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Purported T-Mobile ad claims 3G iPhone for Germany in November - Page 3

post #81 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


In most of Europe with most landline carriers you also have to remember that there are no free local calls either. The caller always pays the cost of the call.

That coud be expensive, and would help explain the popularity of cell over there.

I pay a fixed rate per month (I forget what it is exactly, but somewhat under $30), and I get unlimited calls, for an unlimited amount of time.

Of course, that's for local calls, though local here can mean quite a swath of area, covering 20 or 30 million people.
post #82 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That wasn't a cell phone, as you noticed. We had mobile radio that far back. Cell came later.

In Japan, the first commercial cell service began in 1979, I think. It was very limited, and horribly expensive, and unreliable.

In 1983, the first cell phone service started here. I remember that well, because I was able to play with one for a while when I was in Chicago for a business meeting.

I had successive cell phone or mobile radio phones after that through today - all have had 503 area codes or 415 areas codes - my point was 917 was not a number for all of the U.S. (at least not Oregon and California).. here's from wikpedia -" For example, in Manhattan, New York, subscribers' numbers had the NPA code 212, but two additional codesfirst 917 (which initially was exclusively for cell phones and faxes until struck down in a federal court), then 646were also introduced."
post #83 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Because of the switching systems. It is set up for the system now in use. Upgrading that, by adding numbers, as well as the problem of possibly forcing many phone users, and esp. those in business to go to new systems. Web sites would all have to be upgraded. Even paper work with spaces for phone numbers would have to be re-designed and re-printed.

That would cost a huge amount of money across the entire world.

I'm sure it could be done, but those costs would make everyone rather not want to do it.

Note that I am not saying it should be done, but it was in the nature of explaining why the caller + receiver payer system is unique to the US (at least, among the countries that I've visited).

Numerous countries have done the switch, and on a scale that would be similar to that of the task in the US (most recently, China comes to mind; India has gone through at least two major sets of number changes, but the scale is much smaller than in the US).

The arguments you raise are similar to those one hears for why the US won't go metric, for instance, when the rest of the world has moved on.

Yes, switching standards, or imposing new methods to do old things will require resources, time, and effort. The US itself does it all the time: e.g., new labeling standards on packaging resulting from FDA rules that change all the time, new reporting standards for companies, new cards and letterheads that needed to be printed when the web and email came along, new area codes that came along in every heavily populated city or state, and "zip code + 4" come to mind right away. I am sure there are many more (and better) examples. People just adjusted, since these changes were forward-looking.

In the US, the current system of three-digit area codes plus a seven-digit number has stayed the same since perhaps the mid-60s (I am going by my wife's comment on this; I myself have been in this country only since 1982). During these four decades, just about everyone everywhere has undergone major changes in telephone numbering systems (Canada maybe an exception, I am not sure). With all of its tech prowess, I am not sure why the US can't do it.
post #84 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeonit View Post

and in germany for example there not just one area code for cell phones!

right now there's:

0160 t-mobile
0162 vodafone
0163 e+
0170 t-mobile
0171 t-mobile
0172 vodafone
0173 vodafone
0174 vodafone
0175 t-mobile
0176 o2
0177 e+
0178 e+
0179 o2

in use

Makes perfect sense: Area codes are specific to cell phones + provider. I was saying that is, indeed, the system in most of the world. More generally, the point is that in Germany, 0174 would not be used as the area code for a landline -- please correct me if I am wrong.
post #85 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Makes perfect sense: Area codes are specific to cell phones + provider. I was saying that is, indeed, the system in most of the world. More generally, the point is that in Germany, 0174 would not be used as the area code for a landline -- please correct me if I am wrong.

I will not correct you - in addition to being able to tell what provider somebody uses, you can also deduct from the "Vorwahl" (the area code) in what area somebody lives... WOW. Well, I mean you know the area code "407" or "704" in the US to be Orlando, FL or Charlotte, NC respectively. Nevertheless, the next area code may be completely different. In Germany, the area code "069" stands for Frankfurt/Main, "089" stands for Munich, and "030" stands for Berlin... when you now get a telephone number starting with "06" you can deduct from that that the respective person lives somewhere around Frankfurt/Main (well, they can live pretty far away from Frankfurt, but in no way anywhere close to Munich, or Berlin -> but somewhere more or less close to Frankfurt). And, we will not run out of telephone numbers too soon. New York City had to subdivide their numbers to another area code, because they ran out of numbers. Too bad that the US telephone numbers are all seven digits long. Not so in Germany: you can find people with telephone numbers as short as three digits and somewhere else they have eight digits (in Munich, e.g.).

To come back to the area code of the mobile telephone services. While you will be able to tell which carrier somebody uses by looking at their area code, that is not entirely true anymore: recently, Germany had the mobile phone services company to allow complete number transfers. This means when you had service with Vodafone before and change to T-Mobile now, you can take your complete telephone number (including the area code) with you... nice

Cheers.
post #86 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Makes perfect sense: Area codes are specific to cell phones + provider. I was saying that is, indeed, the system in most of the world. More generally, the point is that in Germany, 0174 would not be used as the area code for a landline -- please correct me if I am wrong.

Further to that... iirc, any number starting with "01" in Germany will be a cell phone.

In Australia, "0411" was described as the first area code for GSM phones (this despite the fact that NSW is 02, Vic is 03, Qld is 07, etc). Now any number starting with an "04" will be a mobile phone, but people still advertise their mobile number with the first 4 digits separated as the area code. eg "(0403) 123456" "(0425) 222333". So while someone could say "look at all the mobile phones with different area codes in Australia, really it's all "04".
post #87 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

Apple could quiet easily be open about the new iPhone with t-mobile, where they hadn't discussed the iTunes wifi store options.

Not that that makes it real... I just don't think it's evidence against.

Or perhaps it's just that the WiFi iTunes store isn't available in Europe.
post #88 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by onceuponamac View Post

I had successive cell phone or mobile radio phones after that through today - all have had 503 area codes or 415 areas codes - my point was 917 was not a number for all of the U.S. (at least not Oregon and California).. here's from wikpedia -" For example, in Manhattan, New York, subscribers' numbers had the NPA code 212, but two additional codesfirst 917 (which initially was exclusively for cell phones and faxes until struck down in a federal court), then 646were also introduced."

We never had 212 as a cell area code here. I'm not sure where they got that info from, but it's wrong. The only thing possible is that after the opening up of the area codes, someone switching from a 212 land line would be allowed to keep their number, including the area code. As said, 646 came later.

It's always possible that they allowed the older radiophones to continue with the same area codes once cell took over, but that would be a specialized situation at best, and wasn't representative at all.
post #89 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Note that I am not saying it should be done, but it was in the nature of explaining why the caller + receiver payer system is unique to the US (at least, among the countries that I've visited).

Numerous countries have done the switch, and on a scale that would be similar to that of the task in the US (most recently, China comes to mind; India has gone through at least two major sets of number changes, but the scale is much smaller than in the US).

The arguments you raise are similar to those one hears for why the US won't go metric, for instance, when the rest of the world has moved on.

Yes, switching standards, or imposing new methods to do old things will require resources, time, and effort. The US itself does it all the time: e.g., new labeling standards on packaging resulting from FDA rules that change all the time, new reporting standards for companies, new cards and letterheads that needed to be printed when the web and email came along, new area codes that came along in every heavily populated city or state, and "zip code + 4" come to mind right away. I am sure there are many more (and better) examples. People just adjusted, since these changes were forward-looking.

In the US, the current system of three-digit area codes plus a seven-digit number has stayed the same since perhaps the mid-60s (I am going by my wife's comment on this; I myself have been in this country only since 1982). During these four decades, just about everyone everywhere has undergone major changes in telephone numbering systems (Canada maybe an exception, I am not sure). With all of its tech prowess, I am not sure why the US can't do it.

I did say it could be done. It's just that it's very expensive, and the government over here doesn't have tha power from the yop down it does over there. In order to do this there would be agees of hearings, with the interested parties clamoring for a word. After a decision was made parties would take it to court for more years of procrastination, etc.

By the way, in an act of Congress in 1866, the Metric System was made legal, and the office of Weights and Measures (as it was called back then,) was ordered "with all due speed" to attempt to make it the standard of the land. But, because of resistance, it wasn't made the official system.
post #90 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by heffeque View Post

Yeah... I never understood the purpose of making the receiver pay for incoming calls.

Do the tele-marketers ever call you on your cell phone in Europe? They don't here in the US probably because they know how much trouble that will cause if we have to pay for them to spam us.

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post #91 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That coud be expensive, and would help explain the popularity of cell over there.

Exactly. It's cheaper for some people to not have a landline at all and to use a mobile phone instead as they come with more free minutes and other perks.

It's also why the internet was held back here for quite some time before broadband as we almost all paid by the minute to access the net on dialup even via a local call.

When HSUPA comes in it potentially could be faster to use a mobile phone for net access than a landline since British Telecom have been incredibly slow to roll out ADSL2 and faster copper/fibre so we're stuck at 8Mb or on ADSLMax around 7.1Mb but more like 4Mb or 2Mb at peak times depending on the exchange. Upload speeds are about 1Mbit typically.

HSUPA is 5.76Mb up and 3.6/7.2/14.4Mb down potentially although I expect those might not appear in a handset for a while. Possibly only in cards and routers first.

There's lots of reasons why we favor mobile phones over landlines which makes us more attached to all their features than most Americans.
post #92 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Exactly. It's cheaper for some people to not have a landline at all and to use a mobile phone instead as they come with more free minutes and other perks.

It's also why the internet was held back here for quite some time before broadband as we almost all paid by the minute to access the net on dialup even via a local call.

When HSUPA comes in it potentially could be faster to use a mobile phone for net access than a landline since British Telecom have been incredibly slow to roll out ADSL2 and faster copper/fibre so we're stuck at 8Mb or on ADSLMax around 7.1Mb but more like 4Mb or 2Mb at peak times depending on the exchange. Upload speeds are about 1Mbit typically.

HSUPA is 5.76Mb up and 3.6/7.2/14.4Mb down potentially although I expect those might not appear in a handset for a while. Possibly only in cards and routers first.

There's lots of reasons why we favor mobile phones over landlines which makes us more attached to all their features than most Americans.

And that's important to understand. The public here isn't pushing for these changes, except for a small minority. Without the demand, there is little competitive advantage to being the first out of the box.

While the US got cell pretty fast, both the early expense, and the fact that landlines here have been very good, and reliable, held everything else back. The FCC wasn't that eager either, but that was also because the public wasn't pushing them.

The dame thing is true for DSL and other services. They came, early, but weren't expanded much because the public wasn't terribly interested for a long time. It's very expensive to roll these things out here, because of the size of the country.
post #93 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Do the tele-marketers ever call you on your cell phone in Europe?



I think tele-marketing is a fairly uniquely US invention, concept, and experience.

But it is starting to make some inroads abroad, esp. in the form of text messages sent via mobile phones.
post #94 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Exactly. It's cheaper for some people to not have a landline at all and to use a mobile phone instead as they come with more free minutes and other perks.

It's also why the internet was held back here for quite some time before broadband as we almost all paid by the minute to access the net on dialup even via a local call.

When HSUPA comes in it potentially could be faster to use a mobile phone for net access than a landline since British Telecom have been incredibly slow to roll out ADSL2 and faster copper/fibre so we're stuck at 8Mb or on ADSLMax around 7.1Mb but more like 4Mb or 2Mb at peak times depending on the exchange. Upload speeds are about 1Mbit typically.

HSUPA is 5.76Mb up and 3.6/7.2/14.4Mb down potentially although I expect those might not appear in a handset for a while. Possibly only in cards and routers first.

There's lots of reasons why we favor mobile phones over landlines which makes us more attached to all their features than most Americans.

Some great points there.
post #95 of 109
In Australia it works a little differently. Someone mentioned how you get freebies -- freebies are in abundance.

For instance, if you bundle all your services with one company, as my family have (with Optus), you get hundreds of free local calls and free calls to other Optus users, and cheaper broadband for home ADSL.

Telstra has the option of choosing your top 5 friends for free calls to them anytime, or prepaid. Optus has after hours free mobile calls. And both Voda and 3 give you free minutes to other people on their network.

With my mobile plan, i pay $69 for $550 worth of calls, texts, mms, emails and 120 of it is for international calls. Plus 300 free minutes to other '3' mobiles. I can choose my data plan, which is $5 for 10Mb, or $29 for 1Gig of downloads per month (at the moment they charge 50cents per MB if you go over your allocated usage). You can use your mobile as a portable modem for your laptop, or buy a data card, or buy a usb modem. They all use HSDPA (unless you have an older phone which is just slow 3g at 386kbs).

Rates go:
35c per 30 secs + 25c flagfall
25c per SMS sent
35c per International SMS sent
25c per MMS sent to other 3 users
50c per Video MMS sent to other 3 users
75c per MMS sent to any other networks (pic or vid)
It's free to have and collect voice mail and 15c per 30 secs, no flagfall to retrieve

On the $69 cap i never go over (unless it's summer, then i go to the bigger one), most people are on the $49 dollar cap which gets you $400 worth of calls and the rest.
post #96 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeonit View Post

and in germany for example there not just one area code for cell phones!

right now there's:

0160 t-mobile
0162 vodafone
0163 e+
0170 t-mobile
0171 t-mobile
0172 vodafone
0173 vodafone
0174 vodafone
0175 t-mobile
0176 o2
0177 e+
0178 e+
0179 o2

in use

Please tell me that if you switch carriers, you can keep your number...
post #97 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

Please tell me that if you switch carriers, you can keep your number...

Yes, you can. But only, if the 24-month contract is over.

And the old provider takes a fee of 25 for your number.

Sometimes you have to pay a extra fee at the new provider, but they usually pass on this fee, because they want you as a customer.


However, there are a lot of people who are afraid of taking their number with them because...

1. The provider make a great fuss about it. You're in danger, that nobody can reach you for days or even weeks!

2. When you take your number with you it means, you can for example take a 0178 (e+) to t-mobile. That means every friend who calls you thinks, that you have e+.
So your friends who have e+ call you, think it's not expensive and are charged a lot more.

The german mobile carrier system is very complcated an it's very expensive to phone to other providers, so the people usually stick to the numbers which indicate clearly their carrier. Just to save their friends from hided costs.
post #98 of 109
Im doubting the legitimacy of that ad. Im sure something like that is easy to photoshop. Also it says ipod instead of iphone? Wierd.

As for pricing though in the UK we have great rates. £30 can get up to 600mins talk time + 400 txt. You can also get unlimited data for around £5-10 on various carriers which is great for IM.

There has always been speculation that the EU iphone would have 3G and im sure it will. Jobs would be silly to market the iphone for its hefty price when it isnt even 3G. As for the 16GB well id still buy it if it was 8gb but i guess that will be a bonus.
post #99 of 109
[edit: someone else said it better.]
post #100 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeonit View Post

i like the US system better...

on top the US numbering plan... i hate the EU system where you never know howl on a number is. in the US it's clear and in pairs of 3's and one pair of 4 numbers... easy to remember...

the worst is france where the love to split up the super long number into pairs of 2's, like 12 34 45 67 89 01, ridiculous... the german system @ least has a clear area code marked with (), like (0123) xxxxxxx, italy and spain have that system too...

In the UK, numbers are all eleven digits (including area code). However, the proportion of that which is code vs number is different depending on the area. Coventry has a code of 024, so the numbers are eight digits long. New Mills has a code of 01663, so the numbers are six digits. It depends how big a population an area has, I believe: if one area code needs more phone numbers, the area code gets shorter.

All cellphone numbers are 07xxxxxxxxx. (For comparison, landline numbers start 01 or 02, premium rate numbers start 09, and there's also 08 which gets other kinds of special numbers.) People tend to chunk them differently, since there's no real distinction between code and number -- you can never dial a mobile number without using the whole eleven digits. I group 07xxx xxx xxx, because I'm used to the New Mills area code.

In theory you can work out the network someone's on from the number, but the algorithm is complex, and also people can port their number between networks. I'm on Three, but used to be on Orange, so every so often I get telemarketers targetting Orange customers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Do the tele-marketers ever call you on your cell phone in Europe? They don't here in the US probably because they know how much trouble that will cause if we have to pay for them to spam us.

Sometimes. I get one call per month on average. They're almost always from another mobile network trying to get you to switch.

The fact that all mobiles have caller ID, and few landlines do, means it's easier for people to ignore such calls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mylene View Post

1. The provider make a great fuss about it. You're in danger, that nobody can reach you for days or even weeks!

That's odd. When I've ported my number, I get given a new SIM card. The new card has a temporary number for a few days, and in that time my old one still works. Then, through some clever communication between the two companies, the old card gets deactivated just as the new one gains the number you're porting. It all happens in about five minutes.

Once I had a screw up where the new one got the number before the old one was deactivated, and ringing it made both phones ring. That was interesting. It went away in half an hour though.
post #101 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mylene View Post

Yes, you can. But only, if the 24-month contract is over.

And the old provider takes a fee of 25 for your number.

Sometimes you have to pay a extra fee at the new provider, but they usually pass on this fee, because they want you as a customer.


However, there are a lot of people who are afraid of taking their number with them because...

1. The provider make a great fuss about it. You're in danger, that nobody can reach you for days or even weeks!

2. When you take your number with you it means, you can for example take a 0178 (e+) to t-mobile. That means every friend who calls you thinks, that you have e+.
So your friends who have e+ call you, think it's not expensive and are charged a lot more.

The german mobile carrier system is very complcated an it's very expensive to phone to other providers, so the people usually stick to the numbers which indicate clearly their carrier. Just to save their friends from hided costs.

That's worse than here.
post #102 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q-chan View Post

Regarding "free" incoming calls in Germany... In contrast to the US, mobile phone numbers have a country-wide unique area code, assigned to the mobile carrier. Therefore calls to mobile phone are distinguishable as such for the caller, and the caller knows he/she has to pay a (sometimes substantial) higher price for the call. So the cost is just distributed differently.

I think the ad is real as other German 'colleagues" already said, the language is correct and "genuine T-Mobile style". The lack of the iTunes icon is (IMHO) because the ad was produced before the service was ready for release.

The phase-out of the 4G US model, the price drop of the current 8G US model, the presentation of the 16G iPod touch and the "16G iPod" in the ad indicate one thing:

The German iPhone is iPhone V2, with 16G and UMTS, aka 3G


This Ad must be a fake. Because it uses the wrong colors for T-Mobile. T-Mobile uses black font on magenta background. Magenta Font on Black background is solely left to the fixed lind and braodband business T-Home.
post #103 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That's worse than here.

It's worse than the UK too. Germany seems pretty terrible. I've never had phone downtime when moving providers. Sometimes they ask you to switch the phone off for 30 minutes but I never do, just off and back on again after an over the air SIM update.
post #104 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by yvo84 View Post

You guys in the US have to pay when people call YOU?
That's bizarre.

In Australia, Telstra is already rolling out their nationwide network now running at 14.4Mbs.....

The handsets aren't keeping up though.

telstra are also requiring you to sacrifice a daughter, and a kidney, per month to download anything over say.. 50mb. ridiculous rates. absolutely absurd.


ps: world : telstra are the most smug, ridiculous corporation ever.
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post #105 of 109
since the US numbering plan has been working great fro so a high number of clients i wish the EU would adopt it too...

+2 for the EU then xxx for the area and xxx-xxxx for the number in that area code.

we're a little over 300 million right now in the EU, US is around 280 million. there should be no problem to re-organize the EU system...

that way it would become easier to remember numbers, easier to call in the EU and make everything easier...

US Number: +1 xxx xxx-xxxx
with a new numbering plan in the EU: +2 xxx xxx-xxxx

that would be so awesome and move all of us in the EU closer and give as more sense of a union.

there's always hope for a little dreaming;-)
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post #106 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeonit View Post

since the US numbering plan has been working great fro so a high number of clients i wish the EU would adopt it too...

+2 for the EU then xxx for the area and xxx-xxxx for the number in that area code.

we're a little over 300 million right now in the EU, US is around 280 million. there should be no problem to re-organize the EU system...

that way it would become easier to remember numbers, easier to call in the EU and make everything easier...

US Number: +1 xxx xxx-xxxx
with a new numbering plan in the EU: +2 xxx xxx-xxxx

that would be so awesome and move all of us in the EU closer and give as more sense of a union.

there's always hope for a little dreaming;-)

It thought there were 360 mil in the EU. There are 300 mil here.
post #107 of 109
i wrote more than 300 million... for the EU and around 280 million for the US... so i was close...

estimates on population are very hard... in the EU there's a lot of undocumented people living and working, and they don't really show up in those statistics even though without them everything would fall apart...

edit: i just looked it up... EU is around 494 million for 2007 and the US is 304 million for 2007... since the EU snapped up new members it grew pretty fast in terms of population... and i thought i was knowledgeable about the EU... i was off 194 million..

so the EU is now 61.5% bigger in terms of population....

EU member states: 27
US member states: 50

both numbers from wikipedia.org and for the year 2007
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post #108 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeonit View Post

i wrote more than 300 million... for the EU and around 280 million for the US... so i was close...

estimates on population are very hard... in the EU there's a lot of undocumented people living and working, and they don't really show up in those statistics even though without them everything would fall apart...

edit: i just looked it up... EU is around 494 million for 2007 and the US is 304 million for 2007... since the EU snapped up new members it grew pretty fast in terms of population... and i thought i was knowledgeable about the EU... i was off 194 million..

so the EU is now 61.5% bigger in terms of population....

EU member states: 27
US member states: 50

both numbers from wikipedia.org and for the year 2007

I was using the western members for my number, as I thought you were doing that as well.

But, its not really a valid comparison, is it?

The US is actually one country, and the EU is still composed of separate member nations who rarely agree on anything enough to get one EU wide law passed, much less adhered to. The Constitution wasn't passed, and has an uncertain future. The older members aren't happy about the later crop of countries that have joined, as they are afraid of taxes going up, as well as workers coming over to take their jobs.

The larger nations regularly snub their noses at Brussels, and do whatever is best for them, and the worst for the EU, such as breaking their budgets, and creating "national champions" of companies that defy the anti-competition and monopoly rules.

Member states all have their own foreign policy.

There is a looong way to go there. Just look at this suit they have regarding Apple's iTunes store, and the various music licensing authorities. The EU states that there should be one store, and one price. But the countries don't care. They allow, and even protect, the authorities in their own countries.

Sorry for the diatribe, but the comparison between the EU and the US simply isn't valid.

Maybe someday, but certainly not now.
post #109 of 109
When the US telephone system was set, there was only one company that put it all together (AT&T). Europe now has dozens of companies all working toward their own benefit. But I do agree European phone numbers seem difficult to easily remember.
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