or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPhone › Report: iPhone world share limited by revenue deals
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Report: iPhone world share limited by revenue deals - Page 2

post #41 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

You are lost here. These are NOT publicly owned airwaves. Each of these companies has paid billions to the various government for their share of the spectrum. This isn't like broadcast Tv and radio. Even that's disappearing. Governments have realized that they can make a lot of money by auctioning off this spectrum. Digital Tv is going this way as well.

Haven't you read any of this over the years?

I'm talking about how things should be, not the sleazy way things are. But nevertheless, note what you've just said about who's being paid: the various governments.

Governments are the ones who decide who gets what part of the spectrum, for how long and under what terms. Governments have that job because they are administering a public trust. If our governments are simply going for the biggest bucks they can get, and not trying to enforce terms favoring consumers at the same time, that's exactly the problem I'm complaining about, and why I think the laws should be changed.

If government has sold out on us by merely looking for the highest bidder and nothing else, isn't watching out for the interest of the general public when they dole out pieces of the broadcast spectrum, that's not going to make me feel any particular sympathy for "these companies" which have "paid billions" if they think they now own the right to abuse the power that their share of the spectrum gives them.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #42 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

I'm talking about how things should be, not the sleazy way things are. But nevertheless, note what you've just said about who's being paid: the various governments.

Governments are the ones who decide who gets what part of the spectrum, for how long and under what terms. Governments have that job because they are administering a public trust. If our governments are simply going for the biggest bucks they can get, and not trying to enforce terms favoring consumers at the same time, that's exactly the problem I'm complaining about, and why I think the laws should be changed.

If government has sold out on us by merely looking for the highest bidder and nothing else, isn't watching out for the interest of the general public when they dole out pieces of the broadcast spectrum, that's not going to make me feel any particular sympathy for "these companies" which have "paid billions" if they think they now own the right to abuse the power that their share of the spectrum gives them.

The governments are mostly going for the big bucks.

Sure, they must decide what the spectrum is being used for, but beyond that, no. And they shouldn't be.
post #43 of 85
Reality is the way things should be. A ton of influences has gone into making it exactly what it is. You really don't want to mess with reality.

Read "The Monkey Paw" by William Wymark Jacobs.
post #44 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Sure, they must decide what the spectrum is being used for, but beyond that, no. And they shouldn't be.

Why "shouldn't be"? There's a limited public resource being doled out on behalf of the public. "The public" has many and varied interests which need to be represented in such a deal. Getting the biggest boost for government coffers is hardly the only interest the public has.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #45 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

You really don't want to mess with reality.

Those hackers you can't stand are part of reality too.

But yes, let's let the moneyed interests and power brokers have their way. God forbid we try to mess with the optimal world they have created for us. We should be grateful, feel lucky that we get what we get, and be good little consumers respecting and following all of their wise rules.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #46 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Reality is the way things should be. A ton of influences has gone into making it exactly what it is. You really don't want to mess with reality.

Read "The Monkey Paw" by William Wymark Jacobs.

Actually, reality is the way things ARE, not the way they should be. Is that what you meant?
post #47 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

Those hackers you can't stand are part of reality too.

But yes, let's let the moneyed interests and power brokers have their way. God forbid we try to mess with the optimal world they have created for us. We should be grateful, feel lucky that we get what we get, and be good little consumers respecting and following all of their wise rules.

Cute!

But you miss the point here. If people didn't buy the phone, Apple would be forced to understand why. They would then either change their policy, which wasn't working, of be forced to discontinue the product, and perhaps come up with a better one.

In the end, the consumer has the power, unlike what you are saying, but not for the reasons you think they should.
post #48 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Actually, reality is the way things ARE, not the way they should be. Is that what you meant?

Things are the way they should be. The way things are - reality - is the result of every influence.. every personality, every interest, all concerns thrown into a bowl and stirred.

"The way things should be" is a personal perspective and fails to consider someone elses personal perspective.

The philosophy of "The way things should be" led to the "Little Red Book", for instance...
post #49 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But you miss the point here. If people didn't buy the phone, Apple would be forced to understand why. They would then either change their policy, which wasn't working, of be forced to discontinue the product, and perhaps come up with a better one.

In the end, the consumer has the power, unlike what you are saying, but not for the reasons you think they should.

If people won't buy the iPhone because they can only use it with AT&T, then what might happen is that Apple, and consumers who'd like an iPhone to use with another carrier, might simply be screwed for the next five years, depending on how firmly Apple is locked into its contract with AT&T, and what escape clauses they might have set aside for themselves.

(I wonder which is harder to do? Breaking Apple's SIM lock, or breaking out of a contract with AT&T? )

Consumers certainly have some power here -- please don't overstate what I'm saying a false no-power/all-power dichotomy. But they have power on uneven terms, and their choices are therefore among the artificially restricted range of options that the current market provides.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #50 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

That would rock in the beginning and devolve into a legal quagmire. I'd rather the phone manufacturer and the service provider stay separate.

There is no legal "Gigitty, Gigitty, Gigitty" about Apple having Mac HW that works exclusively with their ,Mac service. But I see your point. Someone in America will sue.

There are plenty of MVNOs that use GSM netowrks with no removal SIM card. These are hardwired in and therefore have to be used on their network. Still, someone in America will sue.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #51 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

If people won't buy the iPhone because they can only use it with AT&T, then what might happen is that Apple, and consumers who'd like an iPhone to use with another carrier, might simply be screwed for the next five years, depending on how firmly Apple is locked into its contract with AT&T, and what escape clauses they might have set aside for themselves.

(I wonder which is harder to do? Breaking Apple's SIM lock, or breaking out of a contract with AT&T? )

Consumers certainly have some power here -- please don't overstate what I'm saying a false no-power/all-power dichotomy. But they have power on uneven terms, and their choices are therefore among the artificially restricted range of options that the current market provides.

If people didn't buy the phone because they weren't happy with what Apple had done, then they wouldn't be screwed, because the phone wasn't the right product for them. The talk of being "screwed" is off the wall. Being screwed is when you hire a contractor to work on your house, and he walks away with your money without finishing the job.

Not buying a product that fails your needs test is not being screwed.
post #52 of 85
Quote:
Like not paying for ringtones for example?

Why do you guys keep bringing up ring tones as though Apple owns the music. Apple does not own the intellectual rights and does not have the legal ability to give it away for free.

Quote:
Whereas many of us are just simply waiting for Apple to add features to the iPhone we've already got with $30 phones you can get from a supermarket with cheap or no contracts and the ability to choose our own carrier

You forget to mention that many of the phone have terrible UI's. And the features are buried in submenus to the point they become near useless.

Quote:
Which at the moment seems to be at our expense, not of the carrier or Apple. Thanks Steve for really breaking the lock carriers had on our phones.

I have more functionality on my phone or pay a cheaper rate for the same amount of functionality than many people I know with smart phones.

Quote:
Many of you in the US do not appreciate how crazy Apples apparent strategy for the iPhone in Europe seems to us.

I said in my statement above that I could not speak for Europe, but what Apple is doing is good in the US. If you in Europe feel the phone is a bad deal don't buy it. But the reality is that people will buy it.

Quote:
The talk of being "screwed" is off the wall.

Really, if you buy a product fully knowing what it does but complain that you want it to do something different. The only reason you are screwed is because you are an idiot.
post #53 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Why do you guys keep bringing up ring tones as though Apple owns the music. Apple does not own the intellectual rights and does not have the legal ability to give it away for free.

It is within Apple's power, however, to design a phone which allows you use any piece of music you already have in iTunes as a ringtone. There most certainly is NOT any legal barrier to that.

Treating a ringtone as a special category of audio material which requires separate purchase, with limitations on which bits of audio you can do that with, is a deliberate design choice on Apple's part, requiring extra effort to impose artificial barriers.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #54 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

Treating a ringtone as a special category of audio material which requires separate purchase, with limitations on which bits of audio you can do that with, is a deliberate design choice on Apple's part, requiring extra effort to impose artificial barriers.

You are so completely wrong. By the RIAA's reckoning you aren't even allowed to make a copy of an audio CD and transport it to another format like MP3 without violating federal laws. Crazy huh?

Seriously you should think about it for a moment. Apple could care less if you edit all your music into annoying ringtones. It's the record companies that are preventing them and, frankly, the $0.99 fee and nifty iTunes editor is much better than you get from anyone else.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #55 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

If people didn't buy the phone because they weren't happy with what Apple had done, then they wouldn't be screwed, because the phone wasn't the right product for them. The talk of being "screwed" is off the wall. Being screwed is when you hire a contractor to work on your house, and he walks away with your money without finishing the job.

Not buying a product that fails your needs test is not being screwed.

I simply mean "screwed" in the sense "Damn, it sure would have been nice to have all that other neat stuff an iPhone does if I didn't have to swallow being stuck with AT&T as part of the deal."

In much the same sense one might say, "If you were hoping for the Yankees to win the series this year, well, now you're screwed."

Not in the "Oh! Poor me! I've been victimized!" sense that TenoBell seems to have picked up and then ran with.

What I favor is, in exchange for the rights to use broadcast spectrum that our various governments grant to carriers and cellphone manufactures, is enforced compatibility and service mobility. Phenomena like the Apple/AT&T exclusive deal is not a pure free-market outcome, but one that reflects the leverage of power in a somewhat rigged game.

By the way, I personally have an iPhone with AT&T service, and I'm fine with what I've got, but I understand why others might want other choices, and I don't care much for the system that limits those choices.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #56 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You are so completely wrong. By the RIAA's reckoning you aren't even allowed to make a copy of an audio CD and transport it to another format like MP3 without violating federal laws. Crazy huh?

Seriously you should think about it for a moment. Apple could care less if you edit all your music into annoying ringtones. It's the record companies that are preventing them and, frankly, the $0.99 fee and nifty iTunes editor is much better than you get from anyone else.

Fortunately for us, the RIAA's blustering about the law and the actual meaning of the law aren't the same thing -- at least not yet, at least not in all countries. I think Australians, as an example, do have to put up with the bullshit of it being truly illegal to rip your own CDs, but even then, that's an interpretation of the law that's pretty roundly ignored. In the US, there's not the slightest thing illegal about installing music as a ringtone that you've already purchased legally once.

Even if it was illegal to, say, rip a CD and make a ringtone from it, it doesn't necessarily follow that Apple is legally obligated to install barriers against that. Apple doesn't disable CD ripping on Macs sold in Australia. It's up to the individual Australian citizen to refrain (or not) from taking advantage of their Mac's ripping capability.

As for "the $0.99 fee and nifty iTunes editor is much better than you get from anyone else" , that is certainly not true. I still have my previous phone (one of these), which I purchased as an unlocked phone, and I can freely able to install any audio I like as a ringtone, for no extra charge, from a much larger selection of music and sound effect than Apple provides.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #57 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

It is within Apple's power, however, to design a phone which allows you use any piece of music you already have in iTunes as a ringtone. There most certainly is NOT any legal barrier to that.

Treating a ringtone as a special category of audio material which requires separate purchase, with limitations on which bits of audio you can do that with, is a deliberate design choice on Apple's part, requiring extra effort to impose artificial barriers.

totally wrong. Have you been following this conversation over several stories during the past month, or so?

If so, then you would know that Apple has no say over these songs, as Apple doesn't own the copyrights, just like you.

The songs are allowed to be used for a music download that doesn't include ringtomes. That's what the copyright owners specify everywhere. You must pay them for use as a ringtone.

You might not like it because there are some small programs that allow you to break the copyrighted use allowed. But it's wrong, and you are breaking your contract with Apple if you use them in such a way.
post #58 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

I simply mean "screwed" in the sense "Damn, it sure would have been nice to have all that other neat stuff an iPhone does if I didn't have to swallow being stuck with AT&T as part of the deal."

That's not being screwed. That's being disappointed that a product doesn't do all that you'd like it to.

Quote:
In much the same sense one might say, "If you were hoping for the Yankees to win the series this year, well, now you're screwed."

no. If you were conned into buying Yankees pennent tickets, then you would be screwed. Being disappointed isn't being screwed.

I'm a Met fan. They screwed up at the end of the year. That a screwup. But, I wasn't screwed.

Quote:
Not in the "Oh! Poor me! I've been victimized!" sense that TenoBell seems to have picked up and then ran with.

That what being screwed means.

Quote:
What I favor is, in exchange for the rights to use broadcast spectrum that our various governments grant to carriers and cellphone manufactures, is enforced compatibility and service mobility. Phenomena like the Apple/AT&T exclusive deal is not a pure free-market outcome, but one that reflects the leverage of power in a somewhat rigged game.

In the US at least, we generally don't like the government to interfere too much with what goes on. Paradoxically, that usually even means if it badly impinges on us.

Look at health care. People want it, but many, if not most, don't want the government to run it the way Europeans do. Many people would rather suffer with the way it is instead.

leverage of power in a "somewhat rigged game" (whatever that means) is capitalism.

Quote:
By the way, I personally have an iPhone with AT&T service, and I'm fine with what I've got, but I understand why others might want other choices, and I don't care much for the system that limits those choices.

Then don't support it by buying the products.
post #59 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

Fortunately for us, the RIAA's blustering about the law and the actual meaning of the law aren't the same thing -- at least not yet, at least not in all countries. I think Australians, as an example, do have to put up with the bullshit of it being truly illegal to rip your own CDs, but even then, that's an interpretation of the law that's pretty roundly ignored. In the US, there's not the slightest thing illegal about installing music as a ringtone that you've already purchased legally once.

Even if it was illegal to, say, rip a CD and make a ringtone from it, it doesn't necessarily follow that Apple is legally obligated to install barriers against that. Apple doesn't disable CD ripping on Macs sold in Australia. It's up to the individual Australian citizen to refrain (or not) from taking advantage of their Mac's ripping capability.

As for "the $0.99 fee and nifty iTunes editor is much better than you get from anyone else" , that is certainly not true. I still have my previous phone (one of these), which I purchased as an unlocked phone, and I can freely able to install any audio I like as a ringtone, for no extra charge, from a much larger selection of music and sound effect than Apple provides.

Apple has contracts with the content suppliers. There is no way that Apple would get those contracts for this kind of business of supplying content without being required to do everything in its power to prevent disallowed usage. That's what the DRM is there for. It's nice that Apple is trying to get rid of it (though they don't seem to be trying that hard), but they still are required to prevent that unauthorized use. If they don't, the content company's can pull their content.

This is pretty standard. It's out of Apple's hands.

You should be talking about how great it is that Apple has gotten the price down so low, and has not put a timer on the ringtones the way everyone else does. That was quite a concession Apple got from their content providers, though they couldn't yet convince them to allow every song as a ringtone.

Think in steps. Don't expect everything all at once.
post #60 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Think in steps. Don't expect everything all at once.

But... but ... instant gratification is the "New American Way™"!
post #61 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That's not being screwed.

Please. I can understand a bit of misunderstanding about how I was using the word, but trying to defend one and only one take on what "screwed" means as the ultimate and definitive meaning is kind of silly. I've heard plenty of people use the term "screwed" to simply mean "disappointed" (in the sense of forced to face or deal with disappointment) or "shit out of luck".

Perhaps we need someone else in this thread insisting that being "screwed" must involve sexual intercourse or small mechanical fasteners featuring spiral threads.

Quote:
In the US at least, we generally don't like the government to interfere too much with what goes on. Paradoxically, that usually even means if it badly impinges on us.

Who's the "we" of whom you speak? I'm not pretending to express anything other than my own opinions. I'm not trying be the voice of the American collective, or to pretend to know definitively what that composite voice is saying.

On the other hand, I'm willing to stand by my opinions, but it would take a long, far-ranging, and lengthy discourse to fully elaborate the theories of government behind those opinions.

Quote:
Look at health care.

It's like looking at a train wreck.
Quote:
People want it, but many, if not most, don't want the government to run it the way Europeans do. Many people would rather suffer with the way it is instead.

Hopefully "many people" are finally waking up, and that will change.

Quote:
leverage of power in a "somewhat rigged game" (whatever that means) is capitalism.

My respect for capitalism is akin to what Churchill said about democracy: the worst possible system... except compared to all of the others we've tried.

Besides, there are many flavors of capitalism, from near socialism to laissez-faire, robber-baron capitalism. These days I think we're leaning a bit too close to the latter extreme. There's plenty of cronyism too, which is certainly not a true free-market force.

Quote:
Then don't support it by buying the products.

Hey, how about I decide which buttons and levers to push and pull to effect what I'd consider to be beneficial changes? Many of the changes I'd like to see are beyond what market pressure -- certainly the humble effects of my own individual purchase decision -- can affect.

Are you attempting to create a false dilemma where the only two choices are to buy into, accept, and support "the system" just as it is, in order to avail yourself of any of the good things it provides, or to otherwise completely "opt out" of any purchase you deemed tainted in the slightest, until you're living in the woods and growing your own food to escape the system?
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #62 of 85
Why would the iPhone factor so heavily in terms of long term outlook for AAPL?
Did they not look at the market growth of Apple's core business or the onslaught of Xservers invading fortune enterprises? It's as if even major firms are purposely overlooking the entire backbone of Apple's success and future growth on purpose. I think they are trying to keep stock level into earnings by focusing on only one VERY narrow minded angle regarding the iPhone.

Do they really think, in their arrogance, that Apple has not already thought about having their devices in the palms of every human on this planet? iPhone, as currently designed/priced/marketed...is the only very very tiny tip of the iceberg... the future will hold tens of devices at ALL price/market levels designed for EVERY consumer level and/or any carrier, as required.

All the profits this guy complains about go to R&D and/or market acquisition. Have some foresight for crying out loud. It's not like we're talking about Chiquita and whether the banana will make it in Russian markets. This is an evolving onslaught of new technology destined to redefine the very experience of what it means to utter the words 'personal electronics' and 'mobile intercommunications'.

To say NOTHING of media distribution, lol!

Get a grip!
post #63 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Apple has contracts with the content suppliers. There is no way that Apple would get those contracts for this kind of business of supplying content without being required to do everything in its power to prevent disallowed usage. That's what the DRM is there for. It's nice that Apple is trying to get rid of it (though they don't seem to be trying that hard), but they still are required to prevent that unauthorized use. If they don't, the content company's can pull their content.

This is pretty standard. It's out of Apple's hands.

I was merely replying to what solipsism was saying about the RIAA and the law. Apple's contractual obligations are quite another thing from it being outright illegal to use your own music as a ringtone. That's a useful distinction to make.

Quote:
You should be talking about how great it is that Apple has gotten the price down so low, and has not put a timer on the ringtones the way everyone else does. That was quite a concession Apple got from their content providers, though they couldn't yet convince them to allow every song as a ringtone.

Apple is like a movie theater that sells for $3 the same box of Jujubes that you can buy at a convenience store for $1. It is perhaps slightly laudable if the majority of other theaters get away with selling Jujubes for $5, but you'll have to pardon me if my appreciation for such a distinction is tepid at best.

Quote:
Think in steps. Don't expect everything all at once.

Please point to the place where I stated any demands or expectations for anything at all in any kind of time frame.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #64 of 85
Quote:
Apple is like a movie theater that sells for $3 the same box of Jujubes that you can buy at a convenience store for $1. It is perhaps slightly laudable if the majority of other theaters get away with selling Jujubes for $5, but you'll have to pardon me if my appreciation for such a distinction is tepid at best.

Apple is not the one in control of that. I agree the whole ringtone racket is a rip off which I one reason I don't buy them. The other reason is that having to hear "everybody wang chung tonight" as a phone ring is highly annoying and not the way music was intended to be used.
post #65 of 85
Once again, I disagree with an analyst.

I don't think he's considering that apple has barely entered the mobile phone market and that apple's long-term strategy is probably much different.

Just how quickly can Apple ramp up their mobile-phone business without getting in over their heads? Think about staffing their manufacturing and support facilities. Employees must be brought on board at a reasonable pace such that people can be trained, procedures perfected, and management gets a grasp on how well everything is working.

The same is true for interfacing the iPhone with a bunch of carriers. If apple had attempted to support all of them at the initial launch, there would have been a much higher chance of technical catastrophes and mayhem on the support lines.

I'd characterize the iPhone roll-out as possibly the most impressive entrance a company has ever made into the mobile phone market. Yet you wouldn't know it from reading analyst opinions.
post #66 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Apple is not the one in control of that. I agree the whole ringtone racket is a rip off which I one reason I don't buy them.

The analogy isn't utterly perfect, abut Apple is making extra money through the iTunes store on the ringtone scheme too, and it's anybody's guess whether Apple favors this scheme themselves or is merely conceding to pressure from record labels and/or AT&T.

Please substitute for "Apple" "the end result of the deal between Apple, AT&T, and possibly an array of record labels" if you want a terribly long-winded but perhaps more accurate analogy.

Quote:
The other reason is that having to hear "everybody wang chung tonight" as a phone ring is highly annoying and not the way music was intended to be used.

If I weren't talking about abstract consumer advocacy, but more like "If I were king of the world!", I'd enforce a complete ban on all musical ringtones, with public flogging for violations.

The only (very nerdy!) use I've ever made of customizable ringtones was to put some Star Trek TOS sound effects on my phone. The main ringtone was that "oooo-EEEEEEE-ooo" paging sound used for the shipboard comm system, and text messages sounded like tribbles.

These were very quick, short sounds, and although you can always find someone who'll be annoyed at anything, I think they were fairly unobtrusive compared to the average ringtone fair. I'd put those same ringtones back on my iPhone now... but I can't. Even if I could stomach the stupidity of paying $0.99 for a ringtone made from music I already validly own -- and I can't stomach that -- I rather doubt my preferred choices are available through iTunes anyway.

That's hardly reason enough not to buy an iPhone, however, to give up all that's good about an iPhone, but that doesn't mean the choice of "Great Safari browser, but no ringtones that I want" vs. "My choice of ringtones, but only with a suck-ass web browser" is a great set of choices.

And no... for all of those who are so, so, SO VERY EAGER to pounce on any comments like this with something snarky like "Boo hoo! Grow up! You can't get everything you want!", please realize that there's a big difference between a spoiled-brat sense of entitlement to everything one wants, and merely not liking the choices one has and the market conditions that cause such limitations of choices. There's a big difference between expecting Burger King to sell you a Big Mac, or expecting a $20 car that gets 200 mpg, and being dissatisfied with limitations that are completely and totality artificially imposed.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #67 of 85
Quote:
The analogy isn't utterly perfect, abut Apple is making extra money through the iTunes store on the ringtone scheme too, and it's anybody's guess whether Apple favors this scheme themselves or is merely conceding to pressure from record labels and/or AT&T.

Its been shown in financial reports that iTunes mostly breaks even to making a small profit for Apple. Apple gets about 30 cents of the 99 cents with that has to bear the financial burden of updating/supporting iTunes, bandwidth charges, credit card charges and so on. Which does not leave much for profit. Apple is really in it to sell the iPod and iPhone.
post #68 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Apple is not the one in control of that. I agree the whole ringtone racket is a rip off which I one reason I don't buy them. The other reason is that having to hear "everybody wang chung tonight" as a phone ring is highly annoying and not the way music was intended to be used.

Heh... how did Wang Chung intend it?
post #69 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

Please. I can understand a bit of misunderstanding about how I was using the word, but trying to defend one and only one take on what "screwed" means as the ultimate and definitive meaning is kind of silly. I've heard plenty of people use the term "screwed" to simply mean "disappointed" (in the sense of forced to face or deal with disappointment) or "shit out of luck".

Then say disappointed. Saying screwed puts the fault on someone else, when it's not that at all. It's your own expectations that weren't met. Apple didn't screw you, because they never promised what you wanted. If anything, it's your own expectations that screwed you.

Quote:
Perhaps we need someone else in this thread insisting that being "screwed" must involve sexual intercourse or small mechanical fasteners featuring spiral threads.

No, you're using the term incorrectly.

Quote:
Who's the "we" of whom you speak? I'm not pretending to express anything other than my own opinions. I'm not trying be the voice of the American collective, or to pretend to know definitively what that composite voice is saying.

On the other hand, I'm willing to stand by my opinions, but it would take a long, far-ranging, and lengthy discourse to fully elaborate the theories of government behind those opinions.

The we is the majority of the US public who have shown a dislike for that.

Quote:
It's like looking at a train wreck.

Well yes, that's what I mean. But the American public has shown that it doesn't want care to be better, if it means the government takes it over.

Quote:
Hopefully "many people" are finally waking up, and that will change.

We'll see after the next election.

Quote:
My respect for capitalism is akin to what Churchill said about democracy: the worst possible system... except compared to all of the others we've tried.

I can agree with that.

Quote:
Besides, there are many flavors of capitalism, from near socialism to laissez-faire, robber-baron capitalism. These days I think we're leaning a bit too close to the latter extreme. There's plenty of cronyism too, which is certainly not a true free-market force.

There's never been true laissez-faire capitalism anywhere. There was always some restraints.

Quote:
Hey, how about I decide which buttons and levers to push and pull to effect what I'd consider to be beneficial changes? Many of the changes I'd like to see are beyond what market pressure -- certainly the humble effects of my own individual purchase decision -- can affect.

Are you attempting to create a false dilemma where the only two choices are to buy into, accept, and support "the system" just as it is, in order to avail yourself of any of the good things it provides, or to otherwise completely "opt out" of any purchase you deemed tainted in the slightest, until you're living in the woods and growing your own food to escape the system?

That's certainly an oversimpification.

If there were no other phones out there, then you would be right about that. But, as there are plenty of phones out there, that position is wrong. There are plenty of gradations between nothing, and the iPhone.

Read what Aegis says. According to him, there are several phones that are better than the iPhone. So, this is not a simple yes or no choice.

Either the iPhone and ATT, or no phone and no cell service. That's not true at all.
post #70 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

Apple is like a movie theater that sells for $3 the same box of Jujubes that you can buy at a convenience store for $1. It is perhaps slightly laudable if the majority of other theaters get away with selling Jujubes for $5, but you'll have to pardon me if my appreciation for such a distinction is tepid at best.

No, Apple is like the discount store that let's you buy items for $0.99 that everyone else sells for $2.49 to $3.49, and then takes away after 3 months to a year after you "bought " it.

Quote:
Please point to the place where I stated any demands or expectations for anything at all in any kind of time frame.

Your expectations that Apple should be giving ringtones away for free is the one we're talking about here. I don't have to go further back.

What I meant is that now that Apple has given ringtones for $0.99, lets you use any portion, which other companies don't normally allow, and lets you keep those tones, rather than removing them after a certain period, as everyone else does, you should consider this to be a breakthrough, which it is, and wait to see what happens down the road.
post #71 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Your expectations that Apple should be giving ringtones away for free is the one we're talking about here. I don't have to go further back.

I voiced a preference, not an expectation, for being able to use as ringtones music (to be more accurate in my own case, sound effects) that I have already purchased on CD, involving absolutely nothing, free from Apple or purchased from Apple, apart from a wish (again, not an expectation) for their inaction in fighting against me adding my own ringtones.

Christ, you'll argue pedantically over casual, slangy use of the word "screwed", used in an ironic fashion, and then confuse expectation with desire? I see no way via an explanation of humor, casual usage, slang, irony, or poetic license to justify that confusion.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #72 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

But... but ... instant gratification is the "New American Way"!

(I think) melgross is American. So, it sort of disproves your point.....

PS: I don't think he has even bought an iPhone yet!
post #73 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

I voiced a preference, not an expectation, for being able to use as ringtones music (to be more accurate in my own case, sound effects) that I have already purchased on CD, involving absolutely nothing, free from Apple or purchased from Apple, apart from a wish (again, not an expectation) for their inaction in fighting against me adding my own ringtones.

I think your comment quoted below, expresses a bit more than just the preference you are claiming, don't you?

Quote:
Even if I could stomach the stupidity of paying $0.99 for a ringtone made from music I already validly own -- and I can't stomach that...

Quote:
Christ, you'll argue pedantically over casual, slangy use of the word "screwed", used in an ironic fashion, and then confuse expectation with desire? I see no way via an explanation of humor, casual usage, slang, irony, or poetic license to justify that confusion.

As to who's arguing pedantically, well, that depends on where you stand, I guess.

But your expression was clearly made in frustration and anger. If you re-read your statements, you will see that. I wasn't the only one to pick up on it. Perhaps you couldn't tell when you wrote it.

But, it's a boring issue at this point.
post #74 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

(I think) melgross is American. So, it sort of disproves your point.....

PS: I don't think he has even bought an iPhone yet!

Yes, I'm from NYC as is in the byline. I've not bought the phone yet, as is well known here, for the issues I've stated. I've gotten rocked on the fact that I HAVEN'T bought one. so, I'm being hit from both sides.
post #75 of 85
as far as ringtones, don't they already cost 3-5 dollars, so you would save at least 1-3 dollars, and more if you switched from another carrier...that's value. you can then cut the song the way you want... also i bought my wife for $20 software that allows me to make any ringtone from any music including itunes, i got it at an apple store, it also allows me to resize a iphoto picture and send it to the phone. granted it's one software for each phone. i think it's a deal i'll find out the name and post it. when at&t offers free ringtones i get them, i got the star spangled banner for my morning wake up alarm

oh yea----"pedantically" Marked by a narrow focus on or display of learning especially its trivial aspects

A pedant, or pædant, is a person who is overly concerned with formalism and precision, or who makes a show of learning. The corresponding (obsolete) female noun is pedantess.



cool word use. we used that alot in academia, and downtown chicago
I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
Reply
I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
Reply
post #76 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

(I think) melgross is American. So, it sort of disproves your point.....

PS: I don't think he has even bought an iPhone yet!

As am I.

There's still a pervasive culture of instant gratification and personal entitlement in the US.

I blame the liberals.
post #77 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oh Blah Dee Blah Dah View Post

Toni Sacconaghi Got it WRONG, again! Market share is of secondary importance.

Steve Jobs got it RIGHT! Profitability is of primary importance.

Motorola has approximately 21% of the cell phone market share in 2007 and it's LOSING MONEY. Apple has only approximately 3% of the world computer market, yet Apple has the highest profitability of the major computer manufacturers. Apple stock is among the best performing and Motorola stock is among the worst performing. Profitability is better than market share.

Apple isn't looking to sell a laptop for $100, and it sure is not looking to sell a cell phone for $10 either.

Apple's niche is high quality, high performance, high design, with excellent service. It's not looking to compete at the low end by going for market share. Apple is the BMW or Porsche of the cell phone industry, and they are very profitable with only a small share of the market.

Apple doesn't need to have every cell phone service provider in a country sell its products. It only needs ONE good cell phone company to sell Apple products. THAT is the attraction: the people that want quality and service WILL move to that service provider. That is the whole point. That is why the cell phone companies are competing to be the sole iPhone provider: That provider WILL attract the users who want the iPhone. Toni Sacconaghi may be an analyst, but he sure is NOT a marketeer!


Apple's niche is excellent service?? Like refusing to service the IPhones that the company intentionally broke. Period.....sorry zero service for you, poor sucker........
post #78 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyerfanguy@comcast.net View Post

Apple's niche is excellent service?? Like refusing to service the IPhones that the company intentionally broke. Period.....sorry zero service for you, poor sucker........

Did they steal your lunch money too?

Or, did you buy a bag of magic beans that you talked yourself into believing would grow a beanstalk that would take you to the goose that lays golden eggs?

Time to grow up and stop dreaming about fairytales.

Apple should have told you to not stick your head in a bucket of water.
post #79 of 85
'Reality is what it should be' - quite so, but that only applies at the moment of saying it - tomorrows reality, or maybe the reality of two years from now, is still up for grabs.
I think Steve Jobs knows this and has plans for the future. Go figure!

The iPhone, easily the fastest selling smart device ever - and its like the iPod - because no-one did it before.

Apple knows that if the Widgets (Stocks, Weather, Maps) are to be useful, they need fulltime online access, NOT 'when you get to a wifi hotspot'.
Instant Gratification - blame who you want, but thats reality.

It doesnt MATTER that EDGE is slow, because Apple is pointing out a road map for next year, next decade - Full Time Web Access from your iPhone/super device/thing/computer/music player. Gates talked about it in his vapour-ish way - Jobs delivered.

No-one else has DONE this, so reality appears to be as Apple says it should be - and that is why a lot of the 'analysts' DONT get it.
As someone else said here, they seem to think that the iPhone ver. 1.0 is all that its ever going to be. How dumb is that?

OSX really is better than the other OS's on phones/smartphones - and iTunes is the universal connecting software - Win or Mac. Wheres the competition?

Oh you say, theres lots of Windows software - trouble is, no-one is making cross-platform software because they still think that Windows is the only thing that matters.
NOT TRUE ANYMORE.

M$ BIG error - making the hideous zune Windows only. Dont they want apiece of the 130 million iPod market?
Over 30% of college students have Macbooks - but you dont want their business? Dumb.

I think that Jobs wants to BEAT Gates and M$ - thats his plan, and he means to do it with style.
My money is on Jobs to do it - and he may smash the music biz wide open as well - if he hasnt done so already.

If you were offered a job at Apple or M$ - which would you choose? Apple - thats where all the smart people want to work. Who wants to work at a negative place like M$?

The genie is out of the bottle - iTunes, iPhone, music downloads , OSX Leopard, Intel chips, beautiful design, market share growing rapidly.
We can never go back to the bad old world of crappy stuff and crappy software - buy some Apple shares - see their market cap go to $300 billion - and pass M$ in the next 5 years.

Apple is already at 52% of M$ - yet we still hear the 5% market share nonsense - true CONSUMER market share is around 25% if you include iPhone and iPod halo - all those college students will NEVER go back to M$.

Wake up guys - now Apple is THE one to beat!

PS - the Monkeys Paw is a nasty little tale full of superstition and fear - and has NO bearing on reality. Three wishes - give me a frickin' break!
post #80 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by harrywolf View Post

PS - the Monkeys Paw is a nasty little tale full of superstition and fear - and has NO bearing on reality. Three wishes - give me a frickin' break!

So you don't believe in "be careful what you wish for"?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: iPhone
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPhone › Report: iPhone world share limited by revenue deals