Windows XP beats Mac OS X

I installed XP yesterday and I have to say that it has good points and bad ones.

First of all its still a damn mess to configure stuff. There is no centralized place to control such simple things as sounds, colors, etc. Its EXACTLY like 98/ME/2000... its all a pretty skin.

Its also significanly slowed down everything (coming from ME)

On the other hand, the installation was a snap. I backed some stuff up just in case... but when I simply updgraded (no clean installs, no nothing) it kept EVERYTHING. All my bookmarks, custom icons (except My Computer and Network Neighborhood, grrr, still havent figured out how to change those damn icons), sounds, preferences, etc etc etc.

That was quite amazing.

It took a hell of a long time to install (about 40minutes-1 hour) and so far its a mixed ride.

Although, in the end, its still crap MS sh!t and nobody has anything to fear... OS X is much better (ahem.. just get those damn webcam, scanner, etc etc etc drivers working damn you)

So a minor OS update + fancy built in skin = Major Technical Excellence,
Brand new OS + Unix OS + Ease of use + usable compatibility with the old OS = Failure

Oh! it's been awarded by some clueless PC Rag = Sucking up to Billy.

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Mediaman ]</p>

ZO said:

[quote]Its also significanly slowed down everything (coming from ME)
<hr></blockquote>

And the move from 9.X to OSX wasn't?

[quote]
<strong>JFW said:
And the move from 9.X to OSX wasn't?</strong><hr></blockquote>

There's a MUCH bigger difference between the move from OS 9 to OS X than Windows 95/98/ME to Windows XP. XP was an upgraded code base, while OS X was a major freakin' overhaul.


Edited for clariffication

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Gambit ]</p>

I wouldn't worry--they know not what they say--probably the first time they ever used a Mac in their lives.

You guys need to get your facts straight before posting nonsense. The upgrade from Win 95/98/ME to XP is *not* a minor upgrade with an interface tweak. What XP is is basically the next version of Windows 2k, which has descended from NT. It has been given alot of usability fixes to make it appropriate for consumers, but the underlying code base is miles ahead of the previous consumer versions of Windows.

[quote]There's a MUCH bigger difference between the move from OS 9 to OS X than Windows 95/98/ME to Windows XP. XP was an upgraded code base, while OS X was a major freakin' overhaul.

<hr></blockquote>

Depends if your going from 9x to XP or just 2000 to XP.

In the case of 9x/Me to XP, the jump is much more than an "Upgraded Codebase", it's quite on the order of a OS9 -&gt; OSX jump.

[quote]Originally posted by Fran441:
<strong><a href="http://www.pcmag.com/article/0,2997,s%253D25063%2526a%253D18045,00.asp" target="_blank">http://www.pcmag.com/article/0,2997,s%253D25063%2526a%253D18045,00.asp</a>

Windows XP beat out MacOS X for the Award for Technical Excellence in Desktop Software.



That's the one I didn't want to win.

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Fran441 ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's a PC mag what do you expect? XP is nothing new. I can't believe people actually believe the hype.

[quote]Originally posted by Solishu:
<strong>You guys need to get your facts straight before posting nonsense. The upgrade from Win 95/98/ME to XP is *not* a minor upgrade with an interface tweak. What XP is is basically the next version of Windows 2k, which has descended from NT. It has been given alot of usability fixes to make it appropriate for consumers, but the underlying code base is miles ahead of the previous consumer versions of Windows.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes but there is nothing major or anything that would be considered a technological breakthrough in XP that wasn't in Win2k. It's all HYPE.

I haven't used XP, but after reading the site, it basically completey ignores the Mac. Screw Them.

Did you see Michael Dell won "Lifetime Achievment". What a Jack Ass. Try not taking credit for things you didn't invent, like AirPort.

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>

Yeah Mike Dell has been eating a lot of sour grapes lately. Esp since Apple took back the Education market from them.

[quote]Originally posted by Gambit:
<strong>

There's a MUCH bigger difference between the move from OS 9 to OS X than Windows 95/98/ME to Windows XP. XP was an upgraded code base, while OS X was a major freakin' overhaul.


Edited for clariffication

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Gambit ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

funny. years ago one of the big pluses of overhauling the Mac OS was amazingly faster performance

Actually the MacOS was always touted as being better cause it had a better GUI that flowed instead of flickered.

Lots of sour grapes being passed around here as well.

Sorry folks, but as it stands right now XP is a better operating system. It's got far better app support, better compatability with older versions of Windows (I run old-school Wolfenstein in compatability mode, DOS files and all) and it's rock-solid like Win2k.

If you don't like Luna you can turn that off easy enough. Remote Assistance is spectacular, I use it all the time to fix problems with computers at work. There are a hundred different little things that you grow to appreciate as you use it.

OSX has beautiful text rendering when the apps use quartz, I am high jealous of that, but there isn't a whole lot that OSX really beats XP at. I dig the OSX icon sets and options a lot more. The default widgets are far nicer than Luna.

There are also negatives for both, but I won't go into them.

I don't think either one is better than the other. Both are good for certain things. You use the tools you need to get the job done right.

And the sour grapes was about Dell losing the education market to Apple. Not XP vs OS X

I always think Win 2k vs OS X would be more appropriate

I am using XP at work and OS X at home. They are both good in their own way, but I still like OS X better. Two reasons, product activation in XP is invasion of privacy (no matter what MS apologists say) and the Luna interface is Bug Ugly (the 2000 interface is not any better either).

Now that is not to say that XP is not interesting for all the neat doodads that they put in the OS or for the solidness of the OS itself. I was actually somewhat impressed with how well it upgraded windows 98.

But performance on it is actually quite sad. I cannot even get it to play the quicktime trailer for "Fellowship of the Ring" without hiccuping severely the whole time. This is even after rebooting and ending ALL other tasks on the machine. PIII 500, 192 MB ram, and plenty of HDD space. SAD. My iMac 400 plays the same trailer silky smooth under OS X.1.

There are other things as well, but I don't feel like going into them right now.

[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong> I cannot even get it to play the quicktime trailer for "Fellowship of the Ring" without hiccuping severely the whole time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Of course you had to compare using Apple software on a Microsoft OS versus Apple on Apple. Did it occur to you that QuickTime for the PC may not be as well optimized as QuickTime for Mac OS?

Besides that, I wouldn't dare compare a 500 MHz PIII to a 400 MHz G3. Everyone here ought to know by now that 1 Motorolla Hz == ~2 Intel/AMD Hz. Isn't that true from the "Megahertz myth" we so often hear about? Thus, you should be comparing your iMac to an 800 or 900 MHz PC.

[ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>

Quicktime for Windows is a total piece of ass. At least Microsoft writes good apps for Apple's operating system.


XP's activation might suck for some, but that's how they make their money. It's annoying but I can hardly blame them. And it is painless, you'll notice the startling lack of actual complaints regarded activation. The most complaints you hear are from those with no experience with it.

I've used XP on a PIII 550mhz, it was decent speed-wise. I've also used OSX.1 on a 450mhz G3 tower, it was dog slow.

Sine:

Education is Apple's market to lose. Apple has had a stranglehold on that market for over a decade. Dell came up on Apple in education, not vice versa.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Quicktime for Windows is a total piece of ass. At least Microsoft writes good apps for Apple's operating system.

</strong><hr></blockquote>
You've obviously have never used WMP for the Mac Not only does it suck.. there hasn't been a final version of it since 97 I believe, Just a lot of betas. They went from version 6 to version 7 without releasing a final version. And I wouldn't call IE 5 for OS X a great product either. Its slow and clumsy. Office for OS X is doing what basically MS has been doing the past 10 years.. making up it's own GUI rules and forgetting about OS X's. I guess it doesn't matter that it doesn't flow with the rest of the OS ..
<strong> [quote]
XP's activation might suck for some, but that's how they make their money. It's annoying but I can hardly blame them. And it is painless, you'll notice the startling lack of actual complaints regarded activation. The most complaints you hear are from those with no experience with it.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Basically the only people that it's going to hurt are the honest ones that pay for it.
<strong> [quote]
I've used XP on a PIII 550mhz, it was decent speed-wise. I've also used OSX.1 on a 450mhz G3 tower, it was dog slow.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I find it hard to believe 10.1 was dog slow on a 450mhz G4 when it's quit speedy on my 350mhz G3 grover. How much RAM did that G4 have.. 64megs?
<strong> [quote]
Sine:

Education is Apple's market to lose. Apple has had a stranglehold on that market for over a decade. Dell came up on Apple in education, not vice versa.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes and Apple took it back. See you must not remember the big deal ol Mike made it out to be. He was rubbing it in Apple's face. Next time around Apple took it back in a big way.

_________________
Being Politically Correct is retarded.


[ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: Sinewave ]</p>

You Maclots should be damned grateful for Office, it's keeping your platform alive.

WiMP for Mac does suck heinous nutsack. Man I forgot about that abortion of an app. . . *shudder*

[quote]Basically the only people that it's going to hurt are the honest ones that pay for it.<hr></blockquote>

How?

[quote] How much RAM did that G4 have.. 64megs?<hr></blockquote>

First off, it's a G3 tower, not G4. 128MB. Window resizing is a lot better, but "speedy" isn't the word for it.

Even on this Dual450 G4 I use at work OmniWeb or something will hang it and the Force Quit command isn't 1/10th as speedy or reliable as WinXP's task manager.

It's getting faster and I'm hoping that soon it will haul ass, but it's not there yet.

[quote]Yes and Apple took it back.<hr></blockquote>

So Dell comes out of nowhere and snatches it from the reigning king who fell asleep. The king wakes up and sneaks back past and Dell is supposed to be ashamed?

I have no love for Mike Dell. I live in Austin for Christ's sake and I know firsthand how evil Dell can be. My point was that more sour grapes are thrown by the Maclot horde than Mr. Dell could ever dream of throwing.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>You Maclots should be damned grateful for Office, it's keeping your platform alive.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Funny thing is .. in the 4 places I have worked for that used Macs.. not one of then had Office installed
<strong> [quote]
How?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The people who get it illegally wont be dealing with the very WPA that is trying to detract from such things.
<strong> [quote]
First off, it's a G3 tower, not G4. 128MB. Window resizing is a lot better, but "speedy" isn't the word for it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe it's cause I have 512m of RAM. I know XP runs better on 512 than 128.
<strong> [quote]
Even on this Dual450 G4 I use at work OmniWeb or something will hang it and the Force Quit command isn't 1/10th as speedy or reliable as WinXP's task manager.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Omniweb is still a tad slow. Try the new sneaky peaks. They are just as fast or faster than IE. That is a Omniweb thing. not a OS X thing.
<strong> [quote]So Dell comes out of nowhere and snatches it from the reigning king who fell asleep. The king wakes up and sneaks back past and Dell is supposed to be ashamed?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nice spin but Dell was acting like it was a permanent thing. That Apple was going under. That Dell was the new King of Education. Then reality smacked them in the face
<strong> [quote]
I have no love for Mike Dell. I live in Austin for Christ's sake and I know firsthand how evil Dell can be. My point was that more sour grapes are thrown by the Maclot horde than Mr. Dell could ever dream of throwing.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Naw Mike wants to be Steve..He keeps making false claims like Dell being the first laptop shipping with wireless net capabilities. It's sour grapes.

_________________
Being Politically Correct is retarded.


[ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: Sinewave ]</p>

[quote]The people who get it illegally wont be dealing with the very WPA that is trying to detract from such things.<hr></blockquote>

Corporate warezing is the problem, not l33thaX0rGoD on the warez IRC channel.

M$ wants the money that's "lost" when people install the same copy of Windows on 20 different machines in a corporate environment.

[quote]Maybe it's cause I have 512m of RAM. I know XP runs better on 512 than 128.<hr></blockquote>

XP doesn't hog RAM so much if you turn off the eye candy. I have 768 so I leave the eye candy on.

It's as fast as Win2k on non-FisherPrice visual settings. And that's excellent.

[quote]Omniweb is still a tad slow. Try the new sneaky peaks. They are just as fast or faster than IE. That is a Omniweb thing. not a OS X thing.<hr></blockquote>

I have been using the SneakyPeeks.
I haven't come across a hung app that Force Quit handles efficiently. Oh well, it's 20x more stable than OS9.

[quote]Nice spin but. . .<hr></blockquote>

Spin? Has Apple *not* been the undisputed king in education for over a decade?

Dell's focus on education isn't that overwhelming, they sell to corporations. Anyway, it doesn't matter to me either way so long as there are still Macs in the lab for me to use instead of the Dells.

Everyone-

Windows XP is nothing more than 2000 with a new kernel (woopie-wow), Fisher-Price Looks (that annoy me frankly), and 30 new programs that completely ripoff companies such as WinZip and Adobe (the two major companies I could think of). While everyone claims that the 'task manager' is faster on XP, Mac OS X is so stable, (for me OS 9.2 as well) that I never have to use force quit so much that I clock its speeds.

I feel sad for those lackeys out there who claim how Microsoft saves the worls, because its, well not true. I feel sad for those who like the 'features' of XP, yet fail to realize that it only supports Microsoft and no other companies. I use both OS's frequently along with Redhat 7.2 and honestly, between Linux and Mac OS X, a windows box is really not needed. While some people may say that XP is great for a 'revised codebase', it is just another version of Windows which aside from its eye-candy is nothing more than a ripoff of the Mac OS, again.

Bill and his goonies have never come up with anything on their own, they always steal, hence the Antitruct suit still pending in 9 states, with Sun and 2 other major technology companies. If anyone is mad at me for taking this stance... My iBook is telling me that well, thats too bad Good day.

<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

[quote]Windows XP is nothing more than 2000 with a new kernel (woopie-wow), Fisher-Price Looks (that annoy me frankly), and 30 new programs that completely ripoff companies such as WinZip and Adobe (the two major companies I could think of)<hr></blockquote>

How exactly do they rip off WinZip and Adobe?

[quote]While everyone claims that the 'task manager' is faster on XP, Mac OS X is so stable, (for me OS 9.2 as well) that I never have to use force quit so much that I clock its speeds.<hr></blockquote>

Task Manager does a lot more than the Force Quit menu does. I use it to check diagnostics 99.9% of the time. Wolfenstein Beta 1 had a nasty habit of hanging on load, Task Manager pops right up when I hit Ctrl-Alt-Del. When OmniWeb4.1sp10 hangs it takes at least 9-10 seconds before Force Quit comes up.

[quote]I feel sad for those lackeys out there who claim how Microsoft saves the worls, because its, well not true.<hr></blockquote>

Who claimed Microsoft saved the world. Maclots are far more likely to glorify their corporation of choice.

[quote]I feel sad for those who like the 'features' of XP, yet fail to realize that it only supports Microsoft and no other companies.<hr></blockquote>

?
Me using Remote Assistance to administer PCs in my lab is benefiting Microsoft?

Ok, well honestly, that remote desktop connection has allot of security flaws. If you dont believe me check the securityfocus list... It is worse than Swiss cheese, it is insecure as hell. Real administrators use command line because, well it works quicker, which is a benefit of Mac OS X. And yes, their remote junk is aimed at ATT, which made a program called VNC, which Microsoft has explicitly stated this program is supposed to emulate. While this VNC program is free via the GNU software license, it is still a rip off.

Furthermore, look at the built-in zip decompression and photo editing tool (which I must say do suck for their lack of ability to do anything), yet these tools aim to take market share away from WinZip and Adobe (respectively).

As for task manager. Diagnostics and quitting programs are two different things. On Mac OS X, why not use the alert console or some other utility designed to do that? If you want to use diagnostics, then obviously for Mac OS X the force quit feature is not the prime tool to use.

I really do think XP has its good points, as they removed the darn blue screen, so obviously we dont see it, instead the kernel just reloads. Mac OS X is built on XML... Something which is very customizable. Try doing anything with XP, its worthless aside from turning the default child-mode look off.

"Maclots" as you call them are simply people who yes, dont buy into the garbage of Microsoft. Look at companies such as Adobe, which make their programs originally for Mac OS, and why actual developers of any sort use anything other than Windows. Developers use SGI, Sun or MacOS workstations (as an example).

Grover quoting you is hard cause for some reason anytime I hit the quote button only part of your post seems to come up. I guess you HAVE to use the <strong> tags. They need to fix this.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
[QB]
Corporate warezing is the problem, not l33thaX0rGoD on the warez IRC channel.

M$ wants the money that's "lost" when people install the same copy of Windows on 20 different machines in a corporate environment.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That isn't what MS said. After all the "Business" edition doesn't have WPA
<strong> [quote]
Spin? Has Apple *not* been the undisputed king in education for over a decade?

Dell's focus on education isn't that overwhelming, they sell to corporations. Anyway, it doesn't matter to me either way so long as there are still Macs in the lab for me to use instead of the Dells.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes but my point was Mike made it out to be bigger than it was. He was basically saying Dell would be the King from now on.. and that Apple's Education days where numbered. Until that is .. Apple came back and made him look like a moron

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Task Manager does a lot more than the Force Quit menu does. I use it to check diagnostics 99.9% of the time. Wolfenstein Beta 1 had a nasty habit of hanging on load, Task Manager pops right up when I hit Ctrl-Alt-Del. When OmniWeb4.1sp10 hangs it takes at least 9-10 seconds before Force Quit comes up.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, I have Process Viewer hidden all the time and when an app locks up I chose it from the dock and it instantly appears on my screen and I can quit any process I want. Oh, and it also does much more than the Windows Task Manager, so there.

[quote]Originally posted by starfleetX:
<strong>
Of course you had to compare using Apple software on a Microsoft OS versus Apple on Apple. Did it occur to you that QuickTime for the PC may not be as well optimized as QuickTime for Mac OS?

Besides that, I wouldn't dare compare a 500 MHz PIII to a 400 MHz G3. Everyone here ought to know by now that 1 Motorolla Hz == ~2 Intel/AMD Hz. Isn't that true from the "Megahertz myth" we so often hear about? Thus, you should be comparing your iMac to an 800 or 900 MHz PC.

[ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am not stupid, the comaprison is perfectly valid. I have been able to play the Episode 1 teaser trailer under 98 Quicktime with not a frame drop. On my OS 9 box, G4 400 it was actually and sadly quite painful. Under OS X it runs much better, and under XP. . .well it is worse. So Apple improved their OS and MS did what? This is where people start talking aobut how MS purposely is making other competing standards not work as well under XP. NOt saying htis is what is happening here, but it is possible.

WPA = Windows Protection Failure (sorry it doesnt stary with A, but hey...) PA was intended to keep compes of ALL XP (OS, Office, etc...) off warez channels, servers, etc. WPA is a failure. Everyone who wanted an XP product has it.. Really, do you think some dum protection stopped people? Its just another attempt of Microsoft trying to invade peoples' privacy. Companies dont need privacy. Microsoft Sucks. Plain and simple. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

Fred Bear:

[quote]Ok, well honestly, that remote desktop connection has allot of security flaws.<hr></blockquote>

If I was working with nuclear secrets I might be concerned.

[quote]which made a program called VNC<hr></blockquote>

I'm well aware of VNC, I use it on the Macs and non-XP PCs.

[quote]it is still a rip off.<hr></blockquote>

Is VNC a rip-off of Timbuktu? Or PCAnywhere? Or any one of the other dozen apps just like it?

[quote]look at the built-in zip decompression and photo editing tool<hr></blockquote>

.zip is a common format. I don't know anyone who actually paid for WinZip, there were freeware unzippers before XP.
How dare they bundle it with the OS so you don't have to download it!

What Adobe product is their photo-editing tool aimed at replacing?

[quote]As for task manager.<hr></blockquote>

I don't use other utilities in XP because I don't have to. Task Manager takes care of all those things and stays minimized in my system tray displaying processor usage.

[quote]Developers use SGI, Sun or MacOS workstations (as an example).<hr></blockquote>

heh

That's funny.
Developers don't use Windows. . . heh

Sine:

[quote]After all the "Business" edition doesn't have WPA<hr></blockquote>

You have to buy 250+ licenses to get the versions sans WPA.

Force Quit sucks in OS X. Takes forever to come up.... when it does come up that is. Windows is near instant.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
You have to buy 250+ licenses to get the versions sans WPA.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
And this is what most companies get too. And this is the one that is going to be warezed.

[quote]And this is what most companies get too. And this is the one that is going to be warezed.<hr></blockquote>

By warez fiends who would hack it anyway. It won't be casually copied anymore, that's what M$ was aiming for.

Do you think your average user knows where to get hacked copies?

Umm windows combatbilty has a much easier time then mac. Classic and carbon must require a recode, while windows only means a few missing supports. Think about that.

For me WinXP lost big time. Lack of support and all that "window certified driver, or your system explodes" crap can't be made any blunter.

I had to completely wipe a HD of XP because a install of soundmaster, rebooted to a windows explorer using 98% system resorces-i.e. can't even move the mouse. Can't be fixed as far as I know when xp doesn't even allow you to over write a system.

How's that for compatbilites? At least I can force quit classic in OSX.

Guess the old $50 technical support rule still holds. Format C: drive.

~Kuku

if You know, VNC is freeware... It also was started earlier than any of those program were coded. If You might not be using Nuclear Secrets, but have you heard about the cookie bug in IE6? Go to <a href="http://www.securityfocus.com" target="_blank">www.securityfocus.com</a> Microsoft cannot figure out how to patch it, and it eventually allows one to rip information from any sub directory in the /Windows folder and allows one to get all cookies. I think its pathetic that Microsoft scorned the company who released the information for this exploit 2 weeks after Microsoft failed to even mention the problem to anyone. And sorry to say, but most programmers do not use native windows If boxes to code, all of them I know use a Sun box or a Unix variant.

I laugh at all the dumb Windows users who think that Microsoft isnt controlling them from behind... think about the 'Microsoft Virtual machine' e.g. rip off of Java... If nine US states along with the European Union think Microsoft is a bad company, in terms of their business practices, then um, is any Mac user out of line for saying that too?

I think its so dumb that the Windows users gloat about a improved 'task manager'... so what? you have a good utility to make sure Windows isnt messing w/ your PC or when your PC crashes? Oh, and if you are too ignorant to know what Adobe products are being railroaded, then sorry, that really does say something about you. Even though paint and the internal viewer arent close to Adobe, at all, they are still aimed at the same market. Think about Digital cameras... They distribute software which is now not needed by XP, yet that software company just got screwed...

Karl Marx belied that capitalism was, in its self, destructive. Bill Gates and his gooiness are perfect examples of this point. PC users are always too dumb to actually know that an Intel and PPC processor cannot be compared, (different architectures maybe?). Oh-well. I use XP when I have to, otherwise long live OSX.

About WPA... Think about MP3 utilities such as Kaazaa or Morpheus. I dont know one person, even 'dumb' users, who dont have a warez'ed XP copy. The dumb idea of WPA failed. Company employees warez, as most humans do... F. It was a good try, but it was a crappy way of invading people's privacy. Just because you need 250+ copes doesnt mean one of those 250 people doesnt rip it... Search a P2P file sharing utility. XP is everywhere.

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Fred Bear ]</p>

Computing is not a religion. But truth be told any form of woindows is nothing but DOS with an interface. If you dont believe me take a look in your sys32 folder. Notice the file extensions, .com .bat .ini these are dos extensions. 95,98,nt and the rest are just hype built on dos. Ever wonder why all other OS manufacturers gave up on dos? UNIX! <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
power, style and world class. Any OS not built on it is'nt worth a damn. let the microsucks have their delusions.
An Apple a day keeps microsucks away!

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: mortal ]</p>

Uhh...