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Apple says it's not intentionally disabling unlocked iPhones

post #1 of 32
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Apple, which on Monday warned customers against using iPhone unlocking tools because they may permanently damage the handsets, has since defended its stance on the matter but said the company is not taking any special measures to intentionally cripple the devices.

"This has nothing to do with proactively disabling a phone that is unlocked or hacked," Phil Schiller, Apple's senior vice president of worldwide product marketing, told the Associated Press in an interview. "It's unfortunate that some of these programs have caused damage to the iPhone software, but Apple cannot be responsible for ... those consequences."

The programs, some of which are available for free, are particularly popular abroad where Apple has yet to begin offering the sleek, touchscreen-based mobile phone. Although the company has tied deals with wireless carriers in the UK, Germany and France, it will not begin selling iPhone in those regions until the second week of November. Official offerings for other countries are not expected until 2008.

In speaking to the AP, Schiller said he was unaware of how many iPhones may be operating on carriers other than U.S.-based AT&T, the only carrier currently qualified to engage in sale and service of the device.

As part of its warning on Monday, Apple said it plans to issue a software update later this week that will add a slew of new iPhone software features, include an application that will let users access the iTunes Wi-Fi Music Store. The company added, however, that user who apply that update to unlocked iPhones may render those phones "completely inoperable."

Those claims, as well as the comments by Schiller, have already been met with intense scrutiny, as most people trained in the art of software development can attest that there is no such thing as "permanent damage to software." Instead they believe Apple's warning is no more than a "scare tactic" and a promise that it will not bear the burden of assuring its future iPhone software revisions work properly on hacked versions of the phone.

"We have reviewed the source code of a number of these applications and to the best of our knowledge any changes made to the software can easily be reversed," John McLaughlin, a developer who has made unsubstantiated claims of developing his own unlocking solution, told the AP. "After unlocking the iPhone, minimal effort is required to get it in to its previously locked state."

Apple also said Monday that customers who hack their iPhones to run on unauthorized wireless carriers are also voiding the handset's warranty.
post #2 of 32
Not intentionally, but also they're not willing to do anything about it, except "threaten" users who installed or considering to install "illegal" software an a device that has been fully paid for.
post #3 of 32
'John McLaughlin, a developer of one iPhone unlocking solution'

haha haha haha haha haha - iphoneunlocking crook - haha haha haha haha haha haha haha haha haha haha ha

This guy is the laughing stock of the iphone community and you quote him !!!!

Your kudos has just hit rock bottom.
post #4 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by suhail View Post

Not intentionally, but also they're not willing to do anything about it, except "threaten" users who installed or considering to install "illegal" software an a device that has been fully paid for.

First, nowhere has Apple said unlocking the phone is illegal. They have said it invalidates its warranty which is very fair. That's what every carrier has told me. It is not illegal to unlock it. Nor is it illegal for Apple to not support these changes.

For anyone who says "there is no such thing as permanent damage to software." they don't know what they are talking about WRT to embedded system, which is what the phone is. You can definitely update a flash in such a way that you can't reflash it again back to it working state, without taking it apart or using specialized equipment, such as you would have as a developer. Try writing over you hard disks boot blocks and the recovering the system without a CD/DVD. The iPhone doesn't have these resources.
post #5 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkbloke View Post

'John McLaughlin, a developer of one iPhone unlocking solution'

haha haha haha haha haha - iphoneunlocking crook - haha haha haha haha haha haha haha haha haha haha ha

This guy is the laughing stock of the iphone community and you quote him !!!!

Your kudos has just hit rock bottom.

Did you notice it was a quote which he made to AP or that we comment that it is an 'unsubstantiated' claim?
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post #6 of 32
This will lead to a divide between people. You will either go with apple and restore your phone to factory conditions, get updates and rely on them for new features. OR you will go with the developers/hackers, rely on them to intoduce new features, and possibly be stuck in a 1.0.2 world (or wait for them to test update after update and say the coast is clear). I have no problem with them going againt people who hack unlocked the phone to be on a different carrier. It is money out of all thier pockets (and ours too as a matter of fact)...and its my opinion they have a right to do what they have to . I dont think they should discourge the developers however. These are the people who make the device what it is and what it will become. Look at all the cool new things you can do with your phone since it was released June 29th. People have hacked Apple products from the beginning of time, Woz was the founder of this principal ....its the way it has been and will always be. They have never had a problem with it before. Whatever the case I think they need to be clear on what they have learned .... apparently they applied the update and something went south, they need to tell us exactly what we can have and what we can't , plain and simple. Can you imagine the bad publicity if thousands , if not tens of thousands of iPhones just got bricked!? I dont care if they issued a statement, warning, whatever you want to call it...the media would be all over that.. They need to stop resisting and work with these developers already to really make this phone what it can be. BTW I wonder how many of these "developers" are actually Apple employees on the down low
post #7 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by suhail View Post

Not intentionally, but also they're not willing to do anything about it, except "threaten" users who installed or considering to install "illegal" software an a device that has been fully paid for.

Apple has long had a policy of "if you break it, you can keep the pieces," and the iPhone is no exception. What so many people fail to realize is that the purchase of an Apple device includes the purchase of the software, and acceptance of the software license agreement. Further, Apple has a commitment to AT&T, and other carriers abroad, to take reasonable measures to enforce their exclusivity agreements.

Basically, Apple's saying this: if you do something to your iPhone that takes your phone out of compliance with your use contract with Apple, or -- worse -- Apple's contract with the carriers, then Apple won't be held responsible for the consequences of these actions, whether intentional or unintentional. They're not threatening people who have unlocked their iPhones; they're merely saying that they're not going to risk a multimillion-dollar lawsuit from AT&T because you decided to use your phone on T-Mobile's network.

This is why Apple's not taking countermeasures against those who have jailbroken their iPhones. Apple's long had a strong hacker following, and quelling that would be worse for Apple in the long run. However, jailbreaking your phone won't get Apple sued by a third party. Using it on another network will.

I think that's fair.
post #8 of 32
Quote:
"We have reviewed the source code of a number of these applications and to the best of our knowledge any changes made to the software can easily be reversed," John McLaughlin, a developer who has made unsubstantiated claims of developing his own unlocking solution, told the AP. "After unlocking the iPhone, minimal effort is required to get it in to its previously locked state."

Another uninformed statement, or at least misleading. The current unlocking solutions depend on the current API for restoring the software and other internal structure to the software. The API for restoring the phone is very likely to change - significantly - based on the iPod Touch firmware, which is not yet breached. What this means is that, if you have NOT restored your state before upgrading, you may never be able to as the current relocking software/instructions are very (very IMO) likely not going to work, and the current unlocked configuration may not work with the new firmware (how could Apple test it with every configuration sprouting up) - hence the result being a bricked phone. I have to agree with Apple, not their problem.
post #9 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by daratbastid View Post

This will lead to a divide between people. You will either go with apple and restore your phone to factory conditions, get updates and rely on them for new features. OR you will go with the developers/hackers, rely on them to intoduce new features, and possibly be stuck in a 1.0.2 world (or wait for them to test update after update and say the coast is clear). I have no problem with them going againt people who hack unlocked the phone to be on a different carrier. It is money out of all thier pockets (and ours too as a matter of fact)...and its my opinion they have a right to do what they have to . I dont think they should discourge the developers however. These are the people who make the device what it is and what it will become. Look at all the cool new things you can do with your phone since it was released June 29th. People have hacked Apple products from the beginning of time, Woz was the founder of this principal ....its the way it has been and will always be. They have never had a problem with it before. Whatever the case I think they need to be clear on what they have learned .... apparently they applied the update and something went south, they need to tell us exactly what we can have and what we can't , plain and simple. Can you imagine the bad publicity if thousands , if not tens of thousands of iPhones just got bricked!? I dont care if they issued a statement, warning, whatever you want to call it...the media would be all over that.. They need to stop resisting and work with these developers already to really make this phone what it can be. BTW I wonder how many of these "developers" are actually Apple employees on the down low

You do realize that this warning is only talking about the SIM unlocking, not the third-party hacks. Now, I don't think the third-party hacks will work immediately after this update, we will see. My pessimism is based on the changes in the iPod touch firmware and the difficulties the hakcers are having on breaching it. There is a possibility that they made the Touch harder to breach so that you couldn't move apps from the iphone to the touch. For my iphone, I hope that's the case.
post #10 of 32
I actually installed Navizon. And to do so I had to "jailbreak" using a software called Installer. I hope this will not brick my iPhone when a new firmware is released.
post #11 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

You do realize that this warning is only talking about the SIM unlocking, not the third-party hacks.

They are not being clear on that



Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

Now, I don't think the third-party hacks will work immediately after this update, we will see. My pessimism is based on the changes in the iPod touch firmware and the difficulties the hakcers are having on breaching it. There is a possibility that they made the Touch harder to breach so that you couldn't move apps from the iphone to the touch. For my iphone, I hope that's the case.


These jailbreaking procedures I think do modify the software in a way that it could screw up the update. Who is to say . All we can do is wait and see and then decide who we want to update with, Apple or the "community". For me...I will choose the community and if that means I have to stick with 1.0.2 then let it be. In 1 month we have a SLEW of new programs, features, themes, and this is all WITHOUT an SDK. In 2 months from launch, Apple is releasing "Itunes moble music store"... see where I am going.
post #12 of 32
I don't get it. Bloggers are writing about Apple "threatening" users. Apple using "strongarm" tactics to prevent unlocking. People are really getting carried away calling Apple the new Mafia. Next Apple will be called "a terrorist faction" if the iPhone suddenly becomes unusable when routinely upgrading firmware.

Since I never followed cellphones before, I'm curious if a lot of handset companies get grief if they're trying to keep their phones locked to a carrier. Is this a common complaint when standard firmware disables a tampered device? Is Apple really doing something illegal or morally wrong telling people not to tamper with the iPhone? If that's the case, why bother telling the people. Just put out the firmware upgrade and let the users worry about bricking their iPhones. A warning seems a better alternative. Yet people are claiming a warning is a disguised threat. These people are insane. There's a whole lot of hate going on here. I guess they'll be people bringing about lawsuits if their iPhones become useless.

I'm not saying people shouldn't try to unlock their iPhones, but I feel they should take the responsibility if something goes wrong and not blame the manufacturer of the device. They knew from the beginning that the iPhone was locked, so why are they blaming Apple for protecting that fact? They should have just bought an unlocked phone from another company. I guess this whole thing will blow over soon enough, but it really is annoying and is most likely annoying investors.

It's like if the fire department tells you not to use coins in place of fuses in a fusebox or an automobile manufacturer says you shouldn't tamper with the fuel delivery system. They're giving you information for safety of the device and your own good.

I believe the most common usage of the word 'threat' implies physical violence. It's lead overshoes and the deep blue sea for you, buddy. I doubt Steve Jobs said anything close to that.
post #13 of 32
how about we change that stupid title to read actual English?
post #14 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by daratbastid View Post

They are not being clear on that

How is Apple not being clear on that? Read the announcement - Apple uses the specific word "unlocking" multiple times.

In any case, it doesn't matter. We'll know soon enough what gets broken or bricked when the update arrives.
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post #15 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by ydnar600 View Post

how about we change that stupid title to read actual English?

Titles can't read.
post #16 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by ydnar600 View Post

how about we change that stupid title to read actual English?

FTFY.
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post #17 of 32
Question? Can't we just restore a "jailbreak" iphone to factory settings and wait and see what happen in the next few days?
post #18 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

How is Apple not being clear on that? Read the announcement - Apple uses the specific word "unlocking" multiple times.

In any case, it doesn't matter. We'll know soon enough what gets broken or bricked when the update arrives.



''This has nothing to do with proactively disabling a phone that is unlocked or hacked,'' Phil Schiller, Apple's senior vice president of worldwide product marketing, said in an interview. ''It's unfortunate that some of these programs have caused damage to the iPhone software, but Apple cannot be responsible for ... those consequences.'' The phone did not have the ability to load apps, now it is jailbroken and it can, therefore is has been hacked...? Apptap, Installer.app, whatever it is now..... is a hack, all the apps are hacks.
post #19 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by suhail View Post

Not intentionally, but also they're not willing to do anything about it, except "threaten" users who installed or considering to install "illegal" software an a device that has been fully paid for.

How did Apple "threaten" you? Did they say they will come and take your phone away? Did they not simply tell you what the consequences are, which is actually, for your own benefit? Would you rather they did not tell you so that you would not know those consequences ahead of time? Or are you saying that they're lying - that there really is no chance of getting bricked, and they're making it up to "scare" (i.e. threaten) you? Clarify.

And you're right that the device is fully paid for, and that you're free to do whatever you want with it. But you also agreed to a contract to use the iPhone as intended in order to gain continued service, including warranty service. Why should Apple continue to provide future services to you if you've already broken the contract? Why should Apple increase their support resources to understand all the unsanctioned things that others have done to the device? Explain this to me.

And why should Apple be "willing to do anything about it", when what the unlockers have done is not within Apple's vision for the iPhone? Why should Apple spend resources on this, when they can put those resources to furthering their vision for the users who have not unlocked it? Tell me why.
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post #20 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constable Odo View Post

I don't get it. Bloggers are writing about Apple "threatening" users. Apple using "strongarm" tactics to prevent unlocking. People are really getting carried away calling Apple the new Mafia. Next Apple will be called "a terrorist faction" if the iPhone suddenly becomes unusable when routinely upgrading firmware.

Since I never followed cellphones before, I'm curious if a lot of handset companies get grief if they're trying to keep their phones locked to a carrier.

A lot of people have iPhone envy. I know... it's not pretty and they end up sounding like prune faced spinsters talking to a young woman on her wedding day. Bitter lonely people just stealing everyone elses buzz.

I'm convinced that half the people complaining about "their iPhone" don't actually own one.
post #21 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by daratbastid View Post

''This has nothing to do with proactively disabling a phone that is unlocked or hacked,'' Phil Schiller, Apple's senior vice president of worldwide product marketing, said in an interview. ''It's unfortunate that some of these programs have caused damage to the iPhone software, but Apple cannot be responsible for ... those consequences.'' The phone did not have the ability to load apps, now it is jailbroken and it can, therefore is has been hacked...? Apptap, Installer.app, whatever it is now..... is a hack, all the apps are hacks.

This is how I read this: The initial announcement is very clear that some unlocking techniques can damage iPhone software in some way. Specifically unlocking.

Separately, Schiller was asked if Apple is proactively disabling unlocked or hacked phones. His answer is basically that Apple is not proactively disabling. But SOME programs cause damage. Now you may think that "hacking" programs cause damage, but that's not what the initial announcement said, and Schiller's use of "SOME" allows for his answer to refer to just unlocking and not hacking programs. Joswiak ("don't care" about hacks) and Jobs ("cat and mouse" about unlocking) previous comments are in line with this as well.
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post #22 of 32
Hey, Microsoft had done this for YEARS. It has a name. It's called FUD.
post #23 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by daratbastid View Post

Whatever the case I think they need to be clear on what they have learned .... apparently they applied the update and something went south, they need to tell us exactly what we can have and what we can't , plain and simple. Can you imagine the bad publicity if thousands , if not tens of thousands of iPhones just got bricked!? I dont care if they issued a statement, warning, whatever you want to call it...the media would be all over that.. They need to stop resisting and work with these developers already to really make this phone what it can be.

I wouldn't expect any more on the problems because then Apple gets into a position of being liable if they said some things but not other things.

In any case, they've already told us what "we can have and what we can't":
1. You shouldn't modify iPhone software (per terms of use agreement).
2. You shouldn't unlock iPhone (per terms of use agreement).
3. You can deliver features to iPhone via Web 2.0 applications.
4. Apple will add features to iPhone itself via iTunes updates.
5. Any update to iPhone might cause unlocked iPhones to no longer work. Apple will not fix that problem under warranty.
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post #24 of 32
I'm sure everyone here clearly understands what Apple is saying. The people being argumentative seem to want to find some justification why Apple should actually purposefully support hacked phones through softwar updates. That's the part that's crazy. No one supports hacks.
post #25 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by suhail View Post

Not intentionally, but also they're not willing to do anything about it, except "threaten" users who installed or considering to install "illegal" software an a device that has been fully paid for.

They aren't threatening anyone. They are simply stating facts.
post #26 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by daratbastid View Post

This will lead to a divide between people. You will either go with apple and restore your phone to factory conditions, get updates and rely on them for new features. OR you will go with the developers/hackers, rely on them to intoduce new features, and possibly be stuck in a 1.0.2 world (or wait for them to test update after update and say the coast is clear). I have no problem with them going againt people who hack unlocked the phone to be on a different carrier. It is money out of all thier pockets (and ours too as a matter of fact)...and its my opinion they have a right to do what they have to . I dont think they should discourge the developers however. These are the people who make the device what it is and what it will become. Look at all the cool new things you can do with your phone since it was released June 29th. People have hacked Apple products from the beginning of time, Woz was the founder of this principal ....its the way it has been and will always be. They have never had a problem with it before. Whatever the case I think they need to be clear on what they have learned .... apparently they applied the update and something went south, they need to tell us exactly what we can have and what we can't , plain and simple. Can you imagine the bad publicity if thousands , if not tens of thousands of iPhones just got bricked!? I dont care if they issued a statement, warning, whatever you want to call it...the media would be all over that.. They need to stop resisting and work with these developers already to really make this phone what it can be. BTW I wonder how many of these "developers" are actually Apple employees on the down low

Have you heard of paragraphs? It helps a lot.

They are talking about the unlockers, not the software developers.
post #27 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by daratbastid View Post

Can you imagine the bad publicity if thousands , if not tens of thousands of iPhones just got bricked!?

There are certainly NOT tens of thousands of people with the time to install these hacks. Hackers are a small community of geeks with nothing but time on their hands.

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post #28 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

I wouldn't expect any more on the problems because then Apple gets into a position of being liable if they said some things but not other things.

In any case, they've already told us what "we can have and what we can't":
1. You shouldn't modify iPhone software (per terms of use agreement).
2. You shouldn't unlock iPhone (per terms of use agreement).
3. You can deliver features to iPhone via Web 2.0 applications.
4. Apple will add features to iPhone itself via iTunes updates.
5. Any update to iPhone might cause unlocked iPhones to no longer work. Apple will not fix that problem under warranty.

Just for the heck of it, because it's here on my desk, I looked at my manual for my Canon 5D digital camera. One of the things it says is this:

"Do not make any changes or modifications to the equipment unless otherwise specified in the manual. If such changes or modifications should be made, you could be required to stop operation of the equipment."

This isn't even saying that it might not work. Canon might REQUIRE you to stop using it!
post #29 of 32
Jobs probably hired OJ to make sure that every unlocked iphone is bricked after this update.
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post #30 of 32
The problem in Apple's case is, there is a clear history of hacking from the inception of the company, and current attitudes contrary to their company's DNA stick out like a sore pinky.

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post #31 of 32
Apple has no clear history of insuring software updates do not break hacks. Apple has not said that we cannot hack, they've simply said they will not support it. And any damage that occurs they will not take responsibility for.
post #32 of 32
Stating for the record that Apple is not "proactively" doing something to undermine the hacksters smells like a proactive move to stem or defend against a class action lawsuit that will allege that they indeed intentionally harmed the iPhone.

Strikes me as a catch 22 situation. ATT may have to lower the pressure and accept the fact that their service is so bad that many people just want to have the functionality without their service.
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