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Gateway hopes "One" will tempt would-be iMac buyers (photos) - Page 4

post #121 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by lundy View Post

And your name-calling makes me embarrassed that we have such rude users here, so I am reducing the number by one, namely you.

Wow, i read his post and it is not even close to being horrible. Yes, he was calling names but is this a forum for only nice people?. You know what they say about a society that only has one opinion?.. the soviet union (and we see how innovative and inventive they are)
post #122 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

Wow, i read his post and it is not even close to being horrible. Yes, he was calling names but is this a forum for only nice people?. You know what they say about a society that only has one opinion?.. the soviet union (and we see how innovative and inventive they are)

Non sequitur. Nice people can have differing opinions.
post #123 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

Wow, i read his post and it is not even close to being horrible. Yes, he was calling names but is this a forum for only nice people?. You know what they say about a society that only has one opinion?.. the soviet union (and we see how innovative and inventive they are)

Rest assured, there were posts that you did not see.

Comments about forum moderation are also against the posting guidelines.
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post #124 of 154
Oh, and let me remind everyone (or tell everyone, because I suspect nobody remembers) that I do not lock threads. Ever. I have a 100% no-lock policy.

That means more work for me removing the junk so the thread can continue on-topic, but it also means that you never have to worry about a thread that you wanted to keep participating in, or watching the discussion in, getting locked in Current Hardware, Mac OS, or Genius Bar.
--Johnny
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post #125 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by bg_nyc View Post

Its cool nonetheless, and points out how Apple is still the only innovator when it comes to style. But that doesn't mean that Apple can't be improved upon.

I actually think the imac should have looked more like this. It would have very nicely tied together the ipod, iphone, and imac for an aesthetically uniform line of products. Instead, the new imac has aluminum which is very nice, but doesn't look at all like the touch, iphone and nanos (at least not from the front view).

If this could run MacOSX, I would seriously consider it as a replacement to my ancient powerbook. This gateway is beautiful, but as long as its running MSFT, it will lose in the long run. I think Gateway needs to find a way to let people install OSX on their PCs. Is this possible?

This may have been covered in a different thread, but why can't Gateway/Dell/HP just start making their systems compatible with OSX? Does Apple have a patent on a certain system that restricts other pc's from running OSX? Aren't they all running the same 'intel inside' hardware now?

There's certainly no technical reason why any of Dell or HP's current offerings wouldn't be able to run OSX - as long as they are prepared to provide EFI (many such computers probably actually are running EFI, with a BIOS emulation layer on top of it for Windows's sake) and the drivers for all the equipment that they use which would never find its way into a Mac and therefore doesn't have an OSX driver yet - such as nVidia embedded GPUs etc.

However, Mac OS X is the intellectual property of Apple, and their license does not allow the OS to be installed on any non-Apple hardware, so the simple act of installing it on a Dell or HP computer would be a breach of contract and copyright infringement.

Additionally, I think the official Intel version of OS X (not the hacked OSx86 version) requires the presence of a TPM module in the motherboard to uniquely the part as a genuine Apple-manufactured machine.

This wasn't an issue back in the PPC days because there literally didn't exist any equivalent hardware for which Mac OS wasn't already licensed.

So if Dell or HP want to start selling their equipment running Mac OS X, they'll be obliged to work out a licensing deal with Apple - it won't be as simple as just buying a whole bunch of Leopard DVDs from the local computer store and slapping them on their equipment.
post #126 of 154
it doesn't matter what form factor, it could be identical to an imac but it runs flista, should of mistja. my IT dept wont touch vista for more than a year at least, all are required to have xp but windows still sucks

the ONE still has the one problem......windows.
I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
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I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
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post #127 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster View Post

Good point, but in my experience, I've yet to replace any power brick on any piece of electronics I've ever owned...

I've ordered replacements or Notebook power bricks for 8 people this week. 4 of them were from today. A notebook replacement Powerbrick averages $130, that is just for power, a device with peripheral ports would have to cost at least twice that.
post #128 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnurse View Post

What if you want to upgrade your hard drive before it fails?. Also i am working on a computer that has a hard drive failure.. try telling the person who paid over $2000 for it to go buy another one.. Computers are not disposable accessories.. people don't just go buy another one.. mac owners are certainly elitist.. maybe that's why apple overprices their computers.. they know mac owners have tons of money to buy another one rather than fix the one they own.



Has anyone here said anything about throwing the computer away and getting another one just because the hard disk failed? No one has. My shop charges $39.95 to replace a hard disk, IN ANY COMPUTER. I've never once told a Mac user to throw out their $2000 computer when a hard disk needs replaced, I did have to convince someone last week that the $475 for the logic board on their G4 might not be worth it.

And once again...this current model of the iMac is easier to work on than the previous 2 models. A suction cup gets the glass out, 10 screws to remove the bezel and the hard disk is right there.
post #129 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfmorrison View Post

There's certainly no technical reason why any of Dell or HP's current offerings wouldn't be able to run OSX - as long as they are prepared to provide EFI (many such computers probably actually are running EFI, with a BIOS emulation layer on top of it for Windows's sake) and the drivers for all the equipment that they use which would never find its way into a Mac and therefore doesn't have an OSX driver yet - such as nVidia embedded GPUs etc.


Dell might, but I know HP doesn't (perhaps in their servers) HP uses boards made my other manufacturers, I've gotten an assortment of Gigabyte, Asus, Intel, Abit, Biostar boards any time I've ordered replacements. Dell is the only PC maker out there that still has boards made specifically for them, everyone else uses various (low bid) board makers and creates a DMI for the BIOS.
post #130 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Has anyone here said anything about throwing the computer away and getting another one just because the hard disk failed? No one has. My shop charges $39.95 to replace a hard disk, IN ANY COMPUTER. I've never once told a Mac user to throw out their $2000 computer when a hard disk needs replaced, I did have to convince someone last week that the $475 for the logic board on their G4 might not be worth it.

And once again...this current model of the iMac is easier to work on than the previous 2 models. A suction cup gets the glass out, 10 screws to remove the bezel and the hard disk is right there.

Yeah, nobody's talking about disposing of an iMac because of the hard drive, just the hassle of needing to have a service centre do the work of replacing it.

Roehl, since you work on these things, can you offer an informed opinion as to why Apple didn't just make the hard drive replaceable from the back of the machine? Removing an LCD would be quite intimidating for the novice, and would seem to be to be more risky (glass breakage) than allowing for rear access.
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post #131 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Dell might, but I know HP doesn't (perhaps in their servers) HP uses boards made my other manufacturers, I've gotten an assortment of Gigabyte, Asus, Intel, Abit, Biostar boards any time I've ordered replacements. Dell is the only PC maker out there that still has boards made specifically for them, everyone else uses various (low bid) board makers and creates a DMI for the BIOS.

Well every recent Intel-manufactured motherboard (and supposedly every board using Intel's 945 chipset in general), at least, has OEM hardware-level support for the framework in which EFI executes; whether or not the vendor (HP or Dell in this case) chooses to enable this option or release new Flash ROM images containing that support is another question.
post #132 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphyweb View Post

Oh this was a great story to bring the pathetic fanboys out of their closet!!!.... <snip> .... i have a life and do not have time .... <snip> ... You mac fanboys.... Apple is a company, they make computers, they make lots of money from fanboys, they are not a religion, Steve Jobs is not God... <snip>.... They love the fact that people masturbate over the latest update to iPhoto - they have based a whole business around that fact!! get over yourselves please and get a life!

The best part?

Quote:
Originally Posted by murphyweb View Post

This site makes me embarrassed to be a Mac user.

Ha ha ... priceless ... Perfect epitome of the "anti-Apple" Mac user. In deep denial, and just, well, rabid.
post #133 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

it doesn't matter what form factor, it could be identical to an imac but it runs flista, should of mistja. my IT dept wont touch vista for more than a year at least, all are required to have xp but windows still sucks

the ONE still has the one problem......windows.

I have *banned* vista from my company.
Nah, just kidding, just that I strongly recommend XP2Pro.
post #134 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Yeah, nobody's talking about disposing of an iMac because of the hard drive, just the hassle of needing to have a service centre do the work of replacing it.

Roehl, since you work on these things, can you offer an informed opinion as to why Apple didn't just make the hard drive replaceable from the back of the machine? Removing an LCD would be quite intimidating for the novice, and would seem to be to be more risky (glass breakage) than allowing for rear access.

They made the first generation iMac G5 user accessible to the parts and found that they were doing a lot of repairs on computers that the customers were messing up, they wasted a lot of money replacing components under warranty that the customer was negligent on, but in in good faith went ahead and replaced anyway. They changed that design the very next revision no longer making anything but the RAM accessible, and making it accessible only in a way makes it difficult for the customer to accidently leave the power one when installing RAM. I knew the first day they made that back removable to get to the components on the original imac G5 that they would be changing that design. I made that comment to my collegues, and they laughed the day the next revision came out. They went from really accessible to a one hour take apart session.
post #135 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfmorrison View Post

Well every recent Intel-manufactured motherboard (and supposedly every board using Intel's 945 chipset in general), at least, has OEM hardware-level support for the framework in which EFI executes; whether or not the vendor (HP or Dell in this case) chooses to enable this option or release new Flash ROM images containing that support is another question.

Yeah, they do, what was the point? Run Mac OS X on it? Ok, anyone have Mac OS X drivers for all those components? Will all those components talk to EFI? And why spend more money on this Gateway than an iMac then when the iMac clearly has better specs? A buddy of mine has hacked his HP to run OS X, he says it's neat and all but the performance isn't that great. His video support isn't great either since the card doesn't really have OS X drivers. Apple wants that quality control on the OS user experience.
post #136 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

They made the first generation iMac G5 user accessible to the parts and found that they were doing a lot of repairs on computers that the customers were messing up, they wasted a lot of money replacing components under warranty that the customer was negligent on, but in in good faith went ahead and replaced anyway.

Do you have a source for that?

Not only haven't I heard of of that, it doesn't make sense. Most desktops are user accessible and somehow, as far that I remember, only Apple has seen the need to drop that.
post #137 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Do you have a source for that?

Not only haven't I heard of of that, it doesn't make sense. That really doesn't even make sense as most desktops are user accessible and so far that I remember, only Apple has seen the need to drop that?

Why would they choose to do a design change like that, especially when it would have been easier to keep the back openable when they added the camera to the bezel? The only reason they would change that design is because they had a reason to keep the consumer out, and they had to have a reason for that. And the iMac is NOT a desktop computer, it is an All-in-one. The Mac Pro is a desktop and is totally accessible.

Apple is NOT the only manufacturer that limits access to the internal components on their machines. Look at ANY Gateway Profile computer, A number of Sony models, I wouldn't even consider the current HP Media Center desktops as "user accessible" since installing RAM requires removing the large removable drive chassis. And all those cables everywhere.

Remember that Apple has far fewer models than all of the rest. The machines they do make user accessible are far easier to work on than any PC out there, starting with the G3 blue and white, continuing through the G4, G5 and the Mac Pro, Even the XServes are easier to get into within the rack than other 1U servers.
post #138 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Why would they choose to do a design change like that, especially when it would have been easier to keep the back openable when they added the camera to the bezel? The only reason they would change that design is because they had a reason to keep the consumer out, and they had to have a reason for that.

So that means your claim that Apple got sick of paying for "warranty" stuff is just speculation that you failed to note as speculation.

Quote:
And the iMac is NOT a desktop computer, it is an All-in-one. The Mac Pro is a desktop and is totally accessible

If you're going to make distinctions like that, then the Mac Pro is really a workstation.

Quote:
Apple is NOT the only manufacturer that limits access to the internal components on their machines. Look at ANY Gateway Profile computer, A number of Sony models, I wouldn't even consider the current HP Media Center desktops as "user accessible" since installing RAM requires removing the large removable drive chassis. And all those cables everywhere.

Those machines are such a negligible portion of the market though.

HP dropped their media center line and as far as I know, they haven't come back. The one model that I found that still claims to be for entertainment and has MCE, z560/z565, does have a thumbscrew that you use to pop out the hard drive. Offering easy hard drive replacement does make sense for media computers because that's the need that's likely to get swamped first as it's easy to have media accumulate as it's recorded. For people that record stuff, recording space can be consumed a lot quicker than RAM.
post #139 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

So that means your claim that Apple got sick of paying for "warranty" stuff is just speculation that you failed to note as speculation.



If you're going to make distinctions like that, then the Mac Pro is really a workstation.



Those machines are such a negligible portion of the market though.

HP dropped their media center line and as far as I know, they haven't come back. The one model that I found that still claims to be for entertainment and has MCE, z560/z565, does have a thumbscrew that you use to pop out the hard drive. Offering easy hard drive replacement does make sense for media computers because that's the need that's likely to get swamped first as it's easy to have media accumulate as it's recorded.

Yes it was speculation, not necessarily only my speculation, It isn't like I can quote a source that is an internal memo.

Yes the Mac Pro is a workstation (it uses Xeon processors remember), there is no law out there that says a computer maker has to make a desktop, I guess the closest thing Apple has to a desktop is the Mac mini, but really, that is a specialty computer, the Mac Pro is closer to being a desktop in this matter.

Anyone that wants to tinker with a computer is not going to be afraid to open up any Mac out there.

That Negligible portion of the market you speak of is not that negligible, there were 6 versions of the Profile, Sony made as many all-in-one models as there were imacs.

HP still makes Media Center Pavilions, they are desktop form factors, but because of that media bay, the average consumer would feel very weary of adding RAM to it, (the hard disk is easy to access) but you have to remove the media bay chassis to access the RAM. Also if you want to add a video card to this computer that is worth anything you have to replace the 250W PSU with a new Power Supply, you have to remove that chassis to get to the board power plug. Current models of this machine is the Pavilion m8100y and m8100e
post #140 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Yes it was speculation, not necessarily only my speculation, It isn't like I can quote a source that is an internal memo.

An internal memo is not the only way to get a source. I don't care whose speculation it is, it's important to make that clear and not present it as if it were a known fact.

Quote:
That Negligible portion of the market you speak of is not that negligible, there were 6 versions of the Profile, Sony made as many all-in-one models as there were imacs.

The number of models doesn't make it negligible, it's the actual number of units sold. Another reason the number of models wouldn't be a good comparison because the number of models of towers is considerably higher as well.
post #141 of 154
[QUOTE=JeffDM;1150287]An internal memo is not the only way to get a source. I don't care whose speculation it is, it's important to make that clear and not present it as if it were a known fact.

Take a look here

http://www.wired.com/science/discove.../2004/10/65510

Along with a MacWorld interview with the imac G5 designer.

Apple touted the fact they made it user serviceable. Then suddenly changed their mind in the VERY NEXT REVISION. Why would that be? No model before that model was user servicable and no model since has been. I wonder what the variable is.

By the way, I never presented it as a fact, someone asked me that since I work on them, what do I think the reason is they took the user servicability away was. I gave the information I had based on what I saw personally and by what my parts supplier (Apple) told me, I can't say that was the official policy.
post #142 of 154
Roehl's explanation is a good one, and very likely is the reason Apple went crazy locking up the iMac internals.

However, Apple could just as easily make only the hard disk and RAM compartments accessible, instead of having users take off the entire back of the machine. This is how it's done with the Apple portables, and I haven't heard of Mac users damaging their MacBooks internals because they went messing with the insides of the machine.
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post #143 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Roehl's explanation is a good one, and very likely is the reason Apple went crazy locking up the iMac internals.

However, Apple could just as easily make only the hard disk and RAM compartments accessible, instead of having users take off the entire back of the machine. This is how it's done with the Apple portables, and I haven't heard of Mac users damaging their MacBooks internals because they went messing with the insides of the machine.

Yeah with the advent of SATA drives plug and play is easy, (I am still frustrated at what it takes to replace a hard disk on the MacBook Pro, I wonder if they did this with the imac because the way the stand works on the iMac is largely based on the center of gravity of the machine, some hard disks are heavier than others, it would stink to put a hard disk in there that was heavy enough to mess up the balance of the stand, you'd get people complaining that the screen sags. (Speculation)
post #144 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Take a look here

http://www.wired.com/science/discove.../2004/10/65510

Along with a MacWorld interview with the imac G5 designer.

Apple touted the fact they made it user serviceable. Then suddenly changed their mind in the VERY NEXT REVISION. Why would that be? No model before that model was user servicable and no model since has been. I wonder what the variable is.

That is circumstantial at best, that still doesn't establish that it's because of not wanting to fix what customers damage. Apple isn't obliged to fix what customers damage, by law or by their policy.

Quote:
By the way, I never presented it as a fact, someone asked me that since I work on them, what do I think the reason is they took the user servicability away was. I gave the information I had based on what I saw personally and by what my parts supplier (Apple) told me, I can't say that was the official policy.

OK, fair enough.
post #145 of 154
Just to be clear on that article, it mentions the fact that a customer was fixing the power supply on his computer.

I completely understand that's crazy. Even Pros shouldn't be messing with the motherboard of their computers.

My point is that the iMac (and Mac Mini) should be re-engineered to allow customer replacement of only three basic components: RAM, Hard Disk and GPU.

I'm fine with everything else being fixed at the dealer.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #146 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Just to be clear on that article, it mentions the fact that a customer was fixing the power supply on his computer.

I completely understand that's crazy. Even Pros shouldn't be messing with the motherboard of their computers.

My point is that the iMac (and Mac Mini) should be re-engineered to allow customer replacement of only three basic components: RAM, Hard Disk and GPU.

I'm fine with everything else being fixed at the dealer.

Oh I completly agree and always have. But will that affect the integrity of the design, in many cases you give up elegant design for ease of use (not that that is always a problem) I'd love if they'd made it easier to get to the hard disk, I replace enough of them (granted the machines are generally 6 years old by the time the drive fails)

But people might want bigger hard disks, I personally think 250 GB is perfect right now, I've only used about 60 GB of my 250 GB hard disk in my Mac Pro, but I keep all my music on a portable external drive. I shy away from 500 and 750 GB hard disks because if that drive were to crash when full, that is a lot of data to lose.
post #147 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

That is circumstantial at best, that still doesn't establish that it's because of not wanting to fix what customers damage. Apple isn't obliged to fix what customers damage, by law or by their policy.

Unfortunately there is a huge gray area there as to what damage was caused by customer negligence or whatever, Apple chose to remove all doubt.

Check with the PC warranty as well on desktop machines, make sure it is clear that if you replace the hard disk on your computer that you don't void the warranty. In cases where I have done warranty work on an HP if the hard disk in the machine is not the one that came with it, we're not supposed to work on it as warranty work, most of the time we let it go, and if it is a case where we have to send the unit to HP (processor replacement) we have to ask the customer to bring in the original hard disk, so we can swap it out before sending it.
post #148 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Yeah, they do, what was the point? Run Mac OS X on it? Ok, anyone have Mac OS X drivers for all those components? Will all those components talk to EFI? And why spend more money on this Gateway than an iMac then when the iMac clearly has better specs? A buddy of mine has hacked his HP to run OS X, he says it's neat and all but the performance isn't that great. His video support isn't great either since the card doesn't really have OS X drivers. Apple wants that quality control on the OS user experience.

I was responding to a post by bg_nyc in which the question was asked about the possibility of Dell or HP intentionally designing some of their future computers with the express purpose of being compatible with Mac OS X.

If you read my whole post, you'll notice that in the the very next phrase following the EFI reference, I actually did talk about the need for additional drivers for those additional components.

I went on to say that any "official" installation of Mac OS X on a Dell or HP (or <insert name here>) computer would legally and technically (TPM, anyone?) require cooperation by Apple.

I'll thank you not to misrepresent me or use my comments out of context.
post #149 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfmorrison View Post

I was responding to a post by bg_nyc in which the question was asked about the possibility of Dell or HP intentionally designing some of their future computers with the express purpose of being compatible with Mac OS X.

If you read my whole post, you'll notice that in the the very next phrase following the EFI reference, I actually did talk about the need for additional drivers for those additional components.

I went on to say that any "official" installation of Mac OS X on a Dell or HP (or <insert name here>) computer would legally and technically (TPM, anyone?) require cooperation by Apple.

I'll thank you not to misrepresent me or use my comments out of context.

I do apologize, I realized that after I posted.

Although technically the only thing keeping OS X from being installed on any PC is basically down to DRM on the OS and the requirement to flash the EFI, I don't ever see Apple liscensing the OS unless they themselves get out of the hardware business, they learned from that already, the OS experience was messed up due to the clone makers using hardware not completely supported. Apple is very protective of that user experience. The easiest way to protect that UI is to make sure they have complete control on what it runs on. A mismatched video card can destroy what they've worked hard to achieve.
post #150 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

So far, most of the iMac-alikes have failed or are just obscure. Windows PC buyers seem to just reject them. It seems like Apple customers are the only ones that buy this kind of thing.

As if we had a choice in the matter. Ya, Apple customers are the only ones that buy this kind of thing because...? DUH! That's all we have
post #151 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The hard drive is like the cell phone battery. Its going to take a long time before it fails. By that point most people will just buy a new one.

What exactly is the issue with hard drive replacement on the new iMacs? Hard to do? Practically impossible to without having some special Apple tool? Just a little tricky? Voids the warranty? What?

A hard drive failure isn't the only reason to want to get at the drive. In fact, if any other part of the computer failed and required service, the first thing I'd often want to do is get the drive out of the machine, get any important files off the drive and safely stored elsewhere, remove anything that might be a privacy issue (if not leave the drive out entirely and send the computer in for service driveless), and THEN take the computer in for service.
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
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post #152 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

This is where it beats the iMac hands down.
Only retarded people buy a computer which restricts you from replacing the hard drive in-house.

There are serious privacy and security implications to leaving your hard drive for days on a reseller's counter. Especially if your computer is being used for online purchases, small business accounting or credit card processing. The Canadian Privacy Commissioner should caution people against buying the iMac. Maybe then Jobs will get a clue.

While the Gateway's screen is too small, it shouldn't take long for a larger version to become available. While I'm extremely partial to the Mac OS, I would (sadly) counsel friends and family to buy this machine before buying a current iMac.

One word, my friend: "OS X."
post #153 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiah View Post

Are we sure this thing is an All In One?

That looks awfully like the base unit to me...


lol.

Also, how is the screen on when there is no power cable?
post #154 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinDrift View Post

lol.

Also, how is the screen on when there is no power cable?

Like a true All-in-One, this machine runs on "Apples"
Crentist?! That sounds an awful lot like *dentist.*
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Crentist?! That sounds an awful lot like *dentist.*
Maybe thats why he wanted to be a dentist!
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