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College Courses and AP Credit

post #1 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Send a donkey to college and you'll get a "smart ass". Are you back in school, Bob? Why aren't you doing your homework?

Yes, High school, and I'm not doing my homework because A.) My classes are really easy (I'm a junior), B.) I already finished (It was roughly 10:15 PM when I posted), and C.) This is so much more important.

Oh, and just for the record, Easy classes:

AP English Lang/Comp.
AP European History (the only one that actually makes me try)
Italian 3 AND 4
AP Chemistry
AP Calculus BC
AMPS (Advanced Math Problem Solving)
Cross Country (not really mentally stimulating, but takes up a good 2-2.5 hours when I could be working on the above)
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post #2 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post

Yes, High school, and I'm not doing my homework because A.) My classes are really easy (I'm a junior), B.) I already finished, and C.) This is so much more important.

It may be, but rubbing elbows with AI members may cause you to develop some terrible vice. Why don't your parents have a V-chip on your computer?
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post #3 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post

Yes, High school, and I'm not doing my homework because A.) My classes are really easy (I'm a junior), B.) I already finished (It was roughly 10:15 PM when I posted), and C.) This is so much more important.

Oh, and just for the record, Easy classes:

AP English Lang/Comp.
AP European History (the only one that actually makes me try)
Italian 3 AND 4
AP Chemistry
AP Calculus BC
AMPS (Advanced Math Problem Solving)
Cross Country (not really mentally stimulating, but takes up a good 2-2.5 hours when I could be working on the above)

Good schedule. What's your major? Or what will it be when you go to University? Which university? What is Cross Country? Like skiing? Why Italian? Are you planning on living there? Great place to visit. BTW, Rosetta Stone (language program - not the emulation or whatever) is good for learning languages. I've used it for learning French and Spanish. It's comparatively expensive, but maybe you could find a cute coed who has a copy and study together.
Tomorrow's a school day. Go to bed. I guess you get that from your parents a lot.
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post #4 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

BTW, Rosetta Stone (language program - not the emulation or whatever) is good for learning languages. I've used it for learning French and Spanish..

I've heard mixed reviews of Rosetta Stone. It is pretty pricey...can you elaborate more?

Vinea
post #5 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

I've heard mixed reviews of Rosetta Stone. It is pretty pricey...can you elaborate more?Vinea

It's been quite awhile since I used it. What I liked about it is it's like the Berlitz method of total immersion. You don't translate into English; you learn what the words mean. You see a book, but you don't think book. You think 'libra' or whatever it is in that language.

The program shows you pictures and tells you aloud in French ( or in Spanish or ...) how to say it. You repeat what you hear. You can do this over and over listening to the speaker and repeating until you think you have it. Of course, it starts out crawling, but as you progress, it gets you up on your feet running.

In college Spanish (and English Poetry) , I had to repeat some phrases over and over. Today, many years later, I can toss those sentences off without thinking about them. The repetition evidently embeds it in your brain. Furthermore, the repetition by the speaker becomes easier and easier to "hear" and understand. Eventually, your ear hears the words which then register.

If you're listening to a foreigner speaking in his language, it is difficult to hear individual words and you're so busy translating that you fall behind. In Rosetta Stone, you stop translating and start understanding the meaning of the words.

It's difficult to explain the concept in just a few paragraphs. Try Googling. You'll probably find a better explanation than mine.
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post #6 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
It may be, but rubbing elbows with AI members may cause you to develop some terrible vice. Why don't your parents have a V-chip on your computer?

I don't think my parents even know what a v-chip is. Also, I bought this computer with my own money. And I would have to tell them how to do everything with the v-chip, which would very easily allow me access to it and make it relatively useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Good schedule. What's your major? Or what will it be when you go to University? Which university? What is Cross Country? Like skiing? Why Italian? Are you planning on living there? Great place to visit. BTW, Rosetta Stone (language program - not the emulation or whatever) is good for learning languages. I've used it for learning French and Spanish. It's comparatively expensive, but maybe you could find a cute coed who has a copy and study together.
Tomorrow's a school day. Go to bed. I guess you get that from your parents a lot.

Aerospace Engineering... not for sure, but that's what I'm thinking right now.
ISU, possibly a nice school like MIT or caltech depending on what kind of scholarships I would get
Cross country is running... 5K race (3.1 miles) Although I do enjoy cross-country skiing... I'm actually surprised that you didn't know what this is.
Italian- because I wanted to be different, and my school offers Italian, German, Japanese, and Chinese (It's a magnet school and they figure the home school would offer French and Spanish, but my home school is inhabited by complete morons...) Also, it is a really beautiful language.
My school has a lab FULL of G4s running Rosetta Stone. Although there are some cute coeds in my Italian class of around 30...
And besides, 11 is a perfectly respectable bed time when I don't have to get up till 7.

But enough detracting from the thread at hand (although any thread with over around 30 posts starts to go completely off topic soon enough).
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post #7 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post

Cross country is running... 5K race (3.1 miles) Although I do enjoy cross-country skiing... I'm actually surprised that you didn't know what this is.
).

I do know what cross country skiing is. My daughter does it. You just mentioned 'cross country'. I was unaware that it was a high school subject, and I wasn't sure you meant skiing. You must live in snow country. Brrrrr. I left snow country at 15 and never looked back.
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post #8 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

I do know what cross country skiing is. My daughter does it. You just mentioned 'cross country'. I was unaware that it was a high school subject, and I wasn't sure you meant skiing. You must live in snow country. Brrrrr. I left snow country at 15 and never looked back.

Running Running Running!

Not

Skiing Skiing Skiing!

I'm a cat and even I know that.
post #9 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duddits View Post

Running Running Running!

Not

Skiing Skiing Skiing!

I'm a cat and even I know that.

Another catty remark, Duddits. Well, mea culpa. I've been wrong before.
I still didn't know that 'Cross Country" was a school subject. Back in the olden days - the days of yore - track wasn't considered a "subject". Yes, we did have track but not cross country or at least I don't recall that.
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post #10 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post

Oh, and just for the record, Easy classes:

AP English Lang/Comp.
AP European History (the only one that actually makes me try)
Italian 3 AND 4
AP Chemistry
AP Calculus BC
AMPS (Advanced Math Problem Solving)
Cross Country (not really mentally stimulating, but takes up a good 2-2.5 hours when I could be working on the above)

Comment about site moderation deleted - JL

Anyway, back OT:

iMacs iMacs everywhere,
the glossy surface makes me stare.

All those colors rich and true
despite those who claim it looks like poo.
post #11 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Another catty remark, Duddits.

Occupational hazard. Actually, species-related hazard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

I still didn't know that 'Cross Country" was a school subject.

I don't think he meant "subject" literally as much as he was simply supplying a list of frivolous school activites that keep him away from the far more serious task of gabbing about Apple in this forum.
post #12 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Another catty remark, Duddits. Well, mea culpa. I've been wrong before.
I still didn't know that 'Cross Country" was a school subject. Back in the olden days - the days of yore - track wasn't considered a "subject". Yes, we did have track but not cross country or at least I don't recall that.

Fine, it's not a subject, but it is part of my schedule, which was the general meaning of the list, if not explicitly defined. Being a professor, I would have assumed that you would be able to get away from the exact definitions/meaning of things and think.

Sorry, the above post wasn't there when I started to type this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duddits

I don't think he meant "subject" literally as much as he was simply supplying a list of frivolous school activites that keep him away from the far more serious task of gabbing about Apple in this forum.

Exactly.
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post #13 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duddits View Post

Anyway, back OT:

iMacs iMacs everywhere,
the glossy surface makes me stare.

All those colors rich and true
despite those who claim it looks like poo.

That's very funny. My daughter is also taking AP courses in HS.

It means Advanced Placement. These are supposed to be college level courses. The problem is that while many schools offer them, the quality of the courses varies. Some are very hard, and some are no more than regular course difficulty with the AP tacked on top. Universities know which schools offer the "real deal" and which don't.
post #14 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That's very funny. My daughter is also taking AP courses in HS.

It means Advanced Placement. These are supposed to be college level courses. The problem is that while many schools offer them, the quality of the courses varies. Some are very hard, and some are no more than regular course difficulty with the AP tacked on top. Universities know which schools offer the "real deal" and which don't.

The universities don't have to divine which school is providing a good course and which isn't. How they are separated is with the standardized, third party test put out by the AP organization, the College Board. Just taking the course doesn't mean anything for college credit, you have to take the test and pass with a certain score. I think the common minimum for being equivalent to a college course is a 3 out of 5, a higher score might be worth more credits or something. Policies can vary.
post #15 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

The universities don't have to divine which school is providing a good course and which isn't. How they are separated is with the standardized, third party test put out by the AP organization, the College Board. Just taking the course doesn't mean anything for college credit, you have to take the test and pass with a certain score. I think the common minimum for being equivalent to a college course is a 3 out of 5, a higher score might be worth more credits or something. Policies can vary.

It doesn't really work that way. In speaking to college reps who come to our HS, they tell me that each school is evaluated on its own.

The AP tests they take are only part of the story, just like the Regents is here in New York State.
post #16 of 70
Bob, you're right. I should have thought about what you meant. However, it's been a long time since I was in high school. I'm a retired US Treasury Special Agent (Criminal Investigator) working on Organized Crime cases.

Teaching is a second career for me. Unfortunately for me, I don't get students like you. I see students who don't want to be in school, don't try, expect the college to give them a grade and that's all they want. Sometimes, I get really depressed thinking the students I teach are the future of this country.
Knowing there are real students like you makes me feel that this country does have a future. Keep up the good work.
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post #17 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

My daughter is also taking AP courses in HS.

It means Advanced Placement. These are supposed to be college level courses. The problem is that while many schools offer them, the quality of the courses varies. Some are very hard, and some are no more than regular course difficulty with the AP tacked on top. Universities know which schools offer the "real deal" and which don't.

You didn't really think I thought AP stood for "Achieving Poorly??!!"

I figured since Bob's sig line was "Serving humanity one sarcastic comment at a time" it was high time I contributed to the effort.

Oh well.

I guess I should have used a winky emoticon but I can't quite figure out how to make emoticons appear in my text.

In any case, please accept my apologies anyone who didn't realize I was making a joke. Feel free to blame the misunderstanding on all those AP classes I took in highschool that irreparably impaired my sense of humor.
post #18 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duddits View Post

You didn't really think I thought AP stood for "Achieving Poorly??!!"

I figured since Bob's sig line was "Serving humanity one sarcastic comment at a time" it was high time I contributed to the effort.

Oh well.

I guess I should have used a winky emoticon but I can't quite figure out how to make emoticons appear in my text.

In any case, please accept my apologies anyone who didn't realize I was making a joke. Feel free to blame the misunderstanding on all those AP classes I took in highschool that irreparably impaired my sense of humor.

Melgross did say, "Very funny." I'm sure he knew you were 'twisting' the phrase; AP. I'm guessing that in spelling it out, he wanted to make sure the rest of us knew what it meant - especially since his daughter was taking AP classes. My daughters took similar classes, but I don't recall if they were called AP or not. That too was a long time ago. My daughters are in their early forties. One is a software engineer and the other is a paralegal. The AP courses give students a boost up.
Thank heavens for students like Bob and Melgross's daughter. This country needs them - badly.

As for sarcasm and bantering between intelligent people, I think it's a way to show 'affection' without being syrupy. That is, as long as it's kept light. There are times when AI members seem to want blood.
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post #19 of 70
Thread Starter 
Well, don't worry, my school has the best AP program in Iowa, has the most Merit-Scholar finalists, and the average AP score for most of the classes is above 4. (National average is around 3 or even less). Also, it is one of the top 100 schools in the nation. Now, you could probably figure this out on your own, but if your like me, you try to be as lazy as possible while still over-achieving (I know it sounds like an oxymoron, but it's not), so I will just tell you that it is Central Academy in Des Moines. Excellent program. Lots of very bright students. Lots of Asians.
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post #20 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It doesn't really work that way. In speaking to college reps who come to our HS, they tell me that each school is evaluated on its own.

The AP tests they take are only part of the story, just like the Regents is here in New York State.

That seems like unnecessary work to me when they have other pieces of information that's relatively independent.

But maybe how you describe it is done to evaluate for admissions, how I describe it is how the school determines what the school will let you opt out of.
post #21 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post

if your like me, you try to be as lazy as possible while still over-achieving (I know it sounds like an oxymoron, but it's not),

Well you know Einstein was sleeping around 10-12 hours a night when he put together the Theory of Special Relativity, arguably the most pivotal revelation in the history of your species if not mine (or at least in the top 3). Not to mention that he failed out of math class in high school and it wasn't even AP. The world is full of lazy over-achievers.
post #22 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur View Post

Melgross did say, "Very funny." I'm sure he knew you were 'twisting' the phrase; AP. I'm guessing that in spelling it out, he wanted to make sure the rest of us knew what it meant - especially since his daughter was taking AP classes. My daughters took similar classes, but I don't recall if they were called AP or not. That too was a long time ago. My daughters are in their early forties. One is a software engineer and the other is a paralegal. The AP courses give students a boost up.
Thank heavens for students like Bob and Melgross's daughter. This country needs them - badly.

As for sarcasm and bantering between intelligent people, I think it's a way to show 'affection' without being syrupy. That is, as long as it's kept light. There are times when AI members seem to want blood.

Correct. Many people have never heard of AP classes.
post #23 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

That seems like unnecessary work to me when they have other pieces of information that's relatively independent.

But maybe how you describe it is done to evaluate for admissions, how I describe it is how the school determines what the school will let you opt out of.

Of course, it's to evaluate admissions.

But, very few universities are now allowing "free" credits to those who sucessfully pass the AP tests. Those days are rapidly disappearing. The courses will have to be retaken.

When I graduated from Stuyvesant HS, back in 1967, we didn't have AP per se, but college level courses were offered. When I passed admissions tests for Zoology, chemistry, calculus, and physics, I was given credit for them. That's not likely to occur today.

In fact, it has been traditional to give an AP course grade a value of 110% vs the grade of an honors or standard course. That would raise the average of the student taking a number of those courses. But, the extra points are now regularly being stripped from the average by the admission offices.
post #24 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Of course, it's to evaluate admissions.

But, very few universities are now allowing "free" credits to those who sucessfully pass the AP tests. Those days are rapidly disappearing. The courses will have to be retaken.

When I graduated from Stuyvesant HS, back in 1967, we didn't have AP per se, but college level courses were offered. When I passed admissions tests for Zoology, chemistry, calculus, and physics, I was given credit for them. That's not likely to occur today.

In fact, it has been traditional to give an AP course grade a value of 110% vs the grade of an honors or standard course. That would raise the average of the student taking a number of those courses. But, the extra points are now regularly being stripped from the average by the admission offices.

What's the point again? Did you ever properly challenge these people on this? I would be insulted to take a class and then basically have to take the same material again. The test should be enough of an equalizer in my opinion.
post #25 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

What's the point again? Did you ever properly challenge these people on this? I would be insulted to take a class and then basically have to take the same material again. The test should be enough of an equalizer in my opinion.

What do you mean by challenge people? I received credit (40 years ago!), as I said. But, universities have the right to deny any "credits" given by another institution. That includes courses taken, and passed, in another accredited university. It most definitely includes "college level" courses taken in a HS.

There is no guarantee that an AP course will meet the standards of any given university, no matter what the score on the AP test. This is a fact. They also use their own experience with the students who have been admitted to them over the years. If students were given credit for an AP course, but then did poorly after that in the subject, and they come from a particular school where the students, on average, did poorly in that subject, then they may very well decide to refuse credit for that AP course from applicants from that school. That is precisely what happens. And it should happen.

But, in addition, what we're being told, is that it's becoming less likely that any of the better institutions will accept those AP courses in lieu of the course they themselves teach.

It's coming down to this: They will look at the course load, external commitments of the student, the SAT's, and their average. AP courses, if given in a HS which is known to have high standards, will be given extra weight, but they are less likely to accept them as a substitute for their own course.

That's real life

I think we can all agree that different colleges and universities have different standards. That's why there are ratings for them, and why students want to get into one, but not another.
post #26 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

What do you mean by challenge people? I received credit (40 years ago!), as I said. But, universities have the right to deny any "credits" given by another institution. That includes courses taken, and passed, in another accredited university. It most definitely includes "college level" courses taken in a HS.

I mean challenge them on why they are taking away the benefits they once had, the way I thought you said was explained to you.

Quote:
If students were given credit for an AP course, but then did poorly after that in the subject, and they come from a particular school where the students, on average, did poorly in that subject, then they may very well decide to refuse credit for that AP course from applicants from that school. That is precisely what happens. And it should happen.

I understand that, but the standardized AP test should weed out those variations. The college I went to didn't give me credit for having taken the courses (I took a few), they gave me credit based on my AP test score, or at least allowed me to skip the relevant class as qualifying toward the degree. I took a few AP classes but only bothered to take the standardized test in one class.
post #27 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

What's the point again? Did you ever properly challenge these people on this? I would be insulted to take a class and then basically have to take the same material again. The test should be enough of an equalizer in my opinion.

I know I may just be a cat, but I think your (or the general) view of standards is inaccurate.

There is no such thing as a college-level class.

Nor is there any such thing as a highschool-level class that substitutes for a college-level one.

There are only classes, good and bad.

It may be that a highschool class in a good highschool is superior to the same course in a bad college or a bad course in a good college.

After all, there are excellent AP highschool teachers far more experienced than the grad student who may be randomly assigned to teach freshman lit.

An AP class at a good (or bad) highschool may (or may not) substitute for an equivalent course at a college.

None of which matters.

If you're going to college, you want to take good classes and learn stuff. If there's a good class, it doesn't really matter if you're entitled to pass out of it or not. Every student should take classes that make sense for them, and since there is no standard for AP classes or standard for college classes, each student and class should be independently judged. Why miss the opportunity for a great college class because you happened to regurgitate an essay on Lady Macbeth senior year of highschool?

There was an interesting article in one of the papers this morning that made the point that many college teachers responsible for accrediting high school AP classes are the same ones responsible for teaching those introductory classes at college. These low level college teachers are in competition for their jobs against high school AP teachers whose students increasingly pass out of their classes. Therefore, these college teachers are giving the highschool AP teachers a hard time because they don't want to loose their jobs.

Another irony is that it's harder for students from top schools like Bob's and Mel's to get into top colleges since colleges have an interest in not admitting every student from a particular highschool who applies (even though they may all be competitive). Ironically, Bob, in an AP-rich school must do twice as well as a student from a school that does not offer AP classes to get into a top college. If a high school has 100 good applicants and 15 are accepted, it is harder to be among those 15 than the 1 accepted student from a school in which 1 student has applied and does not offer any AP classes.

Oh yeah.

iMacs are good.
post #28 of 70
[QUOTE=JeffDM;1135825]I mean challenge them on why they are taking away the benefits they once had, the way I thought you said was explained to you.{/quote]

I've explained why they are doing this now. Times are very different than when I went to school. Standards for college are much higher.

Quote:
I understand that, but the standardized AP test should weed out those variations. The college I went to didn't give me credit for having taken the courses (I took a few), they gave me credit based on my AP test score, or at least allowed me to skip the relevant class as qualifying toward the degree. I took a few AP classes but only bothered to take the standardized test in one class.

Well, these tests aren't the end all. Colleges are simply finding that these courses aren't quite as rigorous as was hoped. Perhaps the AP tests should be harder than they are to weed out more.

I've looked at some of the curriculum, and to be fair, from where I'm at, looking down, they look easy, but perhaps not from the other end, looking up.

But, it's the prerogative of the admittance office to decide what they will allow, based on the schools standards.

The one problem here is that as more schools offer AP courses, it becomes harder to find teachers who are qualified to teach them at the HS level. I don't know how the tests are devised, or how they decide to figure out the difficulty level.

It's something like the Regents here in NY State. Colleges here accept that as meaning something, but few outside of the state do.

Doing well on a regents exam does mean something, but exactly what? My daughter, as do most of her friends, finds them to be absurdly easy, but those in some other schools don't. Many schools outside of the bigger cities here in the state don't even give them. So, it's interesting to find that, a few years ago, as an experiment, a number of high average suburban schools agreed to participate in the program for one year, as a study, and their students did poorly.

These are complex subjects.

One problem is that as the population increases there is more competition for each available seat after the 12th grade. So, standards have been going up. Years ago, the AP's were designed to help differentiate between those at the higher end, but the feeling is now that they don't help as much as was once thought. Many schools seem to be adding the courses, which are not monitored for quality.

If, as some think, the tests themselves fall short, then something will have to change.

Until then, more of the better institutions are apt to not give credit for the course.
post #29 of 70
Thread Starter 
Public comment about site moderation deleted

What was the joke? I didn't get a chance to read it before it got deleted. Don't worry, I'm a good sport.
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post #30 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duddits View Post

I know I may just be a cat, but I think your (or the general) view of standards is inaccurate.

There is no such thing as a college-level class.

Nor is there any such thing as a highschool-level class that substitutes for a college-level one.

There are only classes, good and bad.

It may be that a highschool class in a good highschool is superior to the same course in a bad college or a bad course in a good college.

After all, there are excellent AP highschool teachers far more experienced than the grad student who may be randomly assigned to teach freshman lit.

An AP class at a good (or bad) highschool may (or may not) substitute for an equivalent course at a college.

None of which matters.

If you're going to college, you want to take good classes and learn stuff. If there's a good class, it doesn't really matter if you're entitled to pass out of it or not. Every student should take classes that make sense for them, and since there is no standard for AP classes or standard for college classes, each student and class should be independently judged. Why miss the opportunity for a great college class because you happened to regurgitate an essay on Lady Macbeth senior year of highschool?

There was an interesting article in one of the papers this morning that made the point that many college teachers responsible for accrediting high school AP classes are the same ones responsible for teaching those introductory classes at college. These low level college teachers are in competition for their jobs against high school AP teachers whose students increasingly pass out of their classes. Therefore, these college teachers are giving the highschool AP teachers a hard time because they don't want to loose their jobs.

Another irony is that it's harder for students from top schools like Bob's and Mel's to get into top colleges since colleges have an interest in not admitting every student from a particular highschool who applies (even though they may all be competitive). Ironically, Bob, in an AP-rich school must do twice as well as a student from a school that does not offer AP classes to get into a top college. If a high school has 100 good applicants and 15 are accepted, it is harder to be among those 15 than the 1 accepted student from a school in which 1 student has applied and does not offer any AP classes.

Luckily, since my school is a magnet school, which draws students from the surrounding areas to teach them at a higher level (just in case some of you don't know what I'm talking about, 'It follows'), I will actually graduate from my home school, which would probably fall under the category of a school from which there is only 1 applicant.

Also, Central Academy has an agreement with a local community college, DMACC, in which all the AP students will get credit for the class aside from the A.) High School credit and B.) the AP credit. The DMACC credit is transferable to all of the in-state (Iowa) schools and some out-of-state ones. The AP credit is useful, because as one accumulates them, awards are given for the # and average score on them. If all goes as expected, I should be a 'National AP Scholar' by the end of the year, and hopefully the 'AP State Scholar' when I graduate. I know someone who was a 2-year National AP Scholar (got it in 11th grade) who got a full ride scholarship to ISU without even applying.

Although many of you claim that the AP tests have been 'dumbed down' and standards are lower than when you were in school, I can assure you that they are not at all easy (except for calculus, but that may just because I'm a genius).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel

Well, these tests aren't the end all. Colleges are simply finding that these courses aren't quite as rigorous as was hoped. Perhaps the AP tests should be harder than they are to weed out more.

The quality of the courses that 'prepare' students for the tests should have nothing to do with colleges' decisions. It is reflected through the grade given on the test. Here are all the subjects, and you can click on one and then look at the grade distributions to see the general difficulty. The English Lang and Lit are probably the most difficult (as reflected by the # of 5's given). One should also note that as more and more people take these, the average grade will drop. Also, the higher the level of course (Calc BC, Compsci AB, Physics C, etc.) the average grade will rise, as only those who have done well previously will pass on to the next level, and are likely to succeed again.

IMO, colleges should accept the scores as credits, but be more stingy on it, so instead of giving credit for a 3,4 or 5, give only credit to a 4 or 5, or even just a 5 for the above specified courses. This would increase the standards without having to devise a new system that would eventually fail in the same way as this one is seeming to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duddits, the cat with opposable thumbs

Oh yeah.

iMacs are good.

Not 11 months wait good.

And as always, sorry for the long, disjointed post.
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post #31 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post


Also, Central Academy has an agreement with a local community college, DMACC, in which all the AP students will get credit for the class aside from the A.) High School credit and B.) the AP credit. The DMACC credit is transferable to all of the in-state (Iowa) schools and some out-of-state ones. The AP credit is useful, because as one accumulates them,

That's interesting, as a Community College is one that you go to because your grades aren't good enough to be accepted into a good 4 year school, or is for someone who intends to go into a career other than one which is academically rigorous.

Quote:
The quality of the courses that 'prepare' students for the tests should have nothing to do with colleges' decisions. It is reflected through the grade given on the test. Here are all the subjects, and you can click on one and then look at the grade distributions to see the general difficulty. The English Lang and Lit are probably the most difficult (as reflected by the # of 5's given). One should also note that as more and more people take these, the average grade will drop. Also, the higher the level of course (Calc BC, Compsci AB, Physics C, etc.) the average grade will rise, as only those who have done well previously will pass on to the next level, and are likely to succeed again.

"Should", and "do", are two different things. "Do" is becoming far more common that "should", I can assure you. I understand the scoring very well.

Quote:
IMO, colleges should accept the scores as credits, but be more stingy on it, so instead of giving credit for a 3,4 or 5, give only credit to a 4 or 5, or even just a 5 for the above specified courses. This would increase the standards without having to devise a new system that would eventually fail in the same way as this one is seeming to do.

I don't agree. Each college, or university, should use its own standards as to what they will allow. As you will find out, college is much different from HS, assuming you will go to a good one.
If you go to a mediocre one, and there are plenty of those around as well, then it likely won't matter if you took AP at all, as their standards are lower, and they don't expect many applicants at the highest levels.
post #32 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That's interesting, as a Community College is one that you go to because your grades aren't good enough to be accepted into a good 4 year school, or is for someone who intends to go into a career other than one which is academically rigorous.

A lot of people think that about community colleges, but they're so much more, and not the "lesser" education they get pigeon-holed into. Example: my niece just graduated from Dartmouth and is going to medical school (neuro-pediatrics), but is heading to Honduras first to do charity work. Before she goes south, she's going to pick up a particular chemistry course at Santa Monica College that is applicable to all of the med schools she's been accepted at. SMC is quite a fine college in all respects -- not just for the supposedly grade-challenged.
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post #33 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzaslove View Post

A lot of people think that about community colleges, but they're so much more, and not the "lesser" education they get pigeon-holed into. Example: my niece just graduated from Dartmouth and is going to medical school (neuro-pediatrics), but is heading to Honduras first to do charity work. Before she goes south, she's going to pick up a particular chemistry course at Santa Monica College that is applicable to all of the med schools she's been accepted at. SMC is quite a fine college in all respects -- not just for the supposedly grade-challenged.

I'm not saying that their courses are poor. If they are accredited, then they must meet standards.

But, community colleges were created for the purposes that I expressed above, and they serve those purposes admirably.
post #34 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post

What was the joke? I didn't get a chance to read it before it got deleted. Don't worry, I'm a good sport.

Never as funny on retrospect, so I'll just provide the outline and you can fill in the dots:

I pretended not to understand what AP meant.

I wondered if it meant "Achieving Poorly"

I suggested that since you found your "Achieving Poorly" classes too easy, perhaps you should take regular classes instead.

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post #35 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post

Also, Central Academy has an agreement with a local community college, DMACC, in which all the AP students will get credit for the class aside from the A.) High School credit and B.) the AP credit. The DMACC credit is transferable to all of the in-state (Iowa) schools and some out-of-state ones. The AP credit is useful, because as one accumulates them,

That's interesting, as a Community College is one that you go to because your grades aren't good enough to be accepted into a good 4 year school, or is for someone who intends to go into a career other than one which is academically rigorous.

That's not entirely true, but beyond that, I don't think Bob is saying that he plans to "cash in" his AP credits at a community college, only that a broad array of universities do in fact accept them as technically equivalent. Were it his goal, he could go to a state school, pay very little or nothing, and graduate in 3 or even 2 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But, community colleges were created for the purposes that I expressed above, and they serve those purposes admirably.

Community colleges were not created for - according to you - people with bad grades or non-academically rigorous career aspirations. Community colleges were created to broaden educational opportunities to people who might otherwise be excluded.
post #36 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duddits View Post

That's not entirely true, but beyond that, I don't think Bob is saying that he plans to "cash in" his AP credits at a community college, only that a broad array of universities do in fact accept them as technically equivalent. Were it his goal, he could go to a state school, pay very little or nothing, and graduate in 3 or even 2 years.

Maybe so, but even state schools are now charging fairly large amounts in many cases. As far as graduating in two or three years, well, ho ho. You're very flattering to him. As he's on this forum, I will treat him as an equal instead.

Quote:
Community colleges were not created for - according to you - people with bad grades or non-academically rigorous career aspirations. Community colleges were created to broaden educational opportunities to people who might otherwise be excluded.

Ah, as I said. those with poorer grades, and those who aren't interested in 4 year degrees, which are more complex, and challenging.
post #37 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Ah, as I said. those with poorer grades, and those who aren't interested in 4 year degrees, which are more complex, and challenging.

I disagree. They also allow lots of after-work educational opportunities, sometimes which are unavailable at the more complex schools. When I was first certified in Advanced First Aid and in Advanced Lifesaving many years ago, both of which are very good skills to have, the more complex and challenging schools nearby simply did not offer anything similar because the faculty at those schools did not deem those topics worthy of study (I later became friends with a prof at one of these schools). An odd twist of the story is that the life of a prof at one of those schools was saved by a student in my class who went on to volunteer on a rescue squad and who never received any thanks from the more complex and challenged prof; the praise went to the hospital doctors: those who had attended the more challenging school the prof taught at but who had not actually done anything to save his life as it had already been saved.

Oh, and to bring this back on topic: any idea when the first revision of the new iMacs will come? I can't decide when to buy in.

 

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post #38 of 70
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Maybe so, but even state schools are now charging fairly large amounts in many cases.

I don't see why it matters how much a state school costs if I get in for free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEL

As far as graduating in two or three years, well, ho ho. You're very flattering to him.

Not that hard to do. People have graduated from CC (that's central campus aka central academy) and gone into college as juniors before. And people who have started college as freshmen have been able to graduate in 3 or 3.5 years anyways.

Quote:
As he's on this forum, I will treat him as an equal instead.

Ahhh... that's sweet.

Quote:
Ah, as I said. those with poorer grades, and those who aren't interested in 4 year degrees, which are more complex, and challenging.

Yes, but only for some. Yes community colleges tailor well to people falling in the above categories, but they are so much more. For instance, say a person is going to college, they need to take some basic starter classes (Calculus, some general English, History, and Science classes). They know what state school they want to go to. They could take these classes at their school of choice for $X. They could go to a comm. college and take almost the exact same classes for the same amount of credit for $X/2.

Also, as a personal anecdote, my parents, neither of whom went to a university both recently needed to take classes to get certain certifications newly required for their jobs. Comm. college is PERFECT for this. They could take classes 2 or 3 nights a week, and be done in 4-6 weeks, and still work full time.

Third example: A person has no clue what they want to do in life. Instead of wasting their time and $$ at a state school, they can follow in the path of the person in the first example, work, and find some direction without all the pressure and expense of a state school.

I could give more, but you get the idea. (read about it here.)
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post #39 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

I disagree. They also allow lots of after-work educational opportunities, sometimes which are unavailable at the more complex schools. When I was first certified in Advanced First Aid and in Advanced Lifesaving many years ago, both of which are very good skills to have, the more complex and challenging schools nearby simply did not offer anything similar because the faculty at those schools did not deem those topics worthy of study (I later became friends with a prof at one of these schools). An odd twist of the story is that the life of a prof at one of those schools was saved by a student in my class who went on to volunteer on a rescue squad and who never received any thanks from the more complex and challenged prof; the praise went to the hospital doctors: those who had attended the more challenging school the prof taught at but who had not actually done anything to save his life as it had already been saved.

Oh, and to bring this back on topic: any idea when the first revision of the new iMacs will come? I can't decide when to buy in.

Not to be insulting, but that wasn't what I'm talking about.

That goes under the heading of simpler studies.

You get an Associates degree from a community college, unless there are now a few that offer 4 year degrees. You still must go to a 4 year institution to receive a Bachelors.

Advanced lifesaving, while certainly worthy, is not pre-med.

Maybe we will see something at Macworld.

Penyrn will be out in early November, so that should give Apple time to turn the entire Mac line around, except, possibly, the Mini.
post #40 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmarksdale View Post

I don't see why it matters how much a state school costs if I get in for free.



Not that hard to do. People have graduated from CC (that's central campus aka central academy) and gone into college as juniors before. And people who have started college as freshmen have been able to graduate in 3 or 3.5 years anyways.



Ahhh... that's sweet.



Yes, but only for some. Yes community colleges tailor well to people falling in the above categories, but they are so much more. For instance, say a person is going to college, they need to take some basic starter classes (Calculus, some general English, History, and Science classes). They know what state school they want to go to. They could take these classes at their school of choice for $X. They could go to a comm. college and take almost the exact same classes for the same amount of credit for $X/2.

Also, as a personal anecdote, my parents, neither of whom went to a university both recently needed to take classes to get certain certifications newly required for their jobs. Comm. college is PERFECT for this. They could take classes 2 or 3 nights a week, and be done in 4-6 weeks, and still work full time.

Third example: A person has no clue what they want to do in life. Instead of wasting their time and $$ at a state school, they can follow in the path of the person in the first example, work, and find some direction without all the pressure and expense of a state school.

I could give more, but you get the idea. (read about it here.)

I don't want you to think I'm disrespecting you (to use the vernacular). I'm not.

If your grades are good enough, you can get in for free. It would be the equivalent of a full scholarship at a private institution, and that's good. But, unless your state is very generous, unlike others, not everyone can get in for free. Most all are charging for credits these days. Budget crunches have has a poor effect on higher education.

You are validating my statements about the community college system, though you my not realize it.

As I stated in my above post, you won't get pre-med in these schools. It's more like pre-pre-med. They simply can't offer the course work, and labs a well equipped 4 year school can.

I'm not saying that they don't serve a good purpose. They do.
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