Up next for Apple: the return of the Newton - Page 3

You just typed a whole lot of 'what it's not'.

What do you think it is? What is a "personal digital life manager"?

Sounds like a PDA/UMPC to me.

This is a bunch of doublespeak.

Heh... looks like Audio picked up on the same thing.

Better that to use windows like the Star Trek Enterprise

I'm pretty sure I said that...?


Yup! I did! Where did "MrJoec123" come from?

-Clive

Be an interesting feature in every new car starting with all top of line cars, large iphone capability , but wi fi , PDA , classroom , .... sell a few million . Not suit every one nor replace laptops or iphone. But sell a boat load and get more people over to apple ... the Next wave is comin. This three legged chair is gonna get a lot more legs. Getting to be a great toy company for adults. I just need a little more gamer friendly devices and i'll purchase my 3 new iphones i'm gonna get soon. And when i buy the game i want to run it on my laptop and new devices for the one time purchase price of what was advertised. Make them interchangeable and that you can continue the game when u get home or office or wherever .. poker on line and other games are a must . Outside apps are a must . How about pick your own carrier like you do with your laptop cause it isn't a phone till i put my USB jack in lol .

Okay .... but they can still make people lust for this new product by providing it with things like a bigger device (as per the article) and a higher resolution (also per the article). These two features will certainly make more than a few people step up with their amex cards...

I do believe that it's this device that is in-fact holding up Apple releasing a full fledged SDK as well as opening the gates to 3rd party development.

It could be that the SDK / API isn't quite up to snuff yet.... Sure (it would seem) Apple has just about every base covered when it comes to API functions **but** they might not be fully developed for everything they want not to mention packaging all the API goodness into developer ready packages WITH DOCUMENTATION .... then again, has new API documentation ever been Apples strong point?!?!

Dave

iPod nano uses a screen that's just above 200ppi, I think 204. I think that's still about the best that can be made at an affordable price.

My apologies for the exaggeration. The iPod nano has 204 dpi.

It has the hardware and OS components of a PDA, but the included iTouch software doesn't do a few things that's critical to a PDA, such as take, store, sync and show notes, have a todo list, and there's this inability to enter contacts (or is it calendar entries?, it does one but not the other). It is very nice and it has incredible potential, but it's not quite there yet either.

The biggest problem with the Foleo was that it used a totally different OS than anything else Palm made or even had plans to make. Apple already has this one figured out, and they already have the iPhone/iPod touch to work with for this.

Your ignorance is displeasing. 1) why the h*ll would you put a harddrive in an ultra-portable device. Flash memory is where even notebooks are heading. 2) Palms and other PDAs are not "hobby device", so why would the new Newton be so? Newtons were the original PDA, and were widely adopted across several industries, including medicine. 3) Newton's were big due to the technology at the time, and because they were more powerful. Palm's have only recent approached the power of the Newton. And obviously you can have a better display on a larger device, especially for professional applications (ever try reading much off of a Palm? it sucks.).

some more interesting things to ponder... why is Apple creating diverging devices when all this stuff could be on one device (e.g. phone, pda, music player)? Maybe they're doing it for profit, or maybe different people want different functionality. Maybe they will re-integrate these functions on a single device, e.g. if they ever open the iPhone up to development. just some random thoughts... discuss!

The evidence: a) A year or so ago, it was reported that Apple were buying the rights to re-sell a huge number of books. b) The iPhone screen is too small for lengthy reading sessions. c) No company (not even Sony) has yet produced a useable 'eBook' that matches the form factor and intuitive convenience of a typical paperback. d) Apple's multi-touch interface is perfect for navigating 'pages'. Drag across the screen to the right or left to 'turn' the page in the appropriate direction. Want to zoom into a word or illustration? Just spread your fingers apart. Want to look up a word? Hold your finger down on the word and select 'Dictionary' or 'Thesaurus' from the menu. Oh, and where do you get your book from? Well, iTunes of course! £4.99 a pop single user, or £7.99 to share with all those people who you loaned your real paper books to years ago in the tactile age. (I actually designed at conceptual level a device like this years ago for Bitstream Corp, before the Newton was even conceived. But Apple will deliver it. Because they can.) Want to see a Hypercard simulation of my idea? Drop me a line to 'alex.blok AT owonder.com'. (Sadly, my simulation only runs on OS9 unless someone has a Hypercard simulator for OSX!)

I suspect this will be a scaled up iPhone/iPod touch. After doing some reading from people who have hacked the iPhone, I get the impression that the the underlying software is rather immature. That *may* be the reason we haven't see 3rd party app support yet (and/or Apple's just greedy). Apple can plod along with its lack of third party software support on a phone or iPod for a few months, but a tablet/UMPC type device is going to need it. One can only hope Apple will try to keep the software between these devices fairly much in sync (though so far they don't seem to be doing it).

A 6"-8" screen will also make a nice mobile video player.

Sure, that was a problem too. But the fact that Apple has its mobile platform figured out (as much as a work-in-progress is figured out - ) isn't a reason for them not to use it more widely -- just the opposite. Now is the time to put it everywhere in as many (viable!) forms as possible, while there's nothing else like it on the market.

Pocket-sized devices are great, but they're also bound by the limitations of their size. They excel at some functions, and are limited at others. Just because the iPhone offers what's probably the best mobile browsing experience to date doesn't mean it can't be even better.

There may be room in the market for a small tablet form, and the growth of the internet tablet as potentially emerging product category -- see the Nokia 800 for evidence.

Shouldn't any successor to the Newton be called the iNstein?

TWO successive models well underway?

For exactly the reason why they other poster mentioned. If Apple viewed this as a potential video player, flash memory is currently way too expensive for storing movies. That doesn't mean that the OS and other content stored on the device wouldn't be stored on flash.

Kormac, YAY!! Maaan, that brings back memories. Good times ...

I'd noticed that, too ... Kasper filled me in:

You've been here since 2003 and have 1 post?
A little shy, are we?

Come on now.

Flash is where things are going, but given its cost, and the fact that this thing is freaking huge, there's plenty of space to put a 1.8" hard drive like what is in the Classic. That would give us 160GB instead of 16GB, plenty of room for movies, music, PDFs and so on.

I did not mean to suggest that PDAs were hobby devices, but rather, like Steve said of the AppleTV, this UMPC/PDA might be another "hobby" of his, assuming it's real.

I haven't read all of the other posts yet - so this may be redundant.

All I want is a tablet that will:

* allow me to take notes (either typed or w/ stylus)

* allow me to store / view PDF documents. I have been buying ebooks (Thanks apress.com) and would like an easy way to browse them w/o being at my computer.

* calendar / address book stuff of course

* wireless internet access - what would be nice is for Apple/AT&T, etc. to offer a non-voice account so I can surf/check email ANYWHERE (falling back to wireless router when available). I would pay maybe $30/mo just for that.

* maybe be an iPod (could be called iPod tablet)

* watch videos.

As for specs, I would want 16+ gig of flash (maybe removable), Bluetooth to use keyboard/mouse.

* A wish might be to have a reduced version of Pages/Numbers also. This would justify Apple releasing iWork on Windows. I personally think this would be a great thing to do - and I am sure Apple has plans to do so.

+1

I hear TONS of people complaining about how the touch doesn't have 160 gbs.
Tons of people want a bit of flash for OSX, and then just a hdd.

I can see that. It's a good idea for any technology company to look two or three years down the horizon because product development cycles can be long even if the actual sales life of the product is only a year.

That's why I put that in. I fully understand that iTouch can't swing it because Apple likes it thin, but with a mini-tablet/UMPC/large PDA, it can be a little thicker and still look thin. The projected size of that thing would probably mean they can really beef up the battery, and that would be needed too.

This guy's on track. This thing is not a PDA. It's the ultra-portable, fully Mac, unit we all need. Some of us don't know that we need it yet, but Steve can open our eyes.

It needs about 64GB of NAND, no HDD, and decent input options.

It should sync with my iMac whenever I get near it.

If you commute by train or plane, this thing's for you. Want to read documents, textbooks, edit photos, or dozens of other things while traveling? This is it.

College textbooks don't need to weigh 6 kilos each any more. Put 'em in here, and take your notes right on the pages. Have your professor beam lecture notes (Keynote) into it during class.

Play music on it, watch movies you've downloaded from iTunes -- heck, you might even be able to get some kind of freaky Starbuck's connection on the thing!

I could go on and on. I want to buy this thing TODAY!

That's a big assumption.

But we can all argue, because some people think it'll be the ultraportable, and if that is the case, then solid state only.

This is common in consumer electronics/products.

I'm currently working with plain-old office products, and we have to plan 1 year in advance.

So Ireland was right after all

Sure, here's my prediction!

Interested to see what all the folks who thought I was crazy to say this a while back have to say now.

Also it's funny to read the comments over there, interesting stuff.

Any guesses if it'll have a ARM series processor or a U-class Core Duo?
Whatever processor they put in, I wonder what the OS will look like, it sure isn't gonna run on Leopard I thin... unless they'll make it at least 10 inch in diameter.

-----

Heh, I'd forgotten about those patent pictures. I doubt it'll be 10", though. 7" at the most. 5.5" screen if they keep the same PPI as the iPhone/iPod touch.

You're still crazy, btw.

Here's to the crazy ones

Oh I know, I'm speculating about more useful screen resolutions .

Screen Resolution

Ok the iPhone has a 3.5" screen at 480x320, 163 dpi. If we go for a 7" screen, that is literally doubling the size of the iPhone, we get a resolution of 960x640.

Late model Newton's used a 6" screen, but Newton II would be more screen on the body then a MessagePad 2100 so a similar sized device overall.

I think that's too low a resolution as I consider 1024x768 to be pretty much the bottom floor if Newton II is to be usable. However I don't think we're limited to 163 dpi with resolution independence so what if we take a bold step forward… 247 dpi.

247 dpi works out to a resolution of 1440x960 on a 7" screen and 720x480 on the iPhone/iPod Touch Revision B or C or whatever, as I imagine they'll seek to match dpi eventually.

Now that's a high dpi but Hitachi has a 2.9" 800x480 panel for Japanese cellphones, so this is doable.

You could go with a 6" screen at 1200x800 with a dpi of 240 which would also work well. That would work out to about 700x460, 239 dpi on the iPhone's 3.5" screen. If we seek to match dpi and aspect ratio across the two families.

If you wanted a 5.5" screen you could go with 1152x768 with a dpi of 251—still possible. That would mean we're back to 720x480 & 247 dpi on the iPhone.

I think either the 7" screen (really push it) or the 5.5" screen is the way to go. Of course the rumoured 720x480 screen is probably more likely, but I wouldn't consider that useful.

My 12" PB has 1024x768, and I would be unwilling to use anything smaller in a long term use device. Check out the Nokia N800 tablet thingy and try spending a while staring at it, the resolution (800x480) feels like a big limiting factor IMO.

And the N800, incidentally, has a pretty high dpi of its own: 800x480 resolution, 4.1" (or 4.3) diagonal, ~225 dpi. (I really don't know how Jobs managed to claim the iPhone has this world class dpi screen. It's a great screen to be sure, but there are better.)


Positioning
So that the categories are all clear:

At the pocket level we have smartphones using a mobile embedded operating system. This is the Treo or (potentially) the iPhone. It's the Swiss army device designed to replace phone/iPod/camera/PDA and is mostly about content, communication, and scheduling. The evolution of the PDA into the smartphone, and now into multimedia (or, the PDA/multimedia Sony Clie crossed with a phone).

Technically speaking stand alone PDAs live here as well, but the smartphone has taken over the PDA market.


At the freakishly large pocket level (yep, some people made pockets big enough for a Newton), or small bag level, we have:

-Newton (5-6" screen): Small tablet using an embedded operating system. A modern version is one step above an Internet Tablet, as it can do things decently (at least based on Newton's versus their competitors way back then, or Newton II versus stuff now), but sideways from an UMPC as it uses an embedded operating system instead of a full PC one.

-Limited Tablet (4-6" screen) The Nokia N800 & Intel's new Mobile Internet Device category which is—as far as I can tell—a UMPC running embedded operating systems. Basically this what you get when you stick a weak processor with an embedded system. Internet browsing type things with limited ability to do other work.

-UMPC (6-7" screens) : Small tablet using a full operating system (should be using an embedded operating system). Useful, but the full Windows operating system on a small screen, limited power device blows, and battery life is weak.

-eMate: Miniature laptop using an embedded operating system, like a useful Palm Foleo. Also see Asus's EEE.

-Subnotebooks: Miniature to tiny laptop, with limited computing resources, using a full operating system. Notably expensive.


Above that is the usual line-up of laptops & the larger tablets.

Note how it appears that the Newton slot (or the eMate slot, IMO) is awesome? That's because no one else has managed to do it right either making it too slow (N800) or too hard to use (UMPC with full Windows OS), and none with the 24+ hour battery life of the original Newton.



Not A PDA
Obviously it's not a PDA. PDAs are dead because of smartphones (heck back in 1995 when Palm's PDAs came out adding a cell chip was the smart move… it just took Palm a really long time to figure that out). So no, the standalone PDA space is death and rightly so. That spot can be filled by the iPhone and/or iPod Touch as soon as an SDK is released.

The Newton was working towards being much more than just PDA, which is why Palm's PDAs kicked its ass at being a PDA as all Palm Pilots ever wanted to be were PDAs.

This is the Newton II, basically, and as such it seems roughly equivalent to a UMPC (noticeably, though, UMPCs run the full version of Windows while Newton II would be running the embedded operating system the iPhone uses, Mobile OS X) or a small tablet—though that's really all a UMPC is.

What do you do on your laptop? Word processing, business software, email, surf the web, multimedia, limited multimedia manipulation, games. Note that a Foleo or a Nokia N800, both similar in concept, manage to fail at a number of these things. A UMPC can do it, but who wants to use full-on Windows on something like that? Ugh.

This can do anything a Mac could do, minus CPU/GPU power. So Photoshop is out, but iPhoto is in. Final Cut Pro is out, iMovie '08 (ultra light version) is in. Etc…

Given Mobile OS X & Multitouch it seems clear that this would very much fall in the Newton's category. I actually think this might work better as an eMate type thing (or think of it like the Foleo done right) with a real keyboard. We talked about it a bit in this thread and the general conclusion was for something this size keyboard beats slate tablet. Maybe Apple believes differently, though, as the rumour is for a slate tablet.

Like the common knock against the Palm Foleo you basically have to be able to use Newton II to replace your laptop for everything short of high-end CPU/GPU stuff. That shouldn't be too hard. But there also needs to be a reason to push this, like say 24 hours of battery or eBooks or something.

Basically: Why should I carry Newton II (+iPhone, even) when I could carry a MacBook and an iPhone?

So it really does have to do everything a regular laptop would, minus CPU/GPU stuff, and do it better. Better is multitouch, I'd argue, better is 24 hours of battery life, better is a screen sharp enough to read eBooks comfortably off, better is a 3G card slot for EV-DO or UMTS, etc….

Heck if I could buy this and a keyboard, well that's smaller, cheaper, lighter than my laptop, cheaper than a subnotebook, and has way better battery life. It runs all the same programs I'd usually run (even low end games) and if I could offload tasks (dumb terminal style) to my home machine and get results back that would be pretty cool, indeed.

Battery life, battery life, multitouch, and oh yeah… battery life. If this does 4 hours, forget it. If it does 12 or more… bingo!

I can see FedEX, UPS, Hospitals, and any other business needing digital signatures and massive package transportation leveraging such a friendly device.

The source indicated a 720x480 screen.

I think this would actually be pretty great. You could use LogMeIn to control your home computer from anywhere in the world (provided you had wifi). They'd also have to put google earth and GPS on this thing. Probably an iSight as well... and maybe even with the ability to record video. I just bought a Newton a while ago, and I'm starting to see why a device like this makes sense... it would be much sleeker and lighter than the Newton was, and much more powerful. It would have to be durable too. I think something around the size of a small Moleskine notebook would be excellent.

What would Apple charge for it, though? It's definitely something I'd be interested in, considering I have to lug my laptop around all the time..... horrible. Anyway, I would pay $400-$500 for a device like this; after all, it will be a scaled-up iPhone, probably with a couple of new little features and stuff... really, besides the larger screen, a larger device would probably be cheaper to produce, as you don't have to be so crazy about where everything goes in the case (easier to design than the iPhone, that is). Actual retail price? Probably in the area of $700-$800.

C'est la vie.

Perhaps this will be the first intel based pocket machine running the mini OS X seen on iPhod. Would be cool with the new 32 Nano tech intel chips. (Is it 32?)

By the way. If an Apple PDA runs the same OS X as iPhod, and there would be now real reason why one shouldn't be able to run the same apps across all three devices I would be disappointed if Apple decided that this forthcoming PDA was the only one to install selected apps on. That would be a setback. Like selling a iMac that can't install Final Cut Pro or something like that..