Boycott: Not buying Leopard until those Jellybeans die! - Page 3

From what I remember, Apple never introduced system-wide interface changes in the past OS X releases. I would be surprised to see the trend break.


LOL, OK.

Obviously the answer is not obvious, but couldn't we let the offense take off...? I mean have you sharing your opinion.

Serious advice cooming up - when you are banging your head on the wall because you are "not getting through" step back from the wall, untill you can see the door, then, go through the door.

Why not accept the blue pill it is the way forward, or would you rather stay still?

DAMN! just deleted a perfectly good post!

anyway, the shorter version is


Thats my take on it.

--


Look forward to it {almost want to dare you to find fault with it on this thread but I really hope you love it as much as Tiger}

but i sort of like the look of the aqua scroll bars with leopard. It goes nice with the stoplight, which looks brighter .

Holy crap! Piss in the wind much?

The Buttons and sliders and other Interface Builder options will evolve as IB evolves.

Does the Behavior of the OS confuse you with these gumdrops?

Yes, the anal retentive focus on a non-problem is completely obvious. The label is completely accurate.




So you agree it doesn't get in the way. That is an admission you are nitpicking over non-functional fu-fu.


That was a hell of a non-answer. Are you running for office somewhere?

I'll admit it's important to you. It's not an issue for me, I LIKE it the way it is. Context is better highlighted this way, and unconsciously registering context lets work get done faster. Apple can feel free to continue to improve if it makes work easier to do or ancillary tasks less intrusive.

But please don't try to force Apple to change for changes sake by making false claims that the users feel its important. The users don't. You do. Big difference.

Agreed, and given that only 3 people on these forums actually care deeply, and this forum hardly represents the 'average Mac user' let's let this thread die.

I think we can all agree with 9secondko here.

I could fix the changes myself in less than 2 hours. (I'd have to brush up on my themeing, haven't did it since Sosumi)
So time isn't the deal here.

Yup, then calling the theme "Unified' and taking all Aqua elements off the web page, I mean what the hell..

But I still have hope.

http://daringfireball.net/linked/200...#mon-22-indies

"Another thing to keep in mind is that the GM version of 10.5.0 definitely contains at least some significant differences from the last version seeded via ADC to developers. Anyone taking screenshots of the Dock on the side of the screen, for example, is going to have to retake them after installing the public release."

Again... childish. And in no way a real argument. simply adjective based name calling basically. <sarcasm> Wow, that's a winner there. </sarcasm>



i agree that it does not get in the way of basic productivity. No one ever said it did. you are reaching a bit for solutions to an argument that never existed in this thread. If that is the best you can do, then you recognize that it is an issue as well, however minor. It is a big deal to someone like myself with an eye for design. Maybe for someone like yourself who can just get by it is fine and so be it, but for me and the others like me who have brought this subject up, it is simply exposing the unfinished stated of the UI.

And unless something is seriously wrong with Leopard, the scrollbars and buttons are very functional items. so your non-functional fu-fu is fu-fu in and of itself.


It is only a "non - answer" for someone what cannot understand what the argument is. If you are looking for one answer and never find it, then your simple mind reverts to "that does not compute." The answer is that the UI inconsistency is an issue because we were promised otherwise. We did not get it (unless, however unlikely, it is there in the shipping version, which does not match up with Leopards online tutorial). So basically, yeah, the UI is inconsistent and it is unfinished because of that.

Just for those of you who cannot seem to understand the points of this thread.

There was never an argument against usability, simply an argument about Apple's lack of polish in this case by shipping an OS running an amalgam of themes. The leopard theme is the iTunes them, albeit carried forth only half way. That is about it. We would like to have seen either a better theme as the iTunes theme is very old now, or at least the new theme carried to its logical conclusion and polished off. Nothing so wrong about that. Apple can do it too. But people like you just cannot understand the simplicity of the argument and so you have to try to make it other than what it is. then you get all personal. Then you have to fire back at something that was never an attack to begin with. That is not only anal retentive, but obsessive-compulsive as well.

Folks, this is simply about looks. Something entire agencies are built upon, web designers are hired and fired for, models and movie stars get casted by, Apple is known for, and something Leopard should deliver. Sure it delivers under the hood, but it mostly stops there. We expected better. The company that prides itself in building computers with only one visible or no visible screws is the company that I expect to pay attention to matters such as this. It is pretty glaring actually.

Again, hopefully, it can be addressed later. As far as those who thought the OS UI could not be addressed in a point release, they do it with iTunes, that the new Finder is based on and they were able to give the Safari theme to Windows. Apple CAN do it, it is just a question of IF they will. itunes has changed a few times. Here's hoping we aren't stuck with UI inconsistency for too long after launch.

Although it's not a huge issue enough to stop buying Leopard, it's still very annoying. We've been looking at the same theme for 7 years or so now and it's getting boring. When I first got OS X, I thought the interface was nice and slick and interesting but now it's just old.

The bubbly buttons just don't fit with the rest of the interface nor with Apple new site as someone pointed out. Look at the black scrollbar on the Mac link on Apple's site. The scrollbar even looks more at home on 10.4 than the jelly-beans.


Yeah, they had to do something about that. The 3D Dock looks terrible on the side. I wonder what they'll do to fix it though.

I never liked Aqua from day one. I wish Apple would have left the ability to have a Platinum choice like it was in DP3.

That is why I made Sosumi and Simple Aqua.

While I am upset that Apple isn't getting rid of the Aqua crap as far as I know, I know I can do it myself. So can many other people. So the option will be there.

And no, I wont be making it a SS theme. It will be an installer. I hate APE hacks.

I wont go into the fact Apple's own site doesn't have a bit of Aqua in it anymore. And they are no longer calling the GUI Aqua.

macrumors has the scoop on the new dock in the retail edition of Leopard when placed on the side.

Looks like the old one but with an outline.

Here's the scoop:

http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/23/...visual-tweaks/

WOAH! now teres a REAL inconsistency! I guess its only a matter of time before we see a boycott leopard because of the Dock type thread.

ok, a few questions 1 have you got a transcript of what steve said? not just the one line, but inplace in context please

2 have you a list of Apps that use the jelly beans and a list of the Apps that don't please?

I'm asking because I wanna understand WHY this is so much of a big deal/non problem. It seems to be on the one hand an anal retentive nit pick, but on the other a verifiable actually measurable thing.

Not childish. An accurate label of the behavior you don't like. Tough. Live with it.


Therfore it's not broken. Don't fix a phantom problem. Taking that into full consideration and your previously noted aversion to labels leads me through wikipedia for a quick lookup. <drum roll> Coursesy of wikipedia

</drum roll [rimshot]>



If it's functional, 99.7%* of everyone on the rest of the planet likes it, and the differences HAVE FUNCTIONAL VALUE, the wanking is superfluous! You don't like it! That's it. Fine don't like it, but don't expect me to like it when you try to stir a tempest in a teapot in the name of changing it.

See your problem with my posts is I read what you are saying about the UI. It's not a case of not reading or not understanding or not caring. It's a case of I read what you are writing and have such a profoundly different outlook on the correctness of it, not to mention the global or universal importance of it, that your stance is not only incorrect in my judgement but one that could reduce the contextual usability of the OS which you freely admit is not broken. Or at a minimum detract Apple from actually doing important work.

Flat out, difference in appearance is not necessarily inconsistency. That was an important statement. Important enought to repeat: Flat out, difference in appearance is not necessarily inconsistency. Not to mention that bundled applications are not strictly part of an operating system per se, and much of your wanking on the overall consistency subject is directed at bundled or additional applications, not operating system components.

Personally I want Apple interface artists and programmers working on getting the resolution independence frameworks correct, rather than tilting at old windmills only visible to a tiny minority of users.


* we bring you his exaggeration simply as _____-bait. Thanky-you and good day...

Actually, for the intelligence impaired, that is an example of a purposed inconsistency. and in my opinion, it is for the better (although some preferred the 3D style on the side.

the whole point of my post was to reply in confirmation to what another member was speculating.
that's it. Sheesh.

[QUOTE=Hiro;1162152]Not childish. An accurate label of the behavior you don't like. Tough. Live with it.

Again, Childish. You are like the old Pee Wee Herman guy - "I know you are but what am I?" Childish.


Gotta love the rimshot (the one that comes right after a bad joke - which is about the best way to characterize these vehement denials of an obvious UI issue)

It is not broken. It works. it just is not consistent and it is not finished in the sense of completing the look. For the umpteenth time, that is the whole point of this thread. Nothing more, nothing less.


Gotta love the "they're more functional because they are inconsistent" line. No, fellow forum member, they just look different. They just look old. That is about it. Scroll bars scroll and buttons push.

Getting back to the point. The fact of what the elements are will lead them to function accordingly. however, they are supposed to look different in fitting in with the new theme which started (somewhat sadly) with iTunes, carried over to a couple iLife apps and then made it halfway through in Leopard, but not all the way.


See the real problem with your posts is that although you claim to read the others, your comments have nothing to do with them or simply refuse to comment on the actual points. Instead you make up problems, biases, points, put them in other people's mouths and then proceed to try to dismantle your own argument. the irritation is you pulling stuff out of thin air and trying to apply them to whomever. A couple of post ago, I wrote pretty much the definitive post on my view which addressed your comments as well. You proceed to then "SNIP" all qualifiers out and reply to your little snippage. Which, by review of all your post on this thread is obviously the only way you read. You see what you want and respond to that. Good luck in life.



It is inconsistency when they take a certain defined theme, start applying it to Leopard, complete the look in half of the iLife apps, then... that's it. Half way there is not done. The UI, nothing else. Again, the UI is not consistent and it is not totally done. That is the scope of this thread.


And personally, I want Apple to do those things as well, while even employing one guy to polish up the UI. If it were any other company, I could almost see it. This is Apple. Enough said.




And you keep biting. Must be some good stuff.

At one time, Apple users could brag that we had a consistent GUI. And it was wonderful. GUIs are supposed to be wrappers for the content. The should never distract from the content. Before Steve came around with his million different GUIs in one OS the OS was consistent.

Here is a good article when Aqua FIRST came out. While I hated Aqua, it was at-least more consistent than 10.5, and even then there was complainers. And it's only gotten worse.

http://www.sensomatic.com/chz/gui/Aqua2.html

Consistency
Consistency is seen as one of the most essential principles in interface design. Once a user has learned how to use an interface, e.g. where to click for a special action, the learned interface should stay consistent. This should not only apply to interactions within one application, but also to different versions of one application.

Effective applications are consistent in an number of different ways. Consistency in the visual interface helps people learn and then easily recognize the graphic language of the interface. (...) Consistency in the behavior of the interface means that people have to learn how to do things such as clicking and pointing only once; then they can explore new applications or new types of features using skills that they already have.

In the OSX interface consistency rules are broken. Menus are not where they used to be anymore, the Finder and its functionality is not the same, to resize a window users now click a button on the left instead the right upper corner, etc.
Apple users are forced to learn new features and re-learn old actions, which can be problematic and confusing for them. However, novice users who have not used Apple interfaces before won´t have these problems.

When consistency is common, it is taken forgranted and the user comes to rely upon it. But when things we have learned to rely on suddenly become unavailable, it can be worse than if they never existed at all. 12

Keep the graphics of the display simple. The number of elements and their behaviours should be limited to enhance the usability of the interface. Graphics - icons, windows, dialog boxes, and so on - are the basis of effective human-computer interaction and must be designed with that in mind. Don´t clutter the screen with too many windows, overload the user with complex icons, or put dozens pf buttons in dialog boxes. 13

The Apple User-Interface Guidelines.

Apple released a guide-book called "Macintosh Human Interface Guidelines" together with their first Operating System in order to accompany users and guide software developers. Apple´s design principles and philosophy of their once so simplistic interface are described and illustrated by "how to do"- and "how not to do"- examples. Together with new Operating Systems up to OS9 Apple always updated their User Interface Guidelines. There is no such guidelines for the new OSX yet. With its overall new design-approach, the OSX interface might now force Apple to completely overthink their User Interface Guidelines, as many statements from their original book don´t seem to match anymore.


So Until Apple gets it's GUI shape in order, other people are going to be doing it for them. I know Max's version of Aqua is 10x better than Apple's. Why? His features match, and are more consistent. Smooth Stripes, Aqua, without the stripes was a theme that was better than Apple's original.

10.5 will also have people fixing it right to the way it should be. The Aqua elements will be gone for the most part. I am just glad it will be fixable.

I can't recode bugs in the OS, but I CAN fix GUI inconsistencies. I just wish I didn't HAVE to. I used to not expect this from Apple. But now it's the norm. And that is sad. I just don't want it turning into the GUI mess Vista is.

Apple used to stand out, and get GUI awards for it's design and consistency. It's just not there anymore.

While I am GLAD Apple stopped using 3 or 4 different window looks, and is sticking with one, that a lone doesn't fix the fact it looks like 3 different GUIs in one OS.

Well, one thing I think we can all agree on is that Brushed Metal is dead, and that's a good thing. Also, Apple have gotten a hell of a lot closer to a consistent look as compared to... any previous OS X release? I also like the classy side-dock. Unfortunately the default is the 3D, gee-whiz dock, but hey, I'm all about the side-dock anyway.

Well they have gotten better in that now there is only one window type for the most part.

But the rest of the Aqua elements need to go. They no longer have any on their site, on the iPhone, or in a lot of the iApps. But the Finder does. So in a way that was a step back.

I am going to modify the resources if I can (and I was told I could) in a few days to de-aquafy Leopard. So if anyone is interested...

You wont need any theming changing program to install either. I hate how SS patches resources in RAM on the fly. I can feel a hit in the GUI response.

Wow. I thought my daughter wore out the mindledd default to everything "I know you are but what am I?" gig, but I see it's alive and well. Writing just died a little bit more...

There's nothing left to be said that can't be met with more new-speak.

Ke^in -- You know that link is about the 9.2 to 10.0 transition don't you?

No, I guess you don't or you would not have cited it as currently relevant. Every one of those points is now completely obsolete due to consistency in how the 10.x series have used the GUI widgets over 7+ years and accelerations in code that fix the dog-slowness of many 10.0 GUI components.

If you are going to rage against the machine, at least make sure you are raging at a machine, not a dead tree.

Yes, yes I do. I even mentioned it. But it has relevance to Leopard too.

I suggest you re-read the link. As it all is still valid. As far as consistency goes.

Not everyone at all.

Go read the HIG. 10.5 falls far from the Apple tree. It's a hodge-podge of GUIs mixed into one.

I disagree. With the exception of Firefox (which has good reasons for not blending), everything blends pretty nicely.

Pinstripes - gone
Brushed Metal - gone
iTunes Unified - prevalent

w00t!

iTunes Unified is not present. The Finder and iTunes do not match. They use different GUI elements. Same goes with other iApps Apple has. They use different scroll bars, different buttons, different everything. If you don't believe me, open a Finder window using coverflow, then open itunes. The ONLY similarities are that they BOTH use Unified windows, and BOTH have gel "stoplight" window buttons at the top.

The more and more I use Leopard, the more and more I wish it had the iTunes look.

I am gonna get CS3 installed on this computer today and start messing with graphic resources. If I can atleast get the scroll bars different, I'd be happy.

BTW Anyone that use to run themes using ShapeShifter, don't plan on using it anytime soon, if ever.

10.5 is a bit more strict about such things. And found a sever security flaw in the way the APE architecture did things. They've pretty much broke, and blocked any ability for such things to happen.

I however, have a feeling I can still modify the GUI resources somehow. After all when Sosumi was finally, and fully done, ThemePark, nor ShapeShifter were even around

Oh I wont... I'll keep anyone updated. I am right now just messing with Leopard and learning what all the files do. It's gotten alot more convoluted. \

Just to show you how many different button style's Leopard has..





Which one do you like best? (one even looks like OS 9)

I like the first and second ones the best

If you had the dev tools installed, look at all the GUI elements that simply don't match together.

I want 10.5 to have iTunes, and the iApps GUI. Their checkboxes, the sliders, the scrollbars, the listing header images.. the list goes on.

It's going to take a lot of work to de-aquifiy Leopard. More than just the scrollbars. \

I am hoping this was just Apple rushing it out of the door.

The only way for users to use iTunes like scrollbars in their programs BTW is to use their own images like Apple is doing.

Like Apple has told developers not to do.

Do what we say, not what we do.

Applications and the Finder should look a like. Consistency matters. And it's something Apple used to be able to brag about.

While I know Vista is a worse GUI mess, I expect that from MS. I don't from Apple. Well used to not.

I have ever since brushed metal made it's appearance in OS 9.

BTW if you REALLY want to get weirded out... check out all the files in


System:Library:PrivateFrameworks:CoreUI.framework: Versions:A:Resources

Esp the Aqua AND Leopard "bundles". Check inside those.

What the..

I think it's safe to say OS X's GUI is in a transition phase right now

I think it's highly unlikely that Apple will rectify these GUI inconsistencies via a double-dot update. They certainly haven't in the past.

But here's a crazy idea for you... why doesn't someone write an UNO-like utility that finishes Apple's mess for them? You could charge $20 a pop, and if you are right, and people really do care enough about these GUI inconsistencies, then it won't be long before you're picking out your new yacht...

If Apple can't be bothered to do the job right, then why not make a little money out of it yourself?

Yes they have. Widget looks have changed in the double dots. But I was really referring to 10.5.5 or something.

I am attempting to fix Apple's mistakes for them as we speak. And I'll just give it out. Just like I did Sosumi.

So I finally figured out where iTunes was storing it's window thumb and scrollbar images.

It has PNGf resources that you can see if you open them in Resourcerer. Well if you create a new document, and paste that png data fork into a new file, then save it as a PNG, you get the image that is hard coded.

This might be easier than I thought.