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Iraq: Blackwater Massacre - Page 6

post #201 of 228
10/12/07 at 10:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Getting your children killed in the crossfire for payment has been done in Afghanistan because we write the checks.
$2000 goes a long way, and the children are martyrs.

Still, we do more than any modern army in the world to prevent civilian casualties.

And yes, civilian casualties are awful, should be avoided if possible, and should be compensated.

Start writing more checks...
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post #202 of 228
10/12/07 at 2:19pm
Clearly, The Surge Is Working. It seems obvious that pretty soon now, probably in six months or so, the situation will have stabilized enough for the Iraqi government to make Real Progress towards Political Solutions to the violence, allowing them to Step Up So That We Can Step Down.

And, if six months from now we haven't seen Real Progress, well, we'll Know More six months after that, at which point it will be The Democrats Fault.

Mission Accomplished!
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post #203 of 228
10/12/07 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Mission Accomplished!

Talk to me again in six months, at which time we'll will set a time to explore the timetable, possibly within six months. And once the timetable is finalized, sometime within the following six months after that, we'll have our plan to Congress within six months.

I hereby christen the term SixMonths to describe ANY government situation where the "wait and see" reflex overcomes the calculator tape and poll numbers.
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post #204 of 228
10/12/07 at 3:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Talk to me again in six months, at which time we'll will set a time to explore the timetable, possibly within six months. And once the timetable is finalized, sometime within the following six months after that, we'll have our plan to Congress within six months.

I hereby christen the term SixMonths to describe ANY government situation where the "wait and see" reflex overcomes the calculator tape and poll numbers.

Actually, those are called FU's, or Friedman Units as we like to call them.
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post #205 of 228
10/12/07 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Getting your children killed in the crossfire for payment has been done in Afghanistan because we write the checks.
$2000 goes a long way, and the children are martyrs.

Still, we do more than any modern army in the world to prevent civilian casualties.

I very much doubt that.

For a very close example, the Brits invested much more in developing Arabic skills for the troops than that US did, in order to be less reliant on interpreters and to be able to build trust with the locals. This has the primary effect of cutting down communication error and the easily avoidable conflict that results from it, but also affects the mindset on both sides. People don't generally grow to care very much about people they can't communicate with.

Many of the armies that would hold low civilian casualties as a higher priority than the US does do not get sent to war that often.

If you want to fight a war in the midst of a civilian populace while saving that populace, that means practically no air strikes or indirect fire. You have to go in and handle business manually. That means taking some casualties - it's unavoidable in close combat even if you have superior training, equipment and control. When you look at the causes of death of US personnel, it's IED, accident, IED, IED, accident, etc. It's very obvious that when US commanders expect a real fight instead of random house-clearing, they err on the side of leveling the place to take minimal casualties. Nothing wrong with that as such, it's a valid strategy, but that isn't how you protect civilians. You can't both have your cake and eat it.
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post #206 of 228
10/12/07 at 3:43pm
I was referring to the fact that US taxpayers now buy neat, shiny laser-guided bombs to help avoid civilian casualties, and to help in the shortening of conflicts. We do a lot that we really don't have to in furtherance of minimizing civilian death and injury. Compared to how our enemies operate (with little value for innocents) I'd say we are doing quite well by comparison. It would be much cheaper to go after targets Dresden-style... but we don't do that- we use very expensive technologies to minimize civilian losses.

... and yes, the best way for people to not get killed in wars is not to go to war in the first place.
Until the global totalitarian army is in place, there will be war. No way around it. Just like Einstein said.
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post #207 of 228
10/12/07 at 3:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Actually, those are called FU's, or Friedman Units as we like to call them.

But SixMonths™ sounds much more Orwellian... like MiniPax and MiniPlenty

Ahhhhh, Friedman, my favourite caddy - "You want 1950? We can do 1950. You want 1389? We can do 1389 too."
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post #208 of 228
10/12/07 at 3:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

I was referring to the fact that US taxpayers now buy neat, shiny laser-guided bombs to help avoid civilian casualties, and to help in the shortening of conflicts. We do a lot that we really don't have to in furtherance of minimizing civilian death and injury. Compared to how our enemies operate (with little value for innocents) I'd say we are doing quite well by comparison. It would be much cheaper to go after targets Dresden-style... but we don't do that- we use very expensive technologies to minimize civilian losses.

... and yes, the best way for people to not get killed in wars is not to go to war in the first place.
Until the global totalitarian army is in place, there will be war. No way around it. Just like Einstein said.



How about them very expensive shiny munitions:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071012/...q_071009212989

Civilians killed; guess as long as we get some bad guys, too, then it's all OK. Blackwater is going to share the hotwater with the US military soon.

Shortened conflict? How long has the US been in Iraq? Remind me, when did we see that banner that read, "Mission Accomplished"?

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #209 of 228
10/12/07 at 4:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

How about them very expensive shiny munitions:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071012/...q_071009212989

Civilians killed; guess as long as we get some bad guys, too, then it's all OK. Blackwater is going to share the hotwater with the US military soon.

Shortened conflict? How long has the US been in Iraq? Remind me, when did we see that banner that read, "Mission Accomplished"?

Conflicts will be shorter because a conventional opponents' military abilities will be decimated MUCH quicker with precision weaponry. You are mixing the formal Iraqi army war with the guerilla insurgency. They are two different animals. We're still MUCH more conservative than Serbs, Israelis, etc when it comes to urban combat.

Flex that big noodle of yours- weapons kill people and break things, and yes, even shiny things will cause unintended effects. But much much less than, say, carpet bombing a neighborhood to get at one house.

Mission Accomplished - *yawn* - talking point #41. Mission- removal of Saddam and subduing the Iraqi army. Mission Accomplished. You've bought the recycled version, apparently.
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post #210 of 228
10/12/07 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Mission Accomplished - *yawn* - talking point #41. Mission- removal of Saddam and subduing the Iraqi army. Mission Accomplished. You've bought the recycled version, apparently.

We didn't "subdue the Iraqi army" we tossed them on their ass.

Quote:
The Coalition Provisional Authority issued CPA Order No. 2, it disbanding the Iraqi army in favor of building a completely new force. The action takes many coalition troops by surprise. They had to scratch plans they had for reconstruction that involved getting help from an Iraqi military.

...

"The problem with Order No. 2 was it did absolutely nothing to deal with all of these Iraqi young men who had suddenly been thrown out not only of the military, but Iraq's military- and security-related industries, which were some of the few industries which had been fully funded by Saddam Hussein."
Anthony Cordesman, Center for Strategic and International Studies

These soldiers returned as the insurgency we fight now. They split and grew into sectarian hydra, therefore building in size as more young men followed suit. Mission [not] Accomplished.
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post #211 of 228
10/13/07 at 5:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

We're still MUCH more conservative than Serbs, Israelis, etc when it comes to urban combat.

Still much more conservative than two varieties of ethnic cleansers? I sure hope so. I wouldn't have compared US Army to those two to be honest.
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post #212 of 228
10/13/07 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

Still much more conservative than two varieties of ethnic cleansers? I sure hope so. I wouldn't have compared US Army to those two to be honest.

I agree... but earlier posted about "modern armies," that's all.
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post #213 of 228
10/13/07 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Just heard on that sensationalistic MSM, CNN channel, The US military's investigation found no evidence that Blackwater was fired upon.

More on this,
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/13/wo...lackwater.html
Quote:
BAGHDAD, Oct. 12 Fresh accounts of the Blackwater shooting last month, given by three rooftop witnesses and by American soldiers who arrived shortly after the gunfire ended, cast new doubt Friday on statements by Blackwater guards that they were responding to armed insurgents when Iraqi investigators say 17 Iraqis were killed at a Baghdad intersection.

The three witnesses, Kurds on a rooftop overlooking the scene, said they had observed no gunfire that could have provoked the shooting by Blackwater guards. American soldiers who arrived minutes later found shell casings from guns used normally by American contractors, as well as by the American military.

The Kurdish witnesses are important because they had the advantage of an unobstructed view and because, collectively, they observed the shooting at Nisour Square from start to finish, free from the terror and confusion that might have clouded accounts of witnesses at street level. Moreover, because they are pro-American, their accounts have a credibility not always extended to Iraqi Arabs, who have been more hostile to the American presence.

Could the State Department be covering up again?
Quote:
Their statements, made in interviews with The New York Times, appeared to challenge a State Department account that a Blackwater vehicle had been disabled in the shooting and had to be towed away. Since those initial accounts, Blackwater and the State Department have consistently refused to comment on the substance of the case.

The Kurdish witnesses said that they saw no one firing at the guards at any time during the event, an observation corroborated by the forensic evidence of the shell casings. Two of the witnesses also said all the Blackwater vehicles involved in the shooting drove away under their own power.

Even worse,
Quote:
Finally there was a pause of a few seconds in the shooting as the Blackwater convoy prepared to leave, he said. Then, Mr. Waso said with a look of disbelief on his face, at least one Blackwater guard began firing again, this time at a red bus full of people on the western rim of the square.

The glass was all broken, Mr. Waso said, struggling to describe the bus after the firing resumed. Women and children, all of them were shouting and crying.

Some of the people who survived in the bus were tended to later at the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan building, he said.

After that last burst of gunfire in the square, Mr. Waso said, all four of the Blackwater vehicles left. As far as he could see, they drove away under their own power, he said.
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post #214 of 228
10/13/07 at 6:27pm
The corporate media's crying its crocodile tears now... See token piece here:
And the FBI questioning Blackwater people in Iraq about it? Thats like the Mafia investigating the Genovese family. The FBI are on the same side as Blackwater ffs! Can't we ever get a real investigation of anything these days? I guess not.
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post #215 of 228
10/14/07 at 12:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

I agree... but earlier posted about "modern armies," that's all.

There's no question that Israel's army is modern. I know Serbs used old gear in their last war because that's what they had, but you don't need to have all new stuff to be effective, or to be modern for that matter.

We'd field a lot of old stuff too if it came to that, but we have a quite modern army nevertheless.
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post #216 of 228
10/16/07 at 3:23am
Thread Starter 
Looks like Blackwater has been rewarded for its behaviour - or rewarded some more: Blackwater training police in American cities and towns.

Oh goody.

Quote:
Blackwater is also planning to establish regional training centers in Potrero, California and Mount Carroll, Illinois, billed as Blackwater West and Blackwater North, respectively.

These training centers, in addition to Blackwater's Lodge and Training Center in Moyock, North Carolina -- Blackwater East -- and a possible fourth rumored to be slated for the Pacific Northwest -- Blackwater Northwest -- may result in the establishment of a network of Blackwater-trained police, sheriffs, and other police units around the country. Given Blackwater's dismal record on human rights and brutality, this spells trouble for civilian control of police and paramilitary forces in the United States, from major metropolitan areas to small rural towns.

Totalitarian regimes always need a Gestapo.

Looks like another giant leap towards fascism for the US and a giant leap backward for everyone else in the civilized world.

Is someone going to actually stop these goons or are the American people just going to take it?

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post #217 of 228
10/16/07 at 5:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Looks like Blackwater has been rewarded for its behaviour - or rewarded some more: Blackwater training police in American cities and towns.

Oh goody.



Totalitarian regimes always need a Gestapo.

Looks like another giant leap towards fascism for the US and a giant leap backward for everyone else in the civilized world.

Is someone going to actually stop these goons or are the American people just going to take it?


Seg, don't give up on US just yet, there is still some of US who have hope for a better America.

Just listened to some CSNY;

Ohio
Deja Vu
Carry On
Long Time Gone

See also Pray for Peace at the National Cathedral tonight.

I will forever hope and dream for a more peaceful human existence.
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post #218 of 228
10/16/07 at 5:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Seg, don't give up on US just yet, there is still some of US who have hope for a better America.

Just listened to some CSNY;

Ohio
Deja Vu
Carry On
Long Time Gone

See also Pray for Peace at the National Cathedral tonight.

I will forever hope and dream for a more peaceful human existence.

I love CSNY
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #219 of 228
10/16/07 at 5:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I love CSNY

Just listened to;

Woodstock and Teach Your Children Well.
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post #220 of 228
10/16/07 at 7:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Is someone going to actually stop these goons or are the American people just going to take it?


How long did we tolerate the School of the Americas again?
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post #221 of 228
10/16/07 at 7:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

How long did we tolerate the School of the Americas again?

... see Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (formerly the School of the Americas) and their current homepage at WHINSEC.
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post #222 of 228
10/16/07 at 7:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

... see Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (formerly the School of the Americas) and their current homepage at WHINSEC.

I guess "tolerate" is not the right word... "were unconcerned with / unaware of" would have been closer to my intent.
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post #223 of 228
10/16/07 at 8:30am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

I guess "tolerate" is not the right word... "were unconcerned with / unaware of" would have been closer to my intent.

Or perhaps "didn't give a flying toss about anyway"....
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post #224 of 228
10/16/07 at 9:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Or perhaps "didn't give a flying toss about anyway"....

I spent a good deal of time in college researching low intensity conflict, liberation theology, and South American revolutions.
The whole School of the Americas thing is disgusting on myriad levels.
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post #225 of 228
10/16/07 at 4:10pm
Iraq to crack down on foreign security guards


· Foreign firms to be liable under Baghdad law
· Minister's pledge follows shootings of civilians


http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...d=networkfront

and about time too IMHO.

Time for Iraq to take control and let's see if the US can actually take it... and swallow Iraqi justice.


This idea that the 'surge' is the reason for the closing down Alqaida in Iraq - I'm sorry you are all misled. Iraqi's have had enough of Alqaida and are dealing with them. Woudl have been done early IMHO just US in the way. Finally of course it is well known alqaida types woudl be no where near Iraq if it wasn't for the invasion in the first place.
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post #226 of 228
10/21/07 at 8:32pm
Quote:
Baghdad: Iraqi Interior Ministry sources have said that American and British security firms have started to leave Iraq.

"We have information from Baghdad airport saying that 90 to 120 individuals working for the private security firm, Blackwater, are leaving Baghdad every day in an American military aircraft, this is in addition to more than 44 personnel from the UK-based Olive Group who left Iraq last week," Colonel Arkan Adnan, an Iraqi officer at the Interior Ministry told Gulf News.

Some Sunni and Shiite armed groups have declared that the forthcoming days will witness vindictive operations against all foreign private security convoys as revenge against the lives of innocent Iraqis who were killed by personnel working for these firms. Four Blackwater personnel were killed in the Sunni-dominated city of Fallujah, east of Baghdad, three years ago.

This is good news. Iraqis are sick of the Americans, in uniform or not. They don't want permanent U.S. Military bases or want to deal with us in their business affairs. This could be the real sense of authority the government needed to show us and the Iraqi people.

We'll see.
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post #227 of 228
11/15/07 at 6:09am
Update.
http://www.reuters.com/article/lates.../idUSN14204301
Quote:
The North Carolina firm is also under scrutiny after several violent incidents involving its contractors, including the shooting of 17 Iraqi civilians in a September incident. The New York Times reported on Wednesday that FBI agents found at least 14 of those shootings were unjustified.

Continuing State Department coverup?
Quote:
WASHINGTON, Nov 14 (Reuters) - The State Department's top investigator recused himself on Wednesday from probes into the Blackwater security firm after discovering -- during a break in a congressional hearing -- that his brother was connected with the company.

Krongard contacted his brother after Democratic lawmakers waved e-mails showing Blackwater had invited him to be on the company's advisory board and attend a meeting in Williamsburg, Virginia, this week.

Several current and former staffers from Krongard's office said he threatened investigators with retaliation if they cooperated with Waxman's probe. Krongard is also accused of telling the staff not to cooperate with the Justice Department, and impeding investigations into alleged arms smuggling by Blackwater and construction problems with a massive new U.S. embassy in Baghdad.
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post #228 of 228
11/15/07 at 6:28am
So when is Krongard going to be brought up for obstruction?

I like how Reuters say Democratic lawmakers 'waved' emails in his face, as if the printed them out and physically waved the pages in his face like a 5 year old does, "Neener neener na-nah!"

They could have made it more dramatic if they said, "Krongard contacted his brother after Democratic lawmakers shoved e-mails in his face showing Blackwater..."

But, I keed, I keed...
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