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Limbaugh: Democrat Soldiers are "fake soldiers" - Page 3

post #81 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

my interests

Which are opposition to tort reform and what else...?

Quote:
and my values

Which are....? Rather than give you my impressions, I'll let you tell me...
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post #82 of 106
Although I have to say that the spirit of Fellows' "team" criticism does hold valid with you and perhaps forum-conduct in general. I'm not sure what your post has to do with anything besides being difficult. The spirit of my post was pro-partisanship under the circumstances of our current election laws. It has nothing to do with my particular values and interests except for the very general point that Democrats represent them more than Republicans. You can substitute your values and your interests without consequence to my main point, so if you'd like to respond in that capacity instead of whatever that response was trying to do, then be my guest.
post #83 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

You cannot possibly think your anti-"team" shtick has any resonance at this point. The "team" analogy was as witless and shallow a criticism of partisan politics then, the first several hundred times you used it, as it is now. You're damn right "Go Democrats" when our laws not our voting preferences necessarily set up a two-party system. Where one of those parties represents my interests and my values, it becomes very important that that party wins a majority of seats in both houses of Congress. Don't like how that game is played? Then start trying to change our voting laws to allow more than two major parties.

A few points... first.. you owe me $.28.

Perhaps you do not like the anti-"team" shtick but the reality is that yourself and others are holding it up as well. You are making it sound as if Media Matters, an organization that describes itself as "a web-based, not-for-profit, progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media." Media Matters for America defines "conservative misinformation" as "news or commentary presented in the media that is not accurate, reliable, or credible and that forwards the conservative agenda" is somehow to be trusted because it is above the "team" concept with regard to motivations.

I personally don't like it when people kill the messenger and I don't desire to do that to MM. However on the flip side, it is not appropriate for yourself or anyone to excuse their clearly suspect and wrong actions claiming there is lack of intent in them and thus it mitigates what clearly is wrong.

I noted that MM selectively quotes and when viewed in the context of the entire discussion, the true meaning of the people they have accused is clearly conveyed. In addition they do not make available the broader source from which they selectively quote when the internet clearly allows and encourages such behavior. We all understand that when you foot or endnote a paper, you can't turn in all your sources at the same time as that paper. However on the internet, you can link to the sources quite easily. Finally I stated that when selectively quoting they do not indicate breaks and the time that has passed between those breaks, instead making it appear to be a long and comprehensive quote when it is not.

Those problems cannot be dismissed due to "team" concerns. I'm not killing or dismissing MM because they are possibly not on my "team." I'm noting the messenger isn't telling us the whole message or is distorting the message.

Finally, does your team really represent your values? You condemn Neo-cons, but not the Pax Americana Dems who still enable, fund, and support the same philosophy. Your DNC president tossed up civil unions instead of gay marriage. All major candidates for office this year favor civil unions instead of marriage. Hillary accepts PAC money to enable her record fund raising.

Those are your values?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #84 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

A few points... first.. you owe me $.28.

Perhaps you do not like the anti-"team" shtick but the reality is that yourself and others are holding it up as well. You are making it sound as if Media Matters, an organization that describes itself as "a web-based, not-for-profit, progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media." Media Matters for America defines "conservative misinformation" as "news or commentary presented in the media that is not accurate, reliable, or credible and that forwards the conservative agenda" is somehow to be trusted because it is above the "team" concept with regard to motivations.

I don't immediately see how since I wasn't referring to Media Matters at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I personally don't like it when people kill the messenger and I don't desire to do that to MM. However on the flip side, it is not appropriate for yourself or anyone to excuse their clearly suspect and wrong actions claiming there is lack of intent in them and thus it mitigates what clearly is wrong.

Not sure what that means, but okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I noted that MM selectively quotes and when viewed in the context of the entire discussion, the true meaning of the people they have accused is clearly conveyed. In addition they do not make available the broader source from which they selectively quote when the internet clearly allows and encourages such behavior. We all understand that when you foot or endnote a paper, you can't turn in all your sources at the same time as that paper. However on the internet, you can link to the sources quite easily. Finally I stated that when selectively quoting they do not indicate breaks and the time that has passed between those breaks, instead making it appear to be a long and comprehensive quote when it is not.

Okay, I disagree, but I'm not really interested in a discussion on Media Matters at this point.

Pretty sure I didn't ask for one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Those problems cannot be dismissed due to "team" concerns. I'm not killing or dismissing MM because they are possibly not on my "team." I'm noting the messenger isn't telling us the whole message or is distorting the message.

Never claimed you were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Finally, does your team really represent your values? You condemn Neo-cons, but not the Pax Americana Dems who still enable, fund, and support the same philosophy. Your DNC president tossed up civil unions instead of gay marriage. All major candidates for office this year favor civil unions instead of marriage. Hillary accepts PAC money to enable her record fund raising.

Those are your values?

Nick

I can assure you, if I had to choose between the two broad groups of "Democrats" and "Republicans," the Democrats come closest to representing my values.
post #85 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

This little diversion sponsored by both Republicans and Democrats... and while valuable brain-space and public attention is wasted on this crap and the latest Britney news, the country is headed down the drain in an rapidly spinning spiral.

Not to mention the unsustainable budget models the nation faces going forward.

Why is it we do not hear the political leaders address real problems such as budgeting for the future? We instead have Democrats in leadership positions making an issue of Rush Limbaugh.

Fellows
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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #86 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

I don't immediately see how since I wasn't referring to Media Matters at all.

Perhaps you didn't attempt to kill the messenger in this thread, but it is a common tactic from you, to dismiss a source as biased due to it not being on your team, rather than based on the facts of the matter.

Quote:
Not sure what that means, but okay.

I think you do know what it means. You can't use a claim of supposed impartiality as proof that a wrong action didn't occur. The claim, a claim you repeated as well, is that Limbaugh was broadly talking about any soldier who was anti-war, when in reality he was dealing specifically with those who forge stories and credential to back them.

Did Media Matters distort the meaning of the speech by Limbaugh by engaging in selective quoting? You answer here will be telling since it seems you are avoiding the thread topic.

Quote:
Okay, I disagree, but I'm not really interested in a discussion on Media Matters at this point.

Pretty sure I didn't ask for one?

I really don't care what you want as the thread has a topic and Media Matters and their claims happen to be that topic.

Quote:
Never claimed you were.

Answer the question above and we will see. Dismissing the comments of others as "worthless" without saying why they are worthless still hints and the issues I addressed. I addressed the specific reason you think they are worthless, even if you won't express it yourself.

Quote:
I can assure you, if I had to choose between the two broad groups of "Democrats" and "Republicans," the Democrats come closest to representing my values.

Yes, but the Democratic "team" is keeping down the options that would allow a closer choice to your values.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #87 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Perhaps you didn't attempt to kill the messenger in this thread, but it is a common tactic from you, to dismiss a source as biased due to it not being on your team, rather than based on the facts of the matter.

I think you do know what it means. You can't use a claim of supposed impartiality as proof that a wrong action didn't occur. The claim, a claim you repeated as well, is that Limbaugh was broadly talking about any soldier who was anti-war, when in reality he was dealing specifically with those who forge stories and credential to back them.

Did Media Matters distort the meaning of the speech by Limbaugh by engaging in selective quoting? You answer here will be telling since it seems you are avoiding the thread topic.

I really don't care what you want as the thread has a topic and Media Matters and their claims happen to be that topic.

Answer the question above and we will see. Dismissing the comments of others as "worthless" without saying why they are worthless still hints and the issues I addressed. I addressed the specific reason you think they are worthless, even if you won't express it yourself.

Nick, I'm not sure who you're having this discussion with, but it's not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Yes, but the Democratic "team" is keeping down the options that would allow a closer choice to your values.

Okay, this actually responds to what I'm talking about. I agree in a sense--the parties certainly aren't interested in abandoning the two-party system. I think our voting laws should facilitate the formation of more than two major parties, instead of how it necessarily forms only two parties. Couldn't tell you what to do about it though.
post #88 of 106
Did Media Matters distort the meaning of the speech by Limbaugh by engaging in selective quoting?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #89 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Although I have to say that the spirit of Fellows' "team" criticism does hold valid with you and perhaps forum-conduct in general. I'm not sure what your post has to do with anything besides being difficult. The spirit of my post was pro-partisanship under the circumstances of our current election laws. It has nothing to do with my particular values and interests except for the very general point that Democrats represent them more than Republicans. You can substitute your values and your interests without consequence to my main point, so if you'd like to respond in that capacity instead of whatever that response was trying to do, then be my guest.

My questions are entirely OT... if we are discussing political values and interests therein represented, the question of perspective is very relevant. Be assured that my intent is not to be difficult, rather to begin the discussion of how our parties' candidates/platform are or are not representing our values/interests our current system. Specifically, I was trying to get at what you feel like your "party" is not doing for you, because I can tell you about 50 things that "mine" is not doing for me.

Hillary is never leaving Iraq. Neither is Rudy. Neither is anyone. There is no party that will simply "come home" from Iraq upon election. Not going to happen. Those who want that are going to have to hold their nose and vote for someone who will ultimately do very little to stop what is happening. Kucinich and Paul are too far behind to make that happen.

I agree with your idea that our two-party system does not represent the nuance of our landscape.
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post #90 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

My questions are entirely OT... if we are discussing political values and interests therein represented, the question of perspective is very relevant. Be assured that my intent is not to be difficult, rather to begin the discussion of how our parties' candidates/platform are or are not representing our values/interests our current system. Specifically, I was trying to get at what you feel like your "party" is not doing for you, because I can tell you about 50 things that "mine" is not doing for me.

Hillary is never leaving Iraq. Neither is Rudy. Neither is anyone. There is no party that will simply "come home" from Iraq upon election. Not going to happen. Those who want that are going to have to hold their nose and vote for someone who will ultimately do very little to stop what is happening. Kucinich and Paul are too far behind to make that happen.

I agree with your idea that our two-party system does not represent the nuance of our landscape.

Ah, well said. Agreed.
post #91 of 106
Gravel 2008!

Quote:
RAY SUAREZ: A lot of the time you've spent with the other Democratic candidates debating around the country has been arguing about what to do about Iraq. What would you do?

MIKE GRAVEL: Get out. Get out as soon as possible so that we can begin a diplomatic effort. And I could get the troops out in 120 days. Never mind this year stuff, or two years, or four years.

The people who say we should stay there, they want to continue to control the oil. I wouldn't spend one ounce of American blood for any amount of oil coming out of Iraq. We're using our treasure to get control of the Titanic. We should be getting off of oil.

As president, I will get us off of gasoline in five years and off of carbon in 10 years. All it takes is some serious leadership to want to do that. Now, how we get out besides that? Put them on airplanes. Like I say, get them out in 120 days.

Sigh...
post #92 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Gravel 2008!



Sigh...

I know. But the corporations don't have a hold on him so there's no way. He's got the same shot that RP has; virtually nil.
post #93 of 106
Quote:
MIKE GRAVEL: As president, I will get us off of gasoline in five years and off of carbon in 10 years.



This guy it totally delusional... and the most insane part is that people, at least 4 or 5, actually BELIEVE that he means it, and BELIEVE that he can do it.

I love Mike Gravel. The left may have found their Alan Keyes.

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post #94 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsider View Post

I know. But the corporations don't have a hold on him so there's no way. He's got the same shot that RP has; virtually nil.

It is sad. As these two asshats brag about how much money they laundered-er-raised, the one lone man who speaks reason left to bankruptcy because no one will listen to him.
post #95 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post



This guy it totally delusional... and the most insane part is that people, at least 4 or 5, actually BELIEVE that he means it, and BELIEVE that he can do it.

I love Mike Gravel. The left may have found their Alan Keyes.


There were presidents in American history that could say things like this and get them done. Those days are lost pal. There is not a single candidate in this race that is thinking of you or the rest of America. Only money, power and greed are their motivations.

Comparing Gravel to Keyes is idiotic and ignorant to say the least. Look back at Gravel's record as U.S. Senator. Get a clue.
post #96 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Ah, well said. Agreed.

Some people know how to duck and weave well enough to run for office.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #97 of 106
Cool!
post #98 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

So we've gone from Media Matters being a scurrilous den of lies to complaining that they "take themselves seriously" and that they try to "pass themselves off as being fair"?

Since they don't have anything like that on the masthead, I assume that you think that their format indicates an interest in taking things seriously and being fair, while simply disallowing the possibility that a partisan organization could do either.

Of course, since you think that Fox's "fair and balanced" is something more than black humor, it's perfectly understandable how you might have developed some cynicism around the concept.

I don't know about a scurrilous den of lies. I do know that their political agenda causes them to track conservatives and only conservatives, take their statements out of context, and ignore ALL similar "offenses" by liberals. They also will portray conservatives in the worst of all possible lights.

And as for the way they present themselves: They trumpet the fact that they are "non-profit" as if it's a virtue. They do disclose they track conservative media only....though I'm not sure that helps your argument.

As for Limbaugh, again...he's an entertainer. He doesn't even present himself as seriously as MM does:

Quote:
Media Matters for America is a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media.

Launched in May 2004, Media Matters for America put in place, for the first time, the means to systematically monitor a cross section of print, broadcast, cable, radio, and Internet media outlets for conservative misinformation news or commentary that is not accurate, reliable, or credible and that forwards the conservative agenda every day, in real time.

Using the website www.mediamatters.org as the principal vehicle for disseminating research and information, Media Matters posts rapid-response items as well as longer research and analytic reports documenting conservative misinformation throughout the media. Additionally, Media Matters works daily to notify activists, journalists, pundits, and the general public about instances of misinformation, providing them with the resources to rebut false claims and to take direct action against offending media institutions.



Limbaugh:
Quote:
The Rush Limbaugh Show is the most listened to radio talk show in America, broadcast on over 600 radio stations nationwide. It is hosted by America's Anchorman, Rush Limbaugh, also known as: America's Truth Detector; the Doctor of Democracy; the Most Dangerous Man in America; the All-Knowing, All-Sensing, All-Everything Maha Rushie; defender of motherhood, protector of fatherhood and an all-around good guy.

There is a "consensus" among the American people, who have made this the most listened to program, that it is also the most accurate, most right, and most correct.
People who disagree with this are Rush Deniers.

Now tell me that's the same type of thing, adda.

We can debate Fox News some other time if you like. I don't see what that has to do with this disussion.
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post #99 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsider View Post

I know. But the corporations don't have a hold on him so there's no way. He's got the same shot that RP has; virtually nil.

I don't remember Gravel raising $5 million this last quarter. Ron is moving up in recognition and finances. Not a bad position to be in.

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post #100 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Comparing Gravel to Keyes is idiotic and ignorant to say the least. Look back at Gravel's record as U.S. Senator. Get a clue.

An uncharacteristic-as-of-late comment from you, artman... Both Keyes and Gravel are on the fringes of their respective sides, have a history of education achievement and government service, and both have at least one or two very valid points that might just help the country. Oh, and no one cares much about what either of them say.

By and large... <cue cuckoo clocks>
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post #101 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

An uncharacteristic-as-of-late comment from you, artman... Both Keyes and Gravel are on the fringes of their respective sides, have a history of education achievement and government service, and both have at least one or two very valid points that might just help the country. Oh, and no one cares much about what either of them say.

By and large... <cue cuckoo clocks>

Compared to what; a cross-dressing crook, a Mormon nut-job, has-been actor, garden gnome, cackling witch, "articulate" rookie, Mr. Peepers or ambulance chaser?
post #102 of 106

I hope you are always here, Artman... that was funny.

It really is astounding what they serve up to us, isn't it?
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post #103 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

I hope you are always here, Artman... that was funny.

I know, and I'm just waking up...

Quote:
It really is astounding what they serve up to us, isn't it?

Read this and weep...
post #104 of 106

I don't get the Mr. Peepers reference, but I got a good laugh anyway.

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post #105 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I don't get the Mr. Peepers reference, but I got a good laugh anyway.



and



not

post #106 of 106
I still don't see the connection, but I do like those pictures. Heh.

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