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Apple inks iPhone licensing deal covering 3G technologies - Page 2

post #41 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The new slots Apple uses in the MBP should, hopefully migrate down to the MB. That should be able to take these cards, should Apple, or third parties, decide to provide them.

It could be an internal slot too, for an optional card like how WiFi and Bluetooth used to be handled. It could offer a connection to better antenna than a side nub of a card too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Exactly. And that was the debate here, pretty much... 3G, how necessary? 3G when?

Camp A said it was pretty gosh-darn necessary, and needed to be on the iPhone soon, months not years. Camp B said it wasn't that necessary, and probably wouldn't be on the iPhone for two years at least.

Camp B ended up being wrong. End o' story.

Woah, when was 3G coming soon was absolutely confirmed? It all looks like rumor and speculation so far, but with more circumstantial evidence, that's all. Don't get me wrong, that would make me happy, but I don't want to be counting the chickens before they hatch, or so the expression goes.
post #42 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Woah, when was 3G coming soon was absolutely confirmed? It all looks like rumor and speculation so far, but with more circumstantial evidence, that's all. Don't get me wrong, that would make me happy, but I don't want to be counting the chickens before they hatch, or so the expression goes.


It'll be here for either the Euro iPhone launch or the Asian one.

Only real question is... which one?


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post #43 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I'm not sure how many 3G cards are available right now, though I know there are a few. It's the phone companies that limit this with the high monthly charges. Until they go down, the interest will be low for anyone except professionals, or business people, who really need it. Just "wanting it isn't often an excuse for paying for it.

Meh, it really depends on your carrier. Sprint, for instance, has some pretty reasonable data plans, as I'm sure you're aware.

Mobile broadband in the US is still an immature market, because good 3G coverage in the US is a relatively new development (only a year or two on the EVDO side, and we're still waiting on the HSDPA/UMTS side). But new markets are the ones that grow the fastest, and more and more ppl will be wanting mobile broadband on their laptops.

At some point Apple will include 3G card slots on their entire mobile lineup (nice for MBPs too, as the regular card slot doesn't get used up), and then prolly announce that they have some sort of special data deal with ATT to provide mobile broadband to Mac users for 'cheap'.

Of course, you'll be able to put any supported card in there and go with any 3G provider you want, but I'm sure Stevie will be pushing ATT, even though their 3G coverage is the worst of the 'Big Three' US carriers.

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post #44 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHagan4755 View Post

What are the chances that 3G will also be embedded technology in a future Apple notebook?

Imtel has been working to get HSPDA and WiMAX chipsets into notebooks (like the Centrino WiFi) for some time now. They seem to be behind schedule but who knows, maybe built HSPDA will be in theit next chipset release/

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Yep, Apple's moving quickly towards getting 3G into the iPhone, depsite what the "We don't really need 3G" crowd was originally saying. RDF, and all that.

That isn't true. The argument was that AT&T didn't have the infrasturcture to support wide-area 3G, the way the CMDA carriers do, so why bother adding a costly component that drains battery life, takes up space and benefits very few customers? AT&T seems to be adding 3G coverage at break-neck speeds... at least here in Florida.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Probably very little.

Refer to first post. Depends on how strong Intel's Kung Fu really is. You are the one who got me onto that. PS: I missed out this week on a huge profit from CLWR. The Apple keynote trend clearly seems to be if 'alien technology"y is not presented then the stock will plummet that day/week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Well, its all water under the bridge. Judging from the reviews and reaction, Apple did wake up to the fact 3G was a higher priority for potential iPhone customers than they thought. And they appear to be taking steps to deliver it sooner, rather than later. 'tis good.

Now, if they also eliminate most of the other weaknesses, such as no voice calling, no GPS, no Flash support, no MMS, etc., I think we have a home run here.

Flash looks like a no go. What is the point of running Flash-Lite so you can drain you battery faster. Adobe needs to get Flash 9 (or 10) and create a hardware accelerator chip if the really want to keep with this new trend created by iPhone/iPod Touch.

I really hope Apple doesn't give in to MMS, but I'm an Yank and don't have the same desire to send crappy low-res images to other phones like the right-pondians do. I'd much rather see more phones with REAL mail clients that will send snapshots with one click. After all, the EU does have the 3G bandwidth to support full size images being sent quickly.

Voice calling would be nice and Notes syncing too. I expect severe feature update when Leopard in release. Both being OS X.5 there are many frameworks that need to work in conjunction here.

I think Apple planned the 3G as a later development all along, after all, they were with AT&T's poor 3G coverage. Plus, this allows for even more people to buy new iPhones. Not a bad marketing plan. New features in October; 3G in November. But will the phone be heavier and thicker to account for the larger chips and much needed battery size improvement?

I rally hope the don't add traditional GPS services. If I need to know my exact location in the jungles of the Congo I'll be using a standalone GPS system and a sat phone, not my iPhone. I just want an iPhone that uses cell tower long/lat/degrees/minutes via Google Maps to direct me to where I need to be in a settled area. Again, there is affitional cost, size of chip, radio, and battery usage.

I do see Apple as having one huge failure--at least for Apple--when tey introduced the 4GB model. If they started with a 8.16GB mode perhaps things would have been different, but thr 4GB model was certainly a poor judgment on Apple's part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleshorts View Post

I am outraged. As if dropping the price of the iPhone were not enough, now they are adding features! What next? A new model? How can Apple treat us this way? We buy products and then they build better ones! Outrageous.

: If any other tech company ever dis this *cough*all of them*cough* I'd understand the outrage, but this is unprecedented (sarcasm)
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post #45 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That isn't true. The argument was that AT&T didn't have the infrasturcture to support wide-area 3G, the way the CMDA carriers do, so why bother adding a costly component that drains battery life, takes up space and benefits very few customers? AT&T seems to be adding 3G coverage at break-neck speeds... at least here in Florida.

Yeah, I know... in fact, I was making that particular argument before almost anybody here. The argument was to take EDGE over 3G because EDGE, while damn slow, was nearly everywhere. ATT's 3G coverage was poor. So let's benefit the majority.

However, shortly after making that argument, I realized that 3G and EDGE was not an 'either/or' situation. Phones like the Samsung Blackjack had chipsets in them that could support both HSDPA(3G) and EDGE. So, it was possible to benefit both the majority AND the minority.

And as you yourself note, ATT is building out its 3G network quite rapidly. It's still nowhere near EVDO's 3G coverage, but it's getting almost respectable now. So it's worth supporting.

Far as 'costly' goes, 3G radio chips aren't expensive, really. Even some entry-level cell phones have 'em now.


Quote:
Flash looks like a no go. What is the point of running Flash-Lite so you can drain you battery faster. Adobe needs to get Flash 9 (or 10) and create a hardware accelerator chip if the really want to keep with this new trend created by iPhone/iPod Touch.

I have a feeling we'll be seeing Flash support sooner rather than later. For good or ill, the user's web experience is just too dependent on Flash these days to ignore it.


Quote:
I think Apple planned the 3G as a later development all along, after all, they were with AT&T's poor 3G coverage.

Yes, and I was one of the ones who had to run around reminding all the ' who needs 3G' RDFers that Jobs had indeed promised 3G on the iPhone at some date. \

The problem was that while simultaneously promising 3G, Jobs also had to downplay 3G, since he could not offer it in iPhone 1.0. Many folks here swallowed the PR kool-aid a bit too hard and mistakenly thought that no 3G was no big deal, and that it could be back-burnered for a couple of years. Obviously, no way.

Quote:
Plus, this allows for even more people to buy new iPhones. Not a bad marketing plan. New features in October; 3G in November.

LOL. Given recent events (i.e. the Great iPhone Rebellion of '07), one has to question that, and wonder just how warmly an iPhone 2.0 showing up just 4-5 months after launch will be received by some.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see it, and I think Apple being aggressive here is necessary to ensure their success in what is likely going to be a tough market, most especially in Europe and Asia. But it'll be interesting to see how many people cry that their 2.5G iPhones are now 'bricks' just a few months after launch.


Quote:
But will the phone be heavier and thicker to account for the larger chips and much needed battery size improvement?

We'll see. Back then, Electric Monk had the 411 on some new chips that should minimize those problems.

Quote:
I rally hope the don't add traditional GPS services. If I need to know my exact location in the jungles of the Congo I'll be using a standalone GPS system and a sat phone, not my iPhone.

Many users don't agree with you on that. On high-end phones, they expect GPS, and real-time location-based services.


Quote:
I do see Apple as having one huge failure--at least for Apple--when tey introduced the 4GB model. If they started with a 8.16GB mode perhaps things would have been different, but thr 4GB model was certainly a poor judgment on Apple's part.

It doesn't seem to have been terribly damaging for them. In fact, it's kinda nice that you can pick one up for $299 now, since it's being EOL'd (assuming that you're ok with having an iPhone 1.0).

.
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post #46 of 99
So I don't understand how AT&T's system works. If you are in an area that does not have 3G what happens? Does the phone then "bump" down to 2.5 or 2G?

Honestly I could live with an iPhone that's twice as thick if that is what you need to have a battery that can handle 3G.
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post #47 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by razorpit View Post

So I don't understand how AT&T's system works. If you are in an area that does not have 3G what happens? Does the phone then "bump" down to 2.5 or 2G?

Honestly I could live with an iPhone that's twice as thick if that is what you need to have a battery that can handle 3G.

Don't know about AT&T but yes on UK networks if you are out of 3G coverage yes the same radio will use GPRS instead.
post #48 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I really hope Apple doesn't give in to MMS, but I'm an Yank and don't have the same desire to send crappy low-res images to other phones like the right-pondians do. I'd much rather see more phones with REAL mail clients that will send snapshots with one click. After all, the EU does have the 3G bandwidth to support full size images being sent quickly.

We have had this argument before and you just dont get the point!!

1 - There is no point emailing a full size photo to a phone, the small screen size makes it a waste of bandwidth, small res is perfect for a small screen display.

2 - Also the people you are sending photographs to are paying for each MB they have to download, if you keep sending them full size picture you will find they soon get pissed off with you.

3 - MMS is instant, push technology, you send a pic and it appears instantly on someone elses phone, email goes via 3rd party servers (gmail, yahoo etc..) not once but twice, emails can sometimes gets delayed and most people have to remember to check their email every 30 seconds all night in order to get pics within a reasonable time of being sent.

You are dismissing technology that was implemented precisely to overcome the limitations of email as a method of phone to phone photographs, a technology that is far more widely used on phones than email despite the fact that many many phones have supported "real email" for many years. Email and MMS have lived side by side on the same handsets for years and yet people have always used MMS to send photos and not email, does that not tell you something?
post #49 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Yep, Apple's moving quickly towards getting 3G into the iPhone, depsite what the "We don't really need 3G" crowd was originally saying. RDF, and all that.

I thought the first rule of RDF was to watch carefully what Jobs was saying they weren't going to do. Like completely dissing flash based music players, then releasing flash based players like the Shuffle, or computers behind an LCD panel and then doing the iMac G5.
post #50 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Embedded (as in included)? You're right, no.

But, wasn't it announced somewhere that Apple planned to incorporate slots for 3G cards into their entire notebook lineup at some point? Pretty sure I remember that.

.

Do we know if it's possible to connect an iPhone to a laptop?

Clearly if out of range of a WiFi area, it could be useful to connect to the internet and use a larger display with more functionality (e.g. Flash etc.)
post #51 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

As an owner of the iPhone I would say 3G isn't absolutely necessary for satisfactory use of the phone. But this isn't new information, Jobs said the iPhone would eventually get 3G from the beginning. 3G will be a nice addition once it does not make the phone larger or draw too much battery power.

This was misinformation from Apple and you believed it. The SE W880i proves otherwise. In fact most European and Asian 3G phones today prove it.
post #52 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunbow View Post

Do we know if it's possible to connect an iPhone to a laptop?

Clearly if out of range of a WiFi area, it could be useful to connect to the internet and use a larger display with more functionality (e.g. Flash etc.)

IIRC not via USB and there's no Bluetooth profile for using it as a modem.
post #53 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

LOL. Given recent events (i.e. the Great iPhone Rebellion of '07), one has to question that, and wonder just how warmly an iPhone 2.0 showing up just 4-5 months after launch will be received by some.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see it, and I think Apple being aggressive here is necessary to ensure their success in what is likely going to be a tough market, most especially in Europe and Asia. But it'll be interesting to see how many people cry that their 2.5G iPhones are now 'bricks' just a few months after launch.


They'll *have* to do that to keep up in Europe.

Sony Ericsson's P990i was released to the public last October. The P1i that replaces it is out now.

Nokia's N95 was released earlier this year and it's now being replaced by an upgraded 16GB model 6? months later.

You can bet the iPhone has stuck a fire under SE and Nokia's belly.
post #54 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

IIRC not via USB and there's no Bluetooth profile for using it as a modem.

Fixing this could be somewhat attractive then!
post #55 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

That is exactly how I too recall the general conversation. And I agree totally with TenoBell, the issue of 3G is one of functionality (+) traded off against size (-), battery usage (-), price (-), and in the US, availability of 3G outside of major metro areas (-).

All the negatives though are fairy tales.

Size - There are phones much smaller eg. SE W880i than the iPhone with 3G already. The very bad comparison used as a negative was the comparison between a Qualcomm chipset CDMA phone and the iPhone.

Battery - It's only a significant negative if the 3G aspect is being used. If it drops back the 2G then it powers down. If you've switched 3G off, as you can in many other phones, the battery lasts as long as 2G.

Price - the iPhone was already hugely expensive as it turned out.

Availability of 3G - temporary. It would be a negative that gets less and less over time to the point that not having 3G would become a bigger negative.
post #56 of 99
I think that for Apple's best long-term prospects announcing a 3G iPhone in October for a European (where Europe = France/Germany/UK) launch in October/November is the best move.

What they'd do is also talk about the other improved aspects (better camera, 16GB of storage I imagine) and then say oh and it's also coming to the States say December (with the different UMTS bands, of course). I don't know how long the FCC takes, though it's not 6 months, so I don't know when Apple has to submit it to the FCC to get it back for an early December launch.


Both are pretty viable alternatives. The main questions is whether the EDGE iPhone would piss off the Europeans enough to hurt future European iPhones.



[1] As I'm explained elsewhere a Japanese (or South Korean) iPhone would require a lot of extra software, plus at least an e-cash chip (Apple could include that as deadweight on the European iPhone, as it's small and cheap, so they could sell only two models: Europe/Japan/world, North America). As Japan uses the same UMTS band as Europe the main difference could be in the software.

Ideally a Japanese/SK iPhone would also include GPS, a really good camera, and digital TV. I don't see any of those until Revision C of the iPhone, though. The added benefit being that by Revision C of the iPhone the European digital TV market should be much better, and so those features would be used over there as well.[/QUOTE]


i agree with the above-- i think the whole reason for the price drop at this time was to prepare for the euopean rollout. europe i think will be presented with two models at different price points, edge AND 3 g that will keep the european makers off balance, since they didn't see the price cut coming. the handset makers were preparing their assult on the iphone primarily price/ 3g focus. no more especially if SJ sends them two phones, but this allows SJ to start earlier. the 3g model was always a given it was when. what's wrong with the US getting a 3g along side edge this christmas?? a new high end model, a lower price model, no need for a nanophone yet, this is all do-able from apple especially since this price cut gives new room for high end growth.... when SJ said he would be agressive it wasn't just price he was referring to IMO
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post #57 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric Monk View Post

[1] As I'm explained elsewhere a Japanese (or South Korean) iPhone would require a lot of extra software, plus at least an e-cash chip (

That's right about the E-cash chip and software. The Japanese use their phones to pay for almost everything, esp. those small items, from vending machines.
post #58 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Meh, it really depends on your carrier. Sprint, for instance, has some pretty reasonable data plans, as I'm sure you're aware.

Yes. If I had a laptop, Sprint would let me use my Treo 700p as a modem.

Quote:
Mobile broadband in the US is still an immature market, because good 3G coverage in the US is a relatively new development (only a year or two on the EVDO side, and we're still waiting on the HSDPA/UMTS side). But new markets are the ones that grow the fastest, and more and more ppl will be wanting mobile broadband on their laptops.

We don't have the highest speeds yet, that would be true, but, otherwise, it's not bad. I've never been out of Sprints 3G network, other than in some of the more obscure areas. The US is such a large country, with so many sparsely populated areas, that it's tough to supply even cell service, in some spots, unlike in heavily populated Europe, where there are very few areas like that.

Quote:
At some point Apple will include 3G card slots on their entire mobile lineup (nice for MBPs too, as the regular card slot doesn't get used up), and then prolly announce that they have some sort of special data deal with ATT to provide mobile broadband to Mac users for 'cheap'.

I never like to predict what Apple will do, though I will give my idea of what I think they will do. I agree that it would be a good idea to do what you say.

Quote:
Of course, you'll be able to put any supported card in there and go with any 3G provider you want, but I'm sure Stevie will be pushing ATT, even though their 3G coverage is the worst of the 'Big Three' US carriers.

.

Yeah, well, business is business. It will all get better with time.
post #59 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Imtel has been working to get HSPDA and WiMAX chipsets into notebooks (like the Centrino WiFi) for some time now. They seem to be behind schedule but who knows, maybe built HSPDA will be in theit next chipset release/

Intel's original attempts along this line, several years ago, with the original Centrino, was a flop, because the computer manufacturers around the world didn't want it. Therefore, Intel dropped it from the chipset, and we haven't seen another initiative from them until now.
post #60 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphyweb View Post

Don't know about AT&T but yes on UK networks if you are out of 3G coverage yes the same radio will use GPRS instead.

It works that way with Sprint as well.
post #61 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

I thought the first rule of RDF was to watch carefully what Jobs was saying they weren't going to do. Like completely dissing flash based music players, then releasing flash based players like the Shuffle, or computers behind an LCD panel and then doing the iMac G5.

I for one, would like to see Flash supported. As long as you have the option to turn it off as in our computers, it wouldn't hurt.

I'd rather have more options than fewer.

The cpu's will be gaining power as the iPhones are upgraded, over time, so Flash wouldn't always hog the device.
post #62 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

This was misinformation from Apple and you believed it. The SE W880i proves otherwise. In fact most European and Asian 3G phones today prove it.

I suppose it depends on one's standards. When I said that one of the major things holding back my purchase of the iPhone was the lack of 3G, I received quite a shellacking from those who thought that ATT's EDGE was just fine.

Unless it was simply BS from them, which I can't assume, some people don't find the speed to be too slow.

One friend who has the iPhone, and with whom I've made some download speed tests, thinks it's "ok". When we did the tests, and my Treo brought up the pages two to three times faster, he shrugged his shoulders, and said "whatever".
post #63 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Yeah, I know... in fact, I was making that particular argument before almost anybody here. The argument was to take EDGE over 3G because EDGE, while damn slow, was nearly everywhere. ATT's 3G coverage was poor. So let's benefit the majority.

I thought that something like all the top 20 markets had AT&T 3G. Doesn't this already qualify as a majority in terms of population served? Can't the system "fall back" to a slower mode? I don't know how far down the list of cities AT&T is in terms of 3G roll-out, but Sprint has high speed in a local #50 market. My house is outside that coverage, but if it's available, I'd sure like it to be supported.
post #64 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphyweb View Post

We have had this argument before and you just dont get the point!!

Okay, I see your point on data cost and diminutive size and resolution of the phone displays. May I suggest everyone in the EU buying an iPhone; it would surely help my stock. :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

You can bet the iPhone has stuck a fire under SE and Nokia's belly.

I'm glad to see other manufacturers and carriers seeing the iPhone as a threat now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

All the negatives though are fairy tales.

Size - There are phones much smaller eg. SE W880i than the iPhone with 3G already. The very bad comparison used as a negative was the comparison between a Qualcomm chipset CDMA phone and the iPhone.

Battery - It's only a significant negative if the 3G aspect is being used. If it drops back the 2G then it powers down. If you've switched 3G off, as you can in many other phones, the battery lasts as long as 2G.

Price - the iPhone was already hugely expensive as it turned out.

Availability of 3G - temporary. It would be a negative that gets less and less over time to the point that not having 3G would become a bigger negative.

Have younot checked out Ananadtech's brekdown of the difference in chip sies and power consumption issues associated with using 3G? It adds quite a lot of space. The WiFi was unbelievably small and used much less power than EDGE, just as a reference.

The argument that you can turn off 3G to save power is a poor argument. Why have the tech if you really can't use it do to power consumption. Hopefully these issues have alreasy been addressed of they come out with a sightly thicker phone and uses an international 3G chipset.

PS: .Mac and Gmail need to offer Push-IMAP which will greatly reduce power consumption, according to to AnandTech's report on the Blackberry's Push-IMAP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

I think that for Apple's best long-term prospects announcing a 3G iPhone in October for a European (where Europe = France/Germany/UK) launch in October/November is the best move.

What they'd do is also talk about the other improved aspects (better camera, 16GB of storage I imagine) and then say oh and it's also coming to the States say December (with the different UMTS bands, of course). I don't know how long the FCC takes, though it's not 6 months, so I don't know when Apple has to submit it to the FCC to get it back for an early December launch.

It's starting to appear to me that Job's plan is to keep releasing new phones to incrase the marketshare well beyond what was initially expected by cinsumers. How long did we wait for a "true" video IPod?

The more updates that are released in concession, even at cutting costs since the carrier dues make upa consider amount of Apple;s profit so the "hawrdware company" misnomer no longer applies with the iPhon, The more saturated the market will be and the more iPhone uses Apple will have the more chance for Apple to repeat its iPod monopoly.

How many more Mac will be sold due to satisfied iPhone owners? It seems likely that the iPhone will be the best selling high-end phone for many months to come.

Once the user-base is established Apple can implement it's own Xserve version of RIM's server based solution without the costly $100/per user licensing fee. What is stopping Apple from competing with RIM on this level? Now that iWork '08 has been released there seems to be nothing keeping Apple from syncing with Exchange while convincing it's new business partners that Xserve can do the same thing at a fraction of licensing and IT cost.

The "experts" said Apple can't possibly compete in the cell market. Job's seems to be very focused on proving them wrong.
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post #65 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


The argument that you can turn off 3G to save power is a poor argument. Why have the tech if you really can't use it do to power consumption.

It would be handy if the phone could drop back to 2G when just making a call! And thereby save power. ie. it would be good if the phone only went up to 3G when a 3G-based function was used.

I had a 3G phone in the UK before my current one and went back to 2G with my latest as the battery life was so much lower with 3G than 2G. To the point of being quite irritating, having to remember to charge it so frequently. I can see the heavy data usage of the iPhone though makes 3G highly desirable!
post #66 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunbow View Post

It would be handy if the phone could drop back to 2G when just making a call! And thereby save power. ie. it would be good if the phone only went up to 3G when a 3G-based function was used.

I had a 3G phone in the UK before my current one and went back to 2G with my latest as the battery life was so much lower with 3G than 2G. To the point of being quite irritating, having to remember to charge it so frequently. I can see the heavy data usage of the iPhone though makes 3G highly desirable!

I was under the impression that this happens automatically. When the iPhone is in range of an open WiFi network is auto-switches to the higher bandwidth option.
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post #67 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanmugam View Post

3G iPhone coming soon!, MSWF 2008?

It could happen.
The iPhone development seems to be happening very fast. The price reduction will probably clear all the current inventory by the end of the year. I would not be surprise to see a 3G version at MWSF and also a 16gig version as well.

Bring it on.
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post #68 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Have younot checked out Ananadtech's brekdown of the difference in chip sies and power consumption issues associated with using 3G? It adds quite a lot of space. The WiFi was unbelievably small and used much less power than EDGE, just as a reference.

I have. That's the example I'm talking about. It was a very bad example because they used the Qualcomm CDMA 3G chipset as a comparison. It's massive and power hungry and wouldn't ever be used in an iPhone. UMTS chips aren't as big and hungry and they're usually a combined 2G/3G chip. UMTS also doesn't require a huge aerial. Anandtech's whole premise in that article was just totally off base.

It was the equivalent of saying Smart Cars couldn't offer a diesel version in the US because a 3.5l Chevy block wouldn't fit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The argument that you can turn off 3G to save power is a poor argument. Why have the tech if you really can't use it do to power consumption. Hopefully these issues have alreasy been addressed of they come out with a sightly thicker phone and uses an international 3G chipset.

It's not. If 99% of the time you're only using voice and text, switching off 3G is useful. It's the same as switching off Wifi, bluetooth or infrared on a phone. If you're not using it, switch it off and you'll save power from functions you don't need.

Where I live there's pockets which are borderline 2G/3G and my phone constantly switches introducing latency. It's often faster switching 3G off entirely and only using the slower non-EDGE 2G signal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

PS: .Mac and Gmail need to offer Push-IMAP which will greatly reduce power consumption, according to to AnandTech's report on the Blackberry's Push-IMAP.

More importantly, Apple needs to open up it's iPhone mail client to use IMAP-IDLE for services other than Yahoo. My mail server does IMAP-IDLE as do most web hosting companies that use cPanel but that's academic because Apple's phone doesn't except to Yahoo.

All the Symbian 9.x phones btw do IMAP-IDLE.

Also, it's not important that you've 3G speeds for IMAP-IDLE since you're just getting very small data packets, it's irrelevant how fast they are, so again, using 2G when doing IMAP-IDLE nets you better battery life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Once the user-base is established Apple can implement it's own Xserve version of RIM's server based solution without the costly $100/per user licensing fee. What is stopping Apple from competing with RIM on this level?

They've already got IMAP-IDLE, CalDAV and Open Directory. There's a couple of other things like remote wiping of phones but that could actually be possible with something like remote desktop I reckon. I'd be surprised if the next version of Remote Desktop doesn't include iPhone management. Of course it needs to be packaged up for the Microsoft nerds so it bridges in with Exchange. I'd be surprised if Kerio doesn't have something out that does this at some point if Apple doesn't within a year.


Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I was under the impression that this happens automatically. When the iPhone is in range of an open WiFi network is auto-switches to the higher bandwidth option.

It does, for data but not voice.

Similarly, a 2G / 3G switch happens invisibly on a phone with both standards in them. If all you're doing is voice though there's little point in anything but 2G.

If you're one of the lucky ones with a provider that is ok with UMA, then there's also phones which will switch 2G/3G/Wifi depending on what is available too so that if you've got free Wifi, you get free voice.
post #69 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I thought that something like all the top 20 markets had AT&T 3G. Doesn't this already qualify as a majority in terms of population served? Can't the system "fall back" to a slower mode? I don't know how far down the list of cities AT&T is in terms of 3G roll-out, but Sprint has high speed in a local #50 market. My house is outside that coverage, but if it's available, I'd sure like it to be supported.

Well, first off, do understand that it was only my initial argument back then to support EDGE over 3G. Shortly thereafter I realized that it was NOT an 'either-or' thing (as the chipsets in question supported both 3G AND EDGE), and I immediately started arguing that the iPhone should, in fact, be 3G from the get-go. That's when I got jumped on by all the RDFers.

Far as where ATT's 3G coverage is at now, well being in the 'Top 20' markets doesn't mean much as an indicator. Because 1) you'd assume that they build there first anyway, and 2) it doesn't tell you how well they cover said Top 20 markets. There's plenty of large metropolitan markets ATT says it covers with 3G, but the coverage is often not complete... some parts of the city are covered, but not others, and/or the suburbs lack coverage. But as long as there's at least a few 3G towers in the city, ATT can claim to have it 'covered'. \

Far as how many people they cover nationally, its hard to get good figures, I guess because if ATT gets too specific, Sprint and Verizon will use said figures against them, as they are 12 to 18 months ahead of ATT in their own 3G(EVDO) roll-outs.

Best recent guesses I've heard put ATT at around 130 million people in their 3G coverage areas (don't know if that's now, or a 'goal' that they're trying to meet by end-of-year). Meanwhile, Sprint and Verizon both have around 210 million people in their 3G/EVDO coverage areas already, prolly around 230 million by year end.

Even that's not 'awesome' coverage, though... drive out of town and be anywhere but on a major interestate, and you likely won't have 3G, even on EVDO.

To answer another question of yours, yes, if a 3G signal is not present (or is so weak as to be unusable) the phone's chipset usually supports use of 2.5G signal to still do data, albeit much more slowly. It's not 'the system' doing it so much, it's the phone (at least that's my understanding), and it's good that it can, as 2.5G coverage is still quite a bit more pervasive than 3G.

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post #70 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by gugy View Post

It could happen.
The iPhone development seems to be happening very fast. The price reduction will probably clear all the current inventory by the end of the year. I would not be surprise to see a 3G version at MWSF and also a 16gig version as well.

Bring it on.


A 3G, 16 gig 'iPhone 2.0' will make a great many people, well... cream.

Forgive me, but there's just no other way to say it, really.

(This forum mentally scars me, at times.)

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post #71 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I suppose it depends on one's standards. When I said that one of the major things holding back my purchase of the iPhone was the lack of 3G, I received quite a shellacking from those who thought that ATT's EDGE was just fine.

Unless it was simply BS from them, which I can't assume, some people don't find the speed to be too slow.

One friend who has the iPhone, and with whom I've made some download speed tests, thinks it's "ok". When we did the tests, and my Treo brought up the pages two to three times faster, he shrugged his shoulders, and said "whatever".


Yes Mel, but you have to understand, even in the US, there are plenty of people who don't find EDGE adequate at all (remember David Pogue's 'slow and horrible' quip?), and that's even with our American 'lowered expectations' of 3G, since we've only had it for a very short time.

Now, go over to Europe. The pushback against having EDGE-only on the iPhone increases significantly, because they've had 3G for awhile, and are coming to expect it on their phones, particularly expensive, higher-end phones.

Now, go over to Asia, specifically, Japan and Korea. Try selling a 2.5G iPhone over there. You'll be laughed out of the country.

Trust me, the only real question concerning 3G on the iPhone is, will it happen in a couple of months (for the Euro launch), or in 8-10 months (Asian launch).

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post #72 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

One friend who has the iPhone, and with whom I've made some download speed tests, thinks it's "ok". When we did the tests, and my Treo brought up the pages two to three times faster, he shrugged his shoulders, and said "whatever".

Sigh. I think we've heard that one before. These single data-point observations mean little.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, after having used the iPhone in Boston, Paris, New Hampshire, Vermont, Manhattan, San Francisco, Detroit for over two months now: with 3 bars or more, EDGE/GPRS is absolutely fine for email, stocks, maps (slightly slower on satellite view), and weather. With 5 bars, it is absolutely fine for Youtube and Safari.

However, I have no idea how that would compare with 3G.
post #73 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

... with 3 bars or more, EDGE/GPRS is absolutely fine for email, stocks, maps (slightly slower on satellite view), and weather. With 5 bars, it is absolutely fine for Youtube and Safari...

I'll have to agree. Compared to my 1G method of driving home, turning on the computer and searching for a movie.

I suppose I could call Moviefone, but I think it'd take just as long. The iPhone proved to be a real time saver when the topic of going and seeing a movie came up during dinner last night. Fast enough for me and I think I'd rather see extended battery life than a fast-loading, ever important, Facebook page. 3G supposedly sucks down the battery more, correct?
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post #74 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Yes Mel, but you have to understand, even in the US, there are plenty of people who don't find EDGE adequate at all (remember David Pogue's 'slow and horrible' quip?), and that's even with our American 'lowered expectations' of 3G, since we've only had it for a very short time.

Now, go over to Europe. The pushback against having EDGE-only on the iPhone increases significantly, because they've had 3G for awhile, and are coming to expect it on their phones, particularly expensive, higher-end phones.

Now, go over to Asia, specifically, Japan and Korea. Try selling a 2.5G iPhone over there. You'll be laughed out of the country.

Trust me, the only real question concerning 3G on the iPhone is, will it happen in a couple of months (for the Euro launch), or in 8-10 months (Asian launch).

.

I didn't argue any of that. Remember that I'm one of those people you are talking about. I'm just saying that there are a lot of people HERE, who think that EDGE is, if not great, then "fine".As I said earlier, if that weren't true, a lot of people would be taking their phones back pretty quick. That isn't happening.

I'm also sure that not as many people are using the fastest services in Europe as some may think. just because the service is available, doesn't mean that everyone is crowding to get on it. In fact, I remember reading that there was a LOT of resistance to getting those services in Europe because of the expense.

While I'm pretty sure that some of that resistance is less today, there's still a pretty big market for non-3G phones. Look at what we're reading about Orange, for example, they're just now UPGRADING to EDGE! And while we may get someone saying that Orange is just terrible, it doesn't matter. They have lots of customers, as do the other non 3G networks.
post #75 of 99
I have a feeling that aegisdesign is gonna swoop in and lay the Euro 3G smackdown on ya, Mel.

Anyways, sure, I get what you're sayin'... SOME people are just 'fine' with EDGE. But by the same token, SOME people are not. Would not Apple prefer to sell to BOTH groups of people, rather than just one? A 3G product does that. A 2.5G product does not. Hence, the 3G product is inevitable, and likely sooner rather than later.

Hopefully I'm not preaching to the converted here.


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post #76 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Sigh. I think we've heard that one before. These single data-point observations mean little.

Wrong! They mean a lot. Why? Because as I've said several times before, Apple has now sold close to 1 million iPhones. Not one of them has 3G. How many have come howling back to the stores about how slow the phones are, and they want their money back?

Very few, or we would have heard about a problem there. We haven't.

It's safe to assume, therefore, that the vast majority are at least satisfied enough to live with it, or, like my friend, to not care much about the speed, at least for now.

Every review has said that the weakest part of the phone is EDGE. But, most have also said that is seems to get the job done. That's faint praise, but it's not damnation either.

Quote:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, after having used the iPhone in Boston, Paris, New Hampshire, Vermont, Manhattan, San Francisco, Detroit for over two months now: with 3 bars or more, EDGE/GPRS is absolutely fine for email, stocks, maps (slightly slower on satellite view), and weather. With 5 bars, it is absolutely fine for Youtube and Safari.

However, I have no idea how that would compare with 3G.

I really don't understand why you would disagree with what I've said, because it does agree with you. People don't have to be enthusiastic about the performance, just satisfied, which is what my friend is, and how you seem to be as well.

What is your problem with that?
post #77 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

I have a feeling that aegisdesign is gonna swoop in and lay the Euro 3G smackdown on ya, Mel.

Anyways, sure, I get what you're sayin'... SOME people are just 'fine' with EDGE. But by the same token, SOME people are not. Would not Apple prefer to sell to BOTH groups of people, rather than just one? A 3G product does that. A 2.5G product does not.

Hopefully I'm not preaching to the converted here.


.

I didn't want to point him out, but yes, its likely he will find some numbers somewhere that will seem to show something or other, but not be definitive.

The point I'm making is pretty simple. If 50% are on 3G, that leaves 50% for Apple to prune. Since Apple only expects 1% or so, that gives them plenty of room.

And if people are pretty much the same all over, even some people on 3G will get the phone, switch, and put up with the slower speed, but then will get the faster model when it comes out.

That's all much more likely now that the phone is so much cheaper, even if the 3G model goes up in cost somewhat.

Well, I'm waiting for 3G.
post #78 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

A 3G, 16 gig 'iPhone 2.0' will make a great many people, well... cream.
.

I am ready to cream. Help me Apple!
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post #79 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Wrong! They mean a lot. Why? Because as I've said several times before, Apple has now sold close to 1 million iPhones. Not one of them has 3G. How many have come howling back to the stores about how slow the phones are, and they want their money back?

Very few, or we would have heard about a problem there. We haven't.

It's safe to assume, therefore, that the vast majority are at least satisfied enough to live with it, or, like my friend, to not care much about the speed, at least for now.

Every review has said that the weakest part of the phone is EDGE. But, most have also said that is seems to get the job done. That's faint praise, but it's not damnation either.

The problem with any "they're doing well, so everything must be peachy" statement is that it never takes into account that the party in question could be doing EVEN BETTER.

So Apple has sold nearly 1 million iPhones. That's great. But how many would they have sold had they been 3G? 1.2 million? 1.5? It's hard to gauge, but it's not a stretch to say that a significant number of people took a pass on 'iPhone 1.0', largely due to the lack of 3G. \

You yourself are such a person, as you've admitted. So am I (though for me it's also the 'ATT-exclusive' thing).

And there's going to be significantly more such people once the iPhone launches in Europe. Asia? Suicide without 3G, plain and simple.

And Apple obviously cares about things like doing 'even better' with iPhone sales, as the big price cut shows. As Steve himself said, "We really wanted to 'go for it' for the holiday season."

3G, sooner rather than later, would be another way to 'go for it', as well.

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post #80 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

The problem with any "they're doing well, so everything must be peachy" statement is that it never takes into account that the party in question could be doing EVEN BETTER.

So Apple has sold nearly 1 million iPhones. That's great. But how many would they have sold had they been 3G? 1.2 million? 1.5? It's hard to gauge, but it's not a stretch to say that a significant number of people took a pass on 'iPhone 1.0', largely due to the lack of 3G. \

You yourself are such a person, as you've admitted. So am I (though for me it's also the 'ATT-exclusive' thing).

And there's going to be significantly more such people once the iPhone launches in Europe. Asia? Suicide without 3G, plain and simple.

And Apple obviously cares about things like doing 'even better' with iPhone sales, as the big price cut shows. As Steve himself said, "We really wanted to 'go for it' for the holiday season."

3G, sooner rather than later, would be another way to 'go for it', as well.

.

My point isn't that they wouldn't be doing better, as long as the price was the same, of course, I assume that they would be doing better.

The discussion we've been having, or at least I thought it was, was that there are people perfectly happy with the slower service, not that there aren't others, such as myself, who wouldn't be.

I've said, in every discussion we've had about the iPhone that I and OTHERS, are waiting for a 3G version.

And substantive, and hopefully official, support for third party apps.
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