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Iraq: Blackwater Massacre

post #1 of 228
Thread Starter 
Reports are coming in that outsourced mercenaries Blackwater have run amok in Baghdad and a massacre of Iraqi citizens has somehow taken place.

Imagine my shock.

Quote:
Officials are investigating a shooting incident in Baghdad in which at least eight civilians were reported killed by private US security contractors.

At least 13 people were also injured in the shooting in a busy part of Baghdad.

It broke out at about 1230 local time on Nisoor Square in the predominantly Sunni neighbourhood of Mansour, a police officer told the Associated Press news agency.

A witness said the shooting erupted after an explosion.

"We saw a convoy of SUVs passing in the street nearby. One minute later, we heard the sound of a bomb explosion followed by gunfire that lasted for 20 minutes between gunmen and the convoy people who were foreigners and dressed in civilian clothes.

"Everybody in the street started to flee immediately," Hussein Abdul-Abbas, a local shop owner, told AP.

"I was driving behind my brother's car and suddenly there was an explosion and firing. I tried to figure out what was happening when I saw a black convoy ahead of us," he told the AFP news agency.

"Soon after I saw my brother slump in the car. I dragged him out of the car and tried to hide to avoid the firing but realised that he had been shot in the chest and was already dead," he said.

Thousands of private security staff are employed by businessmen, journalists and dignitaries in lawless Iraq. They are often heavily armed, but critics say some are not properly trained - even trigger-happy - and are not accountable except to their employers.

Sunday's violence followed the publication of a survey of Iraqis which suggested that up to 1.2m people might have died because of the conflict in Iraq.



Edit: (before anyone complains) I know the title of this thread may be a bit OTT but I don't know how to change it or I would
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post #2 of 228
I wonder if this move by the Iraqi government has anything to do with this...

Blackwater license being pulled in Iraq

Quote:
BAGHDAD - The Iraqi government said Monday that it was pulling the license of an American security firm allegedly involved in the fatal shooting of civilians during an attack on a U.S. State Department motorcade in Baghdad.

The Interior Ministry said it would prosecute any foreign contractors found to have used excessive force in the Sunday shooting. It was latest accusation against the U.S.-contracted firms that operate with little or no supervision and are widely disliked by Iraqis who resent their speeding motorcades and forceful behavior.

Interior Ministry spokesman Abdul-Karim Khalaf said eight civilians were killed and 13 were wounded when security contractors believed to be working for Blackwater USA opened fire in a predominantly Sunni neighborhood of western Baghdad.

"We have canceled the license of Blackwater and prevented them from working all over Iraqi territory. We will also refer those involved to Iraqi judicial authorities," Khalaf said.

Er, I guess so...this'll be fun to watch.
post #3 of 228
Thread Starter 
^^^ Something tells me they won't be going quietly.....
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post #4 of 228
"some catch on faster than others"
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post #5 of 228




post #6 of 228
Oh my gosh, they use up-armored vehicles when doing security in a war zone!
Oh, the horror! The Shock!
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post #7 of 228
Condi Rice now says that there will be a fair and transparent investigation into the massacre.

Haaaa... haaaaa. haaaa. Are they now going to tell us that the Sun rises in the West? As if!!!!!!

The terrorist group known as Blackwater are no better than al Qaeda. Just because their personnel are mostly "white, "Christian and are contracted by the US Government" doesn't exclude them.
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post #8 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Oh my gosh, they use up-armored vehicles when doing security in a war zone!
Oh, the horror! The Shock!

Well...since you're having such a wargasm over these, here's some more...













Not all of these are Blackwater trucks, some are fringe contract security types. Maybe Iraqi.
post #9 of 228
Blackwater gets booted for 8 deaths... why in the heck hasn't the US military been booted yet?

Or is there a hidden agenda? To make up for the lost security, we will need another Serge, I mean Surge.

??
?

 

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post #10 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Oh my gosh, they use up-armored vehicles when doing security in a war zone!
Oh, the horror! The Shock!

Look like Technicals to me!



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post #11 of 228
What exactly would you crybabies like them to drive? An 82 Datsun convertible? The Barbie jeep?

Geez... Lets give this a try...

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post #12 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

The terrorist group known as Blackwater

I know a number of BWUSA operators. Terrorists? You should think about what would have happened or would be happening if BWUSA was not there. You'd be screaming about a whole other set of horrors. Trust me.
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post #13 of 228
Nice skull and crossbones...


Shows just how much they care.
post #14 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akumulator View Post

Shows just how much they care.

These are mercenaries. They are not the Care Bears.

BTW.. the skull and cross bones works in any language concerning that M-60, dontcha think?
Not much need for translation there. Who cares if they paint them purple and blast Jimmy Hendrix... they are there to do a job and they do it well.
If there is cause and evidence, I say fry em... but don't underestimate their value because of one incident. If this were systemic, we'd have them thrown out a long time ago.

Maybe that now they are relieved of Iraq duty, they can get back to their other jobs of protecting Exxon and Halliburton in Nigeria.
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post #15 of 228
Right. Our military aren't care bears either. Maybe they should dress appropriately...

post #16 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akumulator View Post

Right. Our military aren't care bears either. Maybe they should dress appropriately...

Ohhhh... a NAZI reference... THAT'S never been done before...
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post #17 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

I know a number of BWUSA operators. Terrorists? You should think about what would have happened or would be happening if BWUSA was not there. You'd be screaming about a whole other set of horrors. Trust me.

Ah, their's the rub. Now the soldiers are going to have to guard their own senior officers and state officials. May have to be assigned again to guard convoys too. Just when things were "getting better" (or worse, take your pick) the stakes get higher. We'll just have to wait and see if Muqtada al-Sadr and his re-grouped gang of thugs honor their 6 month freeze and "al Qaeda" goes on a siesta.

On second thought maybe they will simply change the name they are operating under and nothing else.

"Blackwater? Never heard of 'em. We're called 'Whitewash'".
post #18 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Ohhhh... a NAZI reference... THAT'S never been done before...

Oh yeah right... I should've used this image since it's all so entertaining to you. The point is, our military wouldn't use any symbols like that because it would be degrading to the people we are trying to protect. The skull and cross bones only symbolizes death. They are labeling themselves as nothing but a death squad. What is the purpose of them being there?
post #19 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akumulator View Post

What is the purpose of them being there?

If you don't know, you should not be speaking with such "authority" in this thread.
Death squads? Mr. DePalma, is that you?

They are there, in part, to take pressure off of the DSS (with so many high-value targets in the theater, DSS would be completely overwhelmed, not to mention that DSS was never designed to guard an entire parliament, military officers from other countries, etc) and to keep our special forces people fighting insurgents (oh, sorry, the "justified resistance to the occupation").

I'd say, though Mr. Prince does not disclose such facts usually, that over 80% of BWUSA operators are former US-SOCOM operators.
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post #20 of 228
I believe it was Christ who remarked, "If you want to make an omelet, you gotta break some eggs".

Or brains. Whatever.
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post #21 of 228
You know, I'm a flaming liberal, and vociferously opposed to 99% of the contracting in Iraq. I'm opposed to the companies for example. But the people? The actual people? These are Americans. They have families. There are a few psychos who got over there and have killed or raped civilians. I'd personally sentence them to the death penalty with extreme prejudice, one of the policies I applaud Bush for incidentally. And of course they never get more than a slap on the wrist.

But most of these people are just over there because they could use the extra cash. I personally have quasi-seriously considered going on a stint as an environmental technician, perhaps in water supply, to make a boatload of money and gain valuable project management experience. It's given me pause, pondering that. These people want to come home, perhaps to kids. So when people who might be terrorists start shooting at them, they're going to shoot back. I can't blame them. I'd probably do the same. And so would you. Unless you're suicidal. Sure I'd also get the heck out of there, but that's not to say I wouldn't defend myself. I hate Blackwater as a company, and they probably have a lot of psychos there. But I don't like this broad classification of ALL their employees as Nazis. That's wrong and dishonest.
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post #22 of 228
This is a discussion of the mercenaries that are over there, not the guys honestly trying to help build the country via public works projects. The problem is that many of them go over there and retain their American attitudes and behaviors, which don't necessarily go down too well with the locals: the second post quotes an article that says the contract warriors are widely disliked, something that doesn't surprise me in the least. If you take your average American tough-guy, he will not be liked in most places, including the US. Americans are famous for being pushy, selfish, arrogant and so on in many countries, simply because of a difference in culture. It's not that one is right and the other is wrong; they are just different. When you go into another country where the vast majority of the people are not terrorists, you must adapt to their ways, otherwise it is an unwelcome intrusion and will possibly breed more of the terrorists we are so scared of in the first place. However much I hate to say this, the mercs are ambassadors, if you will, and if they screw up, we all pay for a long time. Killing innocent civilians is screwing up. Sadly, the US military has been doing the same and worse, but they are allowed to stay because they aren't contracted.

 

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post #23 of 228
The Iraq Blackwater Test

Quote:
First problem. Blackwater does not have a license to operate in Iraq and does not need one.

They have a U.S. State Department contract through Diplomatic Security. Instead of using Diplomatic Security officers or hiring new Security officers or relying on U.S. military personnel, the Bush Administration has contracted with firms like Blackwater, Triple Canopy, and others for people capable of conducting personnel security details. State Department is not about to curtail the contract with Blackwater, who is tightly wired into Washington. Plus, State Department simply does not have the bodies available to carry out the security mission.

Second problem. The Iraqi government has zero power to enforce a decision to oust a firm like Blackwater. For starters, Blackwater has a bigger air force and more armored vehicles then the Iraqi Army and police put together. As Spencer Ackerman reported, Blackwater's little bird helicopter (an aircraft normally used by U.S. special operations forces) that was firing mini guns at Iraqi targets on the ground this past weekend.

Remember, Blackwater is one of over forty security contractors in Iraq and if they leave (unlikely) there could be another replacement. Astonishing that Iraqi's don't even have a say in what they want or don't want in their country anymore. A shining definition of the American way. It does poke a hole in the claims that Iraq is a sovereign country too, but many didn't really believe that anyhow.

Blackwater refusing to leave will be the beginning of the end for us there.

This will raise such a shit-storm, every Iraq could turn on us. The situation will get 1000x worse for us there and we'll run out of there with our tails between our legs.

Then Iran will fill the power vacuum.

And Jubelum, Go and look at the Blackwater application page on their website, it's basically looking for people who want more excitement in their lives. Hiring people like that you can't stop from them trying to make their own excitement...and they have no recourse for what they do over here. They're not accountable to anyone.
post #24 of 228
All the security companies will be reviewed.

One of the biggest problems, however is a little article written by the US that sorta makes you wonder:

"Order No. 17, a law issued by the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq before the Iraqis regained sovereignty in June 2004, gave the companies immunity from Iraqi prosecution."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070918/...SDB6dm8VGs0NUE

 

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post #25 of 228
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

All the security companies will be reviewed.

One of the biggest problems, however is a little article written by the US that sorta makes you wonder:

"Order No. 17, a law issued by the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq before the Iraqis regained sovereignty in June 2004, gave the companies immunity from Iraqi prosecution."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070918/...SDB6dm8VGs0NUE

It's almost like the US does not want a democratic Iraq isn't it?

If you started from day one of the invasion to make a plan for utter chaos and prevent democracy I doubt you could come up with something more effective in that direction than the US's actions since that time.
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post #26 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

This is a discussion of the mercenaries that are over there, not the guys honestly trying to help build the country via public works projects.

A lot of the Blackwater mercenaries are US police officers, who are over there because they were offered so much money that they could not refuse. The cop husband of one of my co-workers wanted to go, but she vetoed it, and he is a regular nice guy - not a sociopath or something.

From the description on CNN, the blackwater people were attacked while driving, and fought back. I don't know what the big deal is, honestly.
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post #27 of 228
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I don't know what the big deal is, honestly.

Exactly, they were only Iraqis after all...granted they were unarmed civilians but they can't have much of a life expectancy anyway can they?

Blackwater probably did them a favour...
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post #28 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Exactly, they were only Iraqis after all...granted they were unarmed civilians but they can't have much of a life expectancy anyway can they?

Blackwater probably did them a favour...

What would you do if you were driving through Iraq, and somebody bombed your convoy and started shooting AK-47s at you in a massive firefight? I doubt that they purposely killed any unarmed civilians.
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post #29 of 228
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

What would you do if you were driving through Iraq, and somebody bombed your convoy and started shooting AK-47s at you in a massive firefight?.

Umm....don't tell me,...I got it, is the answer "start blasting away at un-armed civilians"?
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post #30 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Umm....don't tell me,...I got it, is the answer "start blasting away at un-armed civilians"?

I don't think that happened, at least based on everything that I have seen about the incident.
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post #31 of 228
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I don't think that happened, at least based on everything that I have seen about the incident.

Well, 'based on everything you have read' is a fish of a different colour...
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post #32 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Well, 'based on everything you have read' is a fish of a different colour...

Well, point me to something that backs up your point. At this point you are just an old lady gossiping in the market.
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post #33 of 228
What do you folks want? These guys are operating in a war zone. They are not park police at Yosemite. They are paid to protect their clients from heavily armed forces.
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post #34 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Well, point me to something that backs up your point. At this point you are just an old lady gossiping in the market.


They even have air support. Hell, they even want to expand that air force. This "company" is growing by leaps and bounds. And their CEO is a nut-job end-timer.
post #35 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

They even have air support. Hell, they even want to expand that air force. This "company" is growing by leaps and bounds. And their CEO is a nut-job end-timer.

Exactly how is that evidence that they deliberately opened fire on unarmed civilians? Argentina has an even bigger army, they must have done it!

Seriously, I think that you and Segovious have some kind of logic problems here. There is no way that any of the evidence that you are giving supports your arguments at all, it is kind of like somebody arguing "Cheese is tasty, so the cheese makers must be Blue!".
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post #36 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Exactly how is that evidence that they deliberately opened fire on unarmed civilians? Argentina has an even bigger army, they must have done it!

Seriously, I think that you and Segovious have some kind of logic problems here. There is no way that any of the evidence that you are giving supports your arguments at all, it is kind of like somebody arguing "Cheese is tasty, so the cheese makers must be Blue!".

'Fair probe' vow on Iraq gunfight

Quote:
The convoy carrying officials from the US State Department came under attack at about 1230 local time on Sunday as it passed through Nisoor Square in the predominantly Sunni neighbourhood of Mansour.

The Blackwater security guards "opened fire randomly at citizens" after mortars landed near their vehicles, killing eight people and wounding 13 others, interior ministry officials said.

I'm done with this thread for now, until e1618978 and southside grabowski can cite links to support their undying loyalty to these mercenaries.
post #37 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

And their CEO is a nut-job end-timer.

And Special Forces Veteran.

That article is RICH- "the SS of Christian Fascism" - stop before I squirt this latte out of my nose...
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post #38 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

What would you do if you were driving through Iraq, and somebody bombed your convoy and started shooting AK-47s at you in a massive firefight? I doubt that they purposely killed any unarmed civilians.

well the smartest thing to do would not be there in the first place.

Tell me, when China invades the USA, because they are the new superpower with weapons so advanced your military is completely powerless, are the US citizens just going to carry on with their happy little lives and accept their new overlords?

Thinking about it, the answer is probably yes.
post #39 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

And Special Forces Veteran.

That article is RICH- "the SS of Christian Fascism" - stop before I squirt this latte out of my nose...

Once upon a time, there was a Prince...
post #40 of 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

What would you do if you were driving through Iraq, and somebody bombed your convoy and started shooting AK-47s at you in a massive firefight? I doubt that they purposely killed any unarmed civilians.

Funny you should mention that. This video was recorded by a KBR truck driver in a convoy of four trucks in 2005, escorted by U.S. troops (KBR provided no security at that time). When they are attacked, the troops do nothing and bail, abandoning him and others to fend for themselves.

More on this ambush.

Quote:
As the military fails to offer aid, he angrily screams into the radio for help: "I'm fixing to get killed, God dammit! I cannot move! Truck Five cannot move! Copy? I am getting shot! Someone get their ass back here now, please!"

Other drivers in the crippled convoy can be heard on the radio imploring the military for help and screaming "Gun truck! Gun truck! Gun truck!" But the gun truck fails to arrive.

"Sir, I have no gun back here and ... I am by myself," Wheeler, hoping the military will hear his plea, reports into the radio. (KBR employees are forbidden to carry weapons.)

Three KBR truck drivers were killed that day. They are Keven Dagit, 42 (in truck 3), of Jefferson, Iowa; Christopher Lem, 40, (in truck 1) of Lyndon Station, Wisconsin; and Sascha Grenner-Case (in truck 4) of Sierra Vista, Arizona. Wheeler, who lives in Arkansas, was shot and barely survived. Two other drivers, including Terry Steward (in truck 2) of Idaho, were also injured.

Expect this to be par for the course since Blackwater will be out of the picture now.

This suspension has come at an "awkward time" and may undermine withdraw of U.S. troops. I'll say it again, the troops now have to provide security now that Blackwater is out of the picture.

You don't need a crystal ball that this occupation is (and always has been) fucked up.
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