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Boycott: Not buying Leopard until those Jellybeans die! - Page 2

post #41 of 139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

ShapeShifter

If you're going to start whining about inconsequentia, at least do your homework first. In addition to ShapeShifter, there are shit-tons of other, smaller UI tweaks. It took me approximately 84 seconds to find them on google.

I hate to have to quote myself from such a comparatively small thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland

And for those who mention Shapeshifter, I think it's really up to Apple to finished what they started, and not expect some 3rd part to come along a clean up the mess, not to mention you have to buy the app, and do the fiddling yourself, and again on reinstalls.
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post #42 of 139
... but, I personally don't mind either interface. Having been with my Mac for only a few months, I'm not as 'bored' (for lack of a better word) with Aqua as I can imagine some may be. I can see why people want change from Aqua, but it's still holds its own and looking back, I'd say it was actually ahead of its time. Above all, I'd much prefer a consistent look across the OS - whichever interface, just take one and stick with it Apple! Mail has pinstripes, Finder and Safari have brushed metal, and iTunes has the new look... why?

It makes me wonder if later on in the life of the Leopard, they'll be mixing even newer themes (e.g. when they release a new iLife/iWork) in with the current (iTunes) look. Consistency is pretty important to me, and looking at the thread, quite a few users here if only Apple would hear us

But I'm not waiting until they fix it... already pre-ordered my copy of Leopard
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post #43 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

I wonder though why they left the Aqua elements there while a replacement should be trivial from a programmatic point of view.

Here are three possible reasons:

1. They actually had analysts think about it, and decided to leave it as is for temporal UI consistency (within that app)
2. They simply didn't have the time. Any change to commercial software is not as simple as the programmatic change. It then must go through QA, etc.
3. first 2, then 1, then some product manager realized that no one would care enough to prevent them from buying the product, and that, as they say, was that.

Perhaps, also, I'm not alone in thinking that the proposed UI's are lame, and remind me of some of the chintsey window managers in KDE or Gnome.
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post #44 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

Perhaps, also, I'm not alone in thinking that the proposed UI's are lame, and remind me of some of the chintsey window managers in KDE or Gnome.

Apple could do way better than that.
post #45 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael528 View Post

... Above all, I'd much prefer a consistent look across the OS - whichever interface, just take one and stick with it Apple! Mail has pinstripes, Finder and Safari have brushed metal, and iTunes has the new look...

that is the problem. The iTunes look is now super OLD! We have had it for a long time now and just taking this old theme and making it appear all over leopard is not an innovative way of doing things and it looks a bit dated to be honest. I think it is still classy, but not all that Apple can come up with. That and the idea that they would go with that theme throughout. It looks like they missed the boat. The aqua scrollbars are still in, but in a couple iLife apps they are like the iTunes scrollbars. Just tacky. and inconsistent, which was why they went with the whole underwhelming iTunes theme to begin with - to be consistent.

I'm torn as I am excited about the under the hood features, but truthfully I am kinda bummed oabout the GUI issues.
post #46 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

If it's such a problem, then don't buy a mac, or at least write Apple a letter about it. I think we've found out from this thread that very few people actually care at all, and that certainly no one cares enough to do anything about it.

Furthermore, Apple's job is to sell computers and high tech items. "Delivering a consistent UI" is of absolutely no importance unless it affects their ability to sell computers and high tech items. Since the complaints here bemoan details which are "in the noise," it's almost certain that the financial impact of these GUI travesties is also "in the noise."

And that is how Microsoft was born. And as Apple took them to task in the early to mid 2000's by saying "good enough" is not good enough.

Apple needs to get back to what got them on the upswing to begin with. Make it special.
post #47 of 139
Anal retentive consistency is VASTLY overrated. Do interface element appearances get in the way of actually doing work? No, with the caveat that you can turn blue Aqua to grey Aqua if you do color critical work. Actually some degree of inconsistency, within certain bounds, is a good cue for partitioning tasks or working metaphors.

Not mechanically getting in the way of doing work is the measuring stick for UI success. Eye candy wiether that means it is there or purposefully not there is just decoration. The best UIs are just there and allow you to ignore them after a period of initial familiarity. I think Aqua and the related OS X widgets are for all intents and purposes at the ignorable level for all but the most nitpicking users. Nothing to be done which will satisfy all of them.
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post #48 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro View Post

Anal retentive consistency is VASTLY overrated. Do interface element appearances get in the way of actually doing work? No, with the caveat that you can turn blue Aqua to grey Aqua if you do color critical work. Actually some degree of inconsistency, within certain bounds, is a good cue for partitioning tasks or working metaphors.

Not mechanically getting in the way of doing work is the measuring stick for UI success. Eye candy wiether that means it is there or purposefully not there is just decoration. The best UIs are just there and allow you to ignore them after a period of initial familiarity. I think Aqua and the related OS X widgets are for all intents and purposes at the ignorable level for all but the most nitpicking users. Nothing to be done which will satisfy all of them.

Undermining the integrity of the argument by calling such cares anal retentive is really no counter argument at all. Only childish. True anal retentiveness would be overly fussy over much smaller matters. This is completely obvious.

Does user interface consistency issues get in the way of work? The answer is obvious. However, we are not just talking "Good enough" Microsoft style, are we. This is Apple. This is a brand new OS and UI consistency is one of the main things it is touted for bringing to the table. It fails there. That is a big deal. This is a company that fusses over trying designing a computer with no visible screw for crying out loud. this is a company that won't use certain components to maintain a certain thinness of its products.

Some degree of inconsistency so long as it is purposed, would be fine. ala brushed metal vs gradient in Tiger. Not going to the iTunes theme, but neglecting to go all the way, promising a certain look with iLife, but then failing to put the proper polish in with the rest of the OS / apps.

When designers work on the look of something, they are paid to get it right. In this case, something is amiss. Apple seems so devoted to the iPhone right now that it looks great, but the new OS is looking somewhat like a beta. It looks like a mashup of two ideas and not a proper UI design.

Now, I said I am excited about the under the hood improvements and that is true. I will probably replace my Powerbook with a Macbook Pro right after Leopard comes out so that I can have that new OS (and an intel mac - still can't believe my two year old purchase is obsolete already) ASAP. However, I will hold out hope that point releases fix the UI inconsistencies along with the inevitable bugs.

To sum up, the UI should be consistent as it is actually a major selling point and it is apple and it is a new OS. Let's just be honest here, it won't break the purchase decision for many and it won't affect performance or workflow, but it does look not quite right and it seems amateurish. You have to agree that Apple looked like they were completing the look when you saw iLife 08. That is what they should have done.
post #49 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

That's no excuse not to fix it.

But it's not broke.

All I expect it to do is sit on top of UNIX. I've used Openwin, Motif, CDE, KDE and GNOME and now that OS X comes with virtual desktops, it's all good.

All an OS does is run my apps.
post #50 of 139
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

But it's not broke.

You're right. It's just not finished.
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post #51 of 139
Wow, Someone is actualy going to boycot leopard because of that... It'll be years before you see an OS update buddy. Good luck with that.
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post #52 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

Wow, Someone is actualy going to boycot leopard because of that... It'll be years before you see an OS update buddy. Good luck with that.

I am afraid he will not need luck. Tiger will by no means have the fate of 10.0-10.1 that were quickly forgotten, because so many features were missing. Tiger will be supported for a long time with regular security updates and everything working today with it, will still work for at least three years from now.

In the beginning of this decade we had no other option but to update. With Mac OS X slowly maturing, this has changed, for the better or the worst.
post #53 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

Undermining the integrity of the argument by calling such cares anal retentive is really no counter argument at all. Only childish. True anal retentiveness would be overly fussy over much smaller matters. This is completely obvious.

Does user interface consistency issues get in the way of work? The answer is obvious. However, we are not just talking "Good enough" Microsoft style, are we. This is Apple. This is a brand new OS and UI consistency is one of the main things it is touted for bringing to the table. It fails there. That is a big deal. This is a company that fusses over trying designing a computer with no visible screw for crying out loud. this is a company that won't use certain components to maintain a certain thinness of its products.

Some degree of inconsistency so long as it is purposed, would be fine. ala brushed metal vs gradient in Tiger. Not going to the iTunes theme, but neglecting to go all the way, promising a certain look with iLife, but then failing to put the proper polish in with the rest of the OS / apps.

When designers work on the look of something, they are paid to get it right. In this case, something is amiss. Apple seems so devoted to the iPhone right now that it looks great, but the new OS is looking somewhat like a beta. It looks like a mashup of two ideas and not a proper UI design.

Now, I said I am excited about the under the hood improvements and that is true. I will probably replace my Powerbook with a Macbook Pro right after Leopard comes out so that I can have that new OS (and an intel mac - still can't believe my two year old purchase is obsolete already) ASAP. However, I will hold out hope that point releases fix the UI inconsistencies along with the inevitable bugs.

To sum up, the UI should be consistent as it is actually a major selling point and it is apple and it is a new OS. Let's just be honest here, it won't break the purchase decision for many and it won't affect performance or workflow, but it does look not quite right and it seems amateurish. You have to agree that Apple looked like they were completing the look when you saw iLife 08. That is what they should have done.

I just wanted to say you are right on with this. I can't believe Apple let the GUI look the way it did.

I was so disappointed. It could have been so much better. I've been hacking OS X's GUI to look the way I have wanted to since before the Public Betas.

The first version of Aqua was consistent, but hard on the eyes. I made a few old themes (Simple Aqua, Sosumi) to make it easier on the eyes.

Apple has finally gotten rid of Brushed Metal, and the ugly pinstripes, but it's keeping about 10% of it's other Aqua crapness.

Not only should the bars look like iTunes's new ones, the stoplights need to go. So do the other Aqua elements. They look so dated.

It would be neat if we could have scroll bars like iTunes and some of the other iApps and be able to choose colors like we did in OS 9.


Now there's an idea.
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post #54 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ke^in View Post

I just wanted to say you are right on with this. I can't believe Apple let the GUI look the way it did.

I was so disappointed. It could have been so much better. I've been hacking OS X's GUI to look the way I have wanted to since before the Public Betas.

The first version of Aqua was consistent, but hard on the eyes. I made a few old themes (Simple Aqua, Sosumi) to make it easier on the eyes.

Apple has finally gotten rid of Brushed Metal, and the ugly pinstripes, but it's keeping about 10% of it's other Aqua crapness.

Not only should the bars look like iTunes's new ones, the stoplights need to go. So do the other Aqua elements. They look so dated.

It would be neat if we could have scroll bars like iTunes and some of the other iApps and be able to choose colors like we did in OS 9.


Now there's an idea.

Excellent thoughts. It is good to know that not everyone thinks it is OK to let the sparkling new MAC OS look less than.

Microsoft poured its resources into Vista and while it is not in the totally useable stage, it does look like it is supposed to.

Leopard is awesome as far as features go and it is light years ahead of Vista. However, in one category that Apple usually dominates, Leopard falls flat. There are only a few minor tweaks that could really turn this around. It would even be better to delay the thing a month or two. My notebook has been built with unbelievable attention to detail. From the companents, performance, reliability and looks, it always leaves people impressed. Now, it will do so until it is fired up. Not cool.

I have never used themes on my Mac and never intend to, but the themes that you created are very good. just looked them up.

It would be nice if Apple made the whole OS look like Aperture. That is a UI with some class and time put into to it. Very nice. Everything looks just right and super classy. I cannot believe how
Apple can make a UI like Aperture and not either make one as good or better for the next gen OS. C'mon! Even the buttons look like the natural progression of Aqua that fits perfectly with a gradient metal theme.
post #55 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

And that is how Microsoft was born.

Microsoft was born because Gates & co. were business savvy and were in the right place at the right time. Their products have never been very good: it's not like all of the sudden, MS apps started to stink. While they have lots of business savvy, they have never been able to correctly manage a software development project. Apple has something like 6% marketshare. Making MS comparisons is just plain stupid, unless you're talking about the iPod. Of course, the iPod has always been good, and seems to continue to improve ahead of the market, so the comparison isn't particularly valid there, either.

Yes, many people can't deal with change, and hence fight against it. It's too bad for you that change is the only certainty in the universe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

Undermining the integrity of the argument by calling such cares anal retentive is really no counter argument at all. Only childish. True anal retentiveness would be overly fussy over much smaller matters. This is completely obvious.

Yes, it's beyond anal retention: it's full blown obsessive-compulsive disorder. And it is a valid argument, since it's hinged on the "you can't please all the people all the time" axiom. Crying bloody-murder because Apple is spending resources on more pivotal features instead of satisfying an impossibly small market sector -- now that's childish.
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post #56 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Good old Walter is back.

I am indeed noting of course that this is about the 4th thread you have started complaining, a criticism you leveled at me if I remember rightly, very negative, odd that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Excuse me? I have been talking about the mock-up for weeks, and I said I was going to use all elements from iTunes, which I did. He showed me his mock-up and I merely said; "no, more along these lines". The mock-ups are different, it doesn't take a genius to work that out. I'd be happy if someone took my version and said; "how about this?", and did something different.

Thats the problem though, you don't actually seem to take criticism all that well, you give exceptionally short replies and ignore or dismiss comment that isn't exactly inline with your thinking. (as will likely be noted by your 2 word or so reply to this post)
Also as Vinea remarked, you start a new thread, it seems primarily to get your own name at the top of the thread. One wonders if this is just to look good when you Digg it, or look prolific, or both? not that, that in itself is a crime, just irritating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

It's not the first time I have said that, by any means at all. As I said I used Apple's own buttons to make the mock-up. These's buttons are already present in iTunes.

Not a sneaky move at all, Flickr's stuff tends to get more diggs, and I want Apple to here us (Mac users).

Look if you are SO convinced that you have these fantastically great ideas that would send Apple to a 20%(or more) OS share then PLEASE apply for a job with them.
Is there anything actually stopping you from applying to Apple Ireland?
REALLY get in there, even if its only on the ground floor, it's a start isn't it.

Better yet, if you are so sure of your convictions go apply to Cupertino get your CV over to them, I'm sure with your skill and ambition, plus credentials, working knowledge of OSX, not to mention the obvious experience you have in UI design they would snap you up in an instant.

Lets face it, crying about what Apple do or do not include on their OS in a message board is hardly going to change the world, is it?

So get out there and get a job with Apple.


--

My real surprise at this thread is that you were SO overboard with your praise for Leopard earlier in the year, didn't you have leopard derived URLs for sale at one point? Why when you were so remarkably in favour of Leopard 8 months ago, would this one comparatively small thing irk you so much that you feel outraged enough to BOYCOTT the new OS altogether? Are the 300 plus new features not enough of an enhancment over Tiger that you could over look the scroll bars?

I ask again, is this your first major update?

--

My own take on the scroll bars is that I like them where they are, and the colour that they are, in a sea of grey I know exactly where to go looking.
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post #57 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

Microsoft was born because Gates & co. were business savvy and were in the right place at the right time. Their products have never been very good: it's not like all of the sudden, MS apps started to stink. While they have lots of business savvy, they have never been able to correctly manage a software development project. Apple has something like 6% marketshare. Making MS comparisons is just plain stupid, unless you're talking about the iPod. Of course, the iPod has always been good, and seems to continue to improve ahead of the market, so the comparison isn't particularly valid there, either.

You have just proven my point. Which is that with Leopard, Apple has sunken to the "good enough" motto that has made Microsoft so great and savvy in your opinion. And making Ms comparison is pretty smart actually. They are both software companies, they both make OS's, they both make office products, they both make..., well you get the picture by now. And I don't beleive I have ever mentioned the iPod in this thread, so try to keep up will you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

Yes, many people can't deal with change, and hence fight against it. It's too bad for you that change is the only certainty in the universe.

Well, I actually like change. When it is for the better. Most people do. It's about time you woke up to that little reality.

The fight is not against change. If you are paying attention to this thread and not suffering from attention deficit disorder, you would realize this thread is not against change, it is against sloppiness and a lack of what was promised. And if you think the ADD reference is harsh, remember it was you who took to to attacking my supposed adversity to "change" and calling my comparisons "just plain stupid." And actually your arguments don't stand up too well. But it is clear that you have not been paying attention. So um, thanks for playing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

Yes, it's beyond anal retention: it's full blown obsessive-compulsive disorder. And it is a valid argument, since it's hinged on the "you can't please all the people all the time" axiom. Crying bloody-murder because Apple is spending resources on more pivotal features instead of satisfying an impossibly small market sector -- now that's childish.

Actually, it is not even close. Obsessive compulsive disorder is what you have when you read a thread pointing out obvious inconsistencies with something as important as a desktop GUI and then feel the need to exaggerate what you believe the motives behind it are, followed by personal attacks in obvious emotional distress because you are dealing with your own fear that Apple may have actually slipped up a bit and you feel the need to alleviate that fear.

And no it is not a valid argument. The GUI is not finished. Simple as that. No one is being anal retentive at a fine restaurant by asking for a new dish and not a new dish mixed with leftovers, eh? That would not quite sit well. That is what we have with Leopard. Not quite what you want to make it out to be. Simply calling it like it is.

Everyone knows you cannot please all people all the time. this is not even about that. It is about simply finishing the job of making a brand new, heavily invested in Macintosh operating system from a company known for design savvy and attention to detail. It is quite simply actually. And yes, it is a problem if they ship it this way. Sure, it will be "good enough" just like your hero Microsoft likes to do, however, it is not typical of Apple, nor is it what we have come to expect of them. They can and they should do better. Look at Aperture and how perfect the UI comes together. Now look at leopard. End of story. They can make it great.
post #58 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post

My real surprise at this thread is that you were SO overboard with your praise for Leopard earlier in the year, didn't you have leopard derived URLs for sale at one point? Why when you were so remarkably in favour of Leopard 8 months ago, would this one comparatively small thing irk you so much that you feel outraged enough to BOYCOTT the new OS altogether? Are the 300 plus new features not enough of an enhancment over Tiger that you could over look the scroll bars?

I ask again, is this your first major update?

I don't really think he wants to boycott Leopard even though it is the title of this thread. He is simply pointing out an obvious lack of consistency in the UI. I like the look of Aqua too, but as it is currently. In Leopard, it looks like a mishmash of 2 ideas and not quite finished. Maybe some of this is on purpose. But what will never make sense is that some apps now have the iTunes bars and some don't. And there is no rhyme or reason. This is just simply and obvious error or they just need to "ship the thing."

I think he may have been praising Leopard like I was as well because there was time to overhaul the Ui and we were all waiting for the "top secret features" and just about everyone thought it would be a new UI. Instead, we have an old, used, iTunes UI with Aqua mixed in and iTunes elements in some, but not all apps.

Just because someone can point this out doesn't mean they think they are better than Apple or that they need to work there. It is simply pointing out a mistake and this is a forum where that is allowed and happens often.

Apple will be fine. Leopard will sell. But until they fix this issue, it will still be slightly unfinished.
post #59 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

that is the problem. The iTunes look is now super OLD! We have had it for a long time now and just taking this old theme and making it appear all over leopard is not an innovative way of doing things and it looks a bit dated to be honest. I think it is still classy, but not all that Apple can come up with. That and the idea that they would go with that theme throughout. It looks like they missed the boat. The aqua scrollbars are still in, but in a couple iLife apps they are like the iTunes scrollbars. Just tacky. and inconsistent, which was why they went with the whole underwhelming iTunes theme to begin with - to be consistent.

I'm torn as I am excited about the under the hood features, but truthfully I am kinda bummed about the GUI issues.

Yeah, I'm a bit surprised they have missed the boat. When it comes to making appealing interfaces from an aesthetic perspective, Apple excels. Looking at what they did with the iPhone and iPod touch, heck, even the Classic and Nano are a whole lot more pleasing to use. The whole subdued look of iTunes is looking a bit on the bland side. And we both know that Apple can come up with a lot better (because they have).

We'll see how it looks when Leopard is out, funnily enough they have not shown iTunes on Leopard recently, which leads me to think they may have an update planned for Friday... maybe they'll just revert it back to the 'jellybeans'. While not as big an issue as some are making out, it is something I will notice - a minor annoyance. Not so much as my brushed metal/pinstripe/aluminium combo I've got going on at the moment though.
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post #60 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

You have just proven my point. Which is that with Leopard, Apple has sunken to the "good enough" motto that has made Microsoft so great and savvy in your opinion. .

You never had a point. Leopard isn't out yet. You're basing your entire thesis on a singular concept: that relatively benign UI inconsistencies make Leopard unworthy. For one, you haven't seen the rest. For two, nobody has ever released a version of software that needed no improvement. Apple is no exception. I assume you don't remember 10.0.

There's a group of you on AI who seem to think Apple is the God who led the hebrews out of Egypt, parting the Red Sea for them, dropping manna from heaven, etc. No: Apple is just a bunch of guys in Silicon Valley trying to turn a profit by being usability leaders. They can't make every pixel perfect or deliver a line of machines custom-tailored to your individual desires. They live in the same world as the rest of us. Have they lost the edge? By my judgement, not even close. If inconsistent UI is such a dreadful problem, I suggest you take it up with them, while the rest of us enjoy the overall niceness of Leopard.

If Apple is indeed on a train ride straight to hell -- as you are so concerned about based on a single observation of a tiny fraction of the product -- then get off your ass and do something about it. If it's such a pandemic, then there's room for someone to profit from a solution. Be that guy instead of the disenfranchised idol worshipper.
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post #61 of 139
Does anyone else notice that the posts in this thread are predominately made by only a few users? Stop this ridiculous bickering. It seems Splinemodel is the only one who is sane. It's not even out yet and you're already complaining. You should probably see a psychiatrist if these "jelly beans" really get on your nerves enough to make you rip your hair out. Or maybe you can just realize you have OCD.
post #62 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

I don't really think he wants to boycott Leopard even though it is the title of this thread. He is simply pointing out an obvious lack of consistency in the UI. I like the look of Aqua too, but as it is currently. In Leopard, it looks like a mishmash of 2 ideas and not quite finished. Maybe some of this is on purpose. But what will never make sense is that some apps now have the iTunes bars and some don't. And there is no rhyme or reason. This is just simply and obvious error or they just need to "ship the thing."

Unfinnished is I suppose a matter of opinion

If he doesn't want to boycott Leopard, why put it in the title?

I never noticed that there were grey scroll bars in iTunes, it would seem that I don't use them and I have been in and out of iTunes a lot just recently. Bewildering that! maybe now that I have noticed them I will use them, where as with the "jellybean" effect I would have noticed them and might have used them. I find "|search" is where its at though

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

I think he may have been praising Leopard like I was as well because there was time to overhaul the Ui and we were all waiting for the "top secret features" and just about everyone thought it would be a new UI. Instead, we have an old, used, iTunes UI with Aqua mixed in and iTunes elements in some, but not all apps.

You know what thought did, wet the bed and thought it was sweating!
Hype is a wonderful thing, but people need to keep it in check. I never really thought there was going to be a new UI in Leopard so I didn't get hyped up about it to the point of EXPECTING it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

Just because someone can point this out doesn't mean they think they are better than Apple or that they need to work there. It is simply pointing out a mistake and this is a forum where that is allowed and happens often.

and just because there is one small thing that isn't up to a few nitpicking users over hyped expectations, among 300 plus new ones theres no need to blow it out of proportion. Do we know WHY its "still" there? Do Apple have a reason to keep it? Do we know if there IS a reason to keep it?

NO

Until we DO know for sure, how can we say its "broken" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

Apple will be fine. Leopard will sell. But until they fix this issue, it will still be slightly unfinished.

It will sell, I hope it sells by the container load because from everything I've seen it looks like a great improvement over Tiger and I'm REALLY happy with Tiger at the moment
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post #63 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

You never had a point. Leopard isn't out yet. You're basing your entire thesis on a singular concept: that relatively benign UI inconsistencies make Leopard unworthy. For one, you haven't seen the rest. For two, nobody has ever released a version of software that needed no improvement. Apple is no exception. I assume you don't remember 10.0.

There's a group of you on AI who seem to think Apple is the God who led the hebrews out of Egypt, parting the Red Sea for them, dropping manna from heaven, etc. No: Apple is just a bunch of guys in Silicon Valley trying to turn a profit by being usability leaders. They can't make every pixel perfect or deliver a line of machines custom-tailored to your individual desires. They live in the same world as the rest of us. Have they lost the edge? By my judgement, not even close. If inconsistent UI is such a dreadful problem, I suggest you take it up with them, while the rest of us enjoy the overall niceness of Leopard.

If Apple is indeed on a train ride straight to hell -- as you are so concerned about based on a single observation of a tiny fraction of the product -- then get off your ass and do something about it. If it's such a pandemic, then there's room for someone to profit from a solution. Be that guy instead of the disenfranchised idol worshipper.

Great post!
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post #64 of 139
Those aqua scrollbars don't really bother me. These little things are what bothers me with Leopard:
1) The 3d dock. This is worse than the regular dock (with I also don't care for and would rather replace it with taskmenubar if it was available for OS X)
2) Translucent menubar. It worked fine as is. If anything, Apple should have increased it's thickness a few pixels.
3) Inability to just shade the folders like you could do with labels in classic (and also the inability to choose what the shading (label) color should be. I can't stand it when I've labeled folders and then when you are in column view, it looks tacky and messy.
post #65 of 139
Thread Starter 
Aqua was designed to go with those translucent Macs, needless to say Apple doesn't sell them anymore. Aqua has had its day. The blue Aqua scroll bars and buttons are outdated looking. It's time for a change.

That said, the whole ''boycott'' thing was more to get Apple's attention, than anything else, and rest assured they read these forums. It's the kind of "issue" I thought they would have solved before they shipped Leopard. I do expect them to address it in a point release, it's not unified enough. I also think they are very aware of it.

Still, Leopard is clearly better then Tiger, and Tiger was the best OS in the world. Ordered my 24" 2.8Ghz iMac Friday, should be here with Leopard installed by the 30th.

Walter, yes this is my first major update, but I've used Macs on and off over the years. This piece of information seems to be very important to you for some reason. No hard feelings Walter, I'm warming to your presence.
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post #66 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

You never had a point. Leopard isn't out yet. You're basing your entire thesis on a singular concept: that relatively benign UI inconsistencies make Leopard unworthy. For one, you haven't seen the rest. For two, nobody has ever released a version of software that needed no improvement. Apple is no exception. I assume you don't remember 10.0.

There's a group of you on AI who seem to think Apple is the God who led the hebrews out of Egypt, parting the Red Sea for them, dropping manna from heaven, etc. No: Apple is just a bunch of guys in Silicon Valley trying to turn a profit by being usability leaders. They can't make every pixel perfect or deliver a line of machines custom-tailored to your individual desires. They live in the same world as the rest of us. Have they lost the edge? By my judgement, not even close. If inconsistent UI is such a dreadful problem, I suggest you take it up with them, while the rest of us enjoy the overall niceness of Leopard.

If Apple is indeed on a train ride straight to hell -- as you are so concerned about based on a single observation of a tiny fraction of the product -- then get off your ass and do something about it. If it's such a pandemic, then there's room for someone to profit from a solution. Be that guy instead of the disenfranchised idol worshipper.

Attention deficit disorder.

Simple as that. You pull out arguments out of thin air and then apply them to whomever. That is a clever way of masking the issue and of not having to actually think and reply to the stated issues and rebuttals.

I don't know anyone who doesn't think of Apple strictly as a for profit corporation. However, corporations, even in horizontal market segments, differ in their method of operations by quite a bit. Apple is a computer maker / software developer that prides itself in making products that excel and have an extremely high level of polish. Leopard lacks that. Compare to Aperture, which is simply an app.

I never said Leopard was unworthy. I even went on to praise the under the hood improvements and even that I was planning on being an early adopter. But when you can't keep up I guess you cannot be faulted for your shortcomings.

The whole point is to spotlight the fact that leopard looks unfinished and certainly is inconsistent in its looks. And I have seen all there is to see of Leopard apart from Apple internal.

Apple promised it would be different. It is not. Like I mentioned earlier, I am holding out hope that in the coming week, Apple will hold a press conference demonstrating the true new UI or address it in a point release. If not, no big deal, but it will certainly be annoying seeing these inconsistencies, knowing that it would not take that much effort to complete the look.

As far as Leopard not being out yet, I am aware of that. However, Apple just replaced their placeholder leopard stuff with what looks like the final deal leading up to launch. I don't see the desclaimer of "features subject to change" anymore either. Therefore, I think it is right to judge the product up to this point as it is what Apple is using to market it.

As far as the idol worshipping thing... dude, come back to earth.
post #67 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post

Unfinnished is I suppose a matter of opinion

If he doesn't want to boycott Leopard, why put it in the title?

To get the attention of Apple who does indeed read popular forums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post

I never noticed that there were grey scroll bars in iTunes, it would seem that I don't use them and I have been in and out of iTunes a lot just recently. Bewildering that! maybe now that I have noticed them I will use them, where as with the "jellybean" effect I would have noticed them and might have used them. I find "|search" is where its at though

Just about everyone else noticed them. Especially those who do design work. They also have been added to portions of iLife 08. It is strange that some apps that look the same have them and some don't. and using old hat is not a good way of differentiating apps, of which that is not what they are trying to do anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post

You know what thought did, wet the bed and thought it was sweating!

ooooooooK...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post

Hype is a wonderful thing, but people need to keep it in check. I never really thought there was going to be a new UI in Leopard so I didn't get hyped up about it to the point of EXPECTING it.

Apple showed it and promised it at WWDC. End of story.\

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post

and just because there is one small thing that isn't up to a few nitpicking users over hyped expectations, among 300 plus new ones theres no need to blow it out of proportion. Do we know WHY its "still" there? Do Apple have a reason to keep it? Do we know if there IS a reason to keep it?

NO

Until we DO know for sure, how can we say its "broken" ?

The problem with the "one small thing" is that it is one of the first things you see.
Based on the fact that the look has made it slowly into more apps, I would think it is safe to say that Apple means to go that way and the only reason for keeping it is running out of time. There is no way around that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post

It will sell, I hope it sells by the container load because from everything I've seen it looks like a great improvement over Tiger and I'm REALLY happy with Tiger at the moment

Agreed.
post #68 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

To get the attention of Apple who does indeed read popular forums.

"One Physical letter is worth a thousand emails or forum posts"



Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

Just about everyone else noticed them. Especially those who do design work. They also have been added to portions of iLife 08. It is strange that some apps that look the same have them and some don't. and using old hat is not a good way of differentiating apps, of which that is not what they are trying to do anyway.

I was about to make comment on the fact that you are wrong, but then realised I had made the mistake of thinking you ment iWork 08 because the blue scroll bars a deffinately in Pages, Numbers and Keynote.
I suppose this does allow your point to remain, its not across the board which is fair enough.
But then I don't understand why people complain about the brushed alu effect, I don't "see" it, possibly because I'm getting on with using the app?



Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

ooooooooK...

old quote, basically, just because people THINK something should happen doesn't mean it will.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

Apple showed it and promised it at WWDC. End of story.\

REALLY? got a link for that keynote, you'd care to share and a pointer in the direction of the time it happened at, cos I must have missed that when I was watching it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

The problem with the "one small thing" is that it is one of the first things you see.

A matter of opinion really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post

Based on the fact that the look has made it slowly into more apps, I would think it is safe to say that Apple means to go that way and the only reason for keeping it is running out of time. There is no way around that one.

So no change there then, its still happening SLOWLY, oh except that Numbers is brand new and it still has them.


--

I'm umming and ahhing about Leopard, I'm finding it REALLY hard not to buy it watched the guide last night, and there are a few things I could do with right now. but its only a few more days, read the personal experiance of others, find out what the bugs are, see if I can hold off another while. I'm not sure why I'm so keen to upgrade. I think though, as remarked in the "Road to Leopard" threads, its the subtle changes that are making me smile, while things like "Spaces" are big selling points.
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post #69 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Aqua was designed to go with those translucent Macs, needless to say Apple doesn't sell them anymore. Aqua has had its day. The blue Aqua scroll bars and buttons are outdated looking. It's time for a change.

Has Aqua had its day? mm Probably, but In the back of my head I seem to remember watching Steve unveil OSX and say "It runs on Aqua" or "runs what we call Aqua" which to my mind ment "the underlying code is referred to as Aqua" but thats a while back so I could be missremebering, I'm sure its on youtube somewhere though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

That said, the whole ''boycott'' thing was more to get Apple's attention, than anything else, and rest assured they read these forums. It's the kind of "issue" I thought they would have solved before they shipped Leopard. I do expect them to address it in a point release, it's not unified enough. I also think they are very aware of it.

If they are aware of it, then why release iWork using the "jellybeans" ?

Write a letter to Steve if you want to get his attention

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Still, Leopard is clearly better then Tiger, and Tiger was the best OS in the world. Ordered my 24" 2.8Ghz iMac Friday, should be here with Leopard installed by the 30th.

Tiger still is for a few more days at least!

So you WILL be getting Leopard then, just not buying an upgrade hardly Boycotting then, is it?

You see here is where I find you really annoying - you are getting your hands on a lovely new iMac before me, thats just so irritating as to not be funny Seriously though, I'm jealous, hope its perfect for you. The design has been growing on me recently and for some reason THIS pic speaks to me. Hope to get a look at them in person next month to see if I can overcome my current "phobia" about the glossy screen
Theres a post I'd like to see your thoughts on the 2.8 and Leopard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Walter, yes this is my first major update, but I've used Macs on and off over the years. This piece of information seems to be very important to you for some reason. No hard feelings Walter, I'm warming to your presence.

It's not important to me, it just proves what I thought, Tiger is the best version of OSX (so far) but earlier versions, as I'm sure you've read, sucked major balls in oh so many more ways than "just" the scroll bars being blue, major major BUGS in Panther/Jaguar. So it's easy to see that you have grown used to the comparative perfection/stability of Tiger. It will be interesting to see how stable Leopard is though, but I have a strong feeling it will be

No hard feelings at all and once again, I wish you great success with the new iMac.
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post #70 of 139
Somehow I don't really get the point of this discussion. I assume that it is rather easy for the MacOS programmers to redefine the looks of the buttons and scroll bars, probably just a matter of replacing some bitmaps. It seems natural for me that the design team evaluated different looks of these items, and then deliberately decided to keep the old aqua style.

Why they did it, I have no idea. Maybe they decided to keep a bit of aqua since it is so highly recognizable, or maybe they wanted to keep a few colour highlights in the otherwise dull grey UI elements. Whatever the reason, a bit of aqua will remain in Leopard, whether you like it or not.

All in all, the use of the aqua elements is not a good example of pushing a "good enough" solution on the market. If you don't like Apple's decision about this UI detail, that is just bad luck. But please, before you continue arguing, can you at least try to accept that it is simply impossible for a company to design a product that will fully accepted by 100% of the customers?
post #71 of 139
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe

If they are aware of it, then why release iWork using the "jellybeans" ?

Welcome to my side of the argument.
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post #72 of 139
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe

Theres a post I'd like to see your thoughts on the 2.8 and Leopard

I may do that, but I'd like to use it for about 3 weeks first.
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post #73 of 139
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berlepsch View Post

Somehow I don't really get the point of this discussion. I assume that it is rather easy for the MacOS programmers to redefine the looks of the buttons and scroll bars, probably just a matter of replacing some bitmaps. It seems natural for me that the design team evaluated different looks of these items, and then deliberately decided to keep the old aqua style.

Why they did it, I have no idea. Maybe they decided to keep a bit of aqua since it is so highly recognizable, or maybe they wanted to keep a few colour highlights in the otherwise dull grey UI elements. Whatever the reason, a bit of aqua will remain in Leopard, whether you like it or not.

All in all, the use of the aqua elements is not a good example of pushing a "good enough" solution on the market. If you don't like Apple's decision about this UI detail, that is just bad luck. But please, before you continue arguing, can you at least try to accept that it is simply impossible for a company to design a product that will fully accepted by 100% of the customers?

Maybe you didn't read the thread. We all like Leopard, and we all know it will never be perfect for anybody, never mind everybody. Absolute perfection is not really possibly with an OS, as they are constantly evolving.

The real point is that Steve said we'd be getting a consistent look across the board, and they didn't deliver on that promise. That point says it all. And it's not just opinion, they simply didn't do it.

There's two possible ways this paves out as far as I'm concerned. One, they didn't have enough time to finish it, so they decided on focusing on getting most of the bugs out and shipping on time, and they will slowly get rid of all Aqua in the first two or three point releases. Two, they are going to spring a surprise keynote before Leopard ships talking about the new features and the fully unified UI, they would then update all the images on the Leopard site to remove any Aqua, it was planned that way purposely.

End of the day, they very likely ran out of time, so they had to settle with all the great features Leopard has to offer, they knew they couldn't do it all, so they didn't even try to go there.
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post #74 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB View Post

I am afraid he will not need luck. Tiger will by no means have the fate of 10.0-10.1 that were quickly forgotten, because so many features were missing. Tiger will be supported for a long time with regular security updates and everything working today with it, will still work for at least three years from now.

In the beginning of this decade we had no other option but to update. With Mac OS X slowly maturing, this has changed, for the better or the worst.

No shit they will still update tiger. What I meant was if he's boycotting Leopard until Apple does what he want's, it will be a freaking millennium before he will be updating to Leopard.
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post #75 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Maybe you didn't read the thread. We all like Leopard, and we all know it will never be perfect for anybody, never mind everybody. Absolute perfection is not really possibly with an OS, as they are constantly evolving.

Maybe I didn't understand everything, but I had the impression from 9secs that he is very upset about this issue.

I can't believe the design team overlooked this detail when they settled for the Leopard look. I'd rather guess there had be some amount of discussion what to do with those aqua elements, and finally Apple decided to keep them.

And maybe my main point didn't come out as strongly as I wanted. I believe that changing the aqua look to something ordinary grey wouldn't involve much work at all. Of course, if you change it significantly, like changing the shape or size of the elements, it would be more difficult. But in that case you need to include it in the beta releases early so that outside developers can adjust their applications to the new look.
post #76 of 139
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berlepsch View Post

I can't believe the design team overlooked this detail when they settled for the Leopard look. I'd rather guess there had be some amount of discussion what to do with those aqua elements, and finally Apple decided to keep them.

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post #77 of 139
Aqua is still the underlying theme for OS 10. I think we'll still have Aqua Until Apple releases OS 11. Maybe another 5 years out. Although I think Apple will probably include a multi-theme user application (with a specific interface SDK) before that. There are always custom theme apps, but I got kernel panics from two of them and swore those things off. But, that was my personal experience. Many people use them and like it.
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post #78 of 139
"Consistent" (non-distinct) window dressing is actually a bad thing unless users are already having trouble identifying and using widgets. In this case, absolutely no users are confused or hampered by different looking buttons.

Consistency is left-over dogma from an era when widgets were actually hard to identify, understand, and use. Now that 2D interface elements have been worked out, there is little if any value in 100% identical widgets. The balance has shifted. Having distinct interfaces, while still remaining obvious, is quite beneficial. If all windows looked exactly the same, finding them while in expose becomes more difficult.

I'm not advocating aqua. Just pointing out that griping about inconsistency, in regards to anything other than aesthetics, is completely baseless and dogmatic.
post #79 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post


I'm not advocating aqua. Just pointing out that griping about inconsistency, in regards to anything other than aesthetics, is completely baseless and dogmatic.

I think most people here are griping about the aesthetic inconsistencies and not usability. Because some people actually like when things look good. Admittedly, I haven't read the whole thread so perhaps I'm wrong and people actually are griping about usability...but I know most conversations I've been in have been gripes about aesthetics. It's not a big issue but it's an issue nonetheless that was mentioned at least somewhere in this thread that Apple makes super sexy (aesthetic) hardware but doesn't put nearly the same amount of time on the GUI aesthetics. The question is why?

The answer is not obvious. I can think of a few answers but Apple and some people here would take personal offense...I mean, people always feel offended when I talk bad about Apple developers. Of course, when I congratulate the Apple devs, I'm an Apple apologist and should be dragged out onto the street and shot.
post #80 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol View Post

I think most people here are griping about the aesthetic inconsistencies and not usability. Because some people actually like when things look good. Admittedly, I haven't read the whole thread so perhaps I'm wrong and people actually are griping about usability...but I know most conversations I've been in have been gripes about aesthetics. It's not a big issue but it's an issue nonetheless that was mentioned at least somewhere in this thread that Apple makes super sexy (aesthetic) hardware but doesn't put nearly the same amount of time on the GUI aesthetics. The question is why?

The answer is not obvious. I can think of a few answers but Apple and some people here would take personal offense...I mean, people always feel offended when I talk bad about Apple developers. Of course, when I congratulate the Apple devs, I'm an Apple apologist and should be dragged out onto the street and shot.

Excellent post and one of the few that actually have anything to do with what this thread is about. you have summed up the point of this thread nicely.

Apple promised a consistent GUI. They did not deliver.

Time and again, Ireland, myself, and others have posted how the functionality of leopard is not in question, but the simple look of the GUI is.

Apple started the GUI changeover in iLife and made iMovie and iPhoto look exactly like iTunes, but forgot / neglected to put the same finishing touch to the rest of the iLife suite.

There is no good reason for this whatsoever. Then Leopard comes along and looks like the iLife apps that did not complete the new look. That is what anyone would call unfinished. Sure it has the aqua in it, so it works, but with some apps having a total new look and others having half a new look, it is half done.

Apple has done an amazing job with Leopard. Amazing. Yet, for some reason that people cannot put a finger on, it is not getting the free hype it deserves. There are people who claim that there is just something not quite right (there was a forum thread a week or two ago about the fact that Apple was about to release Leopard and yet there was no activity going on about it), but they can't put there finger on it. The devil is in the details they say and the point of this thread is to point out this particular detail. Apple creates the most amazing OS in the world that is years ahead of the competition and then gives it a facelift with an OLD theme that is halfway done. Not the Apple I am used to and not representative of what they are capable of.

I have had a thought with this though. Perhaps Apple has made it easier to update the look of the whole OS at once in point releases. For example, when Apple comes out with a new iTunes theme, they can then apply the theme to the OS in one simple step. Maybe that is crazy, but I think it is pretty smart, if they put such abilities in. Probably just a pipe dream though.

In any case, all of us who purchase Leopard are going to enjoy it. however, those of us with an eye for detail will just enjoy it perhaps 5% less. perhaps that sounds high, but I think it is accurate.

Leopard is still great, but we hope Apple finishes what they started, or does something even better. It is Apple after all.

Apple, Make it like Aperture! Put that level of polish and class into it and it will be golden.
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