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Why are people so angry about the update?

post #1 of 99
Thread Starter 
I sincerely do not understand the outcry, even from those with bricked phones. They knew that it was dangerous and that, at the very least it would void their warranty. Many even sung the praises and used an app called iBricker. What did you expect?

As for those who only downloaded a hack of a software installer, what were you thinking? You know Apple has not put out an SDK. So you are voiding your warranty and perhaps the use of your phone to a command line geek who could care less about what it does to your phone.

On top of all that, Apple warned you about modifying your phone. They saw that their update would cause problems for some of the unauthorized hacks and told you that the update was coming and that it would likely break your hacked iPhone. Apple was not trying to brick any iPhones. The last thing they want is a mob of angry people showing potential buyers how fragile the iPhone is. Instead of taking heed, people said things like "Oh, Apple wouldn't dare release an update that would do injury to a modified phone."

Now, I'm not suggesting you did anything illegal, just stupid. If you mess with your firmware in your computer so that it will not turn on, or open an iMac case because you want a better graphics card, or you just want to overclock your system, no problem. But when your computer does not work any more, or a software update breaks your modified system, you have only yourself to blame. The reason you have to back up your data before sending it in to Apple Care is because they will likely restore the system to factory settings. If it works the way it should, then it is your problem, not theirs. Send a warranty voided, obviously modified system to Apple and they won't even look at it. This is true with all products. Why should Apple be any different?

Bottom line. You bought the phone and it worked beautifully. But you wanted it to do even more. You wanted to turn it into something it was not. From the first moment you put home baked software on you phone, you voided your warranty. Apple tried to warn you but you didn't listen. I understand why you are sad about the ill health of your phone. What I don't understand is why you are angry at Apple.

I am not flame bating. I genuinely want to know why you think that your bricked phone is Apple's fault.
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post #2 of 99
I think people were so taken with the iPhone and seem to love them so much they just wanted to make them even better by adding software that Apple did not provide. The other thing too is that many power users are used to changing their phone and/or computers and figured they could do the same thing with the iPhone. Now the people who unlocked the phones are in a somewhat different group, since they know that the iPhone is supposed to only be used with At&T. I don't feel as bad for that later group but I do feel bad for the people who just added software. Apple should have taken a different tack with this whole situation.
post #3 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by imacFP View Post

I think people were so taken with the iPhone and seem to love them so much they just wanted to make them even better by adding software that Apple did not provide. The other thing too is that many power users are used to changing their phone and/or computers and figured they could do the same thing with the iPhone. Now the people who unlocked the phones are in a somewhat different group, since they know that the iPhone is supposed to only be used with At&T. I don't feel as bad for that later group but I do feel bad for the people who just added software. Apple should have taken a different tack with this whole situation.

For the former group, that just added software, they can downgrade and be where they were. That's IMO the best course for now. Keep what you already liked and see where this all shakes out. If you added software (without the SIM unlock) then you likely have the skills to downgrade - its not really very hard.
post #4 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

For the former group, that just added software, they can downgrade and be where they were. That's IMO the best course for now. Keep what you already liked and see where this all shakes out. If you added software (without the SIM unlock) then you likely have the skills to downgrade - its not really very hard.

I am part of the group of people that only added software and not "unlocked" the phone,
I am also part of a group that is scared to try any more "hacks" for fear of what apple has done in this last "down grade" that if I try to revert to 1.0.2 it might brick the phone and that is not an risk I am going to take.

Also I has a lot of custom ringtones that I made from old system sounds back in days of OS 7.
and now I can't use them.

I just think that apple has too tight of a grip on the OS of the phone and needs to lighten up.
post #5 of 99
Much of the outcry stems from sudden changes in Apple policies and the now dangerously uncertain corporate/consumer relationship. Apple is alienating much of their fan base by intentionally blocking advancements. (How about a world without podcasts, anyone?) They are expanding their power from owning all things Apple, to controlling all things Apple and users don't want to give up that power. Looking back, the signs are obvious (e.g. "Made for iPod" marketing ploy). Unfortunately, our power over the products we buy is dwindling away one by one. I personally do not like the road we are headed down and see no resolution to this problem without humiliation and serious backlash against Apple. I like this company and am a Apple fan, but they are making wrong choices hand over fist since working with AT&T. The only certainty from this alliance is that it will either hurt Apple or its costomers.
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post #6 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by KG4MXV View Post

I am part of the group of people that only added software and not "unlocked" the phone,
I am also part of a group that is scared to try any more "hacks" for fear of what apple has done in this last "down grade" that if I try to revert to 1.0.2 it might brick the phone and that is not an risk I am going to take.

Also I has a lot of custom ringtones that I made from old system sounds back in days of OS 7.
and now I can't use them.

I just think that apple has too tight of a grip on the OS of the phone and needs to lighten up.

While I'm not going to take the responsibility of recommending to you to downgrade, as that's your choice, I will say that, after doing it, the tools that Apple provides for recovering the phone (again, as long as you haven't touched the firmware by unlocking the SIM) seem reasonably capable.

I following the 'Slightly Easier' instructions here. I did 'seem' to brick the iphone the first time so I simply redid it again. The trick is to use the 'home-power' button followed by holding the 'home' button to put it in restore mode. I never used a stopwatch and didn't find the timing all that exacting (as they imply). This hardware reset seems to put the phone back in restore mode even if non-responsive (one time for me at least).

I did use AppTap to jailbreak the phone so I can't comment if that is important. It's certainly easy to use in the downgrade process. I'm fully back to 1.0.2 with all the 3rd party apps I had before.

Also looks like going to iTunes 7.3.2 makes it even easier.
post #7 of 99
Thread Starter 
Can't get this post to come out right.

I do not see the difference in jailbreaking your phone for adding app and or adding other carriers. There are probably good reasons that Apple has not released an SDK. Perhaps they didn't want to put out an SDK that would force them to support it and slow the progression of new features they would like to add.

And everyone still seems to be forgetting that Apple gave fair waning. Their products have always been closed and there are always people trying to unlock them. The only thing Apple did differently in this case is that they gave plenty of warning before they pushed out the update.
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post #8 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Voyer View Post

Can't get this post to come out right.

I do not see the difference in jailbreaking your phone for adding app and or adding other carriers. There are probably good reasons that Apple has not released an SDK. Perhaps they didn't want to put out an SDK that would force them to support it and slow the progression of new features they would like to add.

And everyone still seems to be forgetting that Apple gave fair waning. Their products have always been closed and there are always people trying to unlock them. The only thing Apple did differently in this case is that they gave plenty of warning before they pushed out the update.

Well, for one when jailbreaking for apps your only breaking one license, the one with Apple, when modifiying the SIM your breaking two - one with apple for the jailbreaking and one with AT&T for the carrier access.

On the more important practical level on the first your only modifying the 'OS X' software, not the firmware on the SIM. This is far easier to recover from.

I've done the former, not the latter. By doing the former I fully understand that Apple is not responsible for fixing this.

The amazing contradiction to me is in breaking the SIM. Except for a few areas in the country (and they are few by population) where there are small GSM operators, there is only T-Mobile to go to, from AT&T. Not much better and no cheaper. So, the only motivation for breaking the SIM is to sell it overseas (and yes I travel overseas quite a bit and the main thing I need from my phone is my phone number so SIM hacking makes no sense). So the contradiction is

1) I have to break the SIM so I can have an iPhone NOW
2) The iPhone has far too few features to interest users outside the poor, mobile backward US.

hmmmmm.
post #9 of 99
First Apple sets a higher expectation from the customer base by delivering on the hype. They *must* at least live up to it.

Besides, they are a computer manufacturer with both hardware, OS, and software which means their expertise in computer devices are superb. Mac anyone ?. Of course!. Do why do they think the cellphone buying public is as dumb as the average consumer electronics buyer ?. Nope, these are the same customers who buys Macs and higher-end PCs. So there is an expectation of what the hardware can do. Besides, do you see much slowness or stumbling of the UI in the iPhones like in most Nokias and SE phone ?. Nope. Fluid as it can be on the iPhone, so processing power and system balance is great like on a Mac.

And come on. From OS footprint of 95MB image vs 150Mb image from 1.0.2 to 1.1.1. More than 50% more code, just to deliver a handfull of features ???.
Ask any developer. There is something sinister lurking in there for sure.
And was the "bricking" deliberate ?. Hell Ya!

I hope they fix this "weakness" by Xmas or else they can kiss goodbye to that 10M units they are aiming for.
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post #10 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nano2Gfteo View Post

First Apple sets a higher expectation from the customer base by delivering on the hype. They *must* at least live up to it.

Besides, they are a computer manufacturer with both hardware, OS, and software which means their expertise in computer devices are superb. Mac anyone ?. Of course!. Do why do they think the cellphone buying public is as dumb as the average consumer electronics buyer ?. Nope, these are the same customers who buys Macs and higher-end PCs. So there is an expectation of what the hardware can do. Besides, do you see much slowness or stumbling of the UI in the iPhones like in most Nokias and SE phone ?. Nope. Fluid as it can be on the iPhone, so processing power and system balance is great like on a Mac.

And come on. From OS footprint of 95MB image vs 150Mb image from 1.0.2 to 1.1.1. More than 50% more code, just to deliver a handfull of features ???.
Ask any developer. There is something sinister lurking in there for sure.
And was the "bricking" deliberate ?. Hell Ya!

I hope they fix this "weakness" by Xmas or else they can kiss goodbye to that 10M units they are aiming for.

Sorry but a total load of BS. IF Apple wanted to intentionally brick the phone it wouldn't take 50+ MB of code. A deliberate brick would only be a few (100's maybe) lines of code. They've locked the phone tighter by simply changing the communications protocol with iTunes (putting more on the iPhone and less in iTunes) and making the decrypt key harder to find. Again hardly 50 MB of code.

The code increase is likely due to adding things under the hood like TV out (which if it was actually missing from the original releases instead of just turned off would take a few MB). The iTMS store app also added a few MB. etc. Don't get all paranoid.
post #11 of 99
The only people miffed by all of this are those who don't bother to adhere to a contract that they themselves signed, so as far as I'm concerned, brick 'em all and next time don't waste the time and energy and money warning the idiots. Apple can live with news reports about people stupid enough to break a contract and then make a fuss about it when things don't work out too well.

These "people" are miffed about what has happened to them, but the majority are the ones who never did anything to their phones and who suffer because Apple has to waste resources dealing with selfish, immature and boisterous jerks rather than creating good products.

Everybody loses.

 

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You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #12 of 99
Quote:
Why are people so angry about the update?

Immaturity, pure and simple.
post #13 of 99
Or, they could just release an SDK and have wonderful little apps that delight us on our iphone.

Like a .mac chat client which should have been there from the start. I have this now on an app tapped iPhone. It's called Apollo.

Or, a wonderful little app called navizon which integrates cell towers and wifi nodes to tell you where you are without the use of gps. It handily integrates into google maps and makes the experience that much better.

I can even play tetris now on the little bugger.

I would gladly trade the existing itunes wifi store for the ability to use these apps as I can still get my itunes music from my laptop when I get home.

I am not whining, I feel that there is so much potential in this product that to lock it down tightly will be detrimental to the user community and Apple in general.

Think Different.
post #14 of 99
As a hacked (for 3rd party apps, not SIM unlocking) iPhone owner, Im bummed about the recent turn of events. (I havent upgraded to 1.1.1 yet). As someone who has owned every smartphone ever made, the iPhone is still leaps and bounds better than the competition (with or without the hacks). So Im still a happy iPhone owner.

Still, though, I wish Apple would issue a statement explaining why the 3rd party apps are so bad. I completely understand why they dont want people unlocking the SIM to other carriers and concur with their right (which they are probably contractually obligated to exercise) to block the SIM unlocking.

Can you imagine how quickly Palm would have died if they allowed no add-on applications?

If Apple were selling/licensing it's own applications, I could see them not wanting the free-bees out there. But they aren't.

Why put the "full" OSX on the phone if you only allow web-based applications?

Can you imagine how quickly the Treo would have died if they allowed no add-on applications?
post #15 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by TednDi View Post

I am not whining, I feel that there is so much potential in this product that to lock it down tightly will be detrimental to the user community and Apple in general.

Locked down tightly? What the hell are you talking about? iPhone development isn't "locked" down whatsoever. Apple simply hasn't released a public SDK yet. The most likely reason is that the APIs are still in flux

You claim not to be whining but then use loaded terms like "locked" that are a clear indication of your perception of the situation. You and many others obviously feel wronged, that apple has done something unfair. In my opinion, it is an immature or naive position to take.

Going public with incomplete and rapidly evolving APIs would lead to unstable upgrades and a public relations nightmare. 3rd party apps (hacks) currently rely on the unpublished APIs and hence, break as expected when apple releases an update. The same won't be true when the APIs are finished and relatively static. Many, and perhaps even most, seasoned developers belive that a public SDK and public APIs will released at that point.
post #16 of 99
Thread Starter 
I am not a programmer, but it is my understanding that no new product releases an SDK right away. The iPhone is not just another smartphone, it is a paradigm shift in how we think about phones. Give them a little time to figure out the best way to introduce 3rd party apps, or take your chances with iBricker. By the way, CPU and GPU overclockers do something similar. Many have burned out their expensive components. But I cannot recall an outcry against the manufacturer for risks they freely took. Here's an article I ran accross that some of you might find enlightening. I still haven't seen anyone address the fact that Apple gave fair warning. It leads me to the same conclusion of the writer of the article below. Enjoy.

http://www.surfbits.com/?p=1313
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post #17 of 99
The bigger problem is that Apple is being secretive, as they always are, but in this case it is working against them. If they'd just been up front and said the SDK is not ready yet, but will be out in a few months, they would be fine now. It's still possible a SDK will never come, but I think they'll be forced to do it regardless. Apple needs to start talking and explain exactly what they are planning. At&T supports development on all their phones except the iPhone and aren't able to give a good reason why Apple doesn't when asked.
post #18 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Locked down tightly? What the hell are you talking about? iPhone development isn't "locked" down whatsoever. Apple simply hasn't released a public SDK yet. The most likely reason is that the APIs are still in flux

You claim not to be whining but then use loaded terms like "locked" that are a clear indication of your perception of the situation. You and many others obviously feel wronged, that apple has done something unfair. In my opinion, it is an immature or naive position to take.

Going public with incomplete and rapidly evolving APIs would lead to unstable upgrades and a public relations nightmare. 3rd party apps (hacks) currently rely on the unpublished APIs and hence, break as expected when apple releases an update. The same won't be true when the APIs are finished and relatively static. Many, and perhaps even most, seasoned developers belive that a public SDK and public APIs will released at that point.


Don't tase me bro!

The phone is locked. Locked= For use on ATT only and Locked= no 3rd party apps. Simple.

You can call it what you want, but the phone is still locked out to anyone but apple.

Your argument for not issuing a SDK is also somewhat flawed. Apple has a history of issuing unstable upgrades. That is why these boards are filled with upgrade yet or not threads. They could have released and updated the SDK and started an iphone app certification process. They did not. The latest upgrade thankfully did not hose my iphone. But, that was a risk I was willing to take as was the conscious step in purposefully voiding my warrantee.

If I choose to wipe OS X off of my computer and run Linux or Win XP is that breaking my computer? If I modify the icons in OS X is that breaking my computer, If I install Doom on my mac is that breaking my computer? I say no. I bought the hardware and licensed the software. I am contractually bound to pay ATT for 2 years. The only gripe that I have is that the platform is much richer with a robust community of 3rd party apps and iPhone developers.

If making that observation is whining then so be it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkMkGOpAF4s


post #19 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by TednDi View Post

Don't tase me bro!

The phone is locked. Locked= For use on ATT only and Locked= no 3rd party apps. Simple.

You can call it what you want, but the phone is still locked out to anyone but apple.

It is a Apple device so what's the problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TednDi View Post

Your argument for not issuing a SDK is also somewhat flawed. Apple has a history of issuing unstable upgrades. That is why these boards are filled with upgrade yet or not threads. They could have released and updated the SDK and started an iphone app certification process. They did not. The latest upgrade thankfully did not hose my iphone. But, that was a risk I was willing to take as was the conscious step in purposefully voiding my warrantee.

If I choose to wipe OS X off of my computer and run Linux or Win XP is that breaking my computer? If I modify the icons in OS X is that breaking my computer, If I install Doom on my mac is that breaking my computer? I say no. I bought the hardware and licensed the software. I am contractually bound to pay ATT for 2 years. The only gripe that I have is that the platform is much richer with a robust community of 3rd party apps and iPhone developers.

If making that observation is whining then so be it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkMkGOpAF4s



When you purchased your Mac did you sign an agreement that said you can't do any of the above? NO!!!!!!!!!!!! But you did with the iPhone.... you are talking Apples and Orange's
post #20 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo-xl View Post

It is a Apple device so what's the problem?



When you purchased your Mac did you sign an agreement that said you can't do any of the above? NO!!!!!!!!!!!! But you did with the iPhone.... you are talking Apples and Orange's

Um, I thought I was talking Apples and IPhones.

And, frankly after reading the Software License agreement I haven't done anything of the sort either.

Did you read the Software License agreement?

http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/iphone.pdf
post #21 of 99
post #22 of 99
Except as and only to the extent permitted by applicable law, or by licensing terms governing use of open-sourced components included with the iPhone Software, you may not copy, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, attempt to derive the source code of, modify, or create derivative works of the iPhone Software, iPhone Software Updates, or any part thereof. Any attempt to do so is a violation of the rights of Apple and its licensors of the iPhone Software and iPhone Software Updates.
post #23 of 99
Thank you Taskiss!
post #24 of 99
Apple originated from tinkerors. Heck, tinkering is a fundamental part of most computer companies. It is how engineers think, work, live, and relax. We know for a fact the iPod has untapped potential. By what we have seen, there is a great deal of it. But this last update had, for lack of a better word, personality. It was not just a "woops. Apps don't work." kind of update, it was a malicious "Don't fuck with me, buddy!". That letter from Apple could even sound premeditated.

Who here is content to sit by and accept the rules of known artificial limitations determined by none other than corporate greed? Who wants progressive software; enabling or unlocking new, exciting features in the future? Who is certain Apple programmers will think of everything users want. 3rd party apps gave us control, freedom, and hope of incredible sums.

There is nothing wrong with wanting the full potential value out of a product. However, contracts are a way to keep users submissive and under control. Without representation, we are useless in our grievances. TednDi, may I ask why you accepted the contract if you have such remorse from it? You, of course, fought it the slightest bit, right? I have a inkling that if everyone in the US voiced their opinion of contracts for 24 hours, there would be come major changes in a matter of days.

Now, I love Apple products and it actually depresses me to write this crap, so I will get off their backs for a while. What crossed my mind last night, and I have not seen this posted anywhere, has top do with AT&T. I received a call last night and it was unusually crappy. I was a sound board operator for several years and the voice on the other end was at times unidentifiable due to audio compression artifacts. Are they squeezing as much bandwidth as possible out of this turnip? I am wondering if cell phone networks ran into some sort of problem and can not keep up with demand. It would certainly make sense if AT&T were reaching 95% of their bandwidth at peak hours without any 3rd party apps on iPhones. I almost get the feeling they are walking a tightrope and their margin for errors is dangerously small. If Jobs knows this, he certainly wouldn't say anything as that would destabilize an allied company, but it might also explain why they actively prohibit 3rd party apps to save bandwidth. Could there be a read motive besides greed behind Apple/AT&T's actions?

(BTW... Nothing personal. I just got burned by a contract and have had serious rant brewing for roughly a week. This is just the kettle's whistle. )
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post #25 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

use of open-sourced components included with the iPhone Software

hmm? what could those be?
post #26 of 99
If it means all that much to people, they should go buy an iPhone, return it unopened before 14 days are up with a letter that they would have kept it except for *fill in your favorite rant here* and get their money back. Wash, rinse, repeat.

OR, they can post anonymously on an internet forum and become as irritating as fingernails scraping down a blackboard to people who can't do a thing about their foolish desire to have a company cater to them.
post #27 of 99
Under all US law, everyone has the right to breach a contract.

They also subject themselves to the penalties of the breach including voided warrantee.

I love my iphone. I love my 3rd party apps. I would love to use them with 1.1.1 but I can't.

In my opinion and I am reasonably sure that many would agree, the phone is better with the addition of 3rd party apps than without.

Many of the arguments for keeping the iphone closed can be boiled down to "we will take whatever apple gives us and be happy"

Think Different

It is ironic that Steve J. is such a defender of a locked phone tied to AT&T after his first career being a phone phreaker.

http://www.telephonetribute.com/phonephreaking.html
post #28 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by TednDi View Post

Don't tase me bro!
...
If making that observation is whining then so be it.

lol, Somehow i'll probably remember that "don't taze me bro" line for the rest of my life.

But yes, you're whining. You keep bending truths to make your complaint seem more justified. Apple has not locked out third party development. They simply don't support it. There is an absolutely huge difference between "locking out" and "not supporting". It seems that you're so upset that you're incapable of seeing the difference.

You may say that there is effectively no difference to customers. But there obviously is. If apple wanted to truly lock out 3rd party development they could.
post #29 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

lol, Somehow i'll probably remember that "don't taze me bro" line for the rest of my life.

I do my part


Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

But yes, you're whining. You keep bending truths to make your complaint seem more justified.

Am I bending a truth or seeing something differently?

"Innovation is the distinction between a leader and a follower." - Steve Jobs


Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Apple has not locked out third party development. They simply don't support it. There is an absolutely huge difference between "locking out" and "not supporting".

You are right, then why disparage me when I choose to get the feature set that I want with the hardware that I have?


Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

It seems that you're so upset that you're incapable of seeing the difference.

I am actually not that all upset. Tone does not translate well into text. I do see the difference however, it is just that I choose to something about it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

You may say that there is no effective difference to customers. But there obviously is. If apple wanted to truly lock out 3rd party development they could.

Agreed. And that would suck even more.



Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Put simply: You might have to wait for application updates before updating an operating system. This is true for any software platform. But it is especially true for a brand new one in great flux from ongoing internal development.

Yup, and the new application was? iTMS wifi store = great app

My argument was that I would trade that app and the added functionality that is in 1.1.1 for the expanded functionality which I receive by the use of existing 3rd party apps that I now have on my iPhone. If the developer community was able to get a reliable voip solution working would your jailbreak your iphone?
post #30 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by TednDi View Post

Yup, and the new application was? iTMS wifi store = great app

My argument was that I would trade that app and the added functionality that is in 1.1.1 for the expanded functionality which I receive by the use of existing 3rd party apps that I now have on my iPhone. If the developer community was able to get a reliable voip solution working would your jailbreak your iphone?

That isn't what I was getting at.

If you install hacks (3rd party apps), you'll likely have to update those apps in conjunction with operating system upgrades. The iPhone is no different than any other OS in this regard. The thing that is different is that the iPhone is a new platform and hacking it means trying to hit a moving target.

Will I install 3rd party apps? Definately yes. But I will wait until the platform's APIs have been finalized so that operating system upgrades can be applied without hassle.

There is nothing wrong with hacking an iPhone. However, it is immature to claim hostile intent on apple's part when all they're actually doing is busting their ass to rapidly improve the iPhone. You're trying to hack a moving target not one that has been made purposefully hard to hack.

Would you prefer they halt iPhone development and never finalize the APIs? Honestly, I don't know how Apple could satisfy all the whiners. If they supported 3rd party development this early in the game, they would have had to delay the iPhone's release or continue to support multiple versions of the APIs for the rest of eternity. So either the iPhone would not be out yet or we'd be saddled with a sloppy platform and tons of legacy/swiss-cheese code. Three months in, Apple would already have to support multiple versions of everything. I for one am glad that apple hasn't gone that route. I prefer my phone to glitch and crash free.
post #31 of 99
I on the other hand am willing to run beta code and deal with the instability to further the knowledge base.

I do however think that apple will release an sdk for the iphone with leopard. I am hoping that they will not wait until WWDC 08 for it to get out the door.

The cell phone biz is on a much tighter turn around time than the computer OS biz. I want apple to remain competitive and a market leader.

Sony went down the locked up road and it cost them.
post #32 of 99
Here is an excellent interview with the founder of Ambrosia Software that I think adequately sums up the arguments for and against along with the frustration.

http://www.tuaw.com/2007/10/03/tuaw-...ne-update-and/
post #33 of 99
Thanks, one of the better commentaries i've read. I don't agree with everything he says but he managed to be rational and factual despite being so close to the issue.

His software is one of just a couple of programs that was broken by Apple in an actual attempt to "lock" something down. At least that's the way it appears without having access to the code. Most other complaints seem completely unfounded and more like data structure and API changes.

Apple, as expressed by Jobs' open letter to the music industry, would prefer to have a completely DRM-less system. For now it appears that they've caved to the demands of the record labels and are making it at least rudimentarily difficult to circumvent the DRM system on ringtones. I would agree that this constitutes "locking" but it shouldn't be conflated with Apple's lack of support for native 3rd party apps.

One thing left out of the Ambrosia interview is that of the iPhone being a new platform and how that affects the choice of whether or not to support 3rd party development at this time. He assumes that the current situation is considered optimal by Apple and that Apple doesn't intend to release a public SDK. That apple is keeping the iPhone closed because they think they can provide all the functionality needed.

He may very well be right, but I doubt it. I believe the truth is somewhere in between. In my opinion, Apple intends to restrict development more than for their desktop OS. However they also probably intend on releasing an SDK after interface guidelines have worked themselves out and APIs finalized.
post #34 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

The only people miffed by all of this are those who don't bother to adhere to a contract that they themselves signed, so as far as I'm concerned, brick 'em all and next time don't waste the time and energy and money warning the idiots.

I can only half agree with what you have to say. People taking risks with unofficial software hacks shouldn't be surprised when things go wrong, and should accept that a lot of the grief they suffer is their fault, but actually cheering along and advocating intentional bricking? Because anyone who violates a EULA "deserves" whatever they get?

The bargaining power on the terms of nearly any EULA is very lopsided, and I can hardly blame consumers for wanting better than "take it or leave it" as the only options. The market simply doesn't supply great alternatives all of the time -- just lots of other products with their own major limitations and restrictive terms.

Have you noticed new initiatives, like iTunes Plus and Amazon's new MP3 store, for selling DRM-free music? Do you think this would be happening if all consumers just rolled over and played dead for the big corporations, dutifully following all EULA-imposed restrictions like good, obedient little consumers? If everyone went along with your attitude of treating EULAs like sacred honor-bound blood oaths, I'm pretty sure we'd be choking under heavy-handed, pay-per-play, pay-per-platform, pay-per-device, pay-per-application DRM on most of our music, video, and software.

Want to play that song you bought on CD on your iPod? Okay... pay for it again.

Want to use that song you bought online as a ringtone? Okay... pay for it again. (They still get away with that one.)

Want to use that song you bought three times already, once on CD, once for your iPod, and once for a ringtone, to wake you up in the morning? Great! Please fork over the alarm-use fee, and you'll be all set!

Oh, you want to listen over wireless headphones instead of wired headphones? No problem... just pay us the "short-range broadcast fee" and we'll activate that "feature" for you.
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Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #35 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

IThe bargaining power on the terms of nearly any EULA is very lopsided

It sure is. The consumer doesn't have to accept the terms at all, and no matter what terms the company wants to impose, there are local and national laws that limit what it can do.

The consumer is totally in control - he or she can simply refuse to purchase the device.

If you don't like what the iPod does, don't buy it. Same goes for the iPhone. Freaking grow up and realize that your wants and desires empower you and impose no stipulation on the behavior of any company, Apple included.
post #36 of 99
Supply and Demand.... If we the public demand a product that can be manufactured.... Someone will make it and sell it. This is what makes the retail market work.....
post #37 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

It sure is. The consumer doesn't have to accept the terms at all, and no matter what terms the company wants to impose, there are local and national laws that limit what it can do.

The consumer is totally in control - he or she can simply refuse to purchase the device.

If you don't like what the iPod does, don't buy it. Same goes for the iPhone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo-xl View Post

Supply and Demand.... If we the public demand a product that can be manufactured.... Someone will make it and sell it. This is what makes the retail market work.....

It's one thing to disagree with what I wrote, and another to respond as if you only half read what I said. I already addressed the issue of simple buy/don't buy choices, yet you both bring that up again as if it's going to be news to me.

"If you don't like it, don't buy it" is an incredibly blunt, and not always greatly effective, instrument for effecting change.

When you have a product like the iPod, and even more so the iPhone, which can only be effectively produced and marketed by a small number of large companies, those companies don't have to be very responsive to consumer desires. Monopolistic (or effectively so) powers, plus lopsided intellectual property and telecommunications laws, mean that a whole industry can easily band together and not give people what they want, but rather "just enough" to keep them buying under less-than-wonderful terms, because the only other options are to do without a given product entirely, with no one else to turn to to buy a better version.

Take ringtones. That the phrase "ringtone market" even exists boggles my mind. The obvious, consumer-desired choice would be to be able to use whatever music you already own and put it on your phone as a ringtone. It's the most obvious and easy technological route to allow this as well. Only lopsided bargaining power, deliberate technology crippling, and the best laws big money can buy, lead to such ridiculous end results as paying $2.00 or more for a 30-second clip of a song, and perhaps being in trouble with laws like the DMCA if you work around such consumer-unfriendly limitations.

The fact that there are phones out there now that don't have such restrictions is not purely the result of consumer choices about what they will and will not buy. It has also taken the efforts of hackers, unwilling to put up with nothing but "take it or leave it" as choices, who have forced the hands of big companies to reconsider if their attempts to create deliberately restrictive technologies are worthwhile.

If you think we'd make any progress at all against things like DRM and $2.00 ringtones simply by getting droves of people to refuse to buy things that are almost-but-not-quite what they want, simply going without music or functionality they desire for years until their buying decisions possibly make an impact, with the fervor of a mass boycott, and without any hackers breaking DRM and bypassing technological restrictions, you're dreaming.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #38 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

It's one thing to disagree with what I wrote, and another to respond as if you only half read what I said.

I don't disagree with what you wrote since it's presented as opinion (or I took it that way - had I taken it as fact I'd have corrected your assertions with links to substantiate my position). It's your opinion and I agree it's your opinion. I responded to the crux of your argument...the logic you presented.

Since you based your argument on the fact you consider the consumer helpless and subject to the machinations of a corporation outside of their control, I pointed out the flaw. That effectively discounted the entirety of your argument since it's underpinnings had been shown to be unfounded. Based on that, I don't HAVE to respond to the rest, QED.

The consumer isn't helpless. The consumer has TONS of other manufactures that produce items that compete with Apple and it's iPhone product to chose from. There is no monopoly. The consumer can take their iPhone and open it, change it, eat it, bury it, etc. The consumer has total control over what he or she does with the device. What the consumer doesn't have is control over the intellectual property (the code that makes the iPhone more than a collection of electronic parts and turns it into the premium device that it is) that he or she agrees at the onset of the activation of the device belongs to Apple and ONLY Apple.

Don't agree, but if you do, then honor your agreement.
post #39 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

...
The consumer isn't helpless. The consumer has TONS of other manufactures that produce items that compete...

Quite true. And this point can't be stressed enough.

I consider myself a consumer rights advocate, frequently feeling that our economy and legal system are structured against the little guy. But consumer empowerment isn't all good either. It means taking away our freedom to run a business the way we see fit..

We must balance the the benefits of consumer empowerment against the negatives associated with a government dictating the actions of its citizens.

In my opinion, the mobile phone market has plenty of competition even without the government stepping in and declaring how companies have to do business. Dissatisfied customers can easily choose a competing product. Of course markets change so I'd have to reevaluate this position if consumers ever start to lose their power to choose.
post #40 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

It sure is. The consumer doesn't have to accept the terms at all, and no matter what terms the company wants to impose, there are local and national laws that limit what it can do.

The consumer is totally in control - he or she can simply refuse to purchase the device.

If you don't like what the iPod does, don't buy it. Same goes for the iPhone. Freaking grow up and realize that your wants and desires empower you and impose no stipulation on the behavior of any company, Apple included.


With that kind of argument whole industries would not exist.

Like Nascar
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