Iraq: Blackwater Massacre - Page 3

It sounds like your mind is already made up and are unwilling to consider any more evidence.

If blackwater is doing the most killing, I want to know about it and understand why.

If you had one ounce of Murtha's background on the battlefield then I'd let this one pass. But you don't.

Of course his mind is made up. It's from the Times. I mean, they accept ads. With puns in them. And they publish them. In a newspaper.

You're wrong. Go back and read my posts... I want to hear the evidence, see justice done for those that broke the law, and get on with it. My mind is very much made up that way- get the evidence, take the action, and dispose of it. I, too, am ready for a full investigation... to get to the truth, not just the masturbatory headlines. "Shooting rate" needs to be defined further for methods and answers achieved.

But none of that matters. We'll keep it going on forever, with innuendo, rumor, and allegation with nothing getting done. It's not about getting justice... it's about having yet another issue to highlight perceived failures and grounds to further demonize the "crusaders."

There's only one major difference here... I give American forces and the people that my government hires the benefit of the doubt. You don't. That's OK... we all have our reasons.

I want to see wrongdoing exposed and punished, at all levels of the government and its contractors. I've said that since we began here. If the evidence and investigations bear out the allegations, fine, roast 'em. We do have a system to deal with wrongdoing.

There is nothing wrong with a newspaper reporting on which "civilian contractor" is doing the most killing.

You're right to bring up factors that contribute to BlackWater having the highest body count. But it seems that your hate for this story must be based upon a previous transgression on their part. (real or perceived)

Do you know intimately what I have done in service to this country?

Yoosa sticka to whatcha know.. jes?

But we don't have a system for policing the actions of "civilian contractors". That's the whole problem, complete lack of accountability. They fall into nobody's jurisdiction and the administration is advising blackwater officials to not answer any questions. That is why it has fallen to newspapers to report on the body count from our "civilian contractors".

My distaste for this story is that is glosses over intellectual honesty when tossing around terms like "shooting rate." It is interesting, I agree. But there is precious little in the story that relates to the variables involved. If you are going to use "rate" of anything, your methods should be disclosed and at least somewhat sound. They are not in this case. My bitch is that "shooting rate" is meant to leave in impression that BWUSA is thrill-killing their way across Iraq. If I was guarding the PM or political leaders, people that are high-value kills for the insurgency, you bet that my finger is going to find a trigger more than if I was guarding the XOs swimming pool in the new embassy.

I know a number of BWUSA operators, and they are not hoodlums out looking to kill. They are mostly SF veterans and care deeply about what they do. Are there some runaway Rambos somewhere in the organization?- of course there are, just like any organization. We have a system and means of dealing with such people.

Iraq may deal with them yet. If not, I am sure that an American attorney will gladly file a wrongful death suit on behalf of the families of the victims. Congress can investigate and subpoena if they see fit. Though they do not fall under the UCMJ, I'd bet that their contract itself has a method outlined for just this case. The Administration and Army do not like bad PR any more than BWUSA.

Ah, now I see where you're coming from. You have a emotional connection to people in BlackWater.

No matter if someone is family, friend, or stranger, they must be accountable for their actions. In regard to the topic at hand, we don't know what really went on and we likely never will. The only solution is to place blackwater under someone's jurisdiction so that questionable events can be investigated and dealt with properly.

No, I would not call it emotional. But yes, these are PEOPLE to me, just like the Iraqi Kurds that live a couple of blocks from my place in Austin. I have known a number of their operators on a professional basis for a few years now.

I have always agreed with you that regardless of status, people have to be accountable. And yes, I have long thought, and this situation bears it out, that BWUSA and the like should fall under the UCMJ and should be subject, by law, to very tight controls as terms of their employment.

The failure of BWUSA staff is shared with the failure of our government to set terms that prevent this kind of situation.

So we agree? Who would have known?
It was those first couple of hateful and emotional tirades that got me to argue with your posts.

I'll summarize my position with this:

Military firepower with a license to kill is bad without external oversight. I can't believe we allow companies to fly gun-ships around foreign countries and gun people down, all the while purposefully making them accountable to absolutely nobody. The gunned down people may have deserved it. But we will never know with the system set up the way it is now.

I like that. I might sleep better at night knowing that those wielding a pen are more devious and dangerous than those carrying a gun.

Operators implement policy, often with deadly force when necessary. Policy makers send people into war zones. They create the wars, they profit from them, and they set the terms. Politicians have always been more dangerous than armies, in and of themselves. Each chess piece cannot see the totality of the game unfold... the chess master does that.

You-all deserve this, :"Fucking Americans"

Do like I say, demand, not what I do.

Can't you see that the world is watching?

Don't you understand the world view of the USA.?

Are you all like SDW, "Who cares what they think".

Jubelum, you trust Blackwater operatives, people who know nothing but killing, over survivors of said killings?

You would think people trained in the field of warfare would be only to glad to get out of it after service, unless they were bent that way, hence Blackwater employees.

Not all, but the "RUSH" has it's allure.

Cute.


Where to start with this steaming pile... lemmesee...

For one, this has nothing to do with "trust." It has to do with generally hard-working and brave people, in my opinion, who find among themselves, perhaps, people who have gone off the reservation and should be punished by all means available...Mmkay?

And BWUSA staff are trained in a HELL of a lot more than killing. They train in dozens of areas that relate to protecting people that other people are trying to murder. Did you also know that they spend weeks learning Islamic customs and cultural sensitivity before they deploy? You've got your mind made up- don't let the reality of what these people do get in the way. They are baby-killing crusading murderers out looking for innocent people to kill. Just keep on with that.

And to address your final gleaming jewel... Blackwater employs people that are former special forces and general military staff. These folks, a lot of them, have spent at least 6-8 years before Blackwater serving the country and learning a skill set. They have experience and skills that would otherwise be lost to the ongoing effort. I think it is a much better use of all that expensive training and experience to keep those people in the loop, and not have to constantly train new people, hoping we can keep some good ones.

Yes, there are some high-speed types that gravitate toward companies like Blackwater... who should they recruit with, the Campfire Girls? If you want talent in the areas in which BWUSA operates, you go looking for people exiting military service with the skills you need.

Don't like "Fucking Americans" huh?
Don't leave the country then, you'll hear it pretty often.

Hiring mercenaries that operate independently and aren't liable for any misdeeds, does not enhance what little credibility the US has left.


Yeah right, first they have to look at them the wrong way, maybe pick up a shell casing or something. C'mon, that would never happen, oh wait, it did.

Some of the people they hire are,


And if they get themselves killed, the families have no right to find out how,


http://www.allbusiness.com/services/...974554-4347871

A law unto themselves, business as usual.

Fucking Americans.

Wow.. thrice cute. I hope this is making you feel much better.

I'm not sure what to tell you, screener... you have an established, if poorly vocalized, view of BWUSA that you have no doubt received from the usual media and have repeated it in a thoughtless nod to the zeitgeist. If not, how did you form these opinions? Let's face it, the trendy "Halliburton" tag line has been sent packing by the new "it" term... "BlackWater"! I can just imagine Alicia Silverstone proclaiming that "Halliburton is soooo YESTERDAY..."

You should not be surprised that the private sector hires recognized talent from the public sector. This is common globally.

Regarding the famliles, this is a known part of the job. Ask any special forces operator or high-speed contractor. The "Fucking American" government does not reveal what happens to SEALs, Rangers, Force Recon, et al if the subject matter would jeopardize current operations or reveal tactical information. Again, among high-speed operators, this is a term of employment and it is not uncommon to see records sealed for 10-20 years, either by the government or the contractor. Some data from Vietnam is still sealed.

Maybe all the US Military families who have lost family members should sue the government for wrongful death? Sorry, this is a war zone, and everyone there is a volunteer. They know the risks, they agree to the terms, and any military person will tell you how much of their "rights" are personally surrendered to defend those of others. It's part of the reason that a *few* of us take their side unless we have a reason not to, and call them "heroes" not "murderers." Pick your poison.

Would congressional hearings be enough? Fines? Jail time? Executions of Blackwater staff?
You have a laundry list of alleged transgressions, tell us what you'd like to see done.

The group you describe shares precious little with the people I know who actually do the work. I'm not going to change your mind. You're certainly not going to change mine. I stand by my previously posted content, and you can stick to your (in my opinion trendy) opinions.

$15B narcoterrorism war to be outsourced


First of all, who the fuck thought of the name "Counter-Narcoterrorism Technology Program Office"? It sounds like something from a Philip K. Dick novel. Bring on the Agent Freds with their scramble suits...



Let's look at the flow of money...

What they claim is happening:

Drug users -> Pushers -> Drug Cartels -> Terrorists

What's really happening:

Tax payers -> IRS/Govt -> Hired mercenaries -> Private Prisons -> Defense contractors

Either way, money goes from average Joe's into the hands of powerful groups that want to perpetuate the cycle. I would say might as well dope the average Joe's before the leeching begins.

<tinfoil?>Private companies will get involved in distributing drugs too. They go public, then they take the illicit profits from drugs and pass it off as legitimate earnings. Since earnings on paper go up, their stock price goes up. And just when the bubble is about to burst, the founders sell, take their profits, and do it all over again.

It's especially lucrative when the private company gets to be in enforcement, because now they get to enjoy a new supply (they keep what they interdict) and they have a cover for importing back into the states.</tinfoil?>

We've seen this with DynCorp. The Colombians busted these rat fucks running drugs and the State Dept. didn't do squat, their business wasn't even paused, they just kept on trafficking. More reading...

[CENTER]


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Never used to feel this way, and no, it doesn't make be feel good, just sad.
But really, who cares what anyone except an American thinks, right?


They are mercenaries, hired for money, not patriotism.
Not responsible for their actions, thanks to Paul Bremer, allegiance to the company, not the country.
If it walks like a duck,.......


Culled from the Administration that allows them to grow and expand with a majority of the no-bid contracts they enjoy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_USA


Blackwater is suing the families for asking what happened.


Hired guns, heroes, really?


Make them responsible for their actions. Not untouchable.


Trendy?
By not trusting mercenaries? Trendy?
At least it's not as stupid as unpatriotic, yeah, it is.

How many BWUSA staff do you know? You cannot speak with any autority concerning the motives. Again, your blanket indictment should not be subject to change just because of a few stupid facts.


,

This remains to be seen, screener. This case has not been finished. Nor will it be finished for a long time.


Here we go again... more buzz-word rhetoric. Do you understand how at least some things work regarding contractors? Who else has the skill set that Blackwater does? Please, tell me. Who else has the broad range of services that Halliburton does? That any of these evil demonic companies do? You see, there is no one else that has the range of expertise that Halliburton or Blackwater do. If there were 10 companies that did exactly what either of the two aforementioned companies do, I'd be all about a competitive bid process. Bidding protects the value to the taxpayer... in cases where there are a number of possible alternatives. But hey, keep screaming "no bid contracts" as some kind of ranting slur because it reveals how little you know about the situation.


.
I read that... responded to it, and feel that this has already been addressed. They are suing the families for posthumous breach of contract on behalf of their family members. The suits are against the estates, not the families.


If you're going to go there, at least get my argument correct:



Agreed.

Blanket indictment?
Lets just ignore the stupid facts.
How 3D of you.

,
And the killing continues, great.


They got the so called skill because of Bush's polices, hiring those sympathetic, towing the Bush line.
.

That makes it better.
Throw the families out on the streets because they want to know what happened.



Read Artmans post about Blackwater advertising, then tell me who is joining up.


Which is what this thread is all about.

And then there is the question of the arms supplied to the PPK that Turkey is complaining about.

The loss of weapons when Petreus was in charge of training the Iraqis.

Mercenaries have no loyalty but the dollar, low as it is.
Perhaps they will start requesting their pay in Euros.

And you wonder why most around the world say "Fucking Americans" when asked about the War on Terror.

Kinda like the police thread, Fuck the cops, they only look out for themselves.

The triiiii-facta! "Bush" - "no bid" - "mercenaries" Ding Ding Ding!

So called? You're looking kinda foolish here... I assure you, these peoples gots the skills.

Please, tell me what you know and/or understand about their skills and what it really takes to do the job. I'm waiting for you to convince me that you have a concept of what BWUSA actually does, I mean, other than the buzzword accusations that you have come up with.

Any answer to my question about where your beliefs emerge from? Media? Party line? Free floating outrage? Actual knowledge of the reality of... nahhhhh...

Here's some videos...

Blackwater USA's Urban Warfare Training Center

Dunno who, what or where this is but it's goddamn funny. Military Contractor training

Here's another of - oops, wrong guys...

I should have said, expanded their so called skill set aided by no-bid contracts.
Not that they don't know their talents, skills.

In other words, the company got really, really big, really, really fast because of the money the Bush Admin was making available to Blackwater and others.

Who wouldn't want to invest in a company that was guaranteed contracts, close ties with an Administration that created a self perpetuating war in need of said companies services.

The icing on the cake, no responsibility for employees fucking up.

The "buzzword" accusations are documented for those that aren't afraid to view them.
eg., this thread that no one here seemed interested in.
The Great Iraqi Swindle
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=78172

If it walks like a duck, and some research shows it is, then it's a fucking duck.

Do you form your opinions without research, or simply choose to believe what those in your circle believe.

How can you believe unregulated mercenaries are a good thing.
Because you know some?
There's some 3D thinking.

Show me where I have said that. Go ahead.


You don't know the first thing about it... but your post is the sincerest form of flattery.

IN other news... Blackwater may actually fall under UCMJ due to a Republican amendment in last year's defense authorization bill.
... from Democratic Underground.

Slightly O/T - here is a very interesting article on this phenomenon from a rather unlikely source:
http://www.cracked.com/index.php?name=News&sid=2417

They joined a private army for a lot more money than the government pays.

Part of the job would require you to shoot at people and get shot at.

If you had a problem with that, why would you join this army?

If you are truly patriotic, why not re-enlist?

So you don't believe the US Government hiring mercenaries is a good thing?



Sounds like you think hiring mercenaries is a good idea.

I have said more than a few times throughout this post that there need to be TIGHT CONTROLS and that anyone fighting on our side should be subject to military justice. You're, as usual, misrepresenting what has been clearly stated.


Strawman du jour... Neither one of those quotes you posted has anything to do with it being a good idea or not. Both of those quotes deal with your understanding, or lack thereof, of BWUSA. Please, try again.

Pentagon Issues Blackwater New $92 Million Contract


WTF? No wait... "WTF" might have been a good response 6 years ago. Anytime after, say, 2003 the response should be "BAU" (Business As Usual) when someone gets rewarded for getting caught.

But do you think it's a good idea for the US Government to hire mercenaries, period.

By continuing to extoll the virtues of Blackwater leads me to believe you support Blackwater's presence in Iraq.
Even without tight controls.

From your link in regards to UCM,


We'll see, and then see what Blackwater does.

Sources: Blackwater contractor wrote first U.S. report on shooting


\

Because the pay is significantly better than what the government offers. Tax free too

Many infantry soldiers get out of the Army specifically to go work for a PMC, others get out to pursue college, focus on their family or whatever.

But, money talks and the PMCs are paying a whole lot these days. You would be stupid to turn down the practically free money if you were in a position to take on one of these jobs.

Even though I'm completely against the war, I would be over there in a heartbeat if it wasn't for my wife. We're talking salaries of around $250,000 a year (actually only the first $82,000 is tax free, but any travel pay, allowances etc. are also tax free). Again, if you have the background and don't mind applying yourself you would have to be retarded not to go, it's free money!

About re-enlisting... many do, the Army is giving lots of incentives for staying in these days but they don't compare to what the PMCs are offering. People staying in usually do so for other reasons, i.e. they like it, they're doing well, they have a family to feed (and contracting can be unreliable at times).

Also, consider that a lot of these highly skilled mercenaries left the Army during the Clinton era (when the Army wasn't doing too much). If they tried to enlist now and come back into the Army, they'd be "needs of the Army" i.e. they'd get made into water purification specialists, veterinarian assistants, or petroleum supply specialists, regardless of their background (no offence to the soldiers serving in those capacities).

I tend to agree with Jubelum on this one. They need to be held accountable, but just because they work for a PMC doesn't necessarily make them bad people.

In other words, you don't have a problem killing some one for money, in a situation where you might, inadvertently, kill an innocent.

And by saying you are against the war makes your post even more disgusting.

Fucking Americans.

I'm not a murderer dude, and I wouldn't kill innocent people, even inadvertently.

I was just trying to bring some perspective about why people join these companies, basically, it's because the pay is so high.

Cute. Tired, but cute.

Never said you were a murderer, but shit happens when you go to the hell that areas of Iraq have become.
If you believe an innocent wouldn't get killed in a fire-fight, you are truly naive.
You don't get to pick when and where the shooting starts.

I can see a true belief in the war as a reason for going, but just for money?, and not believing in it?

Sorry dude, that's disgusting.