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Microsoft unveils second generation of Zune media players - Page 2

post #41 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by samurai1999 View Post

Exactly - by any normal standard of business, the X-box has been an enormous failure
- gaining market share by taking a massive-loss it not normal business
- and there are laws against it - it's called 'dumping'

So far, no one's been nailed for selling a product below its cost it in a long time. The razor blade makers do it with "free" razor handles, printer makers do it, and other console makers have done it too.
post #42 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyWRX View Post

"The songs you download on your Zune Pass are yours for as long as you hold your Zune Pass subscription."

This is RENTING not buying. Stupid.

Nobody said it was a purchase system. Most subscription music services are generally a kind of membership system. A lot of the services let you choose if you want to buy or subscribe. I think both make sense, you buy the tracks that you like, but subscribe from time to time to sample what else is out there - sample the whole track and not just a tiny segment.
post #43 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Poor example? Its pretty well known that console gaming is all about selling games even if that mean taking a lose on the hardware. If its not a failure for the customer then who cares? We are the customer. If MS can continue to produce better products and we benifit thats the only thing that matters. I know that might sound too logical. I don't believe we have to worry about MS losing money its all about what they take in as a company, this is simple business, its about bottom line one division will pick up the slack for others divisions not doing as well. Same hold true for Apple unlike MS they have to make 50% on their hardware seeing only 6% of computer market owns it.

So tell me how much money MS has made in games as compared to dumping the XBox?

Sure, we don't have to worry about MS losing money, but the shareholders do. And asinine ventures like this are not good business practices. The track record of their stock has shown where these whims are taking them.

Is MS really producing this product? It was based on a Toshiba product; MS just threw money at it and hoped that would make a competitive, better product. In a very few respects, maybe there are some things better about (though I can't think of one), but there are other MP3 makers that do not have monopolistic tendencies regarding how I manage my music that I would sooner purchase more feature-filled better product from. There is really nothing new in this product that allows it to stand out from all the other MP3 players out there other than the Zune store.

And I can't see how bizarre DRM is better.
post #44 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

So far, no one's been nailed for selling a product below its cost it in a long time. The razor blade makers do it with "free" razor handles, printer makers do it, and other console makers have done it too.



You've got a computer, right?

You've heard of google, right?

Try typing in "anti-dumping eu" and then ask yourself "why is there no Zune in the EU?"

But, the important thing about all your examples is that 'in the round' looking at the whole, a profit is made - i.e. razor-blade manufactures make the profit on the Razor blades, Printer makers make the profit on the Ink, console makers make the profit on the Software
- except in MS's case, they make a massive loss on (h/w + s/w)
- and no other company would be insane enough to support the losses they are making
- basically the h/w + s/w model has failed for them
- and their only hope is to keep taking the loss long enough to drive out the competition, at when point they can raise their prices and try to claw back these massive losses.

I would say that the h/w + s/w model has allows MS to hide what they are actually doing
- because they can say 'hey, we may be making a loss now, but we will make a profit *this* time on the software'
- and when that doesn't happen they can bring out a new Generation, and say *this* time it will be different, *this* time we will make a profit on the software, and so on...

Geddit yet?
post #45 of 75
umm..

does that image really say podcasts?

do they really?




oh, so... new low.
post #46 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Continuing on its quest to make a dent in Apple's dominate share...

Why, why, WHY is this such a common mistake!? It's dominaNT share, not dominaTE share.

I don't make a big point of commenting on typos and grammar usually, but this particular mistake is all over the place... and must be stamped out!
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post #47 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Well lets put it this way. By now everyone on this forum would have though the Zune would have failed and been pulled over the market. The fact is its making progress which is exactly what I expected.

No, I think everyone pretty much expected Microsoft to continue to throw money into the Zune hole, to not much effect. Which is exactly what has happened.

If you want to define 'progress' as being at the one year mark of MS's (rather futile) effort, and now making flash Zunes that few will buy instead of just hard-drive Zunes that few will buy, well booyah then.


Quote:
MS doesn't enter a market and in the hopes of grabbing first place the first year, a perfect example is look at the gaming console market six years ago and look at it now, its quite different.

LOL, yes, its far different. Instead of having its console marketshare far eclipsed by Sony, now it's having its console marketshare far eclipsed by Nintendo. They traded Japanese companies to lose to.

Consoles really aren't a great thing for MS to boast about. For one thing, they've lost billions in their console efforts, and have yet to recoup it. For another, ppl don't seem to realize that the US is the only major market where the Xbox/360 has done at all well. Over in Europe, it is significantly less popular, and in Japan you almost can't give them away. None of that seems likely to go away any time soon.

MS really has very few true 'wins' outside of its Windows and Office monopolies. They consistently make mediocre 'me too' copycat products, and if they can't leverage Windows, they usually can't win. There's just not much innovation or cutting-edge design going on up in Redmond, it doesn't seem to be in their corporate DNA anymore, if ever it was. \


.
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post #48 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Well lets assume that number is correct isn't it interesting that they can just keep moving along. I believe as of July 2007 the number was really closer to 2 billion.

Nope, that was their loss in the first half of 2007, not their loss since inception of the Xbox
version 1.

This was from before they posted a $2 billion loss IN ONE QUARTER for the game division,
which included $1 billion to fix the red ring of death:

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Microsof..._Xbox_division

$4 + $2 = $6 billion. Actually, I think that they lost quite a bit more than that, because I am only
counting the losses on the first xbox + the single quarter loss.

"At stake is more than bragging rights. Microsoft has pledged to turn a profit in the Xbox division in the year that began in July, following $7 billion in losses since the first Xbox was sold in 2001."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=ah.zkXSTEhuo
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post #49 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by josa92 View Post

umm..

does that image really say podcasts?

do they really?




oh, so... new low.

That developers, marketing people & everybody else at MS must gag when they have to put p-p-p-p-podcast capability in their products!!

Love it!!

McD
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post #50 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Will the Zune ever really take off, whos knows but it appears MS is in things for the long run. People talk about them losing billions in console gaming but at the same time they have killed off the competition so at some point logic tells us they are going to be the only one standing.

Microsoft has killed off no one in console gaming. Sony shot itself in the face, and got replaced by Nintendo. MS is still stuck at low marketshare worldwide. Pls to stop drinking the Redmondade.

.
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post #51 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by buddha View Post

surprisingly large number of people sucking microsoft's dick in this thread, interesting.

Apparently buying a Zune also leaves a nasty taste in one's mouth

McD
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post #52 of 75
Oh, and for bonus points... looks like Bungie may be leaving Microsoft. If so, a pretty major blow for the Xbox:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...mac_games.html


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post #53 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Well lets assume that number is correct isn't it interesting that they can just keep moving along. I believe as of July 2007 the number was really closer to 2 billion.

How is that "interesting"? It just means MS has enough money to throw at markets that they don't seem to compete very well in (by compete I mean "be profitable"). And to do so for a long time.

So MS will keep the Zune afloat for a long time, even if it means losing money on every unit sold. I don't know anyone who expected otherwise.

That's not really the same as competing. Competing, in the MP3 market, means you build compelling products that give people a clear reason to choose them over the entrenched incumbent. You have to do better than "OK" or "pretty much the same at the price point", because an entrenched incumbent has too much market inertia for customers to just wander off without strong motivation.

Slightly larger screens, odd colors and WiFi syncing (and what's that going to do to the battery life of a flash sized player?) aren't enough. WiFi syncing, in particular, really strikes me like one of those typical MS bullet-point features, that sounds a lot better on paper than it actually is. And, anyway, if "more features" were the magic ingredient that won over iPod users, the market would have long since made that clear. Obviously, that is not the case, and it's one of those things that the corporate culture at MS will never, ever understand.

Now, given time, I'm sure MS can find ways to improve the Zune line. But Apple's not standing still, and by the time that happens, Apple will have taken the iPod lineup somewhere else. For instance, it looks like the new Zune flash models compete pretty well, in terms of design, with the Mini of several generations ago. What do you think Apple will be making by the time MS makes something that competes head on with the second generation Nano?

If, as you say, the MP3 player paradigm is exhausted, with nothing of significance to be done, how does that improve MS's chances of grabbing market share? If true, all that means is that the market is heading toward being completely commodified, where price and price alone is the differentiator.

Apple knows how to stay ahead of that curve with striking design and its "whole widget" strategy. Does MS?
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post #54 of 75
I wonder how long it will be before the first virus is written to take advantage of the Zune Wi-Fi interlink?

Computer A gets infected, virus transfers to Zune A, Zune B downloads songs (and the virus) from Zune A, computer B is infected when Zune B is connected, bypassing the firewall and AV software.

Not the most efficient way to propagate a virus, but some hacker would find it worth trying.
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post #55 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasper View Post

Those are just a couple of reasons why we cover major Zune announcements. K

Major Zune Announcements Plural? You mean I missed the other one?

There's some serious issues with M$ and their product announcement strategy. Why is it that for the last couple of years whenever Apple introduces a new or improved product, they send out well-publicized invitations to the media and treat them all to canapes and punch at Moscone (or Flint or the SJ Civic Auditorium) with lots of fanfare.

For this supposedly exciting even M$ chooses to bring in a few trusted journalists and then tell them that there's a news embargo until 12 midnight EDT. Why all the secrecy and sneaking around? Are they totally ashamed of the Zoon? Do they not care about big parties or at least a little fanfare? No they hold a secret meeting and proclaim a news blackout until Freakin' midnight! What's with those anti-social dudes anyway? J Allard must be a total business school dropout the way he manages his announcements.
post #56 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimDreamworx View Post

So tell me how much money MS has made in games as compared to dumping the XBox?

Sure, we don't have to worry about MS losing money, but the shareholders do. And asinine ventures like this are not good business practices. The track record of their stock has shown where these whims are taking them.

Is MS really producing this product? It was based on a Toshiba product; MS just threw money at it and hoped that would make a competitive, better product. In a very few respects, maybe there are some things better about (though I can't think of one), but there are other MP3 makers that do not have monopolistic tendencies regarding how I manage my music that I would sooner purchase more feature-filled better product from. There is really nothing new in this product that allows it to stand out from all the other MP3 players out there other than the Zune store.

And I can't see how bizarre DRM is better.

Well in the X-box vs Sony/Nintendo... They are clearly money hatting above and beyond.

The elite sells for almost a third less as much as it does for Japan. ->major loss to take market.

The royalty for each game license is almost half of the competitors if not more. (Royalties is how you're suppose to recoup HW cost)

They have been sprinkling a lot of money for exclusively, the most nortorous, is the $50mil bank into GTA4 DLC content($50mil is like 2 games)

They PR spending is probably double of their rivals.

They took out 1billion for the RROD failure problem.

There is probably a lot more MS is "dumping" in the console market. Clearly more then others. Royalties alone is telling.

Even if their division goes black, it will be a long time, as a lot of their accountants have moved the more "embarrassing" stuff away from the books (RROD 1bil was put as a "last year" deduction)


Will they do it in this market? Probably. Though they can't do it in as many ways. No such things as SW royalties in Zune. Maybe open their own recording studio? haha. Who knows.

But if MS wants to Moneyhat the mp3 market, they are quite deadly, if not suicidal. (Sony hasn't lowered its royalties to PS3 nor nintendo I believe despite what MS does- which now you know why so many multiplat-games for 360 have been coming in)
post #57 of 75
you guys are complaining about how ZUNE is all the time. That's cause your on a MAC forum, if you were on a Microsoft or PC electronics forum, they would say ZUNE is amazing and iPods aren't that great. So think what you want.
post #58 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebeat View Post

you guys are complaining about how ZUNE is all the time. That's cause your on a MAC forum, if you were on a Microsoft or PC electronics forum, they would say ZUNE is amazing and iPods aren't that great. So think what you want.

I don't think even PC electronics forum will think Zune is good...they may think ipod isn't all that, but they wouldn't hype up Zune...scandisk or creative maybe

Heck even teamXbox forums don't touch the Zune topic.

Zune is just...
post #59 of 75
Touch-sensitive buttons? Are they serious? Apple did that 5 years ago on the 3rd generation iPod and it was the worst selling iPod ever! Nice way to keep up Microsoft. Dragging the finger across the Zune Pad. I guess that will be as close as they get to simulating the touchscreen on the iPhone/iPod Touch.

No one will miss the brown, you see it everyday after using the bathroom.
post #60 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Poor example? Its pretty well known that console gaming is all about selling games even if that mean taking a lose on the hardware.

If its not a failure for the customer then who cares? We are the customer. If MS can continue to produce better products and we benifit thats the only thing that matters. I know that might sound too logical.

I don't believe we have to worry about MS losing money its all about what they take in as a company, this is simple business, its about bottom line one division will pick up the slack for others divisions not doing as well.

Same hold true for Apple unlike MS they have to make 50% on their hardware seeing only 6% of computer market owns it.

Things are fine as long as Microsoft is fighting for a market, but they have shown again and again that once they capture that market they're much more interested in maintaining that position by bullshit compatibility games than matching the competitors' quality.

Had Office used an open, structured text format between ten years ago and today, I believe everyone including Microsoft's own customers would now be enjoying office software well beyond Mellel, Excel and Keynote in quality and cheaper than Office.
post #61 of 75
// Have a read on how best to use your new Zune:

Article

LOL
post #62 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtotes View Post

// Have a read on how best to use your new Zune:

Article

LOL

Simply awesome! If I didn't already have an iPod case I like, I'd order one of those! LOL

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post #63 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtotes View Post

// Have a read on how best to use your new Zune:

Article

LOL


That is the best thing EVER:




HIde-a-Pod:
The ultimate iPod* (and iPhone*)
Anti-Theft Device . . .

Hide it in a Zune!


.
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post #64 of 75
Wow... just wow...

extremeskater - you are an idiot. Please come back after you get into college and take some business courses. Until then, just shut up and stop making a fool out of yourself. Kthx.
post #65 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Poor example? Its pretty well known that console gaming is all about selling games even if that mean taking a lose on the hardware.

If its not a failure for the customer then who cares? We are the customer. If MS can continue to produce better products and we benifit thats the only thing that matters. I know that might sound too logical.

It does matter because Microsoft is trying to make themselves a monopoly in the console space. That's not a good thing.

Quote:
Same hold true for Apple unlike MS they have to make 50% on their hardware seeing only 6% of computer market owns it.

Apple doesn't make 50% on their hardware. You only say that because you either don't know what you are talking about or it's it's inconvenient for your silly argument. Those tear-downs that you may be thinking about are only for iPods and still doesn't tell you Apple's net profit, only gross margin. Net profit isn't SRP - cost of components. There are an enormous number of normal business expenses related to the development and sale of the units that aren't considered in gross margin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

I don't know of too many markets that MS enters that are pointless. Any company can enter a market that fails but Bill Gates isn't the richest American because he makes bad choices.

Bill Gates is the richest American because of Windows & Office. Relative to those two, most of what else Microsoft does is of little consequence in terms of bringing the money in, everything they do that succeeds is only in connection with those two products.
post #66 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Poor example? Its pretty well known that console gaming is all about selling games even if that mean taking a lose on the hardware.

If its not a failure for the customer then who cares? We are the customer. If MS can continue to produce better products and we benifit thats the only thing that matters. I know that might sound too logical.

I don't believe we have to worry about MS losing money its all about what they take in as a company, this is simple business, its about bottom line one division will pick up the slack for others divisions not doing as well.

Same hold true for Apple unlike MS they have to make 50% on their hardware seeing only 6% of computer market owns it.

You are totally off base. MS has no interest in losing billions in their XBox division. They have have had no corporate roundtables where someone has has said "Don't worry about it, we'll make it up by selling Vista Ultimate for $500 or embedding Vista and Office with OEMS and ungodly prices."

MS has every intention of making money on the XBox, and this next year may actually start to make something back on their investment due to the PS3's lack of games and despite the Wii's huge popularity

The truth is, MS saw Sony as a threat to the future of ActiveX so they created the XBox. Selling at a loss was not really an issue as long as MS kept their hold on DirectX.

The Zune is another example as it attacked MS hold on it's constrictive DRM. Against popular belief, MS isn't the targeting iPod here with their Zune, they are targeting everyone else. All their previous Play4Sure partners.
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post #67 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

MS has every intention of making money on the XBox, and this next year may actually start to make something back on their investment due to the PS3's lack of games and despite the Wii's huge popularity

Shouldn't they have been able to make a net profit sooner? I don't like it when any company just bleeds money for a half-decade or more in the hopes of eventually making money. A lot of the dot-commers did it, the difference here is that MS has a huge bank

Quote:
The truth is, MS saw Sony as a threat to the future of ActiveX so they created the XBox. Selling at a loss was not really an issue as long as MS kept their hold on ActiveX.

Don't you mean DirectX?

Quote:
The Zune is another example as it attacked MS hold on it's constrictive DRM. Against popular belief, MS isn't the targeting iPod here with their Zune, they are targeting everyone else. All their previous Play4Sure partners.

I really don't understand what you mean by that. Why would MS get into the market just to attack their own previous allies when they make up a small fraction of the US market? I say US because I think it's still a US-only product.
post #68 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

[1)]Shouldn't they have been able to make a net profit sooner? I don't like it when any company just bleeds money for a half-decade or more in the hopes of eventually making money. A lot of the dot-commers did it, the difference here is that MS has a huge bank

[2)]Don't you mean DirectX?

[3)]I really don't understand what you mean by that. Why would MS get into the market just to attack their own previous allies when they make up a small fraction of the US market? I say US because I think it's still a US-only product.

1) You'll have to ask MS about that.
2) Yes, I did mean DirectX. Thank you.
3) The iPod marketshare is quite entrenched. The people buying iPods seems to be quite happy with iPod, iTunes, and iTunes Store. The easier target is the non-iPod market. MS already turned it's back on it's previous allies when releasing the Zune instead of working with them so it makes sense that they are going after their marketshare first. They are, after all, the easy target. Will MS make a dent with SanDisk's flash based players? I don't know, as they tend to lower their prices dramatically for the holidays and i'm not sure MS is willing to match them.
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post #69 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) You'll have to ask MS about that.

I mean that in a more general sense though, a company that can't net a profit at something in five years of starting something doesn't sound healthy to me.
post #70 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I mean that in a more general sense though, a company that can't net a profit at something in five years of starting something doesn't sound healthy to me.

I don't think their goal was to net a profit right away unless they had a slew of games miraculously come out that made it possible. Which they didn't. I think the real benefit was to keep PS at bay just enough to keep DirectX a viable option for the XBox and WIndows platforms for many a years to come.

This same mentally is working with MS turning its cheek completely or offering very low cost software sales in developing countries. Get them dependent on MS products at a loss now and you you'll have customers decades down the road.

In other words, it doesn't matter if MS doesn't make money back right away as long as it maintains it's software monopoly.
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post #71 of 75
Quote:

MS has a long history of failure in every market it has entered - except the OS & Office markets - and these divisions, thanks to their monopoly positions have been responsible for propping up all of MS's other failures.

I'll remember that the next time I kill a 10,000+ client Novell network and replace it with a Microsoft backbone, and then net a 30% reduction in operation cost.

Oh wait, I've done that already - four times, two of which were banks. What have you done IT related this year my friend?

Halo3 netted $300 million in a week, so perhaps somebody here doesn't understand the concept of cash flow -vs- long term profit prospects. I'm guessing you have some sympathy for Sony or something.


Quote:
it will be interesting to see if & when the Zunes are launched in Europe, what the EU reaction is to MS's anti-competitive practices....

Then again it's ok for Apple to incorporate all the software they want into their OS while Lawyers carrying Apple Laptops line up to sue Microsoft when MS simply wants to incorporate a media player in their own OS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrite
post #72 of 75
Quote:

In other words, it doesn't matter if MS doesn't make money back right away as long as it maintains it's software monopoly.


Sorry, not happening. I deal with global enterprise support (unlike you) and have to deal with infrastructures in those foreign countries. If it's a U.S. company pushing into that area, then you typically see a Microsoft-centric view. If it's the other way around (more likely with the dollar dropping in value) then it's focused on Open Source. Sorry...I forgot...in the Apple universe it's; Apple -vs- Evil MS and all Linux / Open source advocates are clearly on the side of Apple, right?

In another project of mine we were putting together a beta lab of entirely Open Source servers and clients to test a *zero* cost software infrastructure for a school system. The teachers union shot it down and voted they wanted to stay with MS Office - period. Maybe you can lecture them about the virtues of iWare and how evil MS is for forcing them to choose only one hardware platform. Oh wait, that's Apple. I get confused sometime.

Are you guys still ranting about how Intel sucks and Motorola is a way superior architecture? I haven't visited an Apple forum lately and while you guys were dissussing pop culture urban myths.............
post #73 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by blasterman View Post

I'll remember that the next time I kill a 10,000+ client Novell network and replace it with a Microsoft backbone, and then net a 30% reduction in operation cost.

Maybe you weren't paying attention, but the person you quoted said "except OS & office markets". I think that type of thing qualifies as within that exception, because the "network" is really about using the OS, on the server and the client.

Quote:
Halo3 netted $300 million in a week, so perhaps somebody here doesn't understand the concept of cash flow -vs- long term profit prospects. I'm guessing you have some sympathy for Sony or something.

Huh? Money is coming in, no one said it wasn't. The money coming in doesn't meet or exceed the money going out.
post #74 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by blasterman View Post

Sorry, not happening.....

Welcome to the AI forums, but coming in here lambasting and pigeonholing posters before you have firm grasp of the typical comments is just asinine. Unless, of course, you are looking to be attacked. After all, by making generalization about posters here, which you are now a part of makes you one of the people you are so rudely attacking.


PS: With Moto/IBMs slow upgrade process I think everyone is quite happy with the Intel change. The only complaint you'll hear here is regarding buying a new Mac which is updated only a month or two later. C'est la vie.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #75 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by blasterman View Post

I'll remember that the next time I kill a 10,000+ client Novell network and replace it with a Microsoft backbone, and then net a 30% reduction in operation cost.

Oh wait, I've done that already - four times, two of which were banks. What have you done IT related this year my friend?

Halo3 netted $300 million in a week, so perhaps somebody here doesn't understand the concept of cash flow -vs- long term profit prospects. I'm guessing you have some sympathy for Sony or something.

Then again it's ok for Apple to incorporate all the software they want into their OS while Lawyers carrying Apple Laptops line up to sue Microsoft when MS simply wants to incorporate a media player in their own OS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrite


Um, well, by 'failure' I meant commerical/financial failure - but your example, I think, seems to fall under the 'OS' category - which is obviously somewhat of a cash-cow for MS.

And it will take *many* Halo3s to offset the $6B lost on Xbox so far.
- which isn't going to happen as even Bungie has abandoned MS.

And you should remember that MS is a convicted monopolist - unlike Apple.

But in terms of sympathy, I do have sympathy for companies that make good products, profitably, only to be squeezed out of the market by a MS's anti-competitive business techniques. I'm not sure Sony is quite in that category yet, but you'd have to have a very short memory not to be able to name quite a few companies off the top of your head.
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