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Kucinich is a loon. An effing Loon, I tell you.

post #1 of 97
Thread Starter 
http://www.breitbart.tv/html/5418.html

After watching this interview, I am honestly at a loss for words. Now I know, Kucinich is the ultimate in lefty thinking and many of you love that. Fine.

But really listen to what he's saying. He went on Syrian TV and called our occupation of Iraq illegal. He basically called the President a liar. He said many things that completely undermine US efforts in Iraq, efforts that have been endorsed by the majority of Congress...whether you/he happen to agree with them or not.

In my opinion this stunningly wrong. I also think he is incredibly naive and was used for what amounts to anti-American propaganda by the Syrians. He thinks he's getting a voice. In reality he's just undermining our nation. You don't go on foreign TV and criticize your country when it has 160,000 troops on the ground. You don't do it.

But beyond that, what he's saying is just lunacy. We need to engage Iran and Syria to help us figure out Iraq? You mean Iran who is fighting a proxy war...that Iran? And Syria...a known terrorist state? Also, his rhetoric about "international community" is just tired and vague.

But what really gets me is he says we owe the Iraqis "reparations." We need to "really rebuild" their country instead of letting the corrupt Haliburton make it's profits. Oh, and we need to pull all the troops and dismantle the bases. Question: How the FUCK can we "really rebuild" them if we pull everyone out and security goes to total hell? Does he actually think that would work?

I'll stop there. Again, I know certain posters love Kucinich....but what he's saying just isn't logical. And it certainly wasn't right to criticize the effort like that on Syrian TV.
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post #2 of 97
You know, you could just write a quick ruby or python script to automate the posting of links you find on drudge.
post #3 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

You know, you could just write a quick ruby or python script to automate the posting of links you find on drudge.

It wouldn't be that easy though - you'd need some functions to check for variables in case any truth or logic crept in.

I know it's Drudge and the SDW filter should be fine in that regard but what worries me is the high volume of hits Drudge takes from SDW.... when you are in the low millions then some true facts might possibly seep through so you'd really need to guard against that.

Other than that it probably is quite simple; a few variables to populate with Syria or Iran depending on conditionals and an ignore on anything tagged with Saudi, Pakistan or torture...

Hey..it just hit me.....we're so out of the loop........he is actually doing this already.

You see - that's why he's the best.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #4 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I'll stop there. Again, I know certain posters love Kucinich....but what he's saying just isn't logical. And it certainly wasn't right to criticize the effort like that on Syrian TV.

Well, he's pissed you off. I'd say...



post #5 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

http://www.breitbart.tv/html/5418.html

After watching this interview, I am honestly at a loss for words. Now I know, Kucinich is the ultimate in lefty thinking and many of you love that. Fine.

But really listen to what he's saying. He went on Syrian TV and called our occupation of Iraq illegal. He basically called the President a liar. He said many things that completely undermine US efforts in Iraq, efforts that have been endorsed by the majority of Congress...whether you/he happen to agree with them or not.

In my opinion this stunningly wrong. I also think he is incredibly naive and was used for what amounts to anti-American propaganda by the Syrians. He thinks he's getting a voice. In reality he's just undermining our nation. You don't go on foreign TV and criticize your country when it has 160,000 troops on the ground. You don't do it.

But beyond that, what he's saying is just lunacy. We need to engage Iran and Syria to help us figure out Iraq? You mean Iran who is fighting a proxy war...that Iran? And Syria...a known terrorist state? Also, his rhetoric about "international community" is just tired and vague.

But what really gets me is he says we owe the Iraqis "reparations." We need to "really rebuild" their country instead of letting the corrupt Haliburton make it's profits. Oh, and we need to pull all the troops and dismantle the bases. Question: How the FUCK can we "really rebuild" them if we pull everyone out and security goes to total hell? Does he actually think that would work?

I'll stop there. Again, I know certain posters love Kucinich....but what he's saying just isn't logical. And it certainly wasn't right to criticize the effort like that on Syrian TV.

I think I agreed with just about everything the man said. He is not afraid to say what he believes to be the truth and I find that to be a strength not something to be mocked.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #6 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

After watching this interview, I am honestly at a loss for words.

I can tell.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

But really listen to what he's saying.

OK!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

He went on Syrian TV and called our occupation of Iraq illegal.

At the very least, our invasion and occupation of Iraq is of debatable legality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

He basically called the President a liar.

Is that such a shockingly new allegation against this President?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

He said many things that completely undermine US efforts in Iraq, efforts that have been endorsed by the majority of Congress...whether you/he happen to agree with them or not.

Kucinich's comments completely undermine US efforts in Iraq?

What does that even mean besides alluding to the similarly vague and dumb-witted accusation of giving "aid and comfort to the enemy?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

In reality he's just undermining our nation. You don't go on foreign TV and criticize your country when it has 160,000 troops on the ground. You don't do it.

You have strong opinions, certainly.

But we're left scratching our heads and wondering, well, why? Argue something and back it up with reasons.
post #7 of 97
It's that Darn Liberal MEDIA...

It's that Darn Kookcinich....

It's that Darn Hillary....

It's those darn liberals...

It's those evildoers..

Ya know those Islamofascists....

It's those darn Michael Moore whackos...

and on and on and on.......

I blame all those liberals and evildoers for all the failings of the Bush admin...

That's right it is those lefties at fault..

LOL

Ohhhhh and I almost forgot... It is those darn Move on.org people too.

Did I mention Air America?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #8 of 97
SDW's rather hammy horror at the prospect of negotiating with Iran and Syria really shows how ill-informed on these matters he really is. Or how prejudiced. Or both.

The fact is that a groundswell of opinion is inexorably moving in this direction - even Blair recommended it and now he has gone numerous UK military brass say it is inevitable.

It will happen. And it will resolve the issue. It's just a question of how much death and destruction occurs before our leaders publicly admit it - exactly as happened with the IRA.

I say 'publicly' because odds are it is already happening - to think otherwise is naive. The only reason that they don't admit it is because of the knee-jerk reactions of people like SDW who do not understand the realities of the situation.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #9 of 97
That's a fantastic expression.

"Hammy horror."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

It's that Darn Liberal MEDIA...

It's that Darn Kookcinich....

It's that Darn Hillary....

It's those darn liberals...

It's those evildoers..

Ya know those Islamofascists....

It's those darn Michael Moore whackos...

and on and on and on.......

I blame all those liberals and evildoers for all the failings of the Bush admin...

That's right it is those lefties at fault..

LOL

Ohhhhh and I almost forgot... It is those darn Move on.org people too.

Did I mention Air America?

Fellows

Did you forget the hippies?

Don't forget those damn dirty hippies.
post #10 of 97
I can tell the news source is biased because they called Kucinich a presidential candidate. Also Drudge is biased because linking to the video gives Kucinich more exposure than his own campaign could afford in a hundred years. He clearly wants Kucinich to be heard.

He is about as much a presidential candidate as Mary Carey, and Gary Coleman were candidates for governor of California. Their name is on a ballot and well... that is about it.

I would actually be surprised if Kucinich didn't say things more outrageous than this. How else will he get that small but motivated minority out there to send him the few dollars he manages to get?

I challenge anyone on here who defends to statements of Kucinich to actually donate to his campaign. Make his views legitimate by giving him so of your legitimately earned cash. Show that speaking the truth should be rewarded with political donations.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #11 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I can tell the news source is biased because they called Kucinich a presidential candidate.

Zing!

post #12 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

You know, you could just write a quick ruby or python script to automate the posting of links you find on drudge.

What makes you think he doesn't already have it? Probably V. 3 now.
post #13 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Don't forget those damn dirty hippies.

What about the damn dirty apes?

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #14 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

What about the damn dirty apes?

post #15 of 97
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

You know, you could just write a quick ruby or python script to automate the posting of links you find on drudge.

OMG! Drudge! It's invalid! How dare I start threads from Drudge!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I think I agreed with just about everything the man said. He is not afraid to say what he believes to be the truth and I find that to be a strength not something to be mocked.

Fellows

Then with all due respect, you're off your rocker. And there are two issues anyway:

1. What he said, most of which is just utterly wrong and illogical.
2. Where he said it and who he said it to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

I can tell.

Left myself open for that.


Quote:

OK!

Awesome!

Quote:

At the very least, our invasion and occupation of Iraq is of debatable legality.

I don't know about that. I'd actually say at the very most. It was unquestionably legal from the standpoint of US law. "International law" is basically meaningless in this regard. If it was followed, there would never be another war again. But whatever...the problem wasn't even the opinion. It was where he said it, why he said it, and to whom he said it.
Quote:


Is that such a shockingly new allegation against this President?

No, of course not. That's really not the point. See above.

Quote:
Kucinich's comments completely undermine US efforts in Iraq?

What does that even mean besides alluding to the similarly vague and dumb-witted accusation of giving "aid and comfort to the enemy?"

OK, "completely" was not a word I needed to include there. But it damages the effort on the political stage, particularly internationally. His comments will also be used as propaganda in the ME.

Quote:

You have strong opinions, certainly.

Who, me?

Quote:

But we're left scratching our heads and wondering, well, why? Argue something and back it up with reasons.

That makes little sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

It's that Darn Liberal MEDIA...

It's that Darn Kookcinich....

It's that Darn Hillary....

It's those darn liberals...

It's those evildoers..

Ya know those Islamofascists....

It's those darn Michael Moore whackos...

and on and on and on.......

I blame all those liberals and evildoers for all the failings of the Bush admin...

That's right it is those lefties at fault..

LOL

Ohhhhh and I almost forgot... It is those darn Move on.org people too.

Did I mention Air America?

Fellows

No one in their right mind blames the failures of the Bush Administration on the above groups. I never once claimed that, certainly not in this thread of all places. The failures and mistakes the admin has made do not excuse Kucinich's comments though, or make them appropriate or make him any more fit to be President.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

SDW's rather hammy horror at the prospect of negotiating with Iran and Syria really shows how ill-informed on these matters he really is. Or how prejudiced. Or both.

Pot. Kettle.

Quote:

The fact is that a groundswell of opinion is inexorably moving in this direction - even Blair recommended it and now he has gone numerous UK military brass say it is inevitable.

I love how you think that using the words "groundswell" and "inexorably" makes your point any more valid. What "groundswell" and from whom is it coming?

Quote:

It will happen. And it will resolve the issue. It's just a question of how much death and destruction occurs before our leaders publicly admit it - exactly as happened with the IRA.

I say 'publicly' because odds are it is already happening - to think otherwise is naive. The only reason that they don't admit it is because of the knee-jerk reactions of people like SDW who do not understand the realities of the situation.

It must be nice to believe you're the smartest guy in the room, eh seg? I certainly think that we do talk to Iran on these matters. But expanding these talks, holding them publicly, etc? I can't see how that would help at present.

Secondly, if this approach is already being taken in secret, why do Kucinich and Lefties such as yourself fault the Bush Administration for not engaging in the discussions?
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post #16 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

It's that Darn Liberal MEDIA...

It's that Darn Kookcinich....

It's that Darn Hillary....

It's those darn liberals...

It's those evildoers..

Ya know those Islamofascists....

It's those darn Michael Moore whackos...

and on and on and on.......

I blame all those liberals and evildoers for all the failings of the Bush admin...

That's right it is those lefties at fault..

LOL

Ohhhhh and I almost forgot... It is those darn Move on.org people too.

Did I mention Air America?

Fellows


That darn Tennent!

That darn Rumsfeld!

That darn Gonzales!

Gee! It seems like it's everyone's fault except Bush and Cheney!

What would happen if they start eyeballing each other for the blame?


And yes those " damn dirty apes "!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #17 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I think I agreed with just about everything the man said. He is not afraid to say what he believes to be the truth and I find that to be a strength not something to be mocked.

Fellows

Yea me too but I do think that Kucinish is being both unrealistic and a "useful idiot" to a guy like Assad.
post #18 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

OMG! Drudge! It's invalid! How dare I start threads from Drudge!

Actually, that's absolutely correct. At this point, it's less about drudge than it is about how you keep reading and getting hysterical about stuff on drudge despite the fact that it invariably turns out to be not quite what you believed, which is putting it mildly.
post #19 of 97
Since Drudge is only an aggregator of news, and seldom a generator of news, isn't complaining about him an almost pure version of shooting the messenger?

Drudge linked to Breitbart who provided a pure feed of the a Kucinich interview on Syrian television. There aren't any real time polls, responses from confederates or conspirators, talking heads or spinmeisters involved.

What more do you want? Is Drudge linking to the actual first hand source now is bias?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #20 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Since Drudge is only an aggregator of news, and seldom a generator of news, isn't complaining about him an almost pure version of shooting the messenger?

No, and no.
post #21 of 97
Kucinich is a blame-America-first typical DNC socialist. No more, no less. Fuck him.
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post #22 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

No, and no.

Well with logic like that, who can argue.

Here's your sand pail and shovel. I'm sure the other kids in the sandbox will have reasoning on a similarly high level as no...no...no.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #23 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Kucinich is a blame-America-first typical DNC socialist. No more, no less. Fuck him.


"Blame America First" is outdated BS.

Nobody is blaming the US. The whole wide world (save the neocon cheerleaders) are Blaming the Bush Admin.

Blame Bush First? You are damn right.

Blame America First = BULLSHIT.

Fellows

Jubelum you know better.
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #24 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Blame America First = BULLSHIT.

Fellows... you cannot deny that there is a sect of people out there that DO blame America first, and find fault in ALL CASES to make the US the problem.

I'm sorry, but the DNC has a great list of reasons that America is the problem in the world. Our CO2. Our capitalism. Our military. Our wealth. Our SUVs. Our guns. Our Exxon. Our resistance to subverting our own laws and Constitution to that of the UN and EU. Our propensity to look out for out national interests, just like every other country in the world does.

Our "cold and heartless, compassionless" society that will not "take care" of everyone from cradle to grave. Our electorate that is suspicious of playing "mother may I" with international bodies full of dictators and thugs like Prez Tom and Hugo.

Many of the things that made this country the lone superpower in the world are lamented by the left. That's just the truth. The 1960s chickens have come home to roost, and are now the majority in Congress. Where would the US be if the 60s kids had succeeded in destroying the eeevil US Military THEN? They've been enraged at the military since their college days, and now they are running full page ads in the NYT to trash a commanding general that was unanimously confirmed. These people are no different than they were in their formative years. They simply never grew out of what their professors filled their heads with.

We've brought more advances to this planet than any country in history, we've fought wars of liberation since our founding, and our capitalist republic system has been the aspiration of billions of people. We've done more to unlock human potential than any nation in history, and then shared those advancements with the rest of the planet.

Yet there are those who simply HATE all that this country has achieved and stands for, and are hell-bent on destroying it economically and socially- many for the same reasons that the Soviets had- "it's not FAIR that everyone not be equal in the world..." Others share the same destructive goal, but for the sake of growing radical islam.

Have there been mistakes made in American history? Of course. Huge mistakes. Mistakes and evil worthy of criticism and harsh rebuke. From Native Americans to slavery to ....., ......., ......, and Iraq in some senses.

Chances are in today's world, if you see a US politician trashing the US in the media or on foreign soil, it will be a Democrat. Kerry. Carter. Clinton. McDermott. Pelosi. Murtha. Kucinich is just the latest of a long line. No one should be surprised that they get called on this...

And not to be outdone in damaging the nation, the Republicans did their part to spend us into eternity like the liberal democrats of the previous 40 years, all the while both parties were jumping on board with further eroding civil liberties and privacy.

Don't like the war, guys? Let's all quit paying our taxes. No more war. No more nanny state. No more. Smaller governments don't spend a trillion or more on a war you disagree with. But that means you have to let go of the nanny state socialist fantasy as well.
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post #25 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post


Was that a storyboard from the end of Spaceballs?
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post #26 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I say 'publicly' because odds are it is already happening - to think otherwise is naive. The only reason that they don't admit it is because of the knee-jerk reactions of people like SDW who do not understand the realities of the situation.

Does anyone understand the realities of the situation? I think there are people who understand the situation as it casts onto their own beliefs and perspectives, which I suppose is as real as the human experience gets. What it seems you're saying is that there's some understanding here that's correct, and other that are not. Very black and white thinking for a moral relativist. . .
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post #27 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

Does anyone understand the realities of the situation?

sego understands his reality of the situation, I mean, being our resident expert on all things Mideast.
Unless you are in-country, and aware of all the intel (like, uh, I dunno... PETRAEUS) then I'd say the realities of the situation are very much open to your political filter.
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post #28 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

"Blame America First" is outdated BS.

Nobody is blaming the US. The whole wide world (save the neocon cheerleaders) are Blaming the Bush Admin.

Blame Bush First? You are damn right.

Blame America First = BULLSHIT.

I'd venture a guess that aside from those in this world who are vehemently against our support of Israel, there aren't really that many people who are justifiably disgusted with the United States. Sure, there will be some disapproval of the fact that the US has a big, market economy and strong military, but this is merely for the same reason people disapproved of the Brits and the Romans: basic spite. This kind of spite would probably exist whether or not Bush were president. I just don't get the impression that many people, as in "the whole wide world," are that perturbed about the whole situation. I would bet that India and China are quite pleased. I'm not even certain that the majority of western european governments are more than slightly distressed with the outcome of the Bush admin.

It's valid to criticize the Bush administration, especially given their foibles of the past few years. But I just don't buy the argument that the whole world hates America or the Bush administration. I think indifference is the primary reaction, and that many more people of the world fear Islam than they do the USA. That, perhaps, is a larger reason for concern.
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post #29 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

sego understands his reality of the situation, I mean, being our resident expert on all things Mideast.
Unless you are in-country, and aware of all the intel (like, uh, I dunno... PETRAEUS) then I'd say the realities of the situation are very much open to your political filter.

Lot's of people understand the realities of the situation. Even on here.

Unfortunately SDW isn't one of them. That's all I'm saying.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #30 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Lot's of people understand the realities of the situation. Even on here.

Unfortunately SDW isn't one of them. That's all I'm saying.

We must be tolerant of his reality, though, right?
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post #31 of 97
It's ironic SDW refers to Kucinich as a loony. I read his rant before I watched the clip. The only lunatic I see in this thread is the author. There was nothing wrong or untrue with what Kucinich said.

Die hard supporters of this failed President and his failed policies desperately try and save face by spinning the shit out of issues, spreading disinformation, spewing party talking points and demonizing the dissenters and opposition. It's fucking pathetic.
post #32 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akumulator View Post

save face by spinning the shit out of issues, spreading disinformation, spewing party talking points and demonizing the dissenters and opposition. It's fucking pathetic.



And the left does the EXACT SAME SHIT. Do you not think that the democrats do the same thing? Really? Need me to give you examples?

This is where we are in 2007 America.
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post #33 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post



And the left does the EXACT SAME SHIT. Do you not think that the democrats do the same thing? Really? Need me to give you examples?

This is where we are in 2007 America.

I'd rather have a leader who's full of shit and makes mistakes with his penis than a leader who is full of shit and makes a mistake with our military, our economy and our good name. I guess I'm crazy that way.
post #34 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Lot's of people understand the realities of the situation. Even on here.

What do you consider to be the realities of the situation? That people are dying? Is that really so intolerable? The human race isn't perfect, you know, and we must account for the fact that the optimal solutions may not be available to us. I'm certainly skeptical that peaceful accords could do much to mitigate the problem: the west doesn't appreciate being culturally usurped, and the Islamic world, well, doesn't seem to appreciate modernity.

So, it's a judgement call. There are people who, for whatever reason, are of the opinion that the west needs to embrace Islamic culture. There are people who do not share this opinion. But to consider that humanity is remotely close to the stage in development where cross-cultural exchanges will always be mutually beneficial . . . well, that's hopelessly optimisitic, bordering arrogant.

Kucinich and the dems seem to embrace the "not west" position, which is so puzzling to conservatives. It's hard to make sense of a western, socially liberal politician embracing a culture that is chiefly at odds with his belief structure, or at least the one echoed in his campaign. That's the reality of the situation.
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post #35 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

"Blame America First" is outdated BS.

Nobody is blaming the US. The whole wide world (save the neocon cheerleaders) are Blaming the Bush Admin.

Blame Bush First? You are damn right.

Blame America First = BULLSHIT.

Fellows

Jubelum you know better.

You are welcome to show how it is appropriate to blame only Bush when the Democrats in Congress voted for the war and have continued to vote for and give Bush everything a Republican Congress gave or would give.

The world, if you consider the world to be Old Europe did bash Bush to make various political plays within their own countries. However the leaders who did this within their respective countries are gone. They have been replaced by or defeated in elections by other candidates who are not trying to save their own butts and retain office by screaming bumper sticker slogans.



NY Times

DES MOINES, Aug. 11 Even as they call for an end to the war and pledge to bring the troops home, the Democratic presidential candidates are setting out positions that could leave the United States engaged in Iraq for years.

John Edwards, the former North Carolina senator, would keep troops in the region to intervene in an Iraqi genocide and be prepared for military action if violence spills into other countries. Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York would leave residual forces to fight terrorism and to stabilize the Kurdish region in the north. And Senator Barack Obama of Illinois would leave a military presence of as-yet unspecified size in Iraq to provide security for American personnel, fight terrorism and train Iraqis.


These positions and those of some rivals suggest that the Democratic bumper-sticker message of a quick end to the conflict however much it appeals to primary voters oversimplifies the problems likely to be inherited by the next commander in chief. Antiwar advocates have raised little challenge to such positions by Democrats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I'd rather have a leader who's full of shit and makes mistakes with his penis than a leader who is full of shit and makes a mistake with our military, our economy and our good name. I guess I'm crazy that way.

You are right. I'm only imagining that Clinton used the military in Haiti, Somalia, that we spent several months dropping thousands of bombs in former Yugoslavia in an attempt to...... fix a civil war and ethnic cleansing. In fact Clinton used our military to police the world jumping into civil wars all over the place.

Also thank goodness Clinton stopped lobbing bombs at Iraq, and declared them a simple paper tiger who everyone knew had no WMD's and thus anyone who attempt to lie about this, or gain votes towards it would know better.

I think your glasses are a little rose colored and polarized.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #36 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

What do you consider to be the realities of the situation?

Depends - I have a feeling you are speaking generally. My remark referred to the reality that the West will have to butt out or deal with Iran and/or Syria.

There is another option of course: humiliating defeat - but I am assuming that isn't under consideration.

So those are the realities I was thinking of. Of course there are many others on many levels depending on context and other things.

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That people are dying? Is that really so intolerable?

To me yes. To you, obviously not. The fact of the deaths is a reality to be sure, but neither your reaction to that reality or my reaction are in themselves 'realities' but rather are conditioned perspectives.

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The human race isn't perfect, you know, and we must account for the fact that the optimal solutions may not be available to us.

I would rather say that it contains imperfect elements.... unfortunately these are in positions of power.

It's ok. The human race is very young and is evolving from these imperfections - in a way they are natural. We have gone from caveman to Atilla the Hun, to Ghengis Khan, to Hitler to Saddam and now to Bush and co....

Each is a massive improvement. Soon (biological time) they will all be a bad dream. Or maybe not remembered at all which will be even better.

Quote:
I'm certainly skeptical that peaceful accords could do much to mitigate the problem: the west doesn't appreciate being culturally usurped, and the Islamic world, well, doesn't seem to appreciate modernity.

I probably wouldn't try to speak for 'the West' if I were you. It's a bit too big a step....stick to arguing your points on an unimportant MB like this, we need to keep perspective.

Having said that I think we could usefully rephrase:

"Certain reactionary and right-wing xenophobic elements in the West believe they are being 'usurped' and as they are insecure individuals this provides a useful hook on which to hang their developing neuroses"

Of course it does not help that their 'leaders' are the ones who feed their neuroses but that is another story....

As for 'the Islamic World' and 'modernity' (I wonder what you think of when you say this? Nothing that exists in reality surely) perhaps you should take a trip to Abu Dhabi, Dubai or UAE and then we'll talk.

Of course what you really mean is: the Islamic world does not appreciate the current US policies as acted out in the ME.

Too right. Nor do I. Nor do many people. You don't need to be Islamic to see through the BS. It helps of course which is why there is a War on Islam - but that is really only because Islam is the 'last man standing', all other 'threats' to complete Western control have now been neutralized.

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So, it's a judgement call. There are people who, for whatever reason, are of the opinion that the west needs to embrace Islamic culture.

True. Very few but they exist. I would say there are more Islamophobes afraid of this then people who want it hough.

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There are people who do not share this opinion.

Yes. Millions. Millions of them are even Muslims.

So many people in fact that it makes a mockery of the idea that it is even possible.

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But to consider that humanity is remotely close to the stage in development where cross-cultural exchanges will always be mutually beneficial . . . well, that's hopelessly optimisitic, bordering arrogant.

You say that because you are of the constituency that is beyond help in that regard...with an agenda even. But then you seem to regard 'cross-cultural interaction' (?) as some sort of threat.

Perhaps it is in a way. The civil rights movement was indeed a threat to dyed in the wool racists and I suppose they were right when they discussed it in those terms.

But people far more intelligent and influential than you have already launched the boat in this regard. You are too late.

Quote:
Kucinich and the dems seem to embrace the "not west" position, which is so puzzling to conservatives. It's hard to make sense of a western, socially liberal politician embracing a culture that is chiefly at odds with his belief structure, or at least the one echoed in his campaign. That's the reality of the situation.

That's always the reality of the situation - that was the reality of the situation when the IRA were murdering people in London. Hard to embrace but one day it was inevitable that the two sides got together.

You see that was my point - which you seem incapable of grasping (the alternative that you actively oppose it in principle would be an insult to consider); that AT SOME POINT two opposing sides will get together.

You can be a uniter or a divider.... division always leads to conflict but at some point it always stops. Always.

I would say why not now?

Why not bring Iran and Syria in now?

Of course there are many people - and you and SDW may well be of their number - that would prefer to bomb the populace of those two places to shit BEFORE sitting round the table.

Perhaps you believe it is impossible to sit round a table and negotiate WITHOUT having 'proved your strength' - but I don't .

Why not do it now? All I've heard is foaming at the mouth and labeling it 'insane' while gibbering about 'Islamofascists'. There's no substance to it and no solutions...

One more thing: Someone I respect greatly - and who incidentally is a real Christian embodying the spirit of Christ - is the Archbishop of Canterbury's Middle East envoy Terry Waite who you may remember was sent to Lebanon to secure the release of hostages and was kidnapped himself and held hostage for FOUR YEARS by militant Islamists.

Of anyone knows 'the reality of the situation' it is him. An expert on the Middle east who was himself a hostage for 1,763 days - the first FOUR YEARS in solitary confinement.

What does he think of the situation today? What are his views based on his experiences?

Find out here

And here...

Quote:
"No insurgency or terrorism has been defeated by warfare or violence. My own experience shows that you can talk to those whose positions seem impossible," said Waite.

"There are some rational players in al Qaeda but it also attracts the psychotic. We need to seek an entry point."

And again:

Quote:
Dialogue, not war, is the right way to tackle the extremist elements in the Islamic world, including Al Qaeda, according to Terry Waite, who successfully negotiated for the release of hostages in Libya and Iran.

Waite said "From my experience of talking with the so-called extremist groups and individuals like the Revolutionary Guards in Iran, Colonel Gaddafi in Libya and Hezbollah in Lebanon, I believe we should address the reasons behind extremism."

Don't be premature. Give dialogue a chance," he added.

Waite called for a dialogue with Al Qaeda, in the same way talks were held with the Irish Republican Army (IRA), the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) and the African National Congress (ANC).

Talking to Al Qaeda involves the question, whom we would talk to: what is Al Qaeda," said Waite. Al Qaeda has been attributed an organisational structure which it really doesn't have. "I don't think Osama bin Laden will be ready to sit and talk with George W Bush, said Waite.

"Al Qaeda is not representative of the Islamic world. We should deal with the Islamic world in general and try to explore the root cause of the problem," he noted.

Waite was also of the mind that ransoms should never be paid for hostages, as was allegedly the case with the South Koreans held captive by the Taleban in Afghanistan.

When Bush said "you are either with us or against us" he was right. You are either on the side of dialogue, uniting, reason and longing for peace - and on the side of Terry Waite and millions like him....

Or you are on the side of disunity, force, will through strength and control, the arms business and longing for war - and on the side of all those who argue that is the only way.

Sooner or later we will all have to choose and we should think carefully - you never know until it is too late just who you will be standing next to when you have chosen your side.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #37 of 97
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

Actually, that's absolutely correct. At this point, it's less about drudge than it is about how you keep reading and getting hysterical about stuff on drudge despite the fact that it invariably turns out to be not quite what you believed, which is putting it mildly.

Drudge links to mainstream news sites for the most part. I don't see the problem, other than it makes you throw up in your mouth to realize that Matt Drudge is a....<gulp> Conservative.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #38 of 97
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

No, and no.

Wrong, wrong and wrong. If you have another argument, perhaps you could consider posting it? Drudge often quotes headlines of major news sites (NYT, LAT, Breitbart, Reuters, AP, WashPost, et al) directly and without edit. He will occasionally "juice up" the headline and he's certainly sensationalistic, but for the most part his headline snapshots are indicative of what the articles are about. There are exceptions, where I have read the article and thought "that really isn't what this says...the headline is just inflammatory."

But of course, it's much easier for you to perceive me as someone who doesn't READ the article and is incapable of critical thinking. It's much easier to post your drivel when you can portray your opponent as a lemming winger of sorts. Ironically, it's you...the NUTroots that all sound the same.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #39 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Drudge links to mainstream news sites for the most part. I don't see the problem, other than it makes you throw up in your mouth to realize that Matt Drudge is a....<gulp> Conservative.

That's starting to carry a negative reference now days. You can thank Mr. Bush for that!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #40 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You see that was my point - which you seem incapable of grasping (the alternative that you actively oppose it in principle would be an insult to consider); that AT SOME POINT two opposing sides will get together.

You can be a uniter or a divider.... division always leads to conflict but at some point it always stops. Always.

I would say why not now?

Why not bring Iran and Syria in now?

Of course there are many people - and you and SDW may well be of their number - that would prefer to bomb the populace of those two places to shit BEFORE sitting round the table.

Perhaps you believe it is impossible to sit round a table and negotiate WITHOUT having 'proved your strength' - but I don't .

Neither should Splinemodel, SDW, et al...





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