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Boycott: Not buying Leopard until those Jellybeans die! - Page 4

post #121 of 139
Gah, the last time I worked with the extras.rsrc there was only one. And now Apple has these HIGH RES versions of the GUI that they don't even use..

Yet.
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post #122 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ke^in View Post

Gah, the last time I worked with the extras.rsrc there was only one. And now Apple has these HIGH RES versions of the GUI that they don't even use..

Yet.

Yep,

I think that now it is safe to say the OS UI is not finished. From the iApps to iTunes, to the new finder, the OS has too many inconsistencies (like weird ones with the iTunes stoplights being slightly different - weird.)

There is an excellent article over at arstechnica that covers just about everything you can imagine about Leopard. some interesting things are the underlying components which clearly make Leopard the <*ahem*> "cat's meow."

However, they do point out the UI inconsistency and how Aqua does not match the new metal look. There is also an embedded video that shows Jobs introducing Aqua and how great a concept it was.

Aqua looked unbeleivably awesome for the time (and still looks good today - Vista gets raves for its new look and it is jsut a clone of Aqua).

Now, Apple is going with the metal look and if they do some work, and revamp Aqua to fit in, it could really be something. It looks like the structure is there to allow Apple to easily re-theme their UI to look however they want with simple updates.

I can't wait to see what Apple shows us in January. I had planned on buying a new MB Pro on Friday, but I think I will wait till january and see what comes out. Hopefully, Apple puts some effort into the UI to match what is in place under the hood. As it is, Leopard looks good, but it can be far better.

And I think it is safe to say that based on the number of issues users have encountered with Leopard thus far, the system was slightly rushed out the door.
post #123 of 139
Well Ars's article has a lot of stuff I've been saying in MacNN for the past month.

Facts are, it's wouldn't have been that hard to fix Leopard esp with Apple's GUI tool.

They just had all their graphics people working on the iPhone. THAT is why Leopard was late. And unfinished.

And I knew that SS and the like wouldn't work anymore. And I am sorta glad about that one. Shape Shifter kinda ruined GUI making for me.

I've been able to hack various GUI elements. So it is possible.
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post #124 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ke^in View Post

Well Ars's article has a lot of stuff I've been saying in MacNN for the past month.

Facts are, it's wouldn't have been that hard to fix Leopard esp with Apple's GUI tool.

They just had all their graphics people working on the iPhone. THAT is why Leopard was late. And unfinished.

And I knew that SS and the like wouldn't work anymore. And I am sorta glad about that one. Shape Shifter kinda ruined GUI making for me.

I've been able to hack various GUI elements. So it is possible.

Kevin,

If you can get some theming going on your system, would you mind posting screens?
post #125 of 139
Oh I wont mind at all.

I might have a few latter when I get home. If I have some time.
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post #126 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpiddly View Post

but i sort of like the look of the aqua scroll bars with leopard. It goes nice with the stoplight, which looks brighter .

I agree! The aqua bars may be dated, but it's MUCH better than changing just for the sack of change. The proposed flat-gray buttons pre-date the aqua look by many years anyway, so they would be a step backwards. If Apple is going to move away from aqua then they need to use something that looks better, not worse, like the dull, flat, gray buttons do. In any event it doesn't look like the so-called 'boycott' is working, Apple has sold over 2 million copies of Leopard in the first few days

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko

I can't wait to see what Apple shows us in January. I had planned on buying a new MB Pro on Friday, but I think I will wait till january and see what comes out.

Same here I can't wait to see what Apple introduces.
post #127 of 139
Dull flat buttons? I've heard them called elegant and easy on the eyes. They match the finder and the folders better than the scroll bars now that stick out like a sore thumb. \

Aqua is dated, and was never really that great when it came to GUI design. it was more a "oooh pretty.." type thing. It was a mess GUI wise as far as usage goes. Look at this forum's GUI. Not fancy at all. Doesn't distract from the content.

Aqua did. And still does. Apple has made it better and better and less distracting as the OSs went on, but I'm afraid it's days are numbered.

Platinum's LOOK may not be new. But in so many ways, it was ahead of Aqua in terms of usage and consistency. Which is what the computer using experience is all about.

There was a reason my Sosumi and Simple Aqua themes were so popular when OS X came out. People want less bling. Less stripes, less "candy" and more of a serious modern look.

I think Apple is attempting to cater to that.
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post #128 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ke^in View Post

Dull flat buttons?

Yes, dull boring flat one-dimensional buttons. *yawn*

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I've heard them called elegant and easy on the eyes.

So have we... ...back in 1983. LOL


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Aqua is dated

So are the dull flat buttons. That's why they need something new and fresh, but changing just for the sake of changing isn't a solution either. Apple has great graphics people. I'm sure in time they'll do what's best.


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Apple has made it better and better and less distracting as the OSs went on, but I'm afraid it's days are numbered.

I'm not so sure. They were focusing on bringing Leopard out. I think now they will spend more time on the graphics, but graphics aren't as important as functionality and getting rid of any bugs. Once everything is solid I'm sure they will add a new 'Apple' look to everything.
post #129 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyMac8MyPC View Post

Yes, dull boring flat one-dimensional buttons. *yawn*

More functional and don't distract from the content. I think some people are forgetting what a GUI is.
Quote:
So are the dull flat buttons.

Actually they aren't dated. As Apple has never used said scroll bars or buttons before. I think you are confusing you not liking them with them being dated. I didn't like Aqua when it came out, but I would have never called it dated. Pretty yes... (cept the stripes...) a good GUI in the aspect of what GUIs should be and shouldn't be? No. I'd like some examples of these "modern" GUI elements you are referring to. Ones that are both usable, don't distract from the content, aren't dated, while still looking nice. Can you show me an example?
Quote:
That's why they need something new and fresh, but changing just for the sake of changing isn't a solution either. Apple has great graphics people. I'm sure in time they'll do what's best.

Making fancy flashy graphics for a container isn't what is best. That's for the content to do.
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I'm not so sure. They were focusing on bringing Leopard out. I think now they will spend more time on the graphics, but graphics aren't as important as functionality and getting rid of any bugs. Once everything is solid I'm sure they will add a new 'Apple' look to everything.

GUI and HIG have everything to do with functionality. It's what sets Apple apart from the rest of the OSs out there.

If they lose that, then they will be no different.
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post #130 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ke^in View Post

More functional

More functional? Show me one button that doesn't work. If there were buttons that didn't function Apple wouldn't have released the OS. You're not posting facts you're posting opinions, and you expect Apple to change their operating system based on someones opinion? I'm just saying, it's not going to happen until all of the bugs have been worked out of Leopard and there's nothing else to do. It's simply not at the top of their list.

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I think some people are forgetting what a GUI is.

A GUI is a graphical (rather than purely textual) user interface.

There is no law that says that those graphics shouldn't look nice. Nadda. None. Whether they do or not is purely subjective.

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As Apple has never used said scroll bars or buttons before.

Hardly a reason to go backwards and use 1980's style graphics.

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Making fancy flashy graphics for a container isn't what is best.

That's only your opinion. Many others would disagree. Either way it's up to Apple, not us. I'd agree that making flashy graphics for the sake of flashy graphics isn't the answer, but then neither is changing the graphics - just for the sake of changing the graphics. Leopard just came out. Give them some time, I'm sure they'll do what's best for their operating system.

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GUI and HIG have everything to do with functionality.

Apple is already well aware of that

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It's what sets Apple apart from the rest of the OSs out there.

Thinking outside the box is also what sets Apples apart from the rest. If they lose that, then they will be no different.
post #131 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyMac8MyPC View Post

Yes, dull boring flat one-dimensional buttons. *yawn*


So have we... ...back in 1983. LOL



So are the dull flat buttons. That's why they need something new and fresh, but changing just for the sake of changing isn't a solution either. Apple has great graphics people. I'm sure in time they'll do what's best.



I'm not so sure. They were focusing on bringing Leopard out. I think now they will spend more time on the graphics, but graphics aren't as important as functionality and getting rid of any bugs. Once everything is solid I'm sure they will add a new 'Apple' look to everything.

By definition a rectangle is two-dimensional.
post #132 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyMac8MyPC View Post

More functional? Show me one button that doesn't work. If there were buttons that didn't function Apple wouldn't have released the OS. You're not posting facts you're posting opinions, and you expect Apple to change their operating system based on someones opinion? I'm just saying, it's not going to happen until all of the bugs have been worked out of Leopard and there's nothing else to do. It's simply not at the top of their list.


A GUI is a graphical (rather than purely textual) user interface.

There is no law that says that those graphics shouldn't look nice. Nadda. None. Whether they do or not is purely subjective.


Hardly a reason to go backwards and use 1980's style graphics.


That's only your opinion. Many others would disagree. Either way it's up to Apple, not us. I'd agree that making flashy graphics for the sake of flashy graphics isn't the answer, but then neither is changing the graphics - just for the sake of changing the graphics. Leopard just came out. Give them some time, I'm sure they'll do what's best for their operating system.


Apple is already well aware of that


Thinking outside the box is also what sets Apples apart from the rest. If they lose that, then they will be no different.


They are late on issuing the Leopard HIG. Perhaps that will have to wait until 10.5.1 is released?
post #133 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyMac8MyPC View Post

More functional? Show me one button that doesn't work. If there were buttons that didn't function Apple wouldn't have released the OS.

I am not sure you know what I am referring to when I say functional. This means the it serves it's purpose as to what a GUI should do. Not only work, but not distract, or effect the way the user views the content.
If there is colored buttons all over the place on a window where you are designing say a logo, those colors would effect your eye, and influence what you think said logo looks like. This is just human nature. GUIs should also never distract from the content they are holding. Platinum was really really great at this. It was there, and was very elegant for it's time. But you didn't notice it unless you stared at it. This is how every well designed GUI should be. One shouldn't take the riceboy approach to GUI design and think the flashier the better. The more neon, and stickers the faster it will go!
Quote:
You're not posting facts you're posting opinions, and you expect Apple to change their operating system based on someones opinion?

For one, I am not stating opinions on the GUI. And how it should work. These are guidelines Apple itself came up with. Guidelines they haven't followed in awhile. And I am hardly the only one complaining. Why do you think "Aqua" has moved away from being flashier to being a bit more mundane and less distracting? No more stripes, no more BRIGHT white windows. Things are more subdued and easier on the eyes.
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I'm just saying, it's not going to happen until all of the bugs have been worked out of Leopard and there's nothing else to do. It's simply not at the top of their list.

Now YOU are posting opinion. You don't know what is on Apple's list. Either do I. My opinion is that the OS be stable and not crash of course. But I don't think say, stacks, or coverflow was more important than having an actual unified and consistent GUI.
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A GUI is a graphical (rather than purely textual) user interface.

Well thanks for that.. I wouldn't have known that had you not told me. Again I am not sure you understand what I am saying.
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There is no law that says that those graphics shouldn't look nice. Nadda. None.

Of course I want a GUI to look nice. Useable does not = ugly. Ugly would distract.
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Hardly a reason to go backwards and use 1980's style graphics.

I don't think they are. That's your opinion. I think they are very modern and smart.
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That's only your opinion. Many others would disagree.

I assure you, a lot more people have complained about Aqua and it's usability than you think. And many others would say "Window is better" too. But that wouldn't make them right.

Again why do you think Apple keeps making it less hard on the eyes? The buttons became less OUT there. Drop shadows became more subdued. Aqua scrolls became less exaggerated. Why did they do this?
Quote:
Either way it's up to Apple, not us. I'd agree that making flashy graphics for the sake of flashy graphics isn't the answer, but then neither is changing the graphics - just for the sake of changing the graphics. Leopard just came out. Give them some time, I'm sure they'll do what's best for their operating system.

Leopard is known to have been rushed a bit. I've talked to some Apple employees that I have known for the past decade. Lots of top graphics people were pulled off the OS X "team" and was put on the iPhone "team" This lead to graphics not getting updated in time. Don't believe me? Watch the GUI updates they do. Graphics will be changing. And probably not to your liking.
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Apple is already well aware of that

But they aren't following the HIG. That's mine and many other people's complaints. Read the latest ArsTech article on teh matter.
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Thinking outside the box is also what sets Apples apart from the rest. If they lose that, then they will be no different.

This really does nothing to contradict or go against what it replied to.
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post #134 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

They are late on issuing the Leopard HIG. Perhaps that will have to wait until 10.5.1 is released?

Yeah .. no information about it's usage. As if it was rushed. They go against their other HIG rules they have released however...

10.5 just has an unfinished feel to it. Anyone that has ever designed GUIs or knows about GUI design has commented on it. ArsTech even wrote an excellent article on it.

But there are exciting things to come.
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post #135 of 139
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post #136 of 139
BTW where is "Illuminous" at?

http://www.macrumors.com/2006/12/11/...opard-refresh/



10.5 wasn't totally finished. Believe me.

And yes 10.5 was rushed

http://www.news.com/8301-13579_3-9806005-37.html

I am sure however the above does have a some to do with APE hacks. Which I hate with a passion. It's like Unsanity wants to bring extensions back in OS X. With all their hacks and problems and on the fly hacking in the RAM...

I doubt any Unsanity products work in the future. Apple recently made comments about the way APE hacks the system and how it passes through the RAM compromises it. 10.5 Blocked these hacks from working anymore.
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post #137 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

By definition a rectangle is two-dimensional.

Yes. Thank you. ...my bad. Never the less they are still flat

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Not only work, but not distract, or effect the way the user views the content.

Not trying to be funny but if Apples current buttons seem 'distracting' to a person, then they probably have other, larger issues and should probably be seeing an optometrist. The real world is three dimensional, and yet no one has a problem with that, so why all of a sudden should something that we see on our computer screen have to look old and flat? I'm just asking... It makes no sense, not in this day and age.

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One shouldn't take the riceboy approach to GUI design and think the flashier the better.

No one is saying that, but until something comes along that is better, there's no reason for them to change anything. Again, most of this is purely subjective. I have no problems with it per se, but if they changed it that'll be good too, AS LONG AS they don't go backwards, that's all I'm saying.

Quote:
Now YOU are posting opinion.

You call it opinion, I call it common sense. Do you seriously think that Apple is going to drop everything that they're doing, including fixing any bugs that may have popped up - just so that the GUI looks different? If not then we're in agreement.

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Ugly would distract.

Exactly

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a lot more people have complained about Aqua and it's usability than you think.

I don't know about that. Out of the over 2 million copies of Leopard that have been sold, I see only a small handfull of people complaining about how the GUI looks. I think Apple realizes by now that it can't please everybody

Quote:
Leopard is known to have been rushed a bit.

Which is why I'm saying that if any graphical changes are made that they'll most like come after Leopard is known to be completely stable. Let's look at this in a different light. Look at the new Finder and Time Machine features; they all have dimensionality to their appearance. Apple could have very easily have made them look dull and flat, but they steered away from that look didn't they? It would seem that Apple is NOT looking for dull and flat, and it appears that they want everything to have a more 3 dimensional look to it, which is probably why they added a deeper shadow to some items in Leopard. Now why in the world would they make everything else look dull and flat? It make no sense.

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This lead to graphics not getting updated in time. Don't believe me? Watch the GUI updates they do. Graphics will be changing.

Hmm... where have I read that before?
post #138 of 139
http://forum.notebookreview.com/show...=183337&page=3

(look a couple of posts down)

Time to rejoice?
post #139 of 139
Is there any chance someone could download and rehost the file for the scrollbars? Rapidshare is terrible and you have to wait like 3 hours before downloading another file.

EDIT: Never mind. I went to MacThemes. They have it hosted elsewhere.
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