod interface and it would still be nice to be able to carry my entire music collection with me in my pocket. I currently don't own any iPod (and never have).