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Nokia launches anti-iPhone campaign amid controversy - Page 3

post #81 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunbow View Post

I think there is a lot in what you say. And those unlocking their phones are clearly going on a serious excursion from the clearly laid out agreement to go with AT&T. However, Apple have hinted that third-party development is not necessarily a bad thing. Moreover, Apple must be reasonable and proportionate and should continue to aspire to be at the top of customer care and service. Thus Apple (allegedly) telling people to buy another iPhone because they had the temerity to install some other piece of functionality on their iPhone is too harsh. Apple should offer a 'factory state' reversion service for say $10 at their Apple Stores. Then everyone is happy and people will have had the conditions of sale made clear, they will not have lost the entire value of their iPhone and Apple will not be out of pocket!

You don't feel the condition of sale is clear? Where have you been?

Apple doesn't support 3rd party apps on the iPhone. It also won't send the cops after you if you decide to try to modify the presently closed platform it offers. You can open it up, slag it with a soldering iron, bake it in a microwave, etc. It's your device. HOWEVER - If you modify your device to the point where an Apple supported update would prevent operation, then you're on your own.

You aren't being forced to implement any update, you aren't forced to do anything. Do, or do not. It's your choice.

Just know that if you do use the update on a phone that hasn't had the code modified to change the operation and it breaks, Apple will stand behind their device and repair it for you under warranty. If you have modified the code on the device you don't have that protection.

If you want the protection, don't hack your phone.

Now, if you want to argue that Apple hasn't said CLEARLY and EXACTLY that, then show me the link. Just don't start arguing some lame crap about how the word "wreak" is used. People on internet forums have a habit of starting arguments about semantics when their logic fails...saving face, I suppose.

And by 'semantics" I mean: "the language used to achieve a desired effect on an audience", just to make myself clear.

By the way, where's personal responsibility in this? You don't want your phone bricked, get all over the asses of the guys that wrote the crappy software that broke it. Hold the so-called "iPhone dev team" and the others responsible for their crappy code that results in your phone being bricked. It worked when you took it from the box from Apple 'till you installed that crud.
post #82 of 142
In an effort to keep this thread off topic here's Apples Dictionary definition.

wreak |r?k|
verb [ trans. ]
cause (a large amount of damage or harm) : torrential rainstorms wreaked havoc yesterday | the environmental damage wreaked by ninety years of phosphate mining.
inflict (vengeance) : he was determined to wreak his revenge on the girl who had rejected him.
archaic avenge (someone who has been wronged) : grant me some knight to wreak me for my son.

DERIVATIVES wreaker
noun

ORIGIN Old English wrecan [drive (out), avenge,] of Germanic origin; related to Dutch wreken and German rächen; compare with wrack 4 , wreck , and wretch .

USAGE The phrase wrought havoc, as in: they wrought havoc on the countryside, is an acceptable variant of wreaked havoc. Here, wrought is an archaic past tense of work. It is not, as is sometimes assumed, a past tense of wreak.

In an effort to keep this thread on topic

Hacking the iPhone at the momement is an individual decision one should make knowing going in that they may end up with a brick.
I expect Apple to allow third party apps on the iPhone at some point, after all the iPhone is based on OS X. It will happen, but only when Apple feels comfortable allowing it.
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post #83 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickag View Post

I expect Apple to allow third party apps on the iPhone at some point, after all the iPhone is based on OS X. It will happen, but only when Apple feels comfortable allowing it.

I don't see it anytime soon! Apple is a software company also and I think they are going to try very hard to keep these new touch devices closed to only Apple software. If they do this they will have a much bigger profit center, and like so many people have said it's all about money right????

When you think about charging for OS-X upgrades on a regular basis for millions of units or selling $9.99 - $19.99 application through iTunes or application subscriptions you are going to be dealing with hundreds of millions in dollars in added sales every year.

Look the future is going to be touch based notebook/tablet computers and these current devices are just setting the stage for what is about to come, and Apple is going to want to own that market for along time before it starts to share it with 3rd party vendors.
post #84 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by k2director View Post

I have absolutely no problem with Apple making life hard for people who have unlocked their iPhones to run on a non-AT&T network. AT&T has made concessions to Apple to make the iPhone what it is (ie, developing visual voicemail, beefing up the EDGE network, developing the innovative iTunes activation process...not to mention sharing subscriber revenues with Apple) and it's fair that Apple protect AT&T's investment in the iPhone for the 2 or 5 year exclusivity period (whatever it really is). That's honest and fair business.

But I *can't stand* Apple's attempt to discourage third-party development. There are TONS of gaps in the Iphone experience that Apple is being glacially slow in addressing. I have no To Do application for my phone. I can't play games on it. I can't record voice notes. Etc. etc. etc. It's been more than 3 months since the iPhone launched, and all Apple has provided is the WiFi iTunes store, which I personally don't need, and which really serves Apple as much as its customers because it lets Apple sell more music.

There's a saying that goes "Lead, follow or get out of the way." When it comes to app development for the iPhone, Apple is clearly not leading. If it won't lead, then it needs to make room for others...

I beg to differ. AT&T and every telecom carrier is constantly in upgrade mode for their networks. While the iPhone deal with Apple may provide incentives or a schedule for such upgrades, they would happen with or without the iPhone in due course.

The iPhone mess, and that is what this has turned into, demonstrates pure greed and lack of customer appreciation on the parts of AT&T and Apple. Funny how two of the most respected companies in technology have become so obnoxious to their customers.

Verizon, Sprint, and T-Mobile - this is your opportunity to demonstrate your ability to innovate and provide good customer relations.

As for the 3rd party apps, I wonder what the suits at Apple are even thinking. They deserve the negative backlash and class action lawsuits that emerge.
post #85 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunbow
I think there is a lot in what you say. And those unlocking their phones are clearly going on a serious excursion from the clearly laid out agreement to go with AT&T. However, Apple have hinted that third-party development is not necessarily a bad thing. Moreover, Apple must be reasonable and proportionate and should continue to aspire to be at the top of customer care and service. Thus Apple (allegedly) telling people to buy another iPhone because they had the temerity to install some other piece of functionality on their iPhone is too harsh. Apple should offer a 'factory state' reversion service for say $10 at their Apple Stores. Then everyone is happy and people will have had the conditions of sale made clear, they will not have lost the entire value of their iPhone and Apple will not be out of pocket!

You don't feel the condition of sale is clear? Where have you been?

Apple doesn't support 3rd party apps on the iPhone. It also won't send the cops after you if you decide to try to modify the presently closed platform it offers. You can open it up, slag it with a soldering iron, bake it in a microwave, etc. It's your device. HOWEVER - If you modify your device to the point where an Apple supported update would prevent operation, then you're on your own.

You aren't being forced to implement any update, you aren't forced to do anything. Do, or do not. It's your choice.

Just know that if you do use the update on a phone that hasn't had the code modified to change the operation and it breaks, Apple will stand behind their device and repair it for you under warranty. If you have modified the code on the device you don't have that protection.

If you want the protection, don't hack your phone.

Now, if you want to argue that Apple hasn't said CLEARLY and EXACTLY that, then show me the link. Just don't start arguing some lame crap about how the word "wreak" is used. People on internet forums have a habit of starting arguments about semantics when their logic fails...saving face, I suppose.

And by 'semantics" I mean: "the language used to achieve a desired effect on an audience", just to make myself clear.

By the way, where's personal responsibility in this? You don't want your phone bricked, get all over the asses of the guys that wrote the crappy software that broke it. Hold the so-called "iPhone dev team" and the others responsible for their crappy code that results in your phone being bricked. It worked when you took it from the box from Apple 'till you installed that crud.

Seems simple enough. I don't think Apple could have made it any simpler.

They don't want their 'Macs' 'unlocking' on AMD processors or 3rd party tat either. It's their stuff. Up to them, I guess.

3rd party develop. Hmm. Again, up to them. It's their party. Do we really want virus and trojan crap on it?

Maybe a kind of 'approved' 3rd party vendor set up may work. ie going through Apple. But we didn't have this debate on the iPod.

It's a phone. Not a computer.

Wait for the PDA. It's probably coming.

Lemon Bon Bon.

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post #86 of 142
As for Nokia?

You can smell the fear.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

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You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

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post #87 of 142
Let's see, another potential lawsuit.

Users who were warned that doing something could screw up their phone and void their warranty did it anyway, and it screwed up their phone and voided their warranty. Yeah, THAT's going to have a good shot.
post #88 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It isn't wrong. It's just, as the lexicographers like to say, "fallen out of favor".

It was your use of the word "wrong" that had me fooled, I guess. I did get in touch with my copy editor over at Simon & Schuster, and they said that it, actually, hadn't fallen out of favor - and they felt it was six-of-one, half-a-dozen of another. Like all grammar and language, it's a matter of "shared consent."
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post #89 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo-xl View Post

I don't see it anytime soon! Apple is a software company also and I think they are going to try very hard to keep these new touch devices closed to only Apple software. If they do this they will have a much bigger profit center, and like so many people have said it's all about money right????

When you think about charging for OS-X upgrades on a regular basis for millions of units or selling $9.99 - $19.99 application through iTunes or application subscriptions you are going to be dealing with hundreds of millions in dollars in added sales every year.

Look the future is going to be touch based notebook/tablet computers and these current devices are just setting the stage for what is about to come, and Apple is going to want to own that market for along time before it starts to share it with 3rd party vendors.

You very well could be right and I may indeed be wrong. However, there is and will be competition from other cell phone manufacturers that most certainly will allow, if not promote, 3rd party apps.
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post #90 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzaslove View Post

It was your use of the word "wrong" that had me fooled, I guess. I did get in touch with my copy editor over at Simon & Schuster, and they said that it, actually, hadn't fallen out of favor - and they felt it was six-of-one, half-a-dozen of another. Like all grammar and language, it's a matter of "shared consent."

When it comes to language, not everyone is on the same track. Some lead, and some lag.
post #91 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

As for Nokia?

You can smell the fear.

Of course. I know someone who works in Motorola's cellphone division, and back in January when the iPhone was first demo'd, the first reaction was "Huh?!?" followed by a collective crapping of their pants. I'm sure Nokia's reaction wasn't too different.

That said, fear is GOOD. Gets you off your ass, makes you start innovating. Nokia's fear is great, if it translates into good, competitive products showing up to take on the iPhone. I think it will.

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post #92 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

When it comes to language, not everyone is on the same track. Some lead, and some lag.

Hardly. Some accept and some don't. There are no "leaders" in language. What's avant-garde for some is simply "street" for others. Leaders? It's a stew, not a horse race. Always has been, just go hunt through something like the Oxford English dictionary. Naw, of all the writers, editors, English professors and etymologists I've worked with, there's never been anyone claiming they've been a "leader" in language. It's simply the ability to communicate in the most universal fashion.

But, this is off-topic....
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post #93 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by meh 2 View Post

Schlemiel: "See - that's the problem! McLaren tries to engineer everything on their Formula 1 cars and I'm just not going to buy one until they allow 3rd party parts or begin using third party parts!!"

But I've a lathe and a welding torch. Why can't I modify my iPhone?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

As for Nokia?

You can smell the fear.

They can probably smell my money if Apple are going to continue with shitty products and behaviour like the new iMacs and the iPhone.

I'm hoping Jobs is just about to write one of those Open Letters where we instantly forget what a shit he's been previously.
post #94 of 142
Well, hold my tongue on the whole VX10000 announcement being tomorrow. Turns out that the phones on Verizon's teaser site may be released only one at a time, in the order they appear on the site. And the VX10K is the last phone on the site.

Therefore, there may be no official announcement 'bout it 'til it releases in November or December. The first 'iPhone clone' will remain in the shadows... unless ya know where to look for info.

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...1&postcount=35


...
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post #95 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzaslove View Post

Hardly. Some accept and some don't. There are no "leaders" in language. What's avant-garde for some is simply "street" for others. Leaders? It's a stew, not a horse race. Always has been, just go hunt through something like the Oxford English dictionary. Naw, of all the writers, editors, English professors and etymologists I've worked with, there's never been anyone claiming they've been a "leader" in language. It's simply the ability to communicate in the most universal fashion.

But, this is off-topic....

By leading, I don't mean "correctness". I mean that some catch on to where things are going more quickly than others as the language evolves.

But you are right, this is off-track.
post #96 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

But I've a lathe and a welding torch. Why can't I modify my iPhone?

Well, I tried to open someone's aluminum iPod with my plasma, but it didn't work.\

I couldn't even find the Nano when I was through.

Don't know why. I cut 12.5mm steel with it.
post #97 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

By leading, I don't mean "correctness". I mean that some catch on to where things are going more quickly than others as the language evolves.

But you are right, this is off-track.







Gee, ya think?


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post #98 of 142
Having owned 2 Nokia smartphones in EUROPE I can comfortably say Apple has nothing to fear from Nokia. Nokia just crams tech specs into it's phones but they don't really work well. Sure I installed applications. Biggus Dealus! They hardly worked either. Nokia wifi is like one of those supra 2400 baud modems. And finally with the iPhone breathing down their neck they release a mac application. So go ahead and buy a Nokia and make my day! Fool!!
post #99 of 142
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post #100 of 142
It was just a matter of time before someone would come out with the consummate iPhone killer - and that someone turned out to be Apple!

Well, as they say in the electronics business, if you don't eat your young, somebody else will...
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post #101 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

They can probably smell my money if Apple are going to continue with shitty products and behaviour like the new iMacs and the iPhone.

lol, just because you don't like something doesn't make it 'shitty'. i quite love the new 24" iMac i'm typing this on. sales figures would suggest many many ppl don't feel the iPhone is "shitty" as well.

as Sunbow said: "you aren't forced to do anything. Do, or do not. It's your choice". your choice is not to buy, i presume. fair enough. if you choose to buy, and choose to hack (or rather, break the terms of the contract), stiff cheddar... that's not apple's fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by help4mac

Biggus Dealus!...

Biggus Dickus' lesser-known younger brother, i presume?! and i agree on the assessment of nokia phones, btw...
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post #102 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

lol, just because you don't like something doesn't make it 'shitty'. i quite love the new 24" iMac i'm typing this on. sales figures would suggest many many ppl don't feel the iPhone is "shitty" as well.

Yes, because huge sales figures make something less shitty. Ford cars, McDonalds burgers, Windows....

I much prefer the clean white iMac I'm typing this on to the shiny new iMac with it's mismatched keyboard and mouse. IMHO the new iMac is worse than the old one design wise and in some respects technology wise. That's my opinion. For the last 6 years or so I've been spoilt by liking almost everything Apple has produced. The MacBook and the new iMac were my first two immediate strong dislikes, then the new Nano. There's also a few head scratchers that are almost dislikes - Airport Extreme before they added gigabit, Mighty Mouse's small uncleanable ball.

The iPhone has a wonderful UI but very sub-par applications (Safari aside), sub-par hardware and now a seemingly customer unfriendly business model. If Apple is saying that this is how the iPhone is to be and I have no say in it then I won't buy one. It's obviously not for me - which is an odd thing for me to say as I've almost universally liked Apple products.

I'll wait this one out at least hoping they open it up, add the missing features I need and revise the hardware. I got offered two iPhones for doing someone a favour a few weeks back and declined. I'm glad I did now.

I've been feeling it for the last year or so. Apple are falling out of favour with me gradually to the point that if I could run OSX on a Thinkpad without jumping through hoops, I would.
post #103 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

It was just a matter of time before someone would come out with the consummate iPhone killer - and that someone turned out to be Apple!

Well, as they say in the electronics business, if you don't eat your young, somebody else will...

lol! spot on.

Interest in iPhone for me before 1.1.1 - might get one to play with as 3rd party software seems to be progressing along nicely.

Interest in iPhone for me afterwards - couldn't give me one for free.
post #104 of 142
I think the first serious threat to the iPhone will be Verizon Wireless' LG Voyager phone. From what I've seen from the specs of the Voyager, not only does it have a pretty nice display and touchscreen operations, but a real keyboard so email and text messaging isn't such a painful experience. And best of all, unlike the iPhone, the LG Voyager supports EVDO wireless broadband Internet access, so web surfing works decent well even out of Wi-Fi range.
post #105 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

I think the first serious threat to the iPhone will be Verizon Wireless' LG Voyager phone. From what I've seen from the specs of the Voyager, not only does it have a pretty nice display and touchscreen operations, but a real keyboard so email and text messaging isn't such a painful experience.

That's kind of a subjective thing. For me, buttons on phones are usually painful but I had no trouble with the iPhone. Phone buttons by their nature are generally high pressure, I get sore thumbs pretty quickly.
post #106 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

That's kind of a subjective thing. For me, buttons on phones are usually painful but I had no trouble with the iPhone. Phone buttons by their nature are generally high pressure, I get sore thumbs pretty quickly.


Phones with QWERTY physical keyboards are very popular though, so it appears that many do not share your affliction.

The Sidekick and enV, for example, sell like hotcakes, not to mention Blackberries.

Far as the Voyager/VX10000 goes, it offers both a virtual keyboard and a physical one, so you can use whichever you prefer.


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post #107 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

lol! spot on.

Interest in iPhone for me before 1.1.1 - might get one to play with as 3rd party software seems to be progressing along nicely.

Interest in iPhone for me afterwards - couldn't give me one for free.

Exact-o-mundo. I had an itch to go and buy a couple as Christmas presents but man, not now. Who would buy one of these now?

If I don't behave and do exactly as Apple tells me to do, they will purposely break (err, brick) my phone? And then, as snotty as they can be, tell me to buy another? C'mon, that's harsh.

What's next? If you install ASM on your MacBook to get the familiar and wonderful ol' Application Menu back in the upper right, they'll disable your laptop? Or they'll do a deal with Comcast - so if you use anybody else's high speed connection, they'll freeze your computer?

Nasty and mean spirited. Refusing support is one thing, breaking and entering is something completely different. As an old Mac user who goes way, way back, I gotta say, this is damned embarrassing.
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post #108 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

Exact-o-mundo. I had an itch to go and buy a couple as Christmas presents but man, not now. Who would buy one of these now?

If I don't behave and do exactly as Apple tells me to do, they will purposely break (err, brick) my phone? And then, as snotty as they can be, tell me to buy another? C'mon, that's harsh.

What's next? If you install ASM on your MacBook to get the familiar and wonderful ol' Application Menu back in the upper right, they'll disable your laptop? Or they'll do a deal with Comcast - so if you use anybody else's high speed connection, they'll freeze your computer?

Nasty and mean spirited. Refusing support is one thing, breaking and entering is something completely different. As an old Mac user who goes way, way back, I gotta say, this is damned embarrassing.

I hope you don't buy another Apple product, as you seem to have your mind made up about Apple's motives.
post #109 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I hope you don't buy another Apple product, as you seem to have your mind made up about Apple's motives.

Why would you care one way or the other?

Motives are meaningless, perception is reality. They're supposed to be in business here, young stud. Cause and effect. Nobody, including the stock analysts, cares about "motives," except apparently, you. Results are what counts.

Apple went out of their way to disable their customer's purchases. Equipment that other people owned, broken purposefully by the company that sold it to them! Anyway you look at this, it's pretty outrageous behavior. No wonder the competition is jumping all over this.

Like I wrote, refusal to support is one thing, and quite understandable; breaking and entering is something much, much different.

Apple has given themselves a self-inflicted wound, a doofus PR maneuver that could've been easily avoided. Then, on top of this stupid tactic, they trot out a clumsy junior executive who blames the customer (always good for business) and then, tells them to just go buy another. Brilliant marketing.

Even Chris Breen - usually the biggest Apple booster/rah-rah guy around - called this move "despicable." It makes no logical sense defending this.
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post #110 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

Why would you care one way or the other?

Motives are meaningless, perception is reality. They're supposed to be in business here, young stud. Cause and effect. Nobody, including the stock analysts, cares about "motives," except apparently, you. Results are what counts.

Apple went out of their way to disable their customer's purchases. Equipment that other people owned, broken purposefully by the company that sold it to them! Anyway you look at this, it's pretty outrageous behavior. No wonder the competition is jumping all over this.

Like I wrote, refusal to support is one thing, and quite understandable; breaking and entering is something much, much different.

Apple has given themselves a self-inflicted wound, a doofus PR maneuver that could've been easily avoided. Then, on top of this stupid tactic, they trot out a clumsy junior executive who blames the customer (always good for business) and then, tells them to just go buy another. Brilliant marketing.

Even Chris Breen - usually the biggest Apple booster/rah-rah guy around - called this move "despicable." It makes no logical sense defending this.

You have this backwards. YOU seem to care about motives "young stud", who, or whatever, you are.

You're the one who complained so much about it in your post, not me. My response was in reference to your complaints about Apple's motives. Did you forget what you wrote? You wrote it again. for one who is now saying that motives shouldn't count, you seem to be making a big deal about it.

You are making unfounded assumptions about what Apple did. You have no idea about why Apple did what it did. Do you claim to have inside knowledge?

Since you quote Breen, who knows no more than you do, you shold read this:

http://brockerhoff.net/bb/viewtopic.php?p=2191#2191

And this:

http://www.wired.com/gadgets/mac/com...cultofmac_1003
post #111 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You have this backwards. YOU seem to care about motives "young stud", who, or whatever, you are.

You're the one who complained so much about it in your post, not me. My response was in reference to your complaints about Apple's motives. Did you forget what you wrote? You wrote it again. for one who is now saying that motives shouldn't count, you seem to be making a big deal about it.

You are making unfounded assumptions about what Apple did. You have no idea about why Apple did what it did. Do you claim to have inside knowledge?

Since you quote Breen, who knows no more than you do, you shold read this:

http://brockerhoff.net/bb/viewtopic.php?p=2191#2191

And this:

http://www.wired.com/gadgets/mac/com...cultofmac_1003

I'm amazed at the number of people who have simply adopted the stance that "Apple deliberately broke hacked phones out of spite".

Which, if you give it a moment's thought, is absurd. I am relatively certain, however, that Apple's competitors see this meme as being pretty useful, and are doing all they can to astroturf the internets with "outraged" "iPhone users".

There have been an remarkable number of people registering here whose posting never moves beyond anti-iPhone screeds.
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post #112 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I'm amazed at the number of people who have simply adopted the stance that "Apple deliberately broke hacked phones out of spite".

Which, if you give it a moment's thought, is absurd. I am relatively certain, however, that Apple's competitors see this meme as being pretty useful, and are doing all they can to astroturf the internets with "outraged" "iPhone users".

There have been an remarkable number of people registering here whose posting never moves beyond anti-iPhone screeds.

Who said anything about spite? This was a bad business decision, and I identified it as such. Please do not inject your feelings into what should be a pure business discussion.

All I've seen posted here are engineering excuses, design excuses, contractual excuses, technical support excuses and excuses based on feelings, whether love for Apple or anti-Apple feelings. This is a business issue.

Apple made the wrong business decision, period. It was bad PR and then they magnified it with a poor attitude. As I noted previously, what they did was outrageous behavior. I never said Apple was bad, I said they made a bad move, one I believe will cost them sales and revenue.

I am neither anti-iPhone nor anti-Mac. I write this post from my MacBook. My company runs on Macs. I've been a Mac user for nearly 20 years.

Let's eliminate touchy-feely words such as "spite" from the discussion. Let's eliminate excuses - both engineering or otherwise - from the discussion. Let's concentrate on the business decision, and especially, what the company can do as damage control.
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post #113 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

Let's eliminate touchy-feely words such as "spite" from the discussion. Let's eliminate excuses - both engineering or otherwise - from the discussion. Let's concentrate on the business decision, and especially, what the company can do as damage control.

If you eliminate emotional reactions to the decisions Apple made with the iPhone, yours - because there is no foundation to point to - needs to be eliminated, too.

Yours is a purely emotional position, since all financial results have been positive.

"It was bad PR" needs supporting evidence. If you have a poll you'd care to link...

"they magnified it with a poor attitude" is a subjective - and emotional - evaluation of their behavior.
post #114 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

...as snotty as they can be...

...Nasty and mean spirited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

Let's eliminate touchy-feely words such as "spite" from the discussion. Let's eliminate excuses - both engineering or otherwise - from the discussion. Let's concentrate on the business decision, and especially, what the company can do as damage control.

You twist & turn like a twisty, turny thing!

If Apples updater fails to fix the hacked files and the phone gets bricked it's the consumer's bad decision - not Apples. Why should the rest of us foot the bill for Apple having to clean up after hackers. If the consumer doesn't like, the consumer shouldn't buy.

McD
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post #115 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by McDave View Post

You twist & turn like a twisty, turny thing!

If Apples updater fails to fix the hacked files and the phone gets bricked it's the consumer's bad decision - not Apples. Why should the rest of us foot the bill for Apple having to clean up after hackers. If the consumer doesn't like, the consumer shouldn't buy.

McD

More excuses. Only customers - and most certainly, the Apple faithful over many years - have "footed" any bill set forth by Apple, ever.

Regardless of the blank check you want to give them, what they've done here, the decisions they've made, are still not good for business long term.

http://www.slate.com/id/2175304/
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post #116 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

More excuses. Only customers - and most certainly, the Apple faithful over many years - have "footed" any bill set forth by Apple, ever.

Sorry, was that some kind of lame excuse for increasing those bills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

Regardless of the blank check you want to give them, what they've done here, the decisions they've made, are still not good for business long term.

Based on what? Their continued increase in market share for iMac & iPhone product lines (hard to increase iPod market share) and a market capitalisation that's stormed past Dell & HP (onlt IBM & MS to go). What planet do you live on?

McD
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post #117 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

Regardless of the blank check you want to give them, what they've done here, the decisions they've made, are still not good for business long term.

I'm still unclear why you target Apple for your complaints. Apple didn't push the update. If your system has been modified in a manner that Apple didn't design, how can you expect a system update to succeed? If you don't expect that, how could you even hold Apple accountable to provide a graceful exit strategy for it's software when the condition of the system isn't known?

How 'bout the kid that did the hardware hack - modified the hardware of an iPhone to accomplish the unlocking - can you expect Apple to support his system?

If I installed software on a Blackberry and an update bricked it, do you think RIM should warranty the repair?

Of course you do, and I really can't understand why.

Also, that washington post link? I liked how the author just glossed over his "jailbreak" activity and claimed he wasn't breaking laws. Yes, changing carriers is legal, but the unlock hack doesn't accomplish that change - it's a later activity that does that.

You can walk out of the bank with $1,000.00 in your hand quite legally - but you can't break the law and have the same protection. If there was another way to accomplish the carrier thing (like a hardware thing) then you'd be safe, as far as I can tell, 'cause it didn't change the code.

"Circumvention of a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work is illegal if done with the primary intent of violating the rights of copyright holders."

Apple has a lock against running 3rd party software. Jailbreaking is illegal.
post #118 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by McDave View Post

Sorry, was that some kind of lame excuse for increasing those bills?



Based on what? Their continued increase in market share for iMac & iPhone product lines (hard to increase iPod market share) and a market capitalisation that's stormed past Dell & HP (onlt IBM & MS to go). What planet do you live on?

McD

A logical planet, one with a calendar. All of those glad tidings have happened prior to their corporate decision to purposefully ruin the equipment purchased by their customers who didn't do exactly as they were told to do. It will be iPhone sales over the next quarter that we should watch.

Moral of the story is simply: if you're an iPhone owner, you better behave or else. I believe this marketing tactic is not good business practice.
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post #119 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

I'm still unclear why you target Apple for your complaints. Apple didn't push the update. If your system has been modified in a manner that Apple didn't design, how can you expect a system update to succeed? If you don't expect that, how could you even hold Apple accountable to provide a graceful exit strategy for it's software when the condition of the system isn't known?

How 'bout the kid that did the hardware hack - modified the hardware of an iPhone to accomplish the unlocking - can you expect Apple to support his system?

If I installed software on a Blackberry and an update bricked it, do you think RIM should warranty the repair?

Of course you do, and I really can't understand why.

Also, that washington post link? I liked how the author just glossed over his "jailbreak" activity and claimed he wasn't breaking laws. Yes, changing carriers is legal, but the unlock hack doesn't accomplish that change - it's a later activity that does that.

You can walk out of the bank with $1,000.00 in your hand quite legally - but you can't break the law and have the same protection. If there was another way to accomplish the carrier thing (like a hardware thing) then you'd be safe, as far as I can tell, 'cause it didn't change the code.

"Circumvention of a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work is illegal if done with the primary intent of violating the rights of copyright holders."

Apple has a lock against running 3rd party software. Jailbreaking is illegal.

I think you're still missing the point. You're talking about software; I'm talking about sales and marketing.

Apple made a corporate decision to shut down iPhones that have been modified in an attempt to circumvent the law that grants a cell phone owner rights to unlock their phone. Honoring consumer's rights would've meant potentially reducing revenue, and of course, revenue is always more important than people's rights - or the law. Perhaps as a new entrant to the global cell phone market, they don't yet understand how things have worked for years and what consumers expect & do. I doubt that but almost everyone in this forum is offering up excuses, so I thought I'd contribute one, too.

Apple could have created a firmware updater that previewed the state of the phone's native firmware and either stopped any further update - or - returned the phone to it's original and pristine condition. This would've been simple. This would've been a different software path, enabling a whole different and much more positive sales and marketing reaction. That would've meant a different marketing approach.

Instead of roaring towards the holiday sales season, they now have competitors basing entire ad campaigns on their actions, thousands of customers up in arms, a slew of bad PR and news reports, slams from the media and across the web, and now, the first of what I'm certain will be lots and lots and lots of lawsuits:

<http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/10/10/iphone_bricking_lawsuit/>

Bad press, angry customers and lawsuits. I don't see those three in the how to succeed in marketing handbook :-)

They did not have to do this. They wanted to do this. I think engaging in this was a poor decision from a sales and marketing perspective, especially prior to the holiday season.
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post #120 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_s View Post

I think you're still missing the point. You're talking about software; I'm talking about sales and marketing.

Apple made a corporate decision to shut down iPhones that have been modified in an attempt to circumvent the law that grants a cell phone owner rights to unlock their phone. Honoring consumer's rights would've meant potentially reducing revenue, and of course, revenue is always more important than people's rights - or the law. Perhaps as a new entrant to the global cell phone market, they don't yet understand how things have worked for years and what consumers expect & do. I doubt that but almost everyone in this forum is offering up excuses, so I thought I'd contribute one, too.

Apple could have created a firmware updater that previewed the state of the phone's native firmware and either stopped any further update - or - returned the phone to it's original and pristine condition. This would've been simple. This would've been a different software path, enabling a whole different and much more positive sales and marketing reaction. That would've meant a different marketing approach.

Instead of roaring towards the holiday sales season, they now have competitors basing entire ad campaigns on their actions, thousands of customers up in arms, a slew of bad PR and news reports, slams from the media and across the web, and now, the first of what I'm certain will be lots and lots and lots of lawsuits:

<http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/10/10/iphone_bricking_lawsuit/>

Bad press, angry customers and lawsuits. I don't see those three in the how to succeed in marketing handbook :-)

They did not have to do this. They wanted to do this. I think engaging in this was a poor decision from a sales and marketing perspective, especially prior to the holiday season.

You're still making assumptions that you have no proof for.

While I think it is a bad decision not to support third party software, you have no evidence that they did it this on purpose.

I posted good articles giving reasons why Apple isn't likely to have done so deliberately. You must have decided to not read them.
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