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Iraq: Blackwater Massacre - Page 5

post #161 of 228
10/5/07 at 10:45am
You really want to make the Republican's heads explode....make them chose whom to support: Blackwater or the Military...

It was obviously excessive, it was obviously wrong, said the U.S. military official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the incident remains the subject of several investigations. The civilians that were fired upon, they didnt have any weapons to fire back at them. And none of the IP (Iraqi Police) or any of the local security forces fired back at them.
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post #162 of 228
10/5/07 at 10:46am
It's obvious to 70% of Americans that Republicans cannot govern. Period. They really need to go back to doing what they do best...attacking liberals.
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post #163 of 228
10/5/07 at 11:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

<lurking >

And not coming back to this thread, right?
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post #164 of 228
10/5/07 at 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

And not coming back to this thread, right?

Does it matter?

Northgate... the choice over who to support is simple to conservative types... our knee-jerk response is to support/give the benefit of the doubt to the US Military until we have an absolute reason not to. Something that the Reid/Pelosi/Kerry/Murtha cabal could learn a little from, or at least experiment with on a drunken Friday night at the Capitol Brewing Company.
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post #165 of 228
10/5/07 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Does it matter?

Northgate... the choice over who to support is simple to conservative types... our knee-jerk response is to support/give the benefit of the doubt to the US Military until we have an absolute reason not to. Something that the Reid/Pelosi/Kerry/Murtha cabal could learn a little from, or at least experiment with on a drunken Friday night at the Capitol Brewing Company.

By the way, firms like Blackwater were outlawed in the United States in the 1800's. And that law is still on the books...

Black Is the New Pink

Quote:
At the end of the 19th Century, in the blood-red aftermath of the Homestead Strike, Congress passed a law that came to be known as the Anti-Pinkerton Act. That name probably wasnt a stretch, since the text of the law specifically prohibits the Federal Government from contracting with the Pinkerton National Detective Agency or a similar organization offering mercenary or quasi-military forces for hire.

Yup. I know what youre thinking.

Alas, because of a series of GAO findings and court rulings, things are not as cut on the bias as it would seem (seam?). Though I feel like common sense would dictate finding the Bush Administration, the State Department, the Pentagon, et al. guilty of violating the Anti-Pinkerton Act (though not all in the same way), the fact is that a variety of judges and comptrollers general have hemmed in this law to the point where two over-long nights of reading on my part have left me pretty sure that a) youll get nowhere with the current executive branch challenging the use of private security contractors under Pinkerton, b) if youre lucky enough to have the standing to get to a finding of fact in the courts, its going to take a judge with a big-picture view and a lot of time on his/her hands to make the APA a ready-to-wear tool in stopping the Bush Administrations extensive use of mercenary or quasi-military forces, and c) we really need a new-look Anti-Pinkerton-style law to cut through all this crap.

Pinkertons guarding railroad payroll; Blackwater guarding oil pipelines. It's still about money and power, which has dominated history for quite some time now.

I love the smell of history repeating itself in the morning...
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post #166 of 228
10/5/07 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

It's obvious to 70% of Americans that Republicans cannot govern. Period. They really need to go back to doing what they do best...attacking liberals.

*news flash* The party that holds the majority is the one that governs. That's the Democrats, and their own base is not altogether thrilled with their half-hearted attempt at change. IF they were serious about Iraq, they could be doing a lot more. They are not, and probably won't. Even their Prez candidates refused to promise an end to Iraq.

I'd say that, based on the polls, that neither Rs nor Ds are all that happy with what Congress is doing. The Dems have not been able to govern as promised... we're still in Iraq. The Republicans are floundering aimlessly as well, having also pissed off their base with spending and immigration bills.

I love gridlock. I love nothing getting done in government. The more gridlock there is, the less damage these power whores in DC can do to the country.
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post #167 of 228
10/5/07 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

It's still about money and power, which has dominated history for quite some time now.:

You are correct. About 4000 years, nearest I can figger.
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post #168 of 228
10/5/07 at 3:54pm
Newsflash: looks like fewer and fewer people are choosing to continue supporting Blackwater:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071005/...e98gmdhrOs0NUE

Rice even wants cameras installed on BW vehicles, which translates: she doesn't trust them at all.

 

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post #169 of 228
10/5/07 at 4:40pm
So check this out. It doesn't really matter if you're a Republican or a Democrat to be infuriated by this:

National Guard Troops Denied Benefits After Longest Deployment of the War

When they came home from Iraq, 2,600 members of the Minnesota National Guard had been deployed longer than any other ground combat unit. The tour lasted 22 months and had been extended as part of President Bush's surge.

1st Lt. Jon Anderson said he never expected to come home to this: A government refusing to pay education benefits he says he should have earned under the GI bill.

"It's pretty much a slap in the face," Anderson said. "I think it was a scheme to save money, personally. I think it was a leadership failure by the senior Washington leadership... once again failing the soldiers."

Anderson's orders, and the orders of 1,161 other Minnesota guard members, were written for 729 days.

Had they been written for 730 days, just one day more, the soldiers would receive those benefits to pay for school.

"Which would be allowing the soldiers an extra $500 to $800 a month," Anderson said.


Yet, somehow, we can afford to pay Blackwater guys $1222 a day. Where are our priorities for Christ's sake!
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post #170 of 228
10/5/07 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Had they been written for 730 days, just one day more, the soldiers would receive those benefits to pay for school.

Yep... one on my colleagues, Nat'l Guard, just back from Afghanistan had this exact thing happen to him. Cut loose two days short of a bump in pay and benefits. From what I have heard this is not all that uncommon. This same individual did not take a single day of leave for 11 months... and the DoD came within one phone call of NOT paying him for comp time.

It's fucking outrageous. I blame the entire federal government, all branches, and both parties... this simply is not the way that we should let things go with our soldiers. Everyone- from the White House, to the VA, to the DoD and the Appropriations/Defense committee members.
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post #171 of 228
10/5/07 at 4:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Rice even wants cameras installed on BW vehicles, which translates: she doesn't trust them at all.

That sounds like a good first step. If it is good enough for our law enforcement, it should be good enough for people with ROE that include killing people.

While we are at it, let's just give them tasers to terrorize the population just for kicks.
It might work over there, too.
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post #172 of 228
10/5/07 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

It's obvious to 70% of Americans that Republicans cannot govern. Period. They really need to go back to doing what they do best...attacking liberals.

It's obvious to me that neither party can govern at this point. Yeah, we're fucked. Have a nice day.
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post #173 of 228
10/5/07 at 6:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Anderson's orders, and the orders of 1,161 other Minnesota guard members, were written for 729 days.

Had they been written for 730 days, just one day more, the soldiers would receive those benefits to pay for school.

"Which would be allowing the soldiers an extra $500 to $800 a month," Anderson said.

Yet, somehow, we can afford to pay Blackwater guys $1222 a day. Where are our priorities for Christ's sake!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Cut loose two days short of a bump in pay and benefits. From what I have heard this is not all that uncommon. This same individual did not take a single day of leave for 11 months... and the DoD came within one phone call of NOT paying him for comp time.

And screener wonders why some of us would rather get out of the Army and work as a contractor than re-enlist!
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post #174 of 228
10/6/07 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsLan^ View Post

And screener wonders why some of us would rather get out of the Army and work as a contractor than re-enlist!

What a sad state of affairs this Admin has caused.

Serving with honor goes by the wayside because you don't trust that you'll get treated properly after service.

Joining a private army is considered a better career choice.

An Admin that creates the illusion that any call for ending this sad episode in Iraq means you don't support the troops, yet creating more terrorists is good for the troops.

A State Department that aids a private contractor to cover up a killing to allow a nut job back into Iraq to work for a different contractor.

How far The US has come from the sympathy of 911 to the derision many feel for America now.
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post #175 of 228
10/6/07 at 1:43pm
I don't disagree with you. Now, if only you weren't Canadian, then you could make a difference!
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post #176 of 228
10/6/07 at 1:56pm
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #177 of 228
10/7/07 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsLan^ View Post

I don't disagree with you. Now, if only you weren't Canadian, then you could make a difference!

By pointing out how others see their point of view can't hurt and maybe take another look at why they think like they do.

Works both ways as well.
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post #178 of 228
10/7/07 at 7:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

What a sad state of affairs this Admin has caused.

Serving with honor goes by the wayside because you don't trust that you'll get treated properly after service.

Joining a private army is considered a better career choice.

I find it interesting that you cannot seem to see that the Admin has not "caused" the system by which all these ills are created. These same things have been happening for MANY years. Did you deride Clinton/Reagan/Carter/anyone but Bush for decades-long problems? Do you see the Democrat party as having anything to do with the disdain for the military? 1968 Chicago, anyone?

Treated properly? Ask a Vietnam vet about that. Ask Jane Fonda and Abbie Hoffman about that.
Joining a PMC has been happening since, I dunno, Rome. For mostly the same reasons as today.

But hey, it's that idiot Bush's fault. Cool. He's a Fucking American.
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post #179 of 228
10/7/07 at 7:25pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhRRWwH3Fro
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post #180 of 228
10/7/07 at 7:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

I find it interesting that you cannot seem to see that the Admin has not "caused" the system by which all these ills are created. These same things have been happening for MANY years. Did you deride Clinton/Reagan/Carter/anyone but Bush for decades-long problems? Do you see the Democrat party as having anything to do with the disdain for the military? 1968 Chicago, anyone?

Treated properly? Ask a Vietnam vet about that. Ask Jane Fonda and Abbie Hoffman about that.
Joining a PMC has been happening since, I dunno, Rome. For mostly the same reasons as today.

But hey, it's that idiot Bush's fault. Cool. He's a Fucking American.

This thread is about Blackwater, if you bothered to read the links in the Myanamar thread or even answering them in this thread, you would see that privatizing the military has been a priority for the "NeoCons" for a long time.

The "NeoCons" including this Administration has raised it to a new level.

Let's see if Bush and his minions allows accountability to be passed.
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post #181 of 228
10/8/07 at 12:01am
Thread Starter 
Seems now that Iraq is claiming many more people were killed and confirming Blackwater did not come under fire.
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post #182 of 228
10/8/07 at 10:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

I find it interesting that you cannot seem to see that the Admin has not "caused" the system by which all these ills are created. These same things have been happening for MANY years. Did you deride Clinton/Reagan/Carter/anyone but Bush for decades-long problems? Do you see the Democrat party as having anything to do with the disdain for the military? 1968 Chicago, anyone?

Excuse me but Bush has been in power for long enough that chickenshit things like this shouldn't be happening on his watch. The REPUBLICAN watch. Our watch...although folks like you seemed to have jettisoned the party rather than own up to our cluster.

Perhaps I meant Chickenhawk over chickenshit. All of those guys you admire so much pretty much bailed on serving their country.

Quote:
Treated properly? Ask a Vietnam vet about that. Ask Jane Fonda and Abbie Hoffman about that.

Which is why its okay to shaft this generation of soldiers? Because its being done by good ol' boys rather than hippies?

Quote:
Joining a PMC has been happening since, I dunno, Rome. For mostly the same reasons as today.

But hey, it's that idiot Bush's fault. Cool. He's a Fucking American.

Yes, it IS that idiot Bush's fault. Yours too if you voted for him. Hell, I voted for Bob Dole and didn't vote for dubya. The guy was a lightweight going in and a real moron in hindsight.

"Oh, they aren't real conservatives..." No shit. Anyone with an IQ above room temp knew that in 2000.

Vinea
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post #183 of 228
10/8/07 at 4:39pm
Iraq Govt: Sever All Blackwater Contracts within six months and pay $8 million in compensation to each of the families of 17 people killed

Iraqi Authorities Seek Blackwater Ouster

Quote:
Iraqi authorities want the U.S. government to sever all contracts in Iraq with Blackwater USA within six months. They also want the firm to pay $8 million in compensation to families of each of the 17 people killed when its guards sprayed a traffic circle with heavy machine gun fire last month.

The demands _ part of an Iraqi government report examined by The Associated Press _ also called on U.S. authorities to hand over the Blackwater security agents involved in the Sept. 16 shootings to face possible trial in Iraqi courts.

The tone of the Iraqi report appears to signal further strains between the government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and the White House over the deaths in Nisoor Square _ which have prompted a series of U.S. and Iraqi probes and raised questions over the use of private security contractors to guard U.S. diplomats and other officials.

I guess we'll find out if the White House really views Iraq as a sovereign nation now.
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post #184 of 228
10/8/07 at 5:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Iraq Govt: Sever All Blackwater Contracts within six months and pay $8 million in compensation to each of the families of 17 people killed

Iraqi Authorities Seek Blackwater Ouster



I guess we'll find out if the White House really views Iraq as a sovereign nation now.

According to the article on CNN the Iraqi Government inquiry determined the killings to be "premeditated murders", and "fired indiscriminately and without provocation on citizens and violating the rights of Iraqis..."

Was this anything other than an act of terrorism? Perhaps SDW and co could manufacture a nice Bush Admin-style euphemism... here we have the Pentagon actively sponsoring international terrorism in a war that is billed as being against such....

Doublespeak rules....
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post #185 of 228
10/9/07 at 7:25am
Thread Starter 
This just coming in:

Two more Iraqis killed today by private security firm.

Quote:
Witnesses to Tuesday's incident in the Karada area of Baghdad said the security guards signalled to a woman driving a car to pull over as they passed.

When she did not, they opened fire, killing her and a passenger.

Witnesses say the guards were part of the escort for a civilian convoy.

No news yet as to whether this is Blackwater striking again but it seems likely...

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post #186 of 228
10/9/07 at 7:31am
"When she did not, they opened fire, killing her and a passenger."
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post #187 of 228
10/9/07 at 7:42am
Thread Starter 
.



..............
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #188 of 228
10/9/07 at 7:53am
I survived Blackwater

Quote:
A former U.S. official received the security company's services and witnessed its disregard for Iraqi lives.

One particularly infuriating time, I was in the town of Irbil in northern Iraq, being driven to a meeting with a Kurdish political leader. We were on a narrow stretch of highway with no shoulders and foot-high barriers on both sides. The lead Suburban in our convoy loomed up behind an old, puttering sedan driven by an older man with a young woman and three children.

As we approached at typical breakneck speed, the Blackwater driver honked furiously and motioned to the side, as if they should pull over. The kids in the back seat looked back in horror, mouths agape at the sight of the heavily armored Suburbans driven by large, armed men in dark sunglasses. The poor Iraqi driver frantically searched for a means of escape, but there was none. So the lead Blackwater vehicle smashed heedlessly into the car, pushing it into the barrier. We zoomed by too quickly to notice if anyone was hurt.

Until that point I had never mentioned anything to my drivers about their tactics, but this time I could not contain myself.

"Where do you all expect them to go?" I shrieked. "It was an old guy and a family, for goodness' sake. Was it necessary for them to destroy their poor old car?"

My driver responded impassively: "Ma'am, we've been trained to view anyone as a potential threat. You don't know who they might use as decoys or what the risks are. Terrorists could be disguised as anyone."

"Well, if they weren't terrorists before, they certainly are now!" I retorted. Sulking in my seat, I was stunned by the driver's indifference.

\
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post #189 of 228
10/9/07 at 10:30am
Thread Starter 
Seems Blackwater is actually owned by a family of right-wing Xian fundie nutjobs.

Should have guessed really.....
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post #190 of 228
10/9/07 at 11:30am
Seems to latest victims were Christians.
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post #191 of 228
10/9/07 at 11:33am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski View Post

Seems to latest victims were Christians.

Maybe Blackwater don't know there are Christians in Iraq or it is the old Church maxim of 'kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out'.

Or maybe they don't count as Christians - certainly they are not Christians in any way the owner of Blackwater would recognize. And vice versa.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #192 of 228
10/9/07 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski View Post

Seems to latest victims were Christians.


2 Iraqi women killed by convoy guards

Quote:
BAGHDAD - Guards in a security convoy opened fire on a car at an intersection in central Baghdad on Tuesday, killing two Iraqi Christian women then speeding away, police said. The Iraqi government said preliminary reports indicated a Western security company was behind the shooting.
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Across Iraq, violence claimed the lives of at least 44 people, including 19 who died in coordinated suicide car bombings in the north that targeted a local police chief and a Sunni sheik.

Neither witnesses nor police could immediately say which organization was involved in the Baghdad shooting, but the four-vehicle convoys of armored SUVS are commonly employed by private security companies and the Iraqi Interior Ministry.

Government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh said the convoy did not appear to be one from Blackwater USA, which has denied any involvement.

He initially said "preliminary reports indicate that an American security company has opened fire on two women and they were killed," but he later amended the claim to say the shooters were employees of a "Western" firm.

"But I don't think it's Blackwater. There are many security companies working in Iraq and some of them are not even registered," he told The Associated Press.

We have to remember that Blackwater weren't the only well-paid yahoos in Iraq.
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post #193 of 228
10/9/07 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Maybe Blackwater don't know there are Christians in Iraq or it is the old Church maxim of 'kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out'.

Or maybe they don't count as Christians - certainly they are not Christians in any way the owner of Blackwater would recognize. And vice versa.

As much as if may disappoint you Sego, there is no inquisition. There is an ugly war, much of which is being fought in urban areas. No one knows who to trust so those with triggers are quick to use them. Likewise, unarmed civilians dont trust anyone who tells them stop. They dont stop and they often get shot. Im not making excuses. Just observing.
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post #194 of 228
10/9/07 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by southside grabowski View Post

Im not making excuses. Just observing.

Far, far away.

Like all of us.

Of course this administration thought we'd be out of Iraq in a few months and had not worried, much less was aware that a guerrilla war would occur. This is why we leave the excuses for still being there to them.
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post #195 of 228
10/10/07 at 3:30pm
Bye, bye, Blackwater


The State Dept. will (may) phase out use of Blackwater... These are people who know these operatives first hand and have seen their tactics in practice and they are choosing to let them go.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071010/...u2ZbKZcTms0NUE

Good riddance.

The Australians killed 2 women the other day... an Iraqi army officer was on Japanese news asking why they had not shot the tires instead of aiming for the heads? Created two orphans.

These mercs are out of hand, no matter how you look at it.

 

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post #196 of 228
10/10/07 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Maybe Blackwater don't know there are Christians in Iraq or it is the old Church maxim of 'kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out'.

Or maybe they don't count as Christians - certainly they are not Christians in any way the owner of Blackwater would recognize. And vice versa.

Duh... real "Christians" are white. \
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post #197 of 228
10/11/07 at 2:21pm
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post #198 of 228
10/11/07 at 2:51pm
Getting your children killed in the crossfire for payment has been done in Afghanistan because we write the checks.
$2000 goes a long way, and the children are martyrs.

Still, we do more than any modern army in the world to prevent civilian casualties.

And yes, civilian casualties are awful, should be avoided if possible, and should be compensated.
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post #199 of 228
10/12/07 at 9:48am
This is utterly unbelievable...

Quote:
The colonel was furious. "Can you believe it? They actually drew their weapons on U.S. soldiers." He was describing a 2006 car accident, in which an SUV full of Blackwater operatives had crashed into a U.S. Army Humvee on a street in Baghdad's Green Zone. The colonel, who was involved in a follow-up investigation and spoke on the condition he not be named, said the Blackwater guards disarmed the U.S. Army soldiers and made them lie on the ground at gunpoint until they could disentangle the SUV. His account was confirmed by the head of another private security company.
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post #200 of 228
10/12/07 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

This is utterly unbelievable...

No, it's f______ unbelievable.
Is this permissible?

Just heard on that sensationalistic MSM, CNN channel, The US military's investigation found no evidence that Blackwater was fired upon.
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